S85, P85, or P85D -- How Fast Is Fast Enough?

Skotty · Nov 11, 2014

Today I thought I would make a brief post about performance. I think some people are starting to lose perspective on how fast the Tesla Model S is. So lets take a step back and do a quick comparison using something from my own history.

I'm one of those people who thinks he needs a high output V8 muscle car to enjoy driving. Personally, I've always preferred Ford Mustangs. I've owned several of them throughout the years.

The first V8 I was able to get my hands on was a used 1986 Mercury Capri 5.0 -- Mercury's variant on the Mustang back then.

1986 5.0 Mustang/Capri: 0-60 in 6.3 seconds, quarter mile 14.6 seconds

By 1999, I was finally able to buy myself something truely remarkable, a brand new 1999 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra. This was the top-end limited production Mustang of the time, with independent rear suspension for the first time ever and a fancy DOHC V8.

1999 Ford Mustang Cobra: 0-60 in 5.3 seconds, quarter mile 13.7 seconds

And finally, in 2011 Ford took the Mustang to a whole new level with a brand new high tech 5.0 DOHC V8 of the likes never seen before. I had one for awhile and it was insane. It is one of the fastest "every man" cars ever built.

2011 Ford Mustang GT 5.0: 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, quarter mile 13.0 seconds.

And just to top it all off -- I never owned one of these -- but in 2013 Ford had a special version of the Mustang with a heavily supercharged V8 named the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500. I saw one on the Ford lot and wondered who would ever buy such a vehicle. The sticker was over $65,000...for a Mustang. Probably the fastest accelerating Mustang ever built.

2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500: 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, quarter mile 11.5 seconds.

Now think to yourself -- this crazy guy buying V8 Mustang muscle cars -- do I really feel the need to be faster than this guy with my family sedan?

Now lets compare to the Model S.

2013 Tesla Model S85: 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, quarter mile 13.7 seconds.

We haven't even gotten to the performance models yet, and already you can match my old 1999 Mustang Cobra. Remember, the Cobra was a step above the GT, the best of the best back then. Not fast enough? Maybe order the S85D, it's faster.

2013 Tesla Model P85: 0-60 in 3.9 seconds, quarter mile 12.4 seconds.

You've now bested the 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 with it's wicked high tech 5 liter V8. No family sedan is supposed to keep up with that kind of muscle. But the P85 outruns it and even gives the cuckoo crazy Shelby GT500 a runs for it's money. And only someone the likes of Jay Leno owns a Mustang like the Shelby.

Still not fast enough? Seriously? Okay then, I guess there is the P85D now. The Shelby GT500 will be looking at tail lights. The P85D can match a McLaren F1. Something you have probably never seen in real life that you only catch a glimpse of on Top Gear or an episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, or whatever show replaces that these days.

Most people sneer at muscle car drivers like myself and mutter something about why someone would need so much speed. And here with Tesla, a S85 is already matching a muscle car. And there are now 3 faster options as well, the S85D, the P85, and P85D. The last of which runs toe to toe with supercars that only hollywood movie stars can afford to drive.

People, these Tesla cars are fast! If you really just want that much speed, then go for it. But don't mutter under your breath about my slower Mustang GT V8. And if you are only worried about besting the annoying distracted Toyota Camry at the stop light or approaching up the highway you are merging onto, just remember that you are already way beyond what you need with a non-performance Model S.

Enjoy your speed. I hope to join you one day.

jerjozwik · Nov 11, 2014

this is EXACTLY why I am going to do everything I can to pay the 15k [ish] difference between the 85d and the p85d. its such an amazing technical wonder.

I have track day car that I have spent much time and energy to make "fast". its hot, very noise and very uncomfortable. the p85d would destroy it in a with just a tap of the pedal. granted my miata would kick but in the corners, but I loath driving it to work. the p85d will still be nice and comfy.

mesalum · Nov 11, 2014

I tossed and turned for a few nights since the D announcement. I was contemplating changing my P85 order to a P85D. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds is good enough for me.

Thanks for the interesting read and perspective.

rcc · Nov 11, 2014

Having owned a 1986 Ford Mustang GT and after that BMW 3-series cars (with the 3 liter, inline 6 engines), I have to point out that your analysis understates the power of the Model S.

In traffic, the instant torque of the S means that the S is moving when the Mustang driver is downshifting and spinning up the engine to make a move. By the time the Mustang is ready to roll, the S is already there.

WarpedOne · Nov 11, 2014

Everything has its reasons:

green1 · Nov 11, 2014

rcc said:
Having owned a 1986 Ford Mustang GT and after that BMW 3-series cars (with the 3 liter, inline 6 engines), I have to point out that your analysis understates the power of the Model S.

In traffic, the instant torque of the S means that the S is moving when the Mustang driver is downshifting and spinning up the engine to make a move. By the time the Mustang is ready to roll, the S is already there.

I know 0-60 is the accepted standard of measurement, but in the city you never get to 60, and I bet that these cars beat almost anything in the 0-30 range that actually matters most of the time. I'd love to see THAT comparison!

Higgs · Nov 11, 2014

mesalum said:
I tossed and turned for a few nights since the D announcement. I was contemplating changing my P85 order to a P85D. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds is good enough for me.
Thanks for the interesting read and perspective.

when the Model S was first introduced/delivered a couple years ago, there were SO many discussions on this forum and tesla.com about whether the power of the P85 was worth it or necessary, over the regular 85. everyone made the (very valid) point that the S85 is already very quick, and the power of the P85 is almost pointless.

i've had a P85 for about 1.5 years, and just today i floored it a couple times and I am more amazed at the power than ever. it is violent and almost more than the senses can handle.

now the P85D has 700hp and torque? 0-60 in 3 seconds? that will absolutely be unusable power!

but i'm getting the P85D anyway. the speed/acceleration increase is not the main reason why. not even top 3. my reasons:

1 - suspension/handling upgrade: after i got a P85+ as a loaner car once, i never really looked at my P85 the same way again. P85 is great in a straight line (the air suspension feels like a magic carpet ride) but feels absolutely ponderous on a curvy road next to the + package. i fell in love with how light the P85+ felt, how the body-roll disappeared. i went deep into discussions with Tesla soon afterwards to do a + retrofit. it would have cost upwards of $23k and the service center was NOT very excited to do it (even at that price). and yet, i STILL thought about doing it! P85D will have the + suspension built in, probably improved even further, and that's what i look forward to most, actually.

2 - the AWD will drastically lower my P85's tendency to spin the back wheels under full acceleration (which leads to all the traction systems coming in and ruining the fun). with nearly 700hp, AWD is almost required, but i think it will have a big impact in making the car's immense power more usable and will probably feel as if it's defying the laws of physics! more traction in snow and wet too, obviously.

3 - Autopilot features. will make the next two years of software updates a LOT of fun. also makes it a safer car.

4 - ok... now the power upgrade.

as truly unnecessary as it is, the curiosity is killing me.

5 - new brakes. new really really good brakes.

6 - new seats. i'm assuming they feel better.

7 - efficiency/range is improved. even if it's just a little bit.

so back to the point, yes all Teslas are fast. but more importantly, fast isn't what makes a Tesla a Tesla. the truly special moments i have driving it are often cruising with the windows down at 35mph. it's the completely silent, totally at-one-with feeling of the electric, one-pedal drivetrain that make the Tesla what it is. it is magic the day you get the car and it's even more magical years later.

Saghost · Nov 11, 2014

green1 said:
I know 0-60 is the accepted standard of measurement, but in the city you never get to 60, and I bet that these cars beat almost anything in the 0-30 range that actually matters most of the time. I'd love to see THAT comparison!

Not necessarily - which was rcc's original point. The accepted way to do testing is to rev the engine up, drop the clutch, and start timing from the instant the car starts moving - or sometimes from the time the car has moved the first foot, as Motortrend is fond of pointing out. This is several seconds after the driver realizes he wants to accelerate, and there's a definite response latency which gets hidden by this methodology (and is getting worse in this era of downsized turbo engines and increased VTEC.)

Given that test regime, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the higher power AWD cars can match the 0-30 time, with their advantage of all the driveline momentum to transfer.

But as rcc was saying, in the real world anywhere except the drag strip the EV has a huge advantage - it doesn't have that lag before things start to happen and can exert full force away from the stop without revving an engine up noisely first.

I doubt much will be able to touch the P85D on the street (except in those truly drag race type encounters which hopefully aren't really happening on city streets) - but I wouldn't be surprised if a number of fast AWD cars can match the 0-30 time on paper.
Walter

green1 · Nov 11, 2014

My point was that real world, in the city where it matters, even an S60 will likely beat many of the "super cars" for all the reasons you list. Faster time from touching the pedal to going all out, and only going to about 30 means that they don't get a chance to catch up with their raw power.
Unfortunately it's not a statistic that's easy to get ahold of to compare.

Aargau · Nov 11, 2014

Great point, and worth thinking about.

I've had the money to own a few performance cars. Decided against a Ferrari F355 because of a friend who owned one and had it in the shop more often than not, and couldn't fill up for gas without scraping the bottom driving up to the pump.

That car did 0-60 in 4.6 seconds.

I'm scared that my new P85D does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. I'm not joking, I have no idea how to handle it, I've never experienced anything close to it.

ecarfan · Nov 11, 2014

But it's a good kind of "scared" I'm sure. ;-)

I am looking forward to reading posts from Dual Motor owners when they finally get their cars.

Victory · Nov 11, 2014

Aargau said:
Great point, and worth thinking about.

I've had the money to own a few performance cars. Decided against a Ferrari F355 because of a friend who owned one and had it in the shop more often than not, and couldn't fill up for gas without scraping the bottom driving up to the pump.

That car did 0-60 in 4.6 seconds.

I'm scared that my new P85D does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. I'm not joking, I have no idea how to handle it, I've never experienced anything close to it.

I have nightmares about flooring the car and losing control because I'm just not mentally ready for that kind of acceleration.

dennis · Nov 11, 2014

Skotty said:
Still not fast enough? Seriously? Okay then, I guess there is the P85D now. The Shelby GT500 will be looking at tail lights. The P85D can match a McLaren F1. Something you have probably never seen in real life that you only catch a glimpse of on Top Gear or an episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, or whatever show replaces that these days.

While it is great for Tesla to compare the P85D to the McLaren F1, that is a car from 1998. Here are the modern comparisons:

2012-2014 McLaren MP4-12C - $229K MSRP, 616 HP, 3200 lbs, 0-60 3.2 seconds
2015 McLaren 650S - $265K MSRP, 641 HP, 3200 lbs, 0-60 3.0 seconds
2014-2015 McLaren P1 (successor to the F1) - $1.2M MSRP, 3300 lbs, 903 HP, 0-60 2.7 seconds

2015 Tesla P85D - $120K MSRP, 691 HP, 4900 lbs, 0-60 3.1 seconds
Any way you look at it, the P85D is stupidly fast. I mean, who needs it?

That's why I have a test ride scheduled in 2 weeks. :biggrin:

dennis · Nov 11, 2014

Higgs said:
1 - suspension/handling upgrade: after i got a P85+ as a loaner car once, i never really looked at my P85 the same way again. P85 is great in a straight line (the air suspension feels like a magic carpet ride) but feels absolutely ponderous on a curvy road next to the + package. i fell in love with how light the P85+ felt, how the body-roll disappeared. i went deep into discussions with Tesla soon afterwards to do a + retrofit. it would have cost upwards of $23k and the service center was NOT very excited to do it (even at that price). and yet, i STILL thought about doing it! P85D will have the + suspension built in, probably improved even further, and that's what i look forward to most, actually.

+1.

I was never happy with the handling of my P85 Sig - much more like a Lexus than a BMW. After driving a P+ demo car I sprung for the P+ upgrade. Luckily I was one of the first and they agreed to do it.

The P85D handling should be even better than the P+. They have the ability to instantaneously balance torque between the front and rear motors so the traction should be amazing.

Canuck · Nov 11, 2014

ecarfan said:
I am looking forward to reading posts from Dual Motor owners when they finally get their cars.

Me too. I'm also looking forward to reading about driver's assist and auto pilot. It's going to be hard just reading it, and not living it, though! Something tells me my orginal plan of the number of years I planned on owning this car will be cut short.

Super Snake · Nov 12, 2014

I am new to this forum but not new to muscle cars. I own a Shelby Supersnake with 656 RWHP. It is very fast and will throw you back in the seat. I have ordered the P85D and am looking forward to the instant power surge this car offers. I test drove the P85+ and it was fast with no hesitation. The Shelby requires shifting which slows down the whole acceleration process. The Tesla will handle better and offer better ability to accelerate out of situations or pass cars when needed. This will be a fun car to drive and safer too.

Olle · Nov 12, 2014

I am extremely happy that TM spends its money on developing the worlds best cars instead of spending it on boring TV ads like most other manufacturers. The marketing effect will be just as powerful. The difference is that we get the world's best and fastest cars to play with as part of the bargain. I love it!!

How fast is fast enough? Well, as we can clearly see in your timeline of fast cars, the bar is constantly being raised. There will be no limit.

- - - Updated - - -

Another thing is that when you have a big battery in a car, power is a low hanging fruit. Since you put in a big battery anyway, for range, there is really no drawback to allowing a quick discharge and get quick acceleration as a result.

In an ICE, power is a massive drawback since it comes with an equally massive and extra thirsty engine.

As battery sizes increase in EVs I think we will see faster and faster EVs.

So far we've seen a big comfy 7 seater that blows some supercars out of the water. Wait until they make a thoroughbred dedicated sports car. You've seen nothing yet...

Higgs · Nov 12, 2014

Olle said:
So far we've seen a big comfy 7 seater that blows some supercars out of the water. Wait until they make a thoroughbred dedicated sports car. You've seen nothing yet...

that's what i keep thinking about as well. a two-seater exotic of new NSX-like size/styling. 1,000hp and weighs 3,000lbs. will accelerate 0-60 in the time of most super motorcycles (2.0 seconds). will obliterate any gas hypercar of any price, for $180,000.

unfortunately, the Model X, Model 3, next gen Model S, and possibly a pickup truck are probably on Tesla's list of things to do before a super sports car like this.

jerjozwik · Nov 12, 2014

wow... i just checked the price on the rimac concept one. US$980,000. 2.8 seconds though...

Notacarguy · Nov 12, 2014

Great post by the OP. I own a "lowly" S60. Have had it for 1.5 days now and I can't imagine ever needing anything quicker than this. The acceleration allows me to get ahead traffic and gives me more options when driving. The fact it does it all silently I am sure confuses some people next to me as my car pulls ahead and out of sight with not even a chirp from the tires.

Took my co-worker to lunch, gave it 75% and heard her go "Woahh, what, oh my god, I almost lost my lunch."

If you need or want 3.2 0-60 have it at. But any Model S is plenty fast.

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