Teo Takes Tesla To Task

Teo · Jun 30, 2014

Merrill said:
Personally I want Tesla to put signs that say if you are not a Tesla charging at this supercharger your car will be towed away.

Merrill,
You are too far behind in the discussion. ICEing at Ellensburg station is a common problem and was discussed a few times. In Ellensburg, let alone towing signs, Tesla doesn't even put these two signs that are required by Washington State law:

D9-11b Sign

R7-11 No Parking Sign

It is explained here on a website by Washington State Department of Transportation (check about page)
West Coast Green Highway: Electric Vehicle Signs

On the website it shows images of another Tesla station that complies. But not all Tesla stations do. They put these signs in some station and in some others they don't because the host and Tesla made some agreement to allow shared parking. All stalls at Ellensburg are in prime parking spaces of the hotel. That location was never suitable for a supercharge station to begin with. Here are pictures:
Ellensburg Supercharger - Page 4

Zythryn said:
If the sign says general parking, you are out of luck, but call anyways.

So what are you supposed to do? Do you just wait there for 4 hours to charge? That doesn't help EV adoption, does it?

Here is what I suggest: (Of course I don't expect fanboys to agree. Fanboyism is quite common in this forum).
1. Take pictures and video of the ICED station and send it to news channels and EV websites. Also upload it to youtube.

2. Contact Washington State Department of Transportation and report Tesla's Ellensburg station for not displaying the required R7-11 and D9-11b signs.
Public-Private Partnerships Office
310 Maple Park Ave. S.E.
PO Box 47395
(360) 705-7023
[email protected]
Contact details are from this page.

Edit:
I dropped one of the suggestions.

Teo · Jun 30, 2014

Yes, I think Ellensburg is an exception. The location is exceptionally stupid.

NigelM · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
Here is what I suggest: (Of course I don't expect fanboys to agree. Fanboyism is quite common in this forum).
1. Take pictures and video of the ICED station. Then call Tesla and tell them you are recording the phone conversation. Then send the pictures, video and phone conversation to news channels and EV websites. Also upload it to youtube.

2. Contact Washington State Department of Transportation and report Tesla's Ellensburg station for not displaying the required R7-11 and D9-11b signs.
Public-Private Partnerships Office
310 Maple Park Ave. S.E.
PO Box 47395
(360) 705-7023
[email protected]
Contact details are from this page.

Why don't you report it? Oh you don't live in Washington State, or in the U.S., or on this continent.....

P.S. If you don't like fans of Tesla, you're on the wrong forum.

- - - Updated - - -

Teo said:
Yes, I think Ellensburg is an exception. The location is exceptionally stupid.

Been there often?

stopcrazypp · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
Here is what I suggest: (Of course I don't expect fanboys to agree. Fanboyism is quite common in this forum).
1. Take pictures and video of the ICED station. Then call Tesla and tell them you are recording the phone conversation. Then send the pictures, video and phone conversation to news channels and EV websites. Also upload it to youtube.

2. Contact Washington State Department of Transportation and report Tesla's Ellensburg station for not displaying the required R7-11 and D9-11b signs.
Public-Private Partnerships Office
310 Maple Park Ave. S.E.
PO Box 47395
(360) 705-7023
[email protected]
Contact details are from this page.

That's what I would expect to hear from a Tesla "hater" to suggest. Seems like a way to unnecessarily maximize the damage to Tesla's image (as well as make for a horrible day for the Tesla rep that answers the call) for something that can be resolved in a much more reasonable way.

Teo · Jun 30, 2014

NigelM said:
P.S. If you don't like fans of Tesla, you're on the wrong forum.

I didn't say fans. I said fanboys. There is a difference between the two. I'm a Tesla fan myself. Here is my disqus profile (a comment management system for websites). You can read there messages I wrote about Tesla on various sites.

bonnie · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
Here is what I suggest: (Of course I don't expect fanboys to agree. Fanboyism is quite common in this forum).
1. Take pictures and video of the ICED station. Then call Tesla and tell them you are recording the phone conversation. Then send the pictures, video and phone conversation to news channels and EV websites. Also upload it to youtube.

Here is what I suggest: Before you run out and follow this inflammatory advice, check your state laws regarding recording phone conversations. And remember that when you call Tesla, you're going to likely be calling someone in California. Does California law apply in that case? You might check with a lawyer first. (It definitely will if you happen to live in California!) In California, it is not enough to inform the other person you are recording them. You must have their permission to record the conversation. California's recording law is a 'two-party consent' law, meaning it is a crime to record any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call without the expressed consent of ALL parties to the conversation (see Cal. Penal Code Section 632).

This isn't about being a fanboy or not. It's about following the law. (And why in the world would you throw out that little 'fanboy' insult anyway? Why inflame your post like that? C'mon.)
----------------
Update: You can find the California penal code that applies to this here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=630-638

Teo · Jun 30, 2014

stopcrazypp said:
Seems like a way to unnecessarily maximize the damage to Tesla's image

I see it more like a way to bring up an issue to the attention of higher management.

stopcrazypp said:
as well as make for a horrible day for the Tesla rep that answers the call) for something that can be resolved in a much more reasonable way.

The job of the Tesla rep is to keep records of complaints and the pass on those to their supervisor. For example if there are too many complaints for Ellensburg, there should be a process in place to collect that information and then do something about it. When you call the customer advisor, if they tell you that you there is known issue at Ellensburg and they received other complaints about it and it is known problem to the management, then I don't think the person you have talked to has anything to fear. But if they tell you something like, "if general parking is allowed there is nothing we can do" then of course this is not a good approach.

bonnie · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
I see it more like a way to bring up an issue to the attention of higher management.

Good thing you're not a chef. Because I fear that all food would be served burnt ... "I see it as cooked, what's the problem?"

... My point, of course, being that there are more effective ways of bringing issues to the attention of higher management, without ruining things for everyone.

stopcrazypp · Jun 30, 2014

bonnie said:
Here is what I suggest: Before you run out and follow this inflammatory advice, check your state laws regarding recording phone conversations. And remember that when you call Tesla, you're going to likely be calling someone in California. Does California law apply in that case?

Good point. Both California and Washington are all-party consent states. Washington allows recording as long as the recording of the call is announced (continuing the conversation gives implicit consent). However, in cases of cross-state conversation, the California supreme court has ruled that the stricter California law takes precedent (so explicit consent must be given if one of the parties is in California). So what Teo suggests would actually be illegal when calling a Tesla rep in CA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws#All-party_consent_states

NigelM · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
The job of the Tesla rep is to keep records of complaints and the pass on those to their supervisor. For example if there are too many complaints for Ellensburg...

Feel free to drop by Ellensburg and check the latest signage, then call the Tesla Complaints Rep if necessary, whenever you're in the area Teo....

stopcrazypp · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
I see it more like a way to bring up an issue to the attention of higher management.

See bonnie's analogy. It doesn't sound like anything a reasonable "neutral" person would suggest.

Teo said:
The job of the Tesla rep is to keep records of complaints and the pass on those to their supervisor...then I don't think the person you have talked to has anything to fear. But if they tell you something like, "if general parking is allowed there is nothing we can do" then of course this is not a good approach.

The issue is with this part:

Then send the pictures, video and phone conversation to news channels and EV websites. Also upload it to youtube.

What reason is there to do this unless it is to damage Tesla's reputation? Most people would just make a follow up call to see if the complaint is processed and ask for a reference number before ending the call. I'm curious if you actually take the approach you suggest for every complaint you have with any company.

Teo · Jun 30, 2014

stopcrazypp said:
Most people would just make a follow up call to see if the complaint is processed and ask for a reference number before ending the call.

This is not how Tesla sees the problem. Currently the approach is that you don't have the right to complain if the signage allows for general parking. That is the reason why in the opening message you can read that calling Tesla was not helpful at all. They don't want you to call if the signage is not for dedicated stalls. Therefore according to Tesla, in Ellensburg you shouldn't call Tesla if all stalls are ICED. Here is a quote from Tesla's Supercharger FAQ:

A non-Tesla car is parked in a dedicated Supercharger stall, what should I do?Many Supercharger sites are outfitted with ‘dedicated’ stalls (meant only for Tesla vehicles) and a few ‘enabled’ stalls (which allow for time-restricted general parking). Please be aware of stall signage. If a non-Tesla vehicle is blocking a ‘dedicated’ Supercharger stall, please notify Tesla at (877) 798-3752 (international phone numbers).

source: Supercharger | Tesla Motors

bonnie · Jun 30, 2014

Actually, you always have the right to complain. Silly to state otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

Teo, I'm curious. You find out that some of your advice is, in fact, not legal. Yet you totally ignore that and just keep bulldozing on. Why is that? Did you not see the post? Do you not care? Do you wish to correct that advice? I can't figure out why you wouldn't do so ... I just don't get why you don't acknowledge stuff like that at all.

Teo · Jun 30, 2014

bonnie said:
Actually, you always have the right to complain. Silly to state otherwise.

That's not something I'm saying. I'm just quoting what the FAQ says. From the FAQ it appears when you try to complain, they tell you there is nothing they can do if the signage allows for general parking. I think that is a poor approach. How is Tesla supposed to collect data about what stations have this problem? It is not like they have sensors at stations that detect parked cars and then an computer compares these to charging logs to determine if a parked car was charging or not. I wish it was like that. I'm a believer that many problems have technical solutions.

bonnie said:
Do you wish to correct that advice?

Good idea. I have now changed it.

dsm363 · Jun 30, 2014

Teo said:
Yes, I think Ellensburg is an exception. The location is exceptionally stupid.

I've actually charged there, have you? There was another car there, you are right about that. It was a Model S.

Do you know for a fact Tesla isn't putting up the signs that the property owner wants them to?

ecarfan · Jun 30, 2014

Concerns about waiting in line for superchargers

Teo, based on what your TMC member page shows as your "Location", which is "London", I assume you are in England. Is that correct?

Your first post in this topic offers some remarkably detailed advice for solving the issue of ICEed Tesla charging spots at the Supercharger in Ellensberg, Washington, USA. I am glad to hear that you have a Model S on order. It appears that you have yet to use a Supercharger, let alone one on a different continent for where you reside. Yet based on a photo of the Ellensberg Supercharger location you unequivocally pronounce the location as "stupid" and advocate taking very direct and public action (posting on YouTube) so as to embarrass Tesla and force them to address the situation.

I think you are going overboard to solve a problem with which you have had no direct experience. I suggest that every Model S owner who has had a problem at Ellensberg contact Tesla directly and explain the situation, and try to work with the Holiday Inn manager to come up with a solution. No reason to go "nuclear" and employ techniques that may violate the law.

I see that you are a relatively new TMC member and that you have posted almost 100 times over the past month. I applaud your enthusiasm and I hope your S arrives soon. The waiting is the hard part!

Merrill · Jul 1, 2014

Teo said:
Merrill,
You are too far behind in the discussion. ICEing at Ellensburg station is a common problem and was discussed a few times. In Ellensburg, let alone towing signs, Tesla doesn't even put these two signs that are required by Washington State law:

D9-11b Sign
View attachment 52696

R7-11 No Parking Sign
View attachment 52697

It is explained here on a website by Washington State Department of Transportation (check about page)
West Coast Green Highway: Electric Vehicle Signs

On the website it shows images of another Tesla station that complies. But not all Tesla stations do. They put these signs in some station and in some others they don't because the host and Tesla made some agreement to allow shared parking. All stalls at Ellensburg are in prime parking spaces of the hotel. That location was never suitable for a supercharge station to begin with. Here are pictures:
Ellensburg Supercharger - Page 4

So what are you supposed to do? Do you just wait there for 4 hours to charge? That doesn't help EV adoption, does it?

Here is what I suggest: (Of course I don't expect fanboys to agree. Fanboyism is quite common in this forum).
1. Take pictures and video of the ICED station and send it to news channels and EV websites. Also upload it to youtube.

2. Contact Washington State Department of Transportation and report Tesla's Ellensburg station for not displaying the required R7-11 and D9-11b signs.
Public-Private Partnerships Office
310 Maple Park Ave. S.E.
PO Box 47395
(360) 705-7023
[email protected]
Contact details are from this page.

Edit:
I dropped one of the suggestions.

I was speaking of all supercharging stations and what Tesla should do to keep them from being ICE'd. Ellensburg location is one of the worst and I hope that Tesla will not pick spots like that in the future.

golfski · Jul 1, 2014

bonnie said:
Good thing you're not a chef. Because I fear that all food would be served burnt ... "I see it as cooked, what's the problem?" ... My point, of course, being that there are more effective ways of bringing issues to the attention of higher management, without ruining things for everyone.

Why does alerting the news/authorities ruin it for everyone? Tesla charges $2000-2500 for access to their SC network, they should really be doing their due-diligence when choosing these sites to put the SC, ensuring that the spots are reserved for Tesla charging only. How does building a network of SC's that is inaccessible by electric cars because of no precautions help the adoption of electric cars? I have been to Ellensburg SC twice, with my wife and two kids. We stopped for an hour and fed the kids, changed diapers, got everyone settled down for the next 150 miles of driving. If I had to wait any extra time to actually charge because of an ICE'ing problem, I would be ******! Tesla has the obligation to ensure this network has as much up-time as possible, whether that's working SC's or ICE'ing problems.

I'm not one to be a cry-baby and complain, but if the standard means of communication that Tesla offers is not working for some - or there is a perceived problem, shouldn't we work towards resolving it? Everyone keeps referring to alternate ways to "resolve" this problem, but Teo is the only one actually offering suggestions. Who cares if he doesn't live in the area? I see a lot of others offering comments about this who don't live in the area either!

I love my Tesla, but to drive my Tesla, I need electricity. I want Tesla to ensure the charging network that I paid $2000 for is accessible to me as much as possible and the only thing that should be in my way is other Tesla cars.

bonnie · Jul 1, 2014

golfski said:
Why does alerting the news/authorities ruin it for everyone? Tesla charges $2000-2500 for access to their SC network, they should really be doing their due-diligence when choosing these sites to put the SC, ensuring that the spots are reserved for Tesla charging only. How does building a network of SC's that is inaccessible by electric cars because of no precautions help the adoption of electric cars? I have been to Ellensburg SC twice, with my wife and two kids. We stopped for an hour and fed the kids, changed diapers, got everyone settled down for the next 150 miles of driving. If I had to wait any extra time to actually charge because of an ICE'ing problem, I would be PISSED! Tesla has the obligation to ensure this network has as much up-time as possible, whether that's working SC's or ICE'ing problems.

I'm not one to be a cry-baby and complain, but if the standard means of communication that Tesla offers is not working for some - or there is a perceived problem, shouldn't we work towards resolving it? Everyone keeps referring to alternate ways to "resolve" this problem, but Teo is the only one actually offering suggestions. Who cares if he doesn't live in the area? I see a lot of others offering comments about this who don't live in the area either!

I love my Tesla, but to drive my Tesla, I need electricity. I want Tesla to ensure the charging network that I paid $2000 for is accessible to me as much as possible and the only thing that should be in my way is other Tesla cars.

My issue was with going straight to publicizing and embarrassing, without trying any other method first. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

Teo · Jul 1, 2014

golfski,
thanks for being one of the rare people to write something reasonable.

To all,
I want to give a little background on this issue and why I know so much about Ellensburg even though I'm not even from the US. It started a month ago in a topic in official Tesla forums. Somebody posted THIS link where you could find state regulations for each state about EV charging. When I saw a topic about ICEing at Ellensburg, I remembered that link. I checked regulations for Washington State. I wrote in the Ellensburg topic saying that the station doesn't comply with the regulations.

Soon somebody responded and said the regulations don't apply to private land. Everybody seemed to agree with that. So I quoted the text from the regulation which says "public or private property". So excuse number 1 was ditched and they came up with excuse number 2. (By the way you can read the regulations HERE) The new excuse was that the regulations don't apply to Tesla stations because Tesla stations are not open to the public. Only Teslas can charge there. Other cars can't. Therefore Washington State law doesn't apply to Tesla stations. I know it sounds silly but that was the argument. Again everybody seemed to agree with that. It is amazing how easily people can accept an opinion as a fact if it suits their view. The discussion was over for a while.

Then because I'm good with research, I decided to check. So I looked and found THIS website by Washington State Department of Transportation which clearly shows a Tesla station that complies, as an example of how the regulations are implemented. After that they ditched excuse 2 and came up with something new. The new argument was that, Ellensburg was never fully ICED and if it was you should call Tesla and Tesla would call the host and they would fix the problem. Until that happens and the problem is not solved, people suggested that there was no reason to complain. They also said the hosts at Ellensburg were perfect and would help you.

Now a couple of weeks later here we are in another topic about Ellensburg. This time all stalls are ICED. The host didn't help. Tesla was called and they were not helpful at all (check opening message). The FAQ section on Tesla website where the phone number is, tells you not to call Tesla if a space allows for shared parking.

My suggestion to the OP and to the drivers who were ICED at Ellensburg is to take a picture and send it to EV websites. Without a picture those websites have no story. If a few websites post news about ICED Tesla stations I believe Tesla will fix the problem. I don't think they will fix it earlier because there is no reliable data coming in.

The phone line does not collect information when the station is fully ICED and there are no dedicated stalls to only EV charging. Some people might call Tesla anyway but this is not something Tesla wants you to do. Therefore it can't be their preferred way or a reliable way of collecting data about fully ICED stations that have no dedicated stalls.

I guess the next stage from here will be somebody who gets stranded at Ellensburg station overnight. When that happens I expect a few people to write things like "I was there four times and it was perfect."

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