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Model X Price higher than announced?

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I

Ingenieur

Member
Aug 31, 2013
191
6
Deutschland
#1
I was thinking about potential Model X price, they said 5-10%, but if you add Dual Drive and 2 Kid seats, its already 7,5K or almost 10% for S85, now MX is supposed to be bigger, have more standard features then just Kids seats and AWD, so i think 15% is more likely.

On the other hand, if you look at BMW prices in US 3/X3 and BMW 5/X5 have almost same price, so maybe im wrong.
In Germany you can get much higher discounts on Sedans then on SUV at the dealer, maybe the "same" prices reflect it, so MSRP is not quite comparable to Tesla prices that are basicly written in stone.
 
#2
Ingenieur said:
I was thinking about potential Model X price, they said 5-10%, but if you add Dual Drive and 2 Kid seats, its already 7,5K or almost 10% for S85, now MX is supposed to be bigger, have more standard features then just Kids seats and AWD, so i think 15% is more likely.

On the other hand, if you look at BMW prices in US 3/X3 and BMW 5/X5 have almost same price, so maybe im wrong.
In Germany you can get much higher discounts on Sedans then on SUV at the dealer, maybe the "same" prices reflect it, so MSRP is not quite comparable to Tesla prices that are basicly written in stone.
Click to expand...
I hope you are wrong because 15% higher than an 85 will put it out of my price point. Elon said single digits so I hope that is true.
 
#3
Ingenieur said:
I was thinking about potential Model X price, they said 5-10%, but if you add Dual Drive and 2 Kid seats, its already 7,5K or almost 10% for S85, now MX is supposed to be bigger, have more standard features then just Kids seats and AWD, so i think 15% is more likely.

On the other hand, if you look at BMW prices in US 3/X3 and BMW 5/X5 have almost same price, so maybe im wrong.
In Germany you can get much higher discounts on Sedans then on SUV at the dealer, maybe the "same" prices reflect it, so MSRP is not quite comparable to Tesla prices that are basicly written in stone.
Click to expand...

They said it would be 5-10% over a 'similarly equipped S', so my assumption is that since the X will have dual motors, you then need to compare it to the 'similarly equipped' S, or the dual motor option. Same with the kid seats. How can you NOT add those both to the cost of the S that you're comparing it to?

Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.
 
#7
I am saying they benchmarked the price against 'similarly equipped', knowing that the S would evolve (as it has). They never quoted a price, only gave it as relational.

That meant (to me) that if the cost of the S went up, then the X would be benchmarked against that. When they announced that the X would only be sold as AWD, my immediate assumption was that when they announced S AWD pricing (which is the 85D), I'd have a better idea of what the X would run. I never assumed I'd get AWD as a freebie and they'd only compare price against a car manufactured over 2 years ago.

I thought it was pretty clear.
 
#8
bonnie said:
That meant (to me) that if the cost of the S went up, then the X would be benchmarked against that.
Click to expand...
This was the main thing I didn't anticipate. When Musk said that, I figured I'd pay extra for racks and interior lighting rather than a moonroof and be out the door for under $90k (pre-tax credit). Then came the bump in base price. Then the options consolidations. For the sake of tempering my expectations I try to be realistic, and it is hard now to imagine getting an X85 out the door for under $90k. I don't think this will be a problem for Tesla, but if a basic non-performance setup winds up being six figures, it will be a dealbreaker for people like me who've never owned more than a Subaru and are already stretching to make this possible. My hope is that in the worst case there will be some used S85Ds available by then.
 
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#9
Bonnie is right in how Tesla made their claims, but I agree that it is all a bit misleading. With each delay, time passes and the cost of the S goes up in general and because of the options being added. So while in the end it may indeed be 10-15% above a Model S at the time of the release, the price of the Model S at the time of release is significantly higher than it was at the time of the reveal and last year (when the X was originally supposed to launch)
 
#10
I guess it just depends on where you come from. Benchmarked claims (to me) are far more precise than saying 'well it will be this, unless we have delays and other costs go up and then we'll have to raise the price blah blah blah'. Benchmarking it against the cost of a similarly equipped Model S has allowed me to follow price changes, etc., and anticipate the price of the X. I can see how it might feel misleading to those who aren't used to benchmarked claims. And I can also see how Tesla would have felt they were being very precise in their wording. That's how I would have worded it, with no intention of misleading, but rather with the intent of giving full information.

Of course costs go up, whether they delivered on the original schedule or not. And so did the money I've had invested while I wait. The wait has definitely been in my favor, financially.
 
#11
bonnie said:
I guess it just depends on where you come from. Benchmarked claims (to me) are far more precise ...
Click to expand...

I can't agree more. I think for them it was very bold to even provide such precise guidance, and I have felt my expectations have been clearly set.
My pricing heuristic has been:

1- Mentally design a model X based on Model S options
2- Design similarly equipped Model S and mentally adjust for price increases until X release date
3- Add guesstimate costs for options not available / applicable on model S (e.g. Exterior Wood Paneling, 1.21gw Flux capacitor). Keep hoping they keep supercharger access for free for Model Xs.
4- Add 10%
5- Pray that tax incentives and other EV perks don't run out before purchase date.
6- Go get the ramen noodles
 
#12
I agree with the idea that the price differential being benchmarked against a Model S, but I think a reasonable observer in 2012 would have concluded that the single-digit percentage differential was already inclusive of the X's more complex drivetrain and not an unknown and unannounced dual-motor Model S option. The purpose of Tesla's statement was to convey useful information to the public in 2012. It would have been disingenuous and I dare say dishonest to release a benchmark that could only be calibrated by Tesla insiders. The public had no reason to assume or even consider that "comparably-equipped" would mean a dual-motor Model S. I suppose it could be used to construe plausible wiggle-room now after the fact but I hope it doesn't come to that.
 
#13
bonnie said:
I guess it just depends on where you come from. Benchmarked claims (to me) are far more precise than saying 'well it will be this, unless we have delays and other costs go up and then we'll have to raise the price blah blah blah'. Benchmarking it against the cost of a similarly equipped Model S has allowed me to follow price changes, etc., and anticipate the price of the X. I can see how it might feel misleading to those who aren't used to benchmarked claims. And I can also see how Tesla would have felt they were being very precise in their wording. That's how I would have worded it, with no intention of misleading, but rather with the intent of giving full information.

Of course costs go up, whether they delivered on the original schedule or not. And so did the money I've had invested while I wait. The wait has definitely been in my favor, financially.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but once again we're not thinking like the majority of people who heard that comment (reposted most likely). If they had said "at the time of release", sure, but the way it was worded (probably intentionally) had folks looking a what the S cost now and doing calculations.

So yeah, factually correct, but I'd put money on it being intentionally vague as to have folks calculate more favorably.

Nubo said:
I agree with the idea that the price differential being benchmarked against a Model S, but I think a reasonable observer in 2012 would have concluded that the single-digit percentage differential was already inclusive of the X's more complex drivetrain and not an unknown and unannounced dual-motor Model S option. The purpose of Tesla's statement was to convey useful information to the public in 2012. It would have been disingenuous and I dare say dishonest to release a benchmark that could only be calibrated by Tesla insiders. The public had no reason to assume or even consider that "comparably-equipped" would mean a dual-motor Model S. I suppose it could be used to construe plausible wiggle-room now after the fact but I hope it doesn't come to that.
Click to expand...

You ninja'd me to it, but yes, I agree. Even on this board most folks thought the X would be out before an AWD Model S, so why would even they (members of this board, and thus, far more informed than the average joe) think to calculate what an AWD S would cost? (not even mentioning that back then the X was also possible of being 2WD)
 
#14
Model X Price higher then announced?

It's real clever, tell the people "single digit" and then increase through dual motor 2 digits, so you can add 20% in the end.

That is the thing with announcements: life happens between now and then.

I would personally prefer, we were wrong here and that tesla is concentrating on the strength of surprising people and not becoming the next announcement-champion. To much disappoints on that way.

Intern high aims are useful, but in public you sell your credibility.
 
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#15
There was no deceit that I can see - remember, at the time of the X launch, X was being offered as both standard and AWD.

I hear you when you say you think this was vague - but please hear me when I say that for some of us, that sounded like a very precise statement. Nothing vague about it, whatsoever. Again, I think it just depends on your background. And my assumption here is that the people making that statement were intending to give pretty precise 'directional guidance' regarding pricing & not something finite that you could act on at the time, such as take a loan out in preparation.

I sincerely don't see how people can fault them on this. I just ran it by someone here at the house and they looked at me, waiting for the rest of the question. "Nope, that's it. What does 'will be priced about 10% higher than a similarly equipped Model S' mean to you?" ... "Is that a trick question??" ... "Nope." Again, we all have different backgrounds. I understand people heard it differently. But to assume there was an intent here to deceive seems totally unfair, considering others of us read it the way it was intended & found it to be precise, not vague.
 
#16
bonnie said:
There was no deceit that I can see - remember, at the time of the X launch, X was being offered as both standard and AWD.


I hear you when you say you think this was vague - but please hear me when I say that for some of us, that sounded like a very precise statement. Nothing vague about it, whatsoever. Again, I think it just depends on your background. And my assumption here is that the people making that statement were intending to give pretty precise 'directional guidance' regarding pricing & not something finite that you could act on at the time, such as take a loan out in preparation.


I sincerely don't see how people can fault them on this. I just ran it by someone here at the house and they looked at me, waiting for the rest of the question. "Nope, that's it. What does 'will be priced about 10% higher than a similarly equipped Model S' mean to you?" ... "Is that a trick question??" ... "Nope." Again, we all have different backgrounds. I understand people heard it differently. But to assume there was an intent here to deceive seems totally unfair, considering others of us read it the way it was intended & found it to be precise, not vague.
Click to expand...


The issue I see is right there in your question. Where did this 10% figure come from? I don't feel "intentionally deceived" but I do see moving goal posts. Elon said a small single digit percentage and now look how casually people are alluding to a 10-15% expected bump. I figured "similarly equipped" referred to battery and performance/standard versions. What does "similarly equipped" even mean in a world with towing and ski hitches and seating for seven adults, but no pano roof? It seems like if you want an X with any of the things that make it an X, you're going to pay a good bit more than a "small single digit percentage" for it. I don't think Tesla was being deceitful or "clever" here as someone else put it; I just think they gave more financial optimism than is due for those of us who hoped to get in on the low end.

I say all of this fully aware it is speculation and Tesla could happily surprise me.
 
#17
If Elon wants to make electric vehicle more main stream he should be doing everything to make the next few vehicles something that more people can afford. If the model X is substantially more than the model S he is going in the wrong direction. As was said single digits because it has 2 motors, but everything else should be similar. Still hope it will be under 100k.
 
#18
robby said:
The issue I see is right there in your question. Where did this 10% figure come from? I don't feel "intentionally deceived" but I do see moving goal posts. Elon said a small single digit percentage and now look how casually people are alluding to a 10-15% expected bump. I figured "similarly equipped" referred to battery and performance/standard versions. What does "similarly equipped" even mean in a world with towing and ski hitches and seating for seven adults, but no pano roof? It seems like if you want an X with any of the things that make it an X, you're going to pay a good bit more than a "small single digit percentage" for it. I don't think Tesla was being deceitful or "clever" here as someone else put it; I just think they gave more financial optimism than is due for those of us who hoped to get in on the low end.

I say all of this fully aware it is speculation and Tesla could happily surprise me.
Click to expand...

The 10% figure was mentioned at the speech with Governor Brown at the Model X release. IIRC he said ABOUT 10%. This was when there were only a couple of prototypes available. Nobody can hold them to that figure.

Can any manufacturer tell you what the price of a new model car will be 3-4 years away? I think not. Too many things can change.......
 
#19
bonnie said:
I sincerely don't see how people can fault them on this. I just ran it by someone here at the house and they looked at me, waiting for the rest of the question. "Nope, that's it. What does 'will be priced about 10% higher than a similarly equipped Model S' mean to you?" ... "Is that a trick question??" ... "Nope." Again, we all have different backgrounds. I understand people heard it differently. But to assume there was an intent here to deceive seems totally unfair, considering others of us read it the way it was intended & found it to be precise, not vague.
Click to expand...

Cute, but I think you know that's misleading. You're asking them a question based on what we have now. It's not the same as someone having been told that statement 3 years ago and having to match it with current numbers. It's definitely an apples to oranges thing there.

I get that YOU may have anticipated it, but I think it's clear from the posts here that not everyone else did -- and once again, that's a problem (clear communication that is) that Tesla needs to work on.

If the car comes out priced x% higher than a current S, then it IS a price increase in my mind, because had the car come out on time, it would likely be significantly cheaper than it will be once we see it in ~8 months (assuming they don't move the goalposts again).
 
#20
AnOutsider said:
Cute, but I think you know that's misleading. You're asking them a question based on what we have now. It's not the same as someone having been told that statement 3 years ago and having to match it with current numbers. It's definitely an apples to oranges thing there.

I get that YOU may have anticipated it, but I think it's clear from the posts here that not everyone else did -- and once again, that's a problem (clear communication that is) that Tesla needs to work on.

If the car comes out priced x% higher than a current S, then it IS a price increase in my mind, because had the car come out on time, it would likely be significantly cheaper than it will be once we see it in ~8 months (assuming they don't move the goalposts again).
Click to expand...

So what I typed here was the shorthand version. I didn't mislead in asking the question.

The only point I'm trying to make here is that while people are jumping on the bandwagon of 'oh here we go again, Tesla needs to fix communications', in this case the most they should be accused of is not knowing that not everyone is used to hearing things put that way. It's a very standard engineering approach & these are engineers we're dealing with. I get that lots of people don't understand that wording. But I don't think that people are willing to assume there was no deliberate attempt to be vague or misleading. And that's a shame.

In any case, until we see the actual pricing and can compare, this is all just noise.
 
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