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What ever happened to V2G tech?

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I've always wondered why the original Alan Cocconi inverter speed controller used on the Tzero that had vehicle to grid interface wasn't used in the Roadster and future offerings. This AC Propulsion controller that was developed for California's Zero Emissions Mandate was rated at 150 kW, more than enough to handle household loads during a power outage.

Any insight from the excellent knowledge pool here at TMC?

Wouldn't it be comforting that as long as your Tesla is plugged in at home your immune from power outages? Just view it as a UPS for your home.
 
If I remember right, they moved away from the integrated architecture after the very early roadsters for safety reasons - the original didn't have as much isolation between the low and high voltage sides?

Safety and isolation is the reason you can't have the second vision you described, either. If you allow the car to feed power back to a standard household wiring setup, it will push the power back out onto the grid, to the neighbor's house and the local transformer - and through the transformer to the power line they are trying to fix.

V2G isn't dead, and I think it may become common in the future, but it needs dedicated controls to work safely, and in your house you would need wiring changes to build a protected subpanel behind an anti-islanding transfer switch (so that when the grid dies, the switch automatically opens and you are only powering the things on the protected subpanel.)
Walter
 
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If I remember right, they moved away from the integrated architecture after the very early roadsters for safety reasons - the original didn't have as much isolation between the low and high voltage sides?

Safety and isolation is the reason you can't have the second vision you described, either. If you allow the car to feed power back to a standard household wiring setup, it will push the power back out onto the grid, to the neighbor's house and the local transformer - and through the transformer to the power line they are trying to fix.



V2G isn't dead, and I think it may become common in the future, but it needs dedicated controls to work safely, and in your house you would need wiring changes to build a protected subpanel behind an anti-islanding transfer switch (so that when the grid dies, the switch automatically opens and you are only powering the things on the protected subpanel.)
Walter

Wouldn't the basic transfer relay switch that is used for standby generators handle this? Cocconi had everything packaged as one unit, inverter, speed control, and supercharger. Beef up your home charging circuit and Cocconi's design would also give home Supercharging.
 
Wouldn't the basic transfer relay switch that is used for standby generators handle this? Cocconi had everything packaged as one unit, inverter, speed control, and supercharger. Beef up your home charging circuit and Cocconi's design would also give home Supercharging.

The AC Propulsion AC-150 drive system i.e. Alan Cocconi's design includes a 'reductive' charger with 18kW power. This was better than any other in-car charging solution, till the Model S and dual chargers pushed it to 20kW, but it's hardly Supercharging (90-120kW). And no home's electrical connection could provide 90-120kW of power anyways.

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There's a difference between supporting V2G and being able to power a home as an "island" that is disconnected from the grid. The two are related in that in both cases, AC power flows out of the vehicle. But there are big differences: the former requires signalling and control between the grid and the car, but the grid still supplies a consistent voltage and AC frequency. The latter not only requires an anti-islanding transfer switch (as Saghost mentioned) but also the ability of the car to maintain its own 60Hz signal and consistent voltage level, in the face of highly-irregular loads (refrigerator or AC kicking on/off for example).
 
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Tom Gage, former CEO of AC Propulsion, spoke about V2G at TMC Connect 2014. He's now the founder and CEO of EVGrid, which I suppose should have the latest on what's going on.

Doug, thanks for that link, I wondered what Tom Gage was up to. He and I share the same vision that wide spread adoption of EVs could be beneficial to the grid instead of taxing it. I've always believed if power demands was a flat line throughout a 24 hour period instead of the peaks and valleys we have now, electricity would be cheaper for the consumer at the same time being more profitable for the producers. With Internet controlled charging and peak shaving (power from EV's batteries back to the grid), the power companies could create this straight line demand when there are enough EVs.

Do you know what Alan Cocconi is up to? I always felt he was the brains behind the development of that drive system.

On the EVgrid web site......

WHEN DRIVING IT'S A CAR, WHEN PARKED IT'S A POWER PLANT. THIS IS V2G.

Can electric transportation take us from the oil age to the sun age?
 
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Grid-tie inverters (including V2G) are expected to monitor the grid power and immediately shut off if they sense the grid is being disconnected.
Power companies value the safety of people working on their lines and ( also in the case of downed power lines) want to be able to turn off the power and have it stay off. Something that fed power into grid lines when the grid was down would be unacceptable.

If you want to have a static storage or vehicle inverter power your house, then, yeah, it needs to be set up so that you are an "island" and there is no chance you are energizing the lines leaving your property.

(Much of this is already mentioned here, I am just stating it a different way.)

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Just noticed a related thread:

AC coupling 'using grid-tie array during utility failure'

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Do a forum search on 'Grid' and you will find a lot of threads.
 
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the issue of delivering power to the grid is relativly simple; the poco can on demand disable it, via communications, they have advanced powerline coms and of course the internet. It could be made to work "safely". Of course the biggest issue is Tesla doesn't allow it for obvious reasons right now (extra cycles when they are providing the warranty)
 
I think grid-tie inverters just piggyback on top of the AC waveform coming from the grid. So if the grid stops oscillating the power, then the inverter just doesn't add to it.

Standalone "Island" inverters generate their own AC waveform so it would conflict with the grid if you attempted to join them together.

"There can only be one!"
 
I think grid-tie inverters just piggyback on top of the AC waveform coming from the grid. So if the grid stops oscillating the power, then the inverter just doesn't add to it.

Standalone "Island" inverters generate their own AC waveform so it would conflict with the grid if you attempted to join them together.

"There can only be one!"

Well, there are battery backup inverters that can also grid-tie safely, like the Schneider/Xantrex XW series.
 
Well, there are battery backup inverters that can also grid-tie safely, like the Schneider/Xantrex XW series.

Yeah, I think they call that "grid-interactive". Traditional style would have a transfer switch so you could disconnect your grid tie inverter, and switch to an off-grid inverter (that generates it own AC wave) when you need to run off-grid, usuall from a battery bank. I gather that there are some "hybrid" smart inverters that can act as grid tie, or switch to "island mode" when needed. My point was to just mention that these things need to have two distinct modes depending if they are grid tied or off-grid. Many devices are only for one purpose or the other. Some people assume that if you have solar and and inverter that you can operate off grid, but that is usually not the case.
 
I think there are a lot of reasons why V2G hasn't become mainstream. Many of them are political, protecting business model, etc.

I just don't see it that way.
To be worth it, you need lots of electric cars.
If you have lots of electric cars, you have lots of cheap batteries.
If you have lots of cheap batteries why repurpose batteries that you can't guarantee will be hooked up, when you can have dedicated batteries you can put wherever you need?
From the utility point of view, a lot of the benefits could be gained just with controlled charging (no feed in) and their own batteries.
 
Honestly, what happened is that no one wanted to work with me to get it done. Large groups of Model S could have been doing all sorts of cool things for years now, but no one seemed to care and I don't know how to write the necessary apps. It breaks my heart every time I think about it.
 
Honestly, what happened is that no one wanted to work with me to get it done. Large groups of Model S could have been doing all sorts of cool things for years now, but no one seemed to care and I don't know how to write the necessary apps. It breaks my heart every time I think about it.

What do you actually need help with? There are zillions of software engineers here like me, and this could be something fun. Explain what you need in terms of programming.
 
In case anyone else has an interest in V2G, a new report has been published detailing the state of V2G, but it's a $2,500 report. If anyone has access to it, would love to hear your thoughts.

Here is a press release about it, which gives you an idea of what is in the report:

DALLAS, April 6, 2015 /PRNewswire/ --


ReportsnReports.com adds Global Grid-to-Vehicle (V2G) Market 2015-2019 research report that says ability of vehicle-to-grid systems to meet high electric load demands has resulted in the immense growth of the Global Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) Market, which is expected to post a CAGR of 47.68% from 2015-2019.


The Global Vehicle-to-grid market is divided into the following segments based on application: Electric Vehicles, Technology, and Infrastructure. The number of charging stations in the Chinese and European markets will grow at a rapid rate, given the cost reductions and entrepreneurial development in the regions. Load levelling is one of the most essential functions of V2G technology and helps balance loads between periods of high and low demand.


This latest report Global Grid-to-Vehicle (V2G) Market 2015-2019 also emphasizes government incentives and subsidies on electric vehicle (EV) charging stations and the increasing sales of EVs that are expected to contribute to the growing number of charging stations worldwide.


V2G technologies enable the usage of electric vehicles as distributed storage devices. The stored power can be utilized to feed the electrical system during periods of peak demand or for use in homes and offices. V2G is useful in times of sudden surges in electrical load, and as a back-up in case of emergencies.


The report on Global Vehicle-to-grid Market for 2015-2019 has been prepared based on an in-depth market analysis with inputs from industry experts. The report covers the Americas and the APAC and EMEA regions; it also covers the Global Vehicle-to-grid market landscape and its growth prospects in the coming years. The report also includes a discussion of the key vendors operating in this market.


Companies like AC Propulsion, Boulder Electric Vehicle, Coritech Services, EV Grid, Corinex, Enerdel, Ford Technology, Honda, NextEnergy, NRG Energy as well as Pacific Gas and Electric Company are discussed and/or mentioned in this research available for purchase at http://www.reportsnreports.com/Purchase.aspx?name=358796 .


Questions on the vehicle-to-grid market (V2G) that this research helps answer include what will the market size be in 2019 and what will the growth rate be? What are the key grid-to-vehicle market trends? What is driving the V2G market? What are the challenges to market growth? Who are the key vendors in this market space? What are the market opportunities and threats faced by the key vendors? What are the strengths and weaknesses of the key vendors?


List of Exhibits provided in Global Grid-to-Vehicle (V2G) Market 2015-2019 research report include:


Exhibit 1: Market Research Methodology


Exhibit 2: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market 2015-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 3: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Application 2014


Exhibit 4: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Application 2019


Exhibit 5: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Application 2014-2019


Exhibit 6: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by V2G Electric Vehicles 2014-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 7: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Technology 2014-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 8: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Infrastructure 2014-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 9: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Geographical Segmentation 2014


Exhibit 10: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Geographical Segmentation 2019


Exhibit 11: Global Vehicle-to-Grid Market by Geographical Segmentation 2014-2019


Exhibit 12: Vehicle-to-Grid Market in the Americas 2014-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 13: Vehicle-to-Grid Market in the APAC Region 2014-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 14: Vehicle-to-Grid Market in the EMEA Region 2014-2019 (US$ billion)


Exhibit 15: Government Incentives to Increase Purchase of Electric Vehicles


Exhibit 16: Sales of PHEV and EV in US


Exhibit 17: AC Propulsion: Products and Services


Exhibit 18: AC Propulsion: Geographical Presence


Exhibit 19: Coritech Services: Product Segmentation


Exhibit 20: EV Grid: Key Services


Another report on Robot Cars and Trucks: Market Shares, Strategies, and Forecasts, Worldwide, 2015 to 2021 says that these markets beginning to develop in 2015 will rise to $868 million by 2021. Growth is a result of various moves toward autonomous vehicles that park themselves, provide automated steering, are used as test vehicles, are used as mapping vehicles, and that provide driver alerts but fall sort of complete robotically operated car vehicles. Market driving forces relate primarily to the need for increased safety and personalization for autos. Car manufacturers are positioning with robot car models to meet demand at the high end. Many robot vehicle car vendors are making automation for personal vehicles and truck a reality. Read more at Robot Cars and Trucks: Market Shares, Strategies, and Forecasts, Worldwide, 2015 to 2021 : ReportsnReports
.


Market leading companies like Google, Ford, BMW, Tesla, Daimler AG / Mercedes-Benz, Fuji, GM, Kairos, Nissan, Toyota, Volkswagen / Audi as well as market participants like Allen Vanguard, Audi, BAE Systems, Boston Dynamics, Bosch Group, Evatran Group, BMW, Buick Group, Chrysler / Dodge, Daimler AG/Mercedes-Benz, ECA Robotics, Elbit Systems, Evatran Group, Ford / Lincoln, Fuji Heavy Industries / Subaru, General Dynamics, Google Self-Driving Car, GM / Cadillac, iRobot Revenue, Kairos Autonomi, Kongsberg, Jaguar Land Rover, Lockheed Martin, Mesa Robotics, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Qualcomm, Thales Group, Toyota / Lexus, Vecna Technologies, Volkswagen / Porsche, Volvo, Visteon and WiTricity are covered in this research available for purchase at http://www.reportsnreports.com/Purchase.aspx?name=363201 .


Explore more reports on the automotive market at Automotive Market Research Reports at ReportsnReports .


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