Winter Range Anxiety - P85D , can I keep this car?

sandpiper · Dec 23, 2014

So, having read the posts in the other thread about reduced P85D range, I've become very concerned about the car that I'm taking delivery of in a week.

With the exception of local travel, virtually all of my runs either start or end with a 300km (187 mile) run between Sudbury and a new SC in Barrie, on a fairly fast highway - 70-75 mph. And of course I'm in Canada, so it can get pretty cold and travelling without heat is not an option. By reducing speed a bit, by the old (increased from P85) numbers, this appeared doable in all but the worst of conditions. But with with a 15% reduction in range, it becomes doable in only the best of conditions.

Without this run, the car becomes an expensive toy for summer travel and local driving. That's not really of interest to me. I'm seriously considering cancelling and either waiting to see what the S85 real range is, or giving up on Tesla until the 110s come out.

I'd appreciate some opinions from any experienced owners out there, on whether I should give up on the P85D for now.

Thanks! :crying:

andrewket · Dec 23, 2014

sandpiper said:
So, having read the posts in the other thread about reduced P85D range, I've become very concerned about the car that I'm taking delivery of in a week.

With the exception of local travel, virtually all of my runs either start or end with a 300km (187 mile) run between Sudbury and a new SC in Barrie, on a fairly fast highway - 70-75 mph. And of course I'm in Canada, so it can get pretty cold and travelling without heat is not an option. By reducing speed a bit, by the old (increased from P85) numbers, this appeared doable in all but the worst of conditions. But with with a 15% reduction in range, it becomes doable in only the best of conditions.

Without this run, the car becomes an expensive toy for summer travel and local driving. That's not really of interest to me. I'm seriously considering cancelling and either waiting to see what the S85 real range is, or giving up on Tesla until the 110s come out.

I'd appreciate some opinions from any experienced owners out there, on whether I should give up the the P85D for now.

Thanks! :crying:

I'd wait for some of us to post more data. You might also ask your local SC if they can loan you a P85D and try the trip before you buy. You have a legit concern. I'm about to begin my trip as well.

sandpiper · Dec 23, 2014

Thanks Andrew.

My issue, of course, is that my car arrives in Toronto in a week. I have to decide to either pick it up or cancel. The supercharger in question is mid-install right now, and I suspect it will be operational in mid January. So, a test run isn't possible right now.

Logic seems to say that I should cancel, wait a few months and see how things look.

Good luck on your trip. Some good news on the range would be great!

stevezzzz · Dec 23, 2014

Is there a chance another SpC will be built between Sudbury and Barrie anytime soon? Unfortunately for your particular case, I don't think P85D real-world range numbers will be sorted out in time for your pending delivery, though I will be very surprised (and disappointed) if it ends up being as much as a 15% range reduction at highway speeds.

In the end, slowing down 10-15 mph is always good policy when range is in doubt: it makes a huge difference.

sandpiper · Dec 23, 2014

Hi Steve

No real chance of a mid-point SC any time soon. It's a fairly lightly travelled route. The only reason that one is going into Barrie, is that Barrie is the gateway to "cottage country" for the mass exodus of Torontonians heading north out of the city on summer weekends.

I find myself absolutely dumbfounded that Tesla could be claiming, so loudly, that the P85D had more range than the P85 and yet we have the opposite. It makes no sense to me.

stevezzzz · Dec 23, 2014

sandpiper said:
Hi Steve

I find myself absolutely dumbfounded that Tesla could be claiming, so loudly, that the P85D had more range than the P85 and yet we have the opposite. It makes no sense to me.

Agreed, sandpiper. Which is why we really need to wait for better data, but don't have the luxury.

dweeks · Dec 23, 2014

stevezzzz said:
Is there a chance another SpC will be built between Sudbury and Barrie anytime soon? Unfortunately for your particular case, I don't think P85D real-world range numbers will be sorted out in time for your pending delivery, though I will be very surprised (and disappointed) if it ends up being as much as a 15% range reduction at highway speeds.

In the end, slowing down 10-15 mph is always good policy when range is in doubt: it makes a huge difference.

A Supercharger in Pointe Au Baril would be great (lol vbg) !

randompersonx · Dec 23, 2014

As much as I shudder saying it, this is clearly a major issue for enough people here that it probably warrants emailing Jerome and finding out the real answer.

There re was an earlier email posted here which explained that the 85d was the range model and it was expected that the p85d lost some range. I don't think anyone expected a 242 epa that also seems impossible to achieve.

efusco · Dec 23, 2014

187miles should be doable in all but the worst conditions. Are there any "bail out" locations close to each end such as RV parks or J1772 chargers? It may be that every rare once in a while you'll need to stop for a top up for an hour or so to assure you reach your destinations safely. I really only start getting nervous when the distance is over about 210 miles and it is quite cold out.

sandpiper · Dec 23, 2014

dweeks said:
A Supercharger in Pointe Au Baril would be great (lol vbg) !

If they're ever serious about permitting folks to go across the country it will be pretty much required. Either there, parry sound or the French river.

- - - Updated - - -

efusco said:
187miles should be doable in all but the worst conditions. Are there any "bail out" locations close to each end such as RV parks or J1772 chargers? It may be that every rare once in a while you'll need to stop for a top up for an hour or so to assure you reach your destinations safely. I really only start getting nervous when the distance is over about 210 miles and it is quite cold out.

Yes in one direction. No in the other. Headin north, the last 100 miles is pretty much rocks, trees, moose and Mosquitos!

Krugerrand · Dec 23, 2014

But as the conditions worsen along that drive, wouldn't you be naturally slowing down for them anyway? You wouldn't be driving 70-75mph except on those really good winter weather days and along that stretch of highway, you're not getting many of those if I recall correctly.

roblab · Dec 23, 2014

To me, the answer is so obvious. There is no reason to bail on the world's absolute best car ever. You have nit picked one small area, range, and made it into a no go simply because in your head you are amazingly unable to slow down 5 miles an hour. As if this is the deciding factor for you to keep from moving into the future of transport.

You know the technology is new, and advancing. You know that sooner than later there will be another supercharger en route. You will be "inconvenienced" into travelling 65 instead of 70, maybe going in the slow lane, ONLY until you learn how to get the most range out of your charge. You will find how to drive gently when you need the extra range, and how the cruise control smooths out power use. After a few, a very few runs, you will up your speed. You won't need to race anyone, because you already know you can beat anyone out there, and they, too, have to pull into a gas station at the end of this same run, and fork over at least $25, while your fill up is free.

Sure, you could say that you tried, but you just couldn't see how you could stop using oil, stop polluting, stop using noisy, leaky, stinky, vibrating, out dated cars, because you couldn't see how to make it 184 miles in an electric. And all your friends would agree. EVs just aren't ready for prime time yet. Unless you are a visionary. Unless you are willing to pull a little bit yourself. Unless you have a bigger reason to drive electric than just getting down the road.

I hope you do it. It might have an inconvenience or two. But the rewards are HUGE.

Rockster · Dec 23, 2014

Wonderfully stated, roblab.

shelbri · Dec 23, 2014

When conditions warrant, slow down to 55mph if range is a concern. You'll likely do better than rated range at that speed. For the few times you need to do so, you'll love the car all other times.

Also - keep in mind that driving fast just to get to a charger to wait an hour or two is counter-productive if driving 10mph slower gets you there without the time needed for in-route charging.

Lastly, I'd check with the SC about your happiness guarantee. If you confirm after taking delivery that you don't like the car because it can't make the range just return it (you'd be out depreciation and any sales tax paid.).

My guess is you'll love it and figure out a way to make it work until superchargers are more thoroughly built out in. Canada.

403portside · Dec 23, 2014

roblab said:
To me, the answer is so obvious. There is no reason to bail on the world's absolute best car ever. You have nit picked one small area, range, and made it into a no go simply because in your head you are amazingly unable to slow down 5 miles an hour. As if this is the deciding factor for you to keep from moving into the future of transport.

You know the technology is new, and advancing. You know that sooner than later there will be another supercharger en route. You will be "inconvenienced" into travelling 65 instead of 70, maybe going in the slow lane, ONLY until you learn how to get the most range out of your charge. You will find how to drive gently when you need the extra range, and how the cruise control smooths out power use. After a few, a very few runs, you will up your speed. You won't need to race anyone, because you already know you can beat anyone out there, and they, too, have to pull into a gas station at the end of this same run, and fork over at least $25, while your fill up is free.

Sure, you could say that you tried, but you just couldn't see how you could stop using oil, stop polluting, stop using noisy, leaky, stinky, vibrating, out dated cars, because you couldn't see how to make it 184 miles in an electric. And all your friends would agree. EVs just aren't ready for prime time yet. Unless you are a visionary. Unless you are willing to pull a little bit yourself. Unless you have a bigger reason to drive electric than just getting down the road.

I hope you do it. It might have an inconvenience or two. But the rewards are HUGE.

You are missing the point entirely. We don't need a debate about EVs vs ICE in this thread. What we need is to figure out if Tesla sold something different than what they marketed to us. I am committing to $250K worth of Tesla product in 12 months and I 100% expect that the claims they made about range hold true. Else we will have a widespread problem with many unhappy owners (among many who are already unhappy with the seat problems, bad communication, delays). Using this thread as one data point, it doesn't seem like one single owner has reported that their P85D is more efficient than their P85, even on the exact same route.

efusco · Dec 23, 2014

sandpiper said:
Yes in one direction. No in the other. Headin north, the last 100 miles is pretty much rocks, trees, moose and Mosquitos!

Well there you go....lasso a moose (or a mosquito in Canada) to pull you the rest of the way home!!

MacLeodMX · Dec 23, 2014

I've done Toronto - Sault Ste Marie (700km) several times in my P85. You have to use the Sun County Highway chargers ( like the one in Parry Sound) for now. Plan for a longer day. It takes me 12 hours with charging for what usually would be a 7 hour drive. It certainly is a much more pleasant drive than the time pressure you put on yourself in an ICE. Superchargers will come to the Trans Canada eventually. Having visited 65 different super chargers earlier this year I can definitely say they will be worth the wait for long distance traveling.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney · Dec 23, 2014

If you're thinking the headline EPA range drop is scary, you should be reassured by the EPA numbers:

mpge ratings: city/highway/combined
S85: 88/90/89
P85D: 86/94/89

In other words, according to the EPA ratings, the P85D is no less efficient than the S85 overall, and is actually 4% more efficient on the highway than the S85. So it would appear that you'll be OK, and in adverse conditions will want to drive a little slower anyway, and steadily on the highway to allow the car to operate the motors efficiently (maybe, where possible, doing some "driving with load" allowing speed to drop uphill, and to increase downhill).

But of course, there's the usual "know your Level 2s" advice: be prepared to stop at a J1772 on the way in extremes or severe conditions like a long traffic hold-up.

bonnie · Dec 23, 2014

MacLeodMX said:
I've done Toronto - Sault Ste Marie (700km) several times in my P85. You have to use the Sun County Highway chargers ( like the one in Parry Sound) for now. Plan for a longer day. It takes me 12 hours with charging for what usually would be a 7 hour drive. It certainly is a much more pleasant drive than the time pressure you put on yourself in an ICE. Superchargers will come to the Trans Canada eventually. Having visited 65 different super chargers earlier this year I can definitely say they will be worth the wait for long distance traveling.

And remember you'd only need to add a few extra miles for insurance - not stopping for an extended period of time to completely top off the battery. An extra 30 or 40 minutes at a Sun Country 70amp charger could make all the difference between worrying if you're going to make it and driving with confidence.

gavine · Dec 23, 2014

The heater uses a lot of electricity when the battery is cold-soaked, but once the battery warms-up, the heater will draw heat from the battery and use a lot less electricity to heat the cabin. Also, if its that much of a concern, why not wear your coat and maybe a ski cap while driving and turn the heat down a little.

It's funny (and understandable) how much range anxiety people have BEFORE they own this car. I have had sleepless nights worrying about it before my car came, wondering if I made a mistake buying it. Now that I've had the car for 6 months (10K miles), I haven't had one iota of range anxiety.

The other nice thing is that the range estimate on the dash is quite accurate and displaying the wH/mile grid is also comforting because you know what you're using and can tell that the estimate is accurate.

Winter Range Anxiety - P85D , can I keep this car?

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