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Winter Range

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S

sandpiper

Active Member
Sep 25, 2014
2,833
2,323
Ontario, Canada
#1
I've been following the threads about reduced P85d range in the other forum sections with a lot of concern.

Other than local travel, every other trip of mine ends or starts with a 300 km run from the Barrie supercharger to Sudbury or the reverse Based on the early numbers this should have been doable in all but the worst conditions in winter. Now I'm worried that we've been sold something not quite up to the task.

For me, if I can't do that leg, the car becomes an expensive toy. That's not what I signed up for.

With a week before delivery, I'm very concerned, and debating about cancelling.

Opinions?
 
#2
Cold feet?

Range mode and taking precautions you won't have a problem. I regularly go that distance without range mode in the winter in the north east US without issue.
I'm going on two years in my S85, slight range degradation, and michelin ice x on 19s.
 
#3
sandpiper said:
I've been following the threads about reduced P85d range in the other forum sections with a lot of concern.

Other than local travel, every other trip of mine ends or starts with a 300 km run from the Barrie supercharger to Sudbury or the reverse Based on the early numbers this should have been doable in all but the worst conditions in winter. Now I'm worried that we've been sold something not quite up to the task.

For me, if I can't do that leg, the car becomes an expensive toy. That's not what I signed up for.

With a week before delivery, I'm very concerned, and debating about cancelling.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

I don't do a lot of 300km trips on the winter, but I think if you're willing to slow down a little it shouldn't be a problem. I'll let Doug_g and Mcfadernya (going from memory) chime in though.
 
#4
anthony said:
Cold feet?

Range mode and taking precautions you won't have a problem. I regularly go that distance without range mode in the winter in the north east US without issue.
I'm going on two years in my S85, slight range degradation, and michelin ice x on 19s.
Click to expand...

In Sudbury everything gets cold!

No... I'm good with it, if the D gets the same range as the P85. The extra was a bonus. But I'm reading reports of 10 to 15 pct LESS, which becomes a real issue.
 
Last edited:
#5
sandpiper said:
In Sudbury everything gets cold!

No... I'm good with it, in the D gets the same range as the P85. The extra was a bonus. But I'm reading reports of 10 to 15 pct LESS, which becomes a real issue.
Click to expand...

I haven't been reading those threads, but is anything actually confirmed? First problem, how do you compare accurately the D vs. non-D range? Would have to be under same conditions, etc. Second, they're probably just going by the projected range, or is it actual odometer distance?
 
#6
mnx said:
I don't do a lot of 300km trips on the winter, but I think if you're willing to slow down a little it shouldn't be a problem. I'll let Doug_g and Mcfadernya (going from memory) chime in though.
Click to expand...

I've done a 300 km run in horrible weather: -20C, blizzard conditions and arrived with a good safety margin. You do have to be very careful in extreme conditions like this:

  • Preheat the car while plugged in to 240V power for a full hour
    • Range mode OFF! (Otherwise it limits preheat.)
    • Use the remote app to start the preheat an hour before departure.
    • Crank the cabin heat up nice and toasty
    • After 30 minutes it will automatically shut off - hit it again.
    • Important: this will preheat both the cabin and the battery pack, but only if you use the remote app to do it.
    • If you can do this while the car is protected inside a garage, that's even better. Anything to help it warm up.
  • Once you start driving, turn DOWN cabin heat as low as you can tolerate
    • Doesn't hurt to wear warm clothes!
  • Crank up the seat heaters as HIGH as you can tolerate
    • Seat heaters take negligible power
    • If you can keep toasty with the seat heater you'll minimize cabin heat usage, which does take lots of power!
  • Turn ON Range Mode
    • Range Mode limits cabin heating power. You can do the same thing simply by turning down the cabin heat.
    • As far as I can tell Range Mode doesn't really help that much if you keep the cabin heat down. But it's a good thing to use it if you're pushing distance.
    • Just remember to turn it OFF when preheating because it is counter-productive for that.
  • Drive SLOWLY. Try to go 80 kph if the traffic will allow. Don't go over 90 kph.
    • Slower is better because it reduces aerodynamic drag, which is the dominant effect at highway speeds.
    • Better to drive slowly at the start, and then speed up if you have spare power
  • If you can, drive behind a large truck.
    • Don't get right up his butt for safety reasons. Yes closer is better in theory, but don't do something dangerous. Maintain a safe following distance.
    • Simply being behind a truck will reduce aerodynamic drag. This is even more important in the winter when the air is denser.
  • Use your Energy App and Navigation to keep track of range
    • Set Energy App to 10 km and AVERAGE mode. The "Projected Range" will give you a very good estimate of how far you can drive
    • Use the Navigation to see how far you have to go
    • Maintain a buffer of AT LEAST 30 km
    • If that buffer starts shrinking, slow down
    • If you have lots of spare range you can speed up a little, or use a little more heat
  • If you get into trouble, SLOW DOWN
    • The earlier, the better
    • Slowing down is more effective than turning off cabin heat. Reduce speed 5 kph and stay toasty.
    • You can eke out the distance if you do it early. If you wait until you're in trouble nothing will save you except plugging in. Or a flatbed.

Another thing to note - despite all the preheating the car will initially take more power. That's because the drive train is cold. Once it warms up the heat pump will kick in to warm the cabin, and you'll see the cabin heat power draw drop dramatically.
 
Last edited:
#7
According to the EPA numbers, the P85D has better highway mileage than the P85, so I'd say it's 99% a non-issue. Buy several of the adapters so that you can charge anywhere (Dryer plug, welding shop, etc.) if you run short. And follow Doug's advice.
 
#8
As Bonnie said definitely check on a 70A Sun Country station on your route. Or even donate one of their stations in the exact spot you want it at if you can find a host willing to install it.
 
#9
dsm363 said:
As Bonnie said definitely check on a 70A Sun Country station on your route. Or even donate one of their stations in the exact spot you want it at if you can find a host willing to install it.
Click to expand...

This might be a consideration.

Doug_G said:
I've done a 300 km run in horrible weather: -20C, blizzard conditions and arrived with a good safety margin. You do have to be very careful in extreme conditions like this:

  • Preheat the car while plugged in to 240V power for a full hour
    • Range mode OFF! (Otherwise it limits preheat.)
    • Use the remote app to start the preheat an hour before departure.
    • Crank the cabin heat up nice and toasty
    • After 30 minutes it will automatically shut off - hit it again.
    • Important: this will preheat both the cabin and the battery pack, but only if you use the remote app to do it.
    • If you can do this while the car is protected inside a garage, that's even better. Anything to help it warm up.
  • Once you start driving, turn DOWN cabin heat as low as you can tolerate
    • Doesn't hurt to wear warm clothes!
  • Crank up the seat heaters as HIGH as you can tolerate
    • Seat heaters take negligible power
    • If you can keep toasty with the seat heater you'll minimize cabin heat usage, which does take lots of power!
  • Turn ON Range Mode
    • Range Mode limits cabin heating power. You can do the same thing simply by turning down the cabin heat.
    • As far as I can tell Range Mode doesn't really help that much if you keep the cabin heat down. But it's a good thing to use it if you're pushing distance.
    • Just remember to turn it OFF when preheating because it is counter-productive for that.
  • Drive SLOWLY. Try to go 80 kph if the traffic will allow. Don't go over 90 kph.
    • Slower is better because it reduces aerodynamic drag, which is the dominant effect at highway speeds.
    • Better to drive slowly at the start, and then speed up if you have spare power
  • If you can, drive behind a large truck.
    • Don't get right up his butt for safety reasons. Yes closer is better in theory, but don't do something dangerous. Maintain a safe following distance.
    • Simply being behind a truck will reduce aerodynamic drag. This is even more important in the winter when the air is denser.
  • Use your Energy App and Navigation to keep track of range
    • Set Energy App to 10 km and AVERAGE mode. The "Projected Range" will give you a very good estimate of how far you can drive
    • Use the Navigation to see how far you have to go
    • Maintain a buffer of AT LEAST 30 km
    • If that buffer starts shrinking, slow down
    • If you have lots of spare range you can speed up a little, or use a little more heat
  • If you get into trouble, SLOW DOWN
    • The earlier, the better
    • Slowing down is more effective than turning off cabin heat. Reduce speed 5 kph and stay toasty.
    • You can eke out the distance if you do it early. If you wait until you're in trouble nothing will save you except plugging in. Or a flatbed.

Another thing to note - despite all the preheating the car will initially take more power. That's because the drive train is cold. Once it warms up the heat pump will kick in to warm the cabin, and you'll see the cabin heat power draw drop dramatically.
Click to expand...

All good suggestions. As anybody would be, I'm a bit grumbly, about doing away with some of the basics (like cabin heat) or a reasonable travelling speed that could be had in a vehicle a 10th of the price. Sigh. I hope the information we're getting about the P85D range is wrong.
 
#10
Driving the Model S is such a pleasure on road trips... it's worth a little trouble. You are being something of a pioneer for the technology, so I guess you have to get into that spirit.

Most of the time this won't be an issue. If it's above freezing you won't have to even think about it.
 
#12
rapoport3a said:
@Doug_G, does preheating the cabin from the phone app keep the heat going after the specified temperature in the car is reached? At or slightly below freezing, it doesn't take long to reach even 32°C in there.
Click to expand...

It works the same way that setting the temperature in the cabin does. There's not a different mechanism to control temperature--change temperature on the App and when you get in the car the temperature in the car will be set the same.
 
#13
@Sandpiper

You'll be fine. Your first few trips of 300km will be stressful, but after a few you will understand your cars limitations better and you will even start to push it a bit. Just follow the rules outlined above.

I routinely travel 200 miles (321km) between my house and the Normal SC in the winter and make it usually with less than 5 miles of range. I like to push it so I get maximum speed. In fact on a recent trip, I arrived with "Charge Now" on the dash. I don't recommend that, that was a bit too stressful even for me. When its 8 degrees F (-13 C) out that usually means driving 55 mph (88 kmh) that sucks but I always make it. This is just one of those early adopter penalties we have to deal with. But I knew I would have to make that compromise until the SC network got rolled out more fully.

BTW: We've done the trip in both my S85 and my husbands P85 with no problem. Note: we are both cars are running 19s.
 
#14
I'm just guessing, but I think in most cases, P85D drivers are "enjoying the acceleration" just a little too much...thus sacrificing range...fine to do if range is not a concern for the day's drive.

With a car that is so much fun to drive, it does take some discipline to drive with a "range mentality". As Doug_G points out, there are a lot of things one can do to achieve better range...you just need to plan ahead, and drive with "range discipline" to pull it off...
 
#15
The point of the extended preheat was to put as much heat into the battery pack as possible. The pack heater can draw as much as 6 kW so that's a pretty heavy range penalty. Having the cabin nice and toasty is also good because the cabin heater can also take 6 kW at full power.

If you hop into a fully cold soaked car at -20C and start driving, it will pull 12 kW at first just for the heaters! That's like driving 70-80 kph without even moving. The preheating minimizes that extra penalty. I would recommend a minimum 30 minute preheat for a long trip; a full hour may be overkill but I think it's prudent to get the battery and cabin nice and toasty before pushing the range in winter.
 
#16
Liz G said:
@Sandpiper

You'll be fine. Your first few trips of 300km will be stressful, but after a few you will understand your cars limitations better and you will even start to push it a bit. Just follow the rules outlined above.

I routinely travel 200 miles (321km) between my house and the Normal SC in the winter and make it usually with less than 5 miles of range. I like to push it so I get maximum speed. In fact on a recent trip, I arrived with "Charge Now" on the dash. I don't recommend that, that was a bit too stressful even for me. When its 8 degrees F (-13 C) out that usually means driving 55 mph (88 kmh) that sucks but I always make it. This is just one of those early adopter penalties we have to deal with. But I knew I would have to make that compromise until the SC network got rolled out more fully.

BTW: We've done the trip in both my S85 and my husbands P85 with no problem. Note: we are both cars are running 19s.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'll give it a go and see what happens. If I decide that it's not practical, I'm sure that the prices on used P85Ds will hold up for a bit!
 
#19
There was a post on the P85D tracking thread point to a tweet by Elon... There is a software update which will bring the P85D into the P85+ range. Perhaps this is the 'normal' mode Elon spoke of at the launch (Normal, Sport and Insane modes).

Elon just tweeted: "Software update to achieve max efficiency (going to full idle on 2nd motor) is not out yet. Range of P85D should then closely match P85+."​


 
#20
He also tweeted "85D has higher range than 85 when using the same tires. Sport tires have better handling, but 3% to 5% range impact. Tradeoff is worth it :)"

However I don't think he was considering Canadian winters!
 
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