Contemplating Model S... anyone ordered the 60KWh?

dotcomslashnet · May 6, 2014

Hi,

I took a test drive last week in a 85KWh... I probably don't need to tell you how great a car it is, you already know!

I was contemplating spending somewhere around £40-45K on a BMW 435i Gran Coupe for delivery later in the year until I tested the Tesla Model S. I was totally smitten with the S and ready to place my order when I left but, while I haven't made my mind up completely after the initial excitement the Tesla has its downsides... it is much bigger than I need, in some regards it's quite poorly specced (e.g. no DAB as standard) and there are a quite few unknowns (I won't list them all, but perhaps the biggest is the longer term success of Tesla in the UK). However, if I can work my head around these points, when it comes down to it, the cost is the biggest factor.

So, realistically, I'm looking at a P60. By the time I've given it a coat of metallic paint, the tech pack and enabled supercharger charging (all essential items imo), I'm looking at about £56K... around £11K over my original top end budget.

That, in itself, is not the biggest concern though... my biggest concern is that in buying the 60KWh model, it'll be worth significantly less in a couple of years when I come to sell it... i.e. I'll see greater depreciation compared to a similar spec 85KWh car. I only really read talk of the 85KWh variants, and I read somewhere that the supercharger network in the states is effectively designed to suit 85KWh range, and if you've get a 60KWh battery, you won't get from one supercharger to the next.

So, has anyone ordered a 60KWh car in the UK? If so, what do you make of these points? I can see how if you're retired, have no intention of driving further than say 150 miles in a day, and have every intention of keeping the car indefinitely, the 60KWh makes sense. Also, in that case, why bother with enabling supercharger?

I see from the small print on the designer page that enabling supercharger charging is apparently done in software (something about temporarily enabling supercharger for collection from a service centre). If so, £1800 seems a bit steep to flip a bit in the settings somewhere. I guess you're paying for the lifetime free charging, but some middle ground would not seem unreasonable for those of us who travel long distances fairly infrequently.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Adam.

Morristhecat · May 6, 2014

I think you are mistaken that a 60 cannot get from one supercharger to the next. Existing and planned superchargers around here are all within reach of one another in a 60 despite terrain and winter. I recall Elon in a speach sometime mentioning that a distance of 120-150 miles is the right number to target between superchargers, or something like that. A 60 will be fine. Although everyone will tell you that you won't need it, but to get an 85 if you can afford it.

PV4EV · May 7, 2014

I'd question the real world range of an MS 60kwh in the UK.

I'm well aware that the MS has a much lower Cd compared to a Roadster, but its a much larger heavier car with a bigger CdA etc so I'm dubious of the real world range of a 60 kwh car when compared to a Roadster with almost the same battery capacity.

In my own car I have to think ahead if I intend to drive more than 150 miles on any journey on UK roads at typical UK speeds. With some restraint 200+ miles is possible on a long steady run at modest speeds. To achieve Tesla's 240 mile in a Roadster claim you need to cruise at very steady 55mph for 4+ hours.

So it if were me I'd somehow aim for the 85kwh version as the priority, which is after all a 40% increase in capacity and justify it to myself by knowing that the extra cost will have paid for itself in "petrol savings" in under 25k miles when compared to the running costs of an ICE car of similar performance. Beyond that everything is a bonus !

Have you factored in the very attractive tax benefits if you can put it through a company and effectively write the whole cost down against corp tax for an effective 20%+ discount on the price ?

J1mbo · May 7, 2014

Range should be your first priority unless this is to be a second car. Saying that, the Leaf has a lower range than the 60 and is selling very well. Maybe the chademo adapter will make life easier for 60 owners.

If not buying it as a company car, then the 85 is an expensive option. Petrol, servicing, car tax and congestion charges are all savings which will help reduce the bill, but these are not massive savings in context to the original purchase price.

FWIW, the 20% 'discount' is only valid until the company sells the car...

widodh · May 7, 2014

Don't forget the awesome Ecotricity network in the UK. I used it in March to go to Wales: Middelburg to Wales and back | Widodh

With the CHAdeMO adapter you can use those chargers as well, so you can also travel where SuperChargers can't take you.

PV4EV · May 7, 2014

widodh said:
Don't forget the awesome Ecotricity network in the UK. I used it in March to go to Wales: Middelburg to Wales and back | Widodh

With the CHAdeMO adapter you can use those chargers as well, so you can also travel where SuperChargers can't take you.

Any ideas when this will be available ?

It will allow 50kw charging at nearly 100 motorway locations around the UK, and all IKEA's. That's quite something

widodh · May 7, 2014

PV4EV said:
Any ideas when this will be available ?

It will allow 50kw charging at nearly 100 motorway locations around the UK, and all IKEA's. That's quite something

I hope in July, but expecting September.

Objective1 · May 7, 2014

A MS60 was one of the first cars to go coast-to-coast in the US on the SuperCharger network. The SuperCharger network is generally laid out to work well for 60s. Reports are that 60 range is holding up well.

J1mbo · May 7, 2014

Until told otherwise, it is coming with the car, mid-June :wink:

cjc9er · May 7, 2014

I can reassure you that the 60 is sufficient for 90-95% of the driving conditions you are likely to encounter. Going to the 85 doesn't get you to 100% either, so the question of whether it is worth the incremental cost is very much a personal one. The key advantages that persuaded me to ultimately purchase a 60 were as follows, and I have no regrets:

* Higher energy efficiency and lower weight - the car travels more km/kWh by not having to carry around as much battery weight.
* Even after enabling supercharger capability, the 60 kWh battery saves $8,000 in purchase costs, which is not a trivial sum for most buyers.
* Acceleration is faster in the 60 than any car I have ever owned - no need to risk more speeding tickets by getting an even faster car.
* The larger battery enables more power flow to the motor, which encourages more high speed and high acceleration driving, which wastes even more electricity, so some of the extra range you think you'll get from the larger battery doesn't occur in practice.
* Most importantly, the battery pack is replaceable/swappable. Since lithium ion batteries improve in energy density and cost/kWh by perhaps 5 to 10% per year, there are real advantages to starting with the smaller, lighter battery now and upgrading to something bigger once the technology development curve has significantly reduced its cost and increased its energy density. Panasonic's 18650 cells are already up to 3400 mAh of capacity apiece and they are developing 4000 mAh cells, compared to 3100 mAh cells when Tesla first started building the Model S. See the following link for more details: http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/model-s-going-use-new-version-panasonic-18650-series-battery. All of which means there is no perfect battery; there is what you can afford now, and a recognition that things will continue to improve for years to come.

mgboyes · May 8, 2014

I have been told in no uncertain terms by 2 different Tesla employees that the EU CHAdeMO adaptor will not be ready for first UK deliveries in June. At the moment you can't even order one (in the US or UK); they've removed them from both websites. The US will get theirs first, probably in the summer, and hopefully we'll get ours later in the year, despite the fact that they're against IET regulations so in the long term will probably be illegal.

dotcomslashnet · May 14, 2014

Thanks for all the opinions. I realized shortly after posting that the assertion about the layout of the Supercharger network was probably wrong; I don't know where I heard that - maybe a video somewhere.

That is good news for the 60. Many of the other points are good ones too;

Performance - I currently drive a diesel Audi A3. I should think it's good for 60mph in about 8.5 - 9 seconds, so anything around 6 seconds is going to be great for now.
Interchangeable batteries - This is an interesting idea... though I think I'll probably replace the car before we get to the stage where this is viable economically.
Supercharger - I gather it can be enabled retrospectively. My usage patterns would warrant supercharger access maybe 3-4 times a year. Doesn't seem worthwhile for me at the moment. CHAdeMO means nothing to me at the moment - I'll look into that. Today I ordered a 30A charger from British Gas for the driveway, I think that'll cover my daily needs.
Residuals - Who knows? I expect something similar to a top end BMW 5 series with similar performance / price point, but could be pleasantly surprised in 2 or 3 years. I suspect the Model E will have an impact on residuals for the Model S though.

Unfortunately this won't be a company car - I'm moving away from a company car for other reasons... a real shame given the tax incentives. My employer may introduce a salary sacrifice scheme in the future - but I'm not holding my breath.

IMO the government incentives for private ownership are lame. If only Osbourne would waive the VAT or something more meaningful than a mechanism for manufacturers to drop the ticket price by 5K... every little helps I suppose, but it pales in comparison with the tax benefits for those with company cars or their own business.

mgboyes · May 14, 2014

Direct quote from my Delivery Experience Specialist: "The CHAdeMO adapter is currently in the last stages of testing and validation. Unfortunately I can not give you an exact date or time slot for this. However we are working on it and once we receive more news we will get in touch with you."

@dotcomslashnet I think the government incentives for private ownership are designed to be generous on smaller cars. There's limited sympathy for people who can afford to spend £60 - 100k on a vehicle.

Over on the tesla forums someone has been surveying the reservation holders about what they've ordered. With 35 responses there isn't a single S60 yet. The split is about 40% S85, 40% P85, 20% P85+.

dotcomslashnet · May 14, 2014

I guess this is a rich man's game right now. I'm in the fortunate? position of being just about able to afford an S60, I imagine many early adopters will be able to afford the expenditure many times over.

I suppose I'm not looking for sympathy though - just a sound financial incentive to coax me out of a V8 into an EV of comparable performance. The incentive's there for company cars, not so for the private buyer.

Vger · May 14, 2014

dotcomslashnet said:
I guess this is a rich man's game right now. I'm in the fortunate? position of being just about able to afford an S60, I imagine many early adopters will be able to afford the expenditure many times over.

I suppose I'm not looking for sympathy though - just a sound financial incentive to coax me out of a V8 into an EV of comparable performance. The incentive's there for company cars, not so for the private buyer.

Respectfully, I think you will be very happy with an S60, and miserable if you buy another ICE and then pine over the Tesla for years. Even though I have an 85, if I lived in Europe, and was buying a car now, I think I would seriously consider a 60. If I buy a Model X eventually, it will almost certainly be a 60. Between the rapidly expanding supercharger network (first UK station being built!) and the immanent release of the CHADdeMO adapter, you should be set. Remember that the S60 is more efficient than the S85, since it is lighter.

Also, I think you are underestimating the impact of fuel savings. If you keep the car for even 3-4 years, if will probably become cheaper to own than the BMW.

mgboyes · May 14, 2014

If you really can afford an S60, and you are OK with the possibility that in the very worst-case you might have to hire a VW Golf Diesel once or twice a year, then go for it. 208 miles of range is still more than every other EV in the world except one, and Tesla will sell you an 85kWh battery in the future if you find you really do need it.

As @Vger says, the incentive is zero car tax, and phenomenally low fuel costs. If you charge overnight on Economy 7 a full charge will cost £4.20 and take you 200 miles. In a petrol V8 travelling the same distance will cost £50 or more.

I'm expecting my Model S to save me at least £500 a month in direct costs (diesel, car tax, maintenance). Over 5 years that's £30,000!

Dan43 · May 19, 2014

I am also in the same dilemma for the 60kWh version. Unfortunately had to cancel 2 test drives but might be on the Ocford one this week if anyone drops out. For the cost I feel the S60 is the sweet spot. Superchargers are a while away, most people will be charging at home, and the current UK network on Ecotricity will be enough for most who require a top up, also most topping up will be done at the destination (either family, friends, business) who I am sure would lend you a socket (albeit 13amp only)

It is still expensive, £50K buys a lot of car elsewhere, especially ex-demo or nearly new, and dealers will do deals ( friend just saved £10K on a new Merc 13 plate zero miles) I can't see any Tesla deals, probably ever. The USA site does have business leasing mind which would be interesting (low initial outlay)

I am flip-flopping so much I can't quite make my mind up, but for me the 60kWh is the model I too would go for. Perhaps a test drive will persuade me to take the leap?

gavine · May 19, 2014

A test drive will very likely persuade you to take the leap.

mgboyes · May 19, 2014

@Dan43 there's already a Supercharger at South Mimms Services on the M25 (all the construction is apparently done, and it will be live in time for the UK launch on 7 June).

You should definitely take a test drive!

mgboyes · May 19, 2014

In fact Tesla have just updated their Supercharger map at Supercharger | Tesla Motors, which now shows 8 UK Superchargers by this winter.

Contemplating Model S... anyone ordered the 60KWh?

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