Starting up the car, put the reverse, creep mode on, and the brake does not work

yoyo · Jan 30, 2015

P85D, and I have it happen twice already. First time happened two days ago, then again today.
What happened was:
1) I have the car set to creep mode on - has been like this after taking delivery (about a month now)
2) Get into the car, the dashboard took a few seconds to wake up, foot on brake (now, I do not remember if I stepped on the brake before the dashboard is fully up or not), then flipped to REVERSE
3) The car is in reverse, and started moving backward (as creep is on). My foot is still on the brake, but the brake does not work at all. I can not press it down at all
4) in the moment of panic, I tried to flip the stalk to Neutral, and the brake worked (my foot was still pressing really hard on it), and car stopped.

First time it happened, it took me a few seconds to realize what was happening and react, and exact sequence was a little fuzzy.

Today, I immediately reacted to flip upward the stalk, and I am sure it showed Reverse mode when the car stopped (but it went through the Neutral position when you flip up)

I just called Tesla and described all these to them, and they will call me back.

Anyone else experienced this? Is it because of timing or what?

Also a heads up - it could be extremely dangerous -- I was very fortunate that both times nothing behind me...

Thank you!

jerry33 · Jan 30, 2015

I have creep mode off and have never experienced that. Did you try rebooting?

yoyo · Jan 30, 2015

I did not try reboot. This does not happen every time. These are the only two times that happened.

Tesla just called me that they are sending me a loaner and picking up the car tonight to diagnose. Have to say this is amazing service!

Gizmotoy · Jan 31, 2015

yoyo said:
I did not try reboot. This does not happen every time. These are the only two times that happened.

Tesla just called me that they are sending me a loaner and picking up the car tonight to diagnose. Have to say this is amazing service!

Not surprising. They're not going to screw around with complaints of brakes not working on their just-released flagship model.

yoyo · Jan 31, 2015

quick update: just got a call back. They did notice "anomaly in the log". They are keeping the car until at least Monday to have a brake engineer taking further look. The current assessment is that it could be firmware related (but not conclusive yet until Monday), and will install new firmware on Monday.

I asked further about the firmware, and was told that a new 6.1 firmware will be rolling out starting Monday - I was not given a concrete answer about whether it will contain the torque sleep... fingers crossed though as it sounded like a possibility

scottm · Jan 31, 2015

I thought model S brakes were mechanical and fail safe. You press, the calipers squeeze. Even with no power assist they squeeze, albeit maybe harder to press the pedal with no boost. But enough leg into it and you stop. Brakes should always override accelerator pedal. Full mash on both pedals and brakes win. Toyota, and how many others have gone through this... ?

Solarwind · Jan 31, 2015

@YOYO I have had the same exact thing happen with the exception I went forward. nothing in front of me thank goodness. Creep was on car started to move pressed on brake nothing. I pressed extremely hard and the brake finely came alive and jerked to a stop. Has not happened since, that was 3 days ago. I was wondering if I put the car in gear to soon after start, but that got my attention. P85D 64710

yobigd20 · Jan 31, 2015

yoyo said:
The current assessment is that it could be firmware related

that is disturbing to say the least... one major screw up like this with firmware could sink Tesla.

SamusAranX · Jan 31, 2015

yobigd20 said:
that is disturbing to say the least... one major screw up like this with firmware could sink Tesla.

Yeah, it would be like the fires except there would *actually* be a safety concern this time.

Solarwind · Jan 31, 2015

I am wondering if the start software is releasing the park brake before starting the regular brake? I know from now on I will be in on hurry to put the car in gear.

Cyclone · Jan 31, 2015

scottm said:
I thought model S brakes were mechanical and fail safe. You press, the calipers squeeze. Even with no power assist they squeeze, albeit maybe harder to press the pedal with no boost. But enough leg into it and you stop. Brakes should always override accelerator pedal. Full mash on both pedals and brakes win. Toyota, and how many others have gone through this... ?

I remember reading in one of the other threads that with the Autopilot enhancements, Tesla has shifted the MS to an electromagnetic actuator rather than a traditional actuator. This is so the Autopilot could have better direct control over the brakes. I would imagine that this also means that your scenario no longer applies. While hopefully this is just two isolated incidents, perhaps they should put in a local code override on the breaking system so that the software could never override a physical press on the pedal? That way, any "bug" in the firmware for automatic control would always be overridden by having your foot on the break. This, however, would also mean that if Autopilot, Cruise Control, or some other driver assist function is engaged, the brake pedal will override whatever such system is trying to do. This, in and of itself, is likely not a problem because all these driver assist functions are probably set to disengage on any brake press.

yoyo · Jan 31, 2015

I suspected it was a timing issue as well (except that once it got into the situation, the brake did not work for at least a few seconds until I shifted to neutral. Note that the accelerator was never pressed and the foot never left brake pedal, only creep mode is on).
When the dashboard takes a few seconds to boot up, I often put my foot on the brake before it is fully up, and it was never a problem except these two cases. I wonder if there was a specific timing on how quickly I shifted the car to reverse or what.

In any case, now, I wait until the dashboard is fully up; press and release the brake to turn the car on, then press brake again to shift into reverse.... just for the sake of it. Hopefully I will learn more on Monday.

The technician dropping off the loaner P85 also showed me that press and hold the parking button will engage the emergency brake... another thing to remember, besides shifting into neutral -- for emergency situations.

Solarwind said:
I am wondering if the start software is releasing the park brake before starting the regular brake? I know from now on I will be in on hurry to put the car in gear.

- - - Updated - - -

Solarwind, I think you want to call Tesla as well and try to identify the date/time when it happened - so that they are aware this problem is not just one car. Apparently this stuff is logged and they can tell something happened from the log. I wonder if something went wrong in the .113 firmware affecting the new electromagnetic braking system.

It sounded to me that the new firmware to be released on Monday contains a fix for this issue (though I am not 100% as they also want to have brake specialist check everything on Monday).

Solarwind said:
@YOYO I have had the same exact thing happen with the exception I went forward. nothing in front of me thank goodness. Creep was on car started to move pressed on brake nothing. I pressed extremely hard and the brake finely came alive and jerked to a stop. Has not happened since, that was 3 days ago. I was wondering if I put the car in gear to soon after start, but that got my attention. P85D 64710

Solarwind · Jan 31, 2015

YOYO thanks maybe I should do that in the morning, or should I wait until Monday? I am not worried that it is much of a problem now I know about it. I am sure I stepped on the brake to start the car and put it in gear about the same time. The car moved about 6 to 8 feet before I had control again. My guess is this would not be noticed if creep is off. When we drive the car from now on we will be sure it has be on for several seconds before putting in gear.

scottm · Jan 31, 2015

Cyclone said:
I remember reading in one of the other threads that with the Autopilot enhancements, Tesla has shifted the MS to an electromagnetic actuator rather than a traditional actuator. This is so the Autopilot could have better direct control over the brakes. I would imagine that this also means that your scenario no longer applies. While hopefully this is just two isolated incidents, perhaps they should put in a local code override on the breaking system so that the software could never override a physical press on the pedal? That way, any "bug" in the firmware for automatic control would always be overridden by having your foot on the break. This, however, would also mean that if Autopilot, Cruise Control, or some other driver assist function is engaged, the brake pedal will override whatever such system is trying to do. This, in and of itself, is likely not a problem because all these driver assist functions are probably set to disengage on any brake press.

I guess this is another good reason that I am thankful to have a classic S. Brakes that always work, with or without firmware bugs.

I telling ya, this autopilot fantasy should take a second seat at Tesla for a bit. Get the X out get the 3 going. Make the brakes work, and failsafe.

EarlyAdopter · Jan 31, 2015

I had this happen last Thursday morning, around 8:50am (if Tesla wants to check more logs).

Car had just woken up, I was in a hurry to leave so I pressed on the brake to turn the car on and put it into gear really quick, just as soon as it woke up. I don't have creep enabled.

I put it in reverse, tapped the accelerator to get moving backwards, then quickly got on the brake as we have a super steep driveway. This particular time it felt like there was a block of wood under the brake pedal. I did however have some manual stopping power, I just had to really press down hard on the pedal. I think it was failsafe. Only lasted a second. Once I lifted my foot off the pedal and pressed down again the brake boost assist was there and everything was normal from then on.

Only time that's happened. I chaulked it up to a race on the brake booster initializing on wake up and the availability to put the car in gear. They need to add an extra second of delay on wake up or add a system interlock to not allow the car to be put into gear until the brake booster reports ready.

jerry33 · Jan 31, 2015

EarlyAdopter said:
I put it in reverse, tapped the accelerator to get moving backwards, then quickly got on the brake as we have a super steep driveway. This particular time it felt like there was a block of wood under the brake pedal. I did however have some manual stopping power, I just had to really press down hard on the pedal. I think it was failsafe.

Having had to drive on failsafe for several hundred miles (not a Tesla), I can assure you that you really have to stand on the brakes to make them work. The pressure required is far more than any non-power-brakes car I've driven. Mostly you have to hope that nothing comes up quickly.

yoyo · Jan 31, 2015

This issue looks to be more wide spread and affects no-creep as well. It sounds definitely related to how quickly we shifted into "gear" after booting up. I will be sure to tell service center on Monday. I am guessing the delay/interlock could be the firmware fix. Tesla needs to roll this out really quickly.

All it takes is one unlucky guy/gal to make it a really bad day for everyone.

Solarwind · Jan 31, 2015

There is a fellow on the other Tesla Forum with this issue similar delivery date to mine 12/30/14

bigdomer · Jan 31, 2015

Same problem here.

Matias · Feb 1, 2015

So if I understood, problem is, that you can drive the car before brake booster is functional? That is very bad bug, wonder how they let it happen.

Starting up the car, put the reverse, creep mode on, and the brake does not work

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