105 ~ 106kW SuperCharging rate

widodh · Mar 16, 2014

I did a Netherlands <> Austria trip with my Model S last week (2400km in total) and I've used the German SuperChargers to do so.

What I observed that with my S85 (Sep 2013) I never went over a charging rate of 106kW.

I've seen the same at the Oosterhout and Zevenaar SuperCharger in the Netherlands, but others report the same with US SuperChargers.

Elon Musk told that SuperCharging would go up to 120 and even 135kW, but in the last couple of months 106kW is the maximum I've seen.

I arrived with various SoCs, most of them with <50km of range remaining.

Now, I'm not complaining, 106kW is a huge amount of power, but I'm wondering why I haven't seen higher rates then exactly 106kW.

It doesn't seen to be limited to the Dutch or German SuperChargers since people are seeing similar rates at US SuperChargers.

Any clues?

EarlyAdopter · Mar 16, 2014

Did you have the Supercharger pair to yourself? What were the outside temperatures? Both will rob you of peak charging power.

Also, you will only see the max rate of charge at lowest SOC. It tapers off from there.

apacheguy · Mar 16, 2014

widodh said:
Now, I'm not complaining, 106kW is a huge amount of power, but I'm wondering why I haven't seen higher rates then exactly 106kW.

It doesn't seen to be limited to the Dutch or German SuperChargers since people are seeing similar rates at US SuperChargers.

Any clues?

Actually, some here in the US have peaked at 123 kW, and most regularly charge at close to 120. But at least you aren't 90-limited, as some of us are :wink:

widodh · Mar 16, 2014

EarlyAdopter said:
Did you have the Supercharger pair to yourself? What were the outside temperatures? Both will rob you of peak charging power.

Also, you will only see the max rate of charge at lowest SOC. It tapers off from there.

I was the only one, so sharing was not the case.

Also, I have never seen anything higher then 106kW. <50km seems like a low SOC to me?

apacheguy said:
Actually, some here in the US have peaked at 123 kW, and most regularly charge at close to 120. But at least you aren't 90-limited, as some of us are :wink:

So is that on specific SuperChargers?

Jason S · Mar 16, 2014

widodh said:
I was the only one, so sharing was not the case.

Also, I have never seen anything higher then 106kW. <50km seems like a low SOC to me?

So is that on specific SuperChargers?

<50km should be low SOC. Specific SuperChargers is true, although I'd expect the EU zone ones to be new enough to support the 120. There were some early rollout ones in the US that were limited to 90, I think, but those have been upgraded too, I think.

widodh · Mar 16, 2014

Jason S said:
<50km should be low SOC. Specific SuperChargers is true, although I'd expect the EU zone ones to be new enough to support the 120. There were some early rollout ones in the US that were limited to 90, I think, but those have been upgraded too, I think.

I expected that as well.

Any Norwegians who can weigh in on this? Are they seeing >106kW charging rates?

This is not something I observed last week. I saw this on all my SC visits I did in the last couple of months.

FlasherZ · Mar 16, 2014

Thinking about this, and this is pure speculation, but it could be the voltage difference. Considering that the US Superchargers use L1-N voltage (277V) of 480VAC L-L service across a group of chargers, perhaps EU is using the standard 230-240V L1-N voltage of standard service. That would place maximum current across 12 chargers at roughly 115 kW (240V) or 110 kW (230V).

Oyvind.H · Mar 17, 2014

Haven`t seen higher than 105kW here in Norway.

widodh · Mar 17, 2014

FlasherZ said:
Thinking about this, and this is pure speculation, but it could be the voltage difference. Considering that the US Superchargers use L1-N voltage (277V) of 480VAC L-L service across a group of chargers, perhaps EU is using the standard 230-240V L1-N voltage of standard service. That would place maximum current across 12 chargers at roughly 115 kW (240V) or 110 kW (230V).

The target voltage is 360 ~ 410V for the SuperChargers.

From what I've seen on the labels it uses 3-phase, so that's 400V on the EU grid. That should be sufficient for 135kW I think?

Oyvind.H said:
Haven`t seen higher than 105kW here in Norway.

Thanks for the information!

So it seems to be EU-wide?

LuckyLuke · Mar 17, 2014

Arrived @ Oosterhout today completely empty ("charge now" in dash), and I was the only car charging, the maximum rate I saw was 104kW.

FlasherZ · Mar 17, 2014

widodh said:
The target voltage is 360 ~ 410V for the SuperChargers.

From what I've seen on the labels it uses 3-phase, so that's 400V on the EU grid. That should be sufficient for 135kW I think?

It has been said that US Superchargers use the same chargers that are located in US cars, so I'm making the assumption they're rated for 40A max each.

I'm not sure how the Superchargers are connected in Europe, but I can talk about the US ones based on what I've seen. While the Supercharger label says 480VAC 3-ph wye-connected, the Supercharger doesn't actually use L-L voltage (480V) and the label says it requires a neutral. It apparently uses the L-N voltage (277V), with 4 chargers connected to each phase in parallel. So 12 chargers * 40A each * 277V = ~133 kW. (There is an alternative connection method using 240VAC 3-ph Delta as well - the label says in that case, neutral isn't needed. This would mean L-L is used (240V), although this would be limited to 115 kW: 240V * 40A * 12 chargers = 115 kW.

I am just speculating that EU Superchargers are likely connected in the same way. So while it would be connected to a 400VAC (L-L) 3-ph network, the voltage used would be L-N: 400V / sqrt(3) = 230.9V, and 12 chargers (again, speculation) would be ~111 kW max (12 chargers * 40 A * 230.94V).

spentan · Mar 17, 2014

Are your cars 85kWh? Or 60?

jkirkebo · Mar 17, 2014

Oyvind.H said:
Haven`t seen higher than 105kW here in Norway.

Neither have I. My P85+ maxes out at ~285A, even when I arrive with <10% SOC. That translates to approx. 105kW. Maye a connector issue? I believe US cars go up to 355A or so from the SuperCharger.

Owner · Mar 17, 2014

This is very common. Small components of the supercharger system can break, but the overall system still continues to function quite well. For more details, read this blog post of mine.

Charger Test 4, 5 QA | Tesla Owner

FlasherZ · Mar 17, 2014

Owner said:
This is very common. Small components of the supercharger system can break, but the overall system still continues to function quite well. For more details, read this blog post of mine.

This would make sense if one charger was malfunctioning in the cabinet, which would reduce the SC's maximum performance by ~11 kW.

I think the two are different, though. These reports are all lining up to support my theory (although confirmation bias is present

), if all EU Superchargers are getting a maximum of 105-106 kW it is likely to be the voltage difference between the US and EU.

Owner · Mar 17, 2014

In all my supercharging including times when I was not "testing" the superchargers, I find I most often am not charging at 120kW but often a few kW lower. I'm also typically driving during non-peak periods. So if I had to bet I'd say the experience in Europe was the same.

One of my supercharger tests was at the Vacaville supercharger, which is a new supercharger also and probably the same build date as many in Europe.

FlasherZ said:
This would make sense if one charger was malfunctioning in the cabinet, which would reduce the SC's maximum performance by ~11 kW.

I think the two are different, though. These reports are all lining up to support my theory (although confirmation bias is present ), if all EU Superchargers are getting a maximum of 105-106 kW it is likely to be the voltage difference between the US and EU.

FlasherZ · Mar 17, 2014

It may be the case, we can't definitively say. There are plenty of owners who are registering well above 105-106 kW in US SpC's, and with no one seeing > 105-106 kW in Europe, I'd be willing to put money on my theory.

Owner · Mar 17, 2014

I enjoy "silly" betting…..:biggrin:

So what can we bet on an internet forum?

If you win, I'll give you a reputation point? :tongue:

FlasherZ said:
It may be the case, we can't definitively say. There are plenty of owners who are registering well above 105-106 kW in US SpC's, and with no one seeing > 105-106 kW in Europe, I'd be willing to put money on my theory.

widodh · Mar 17, 2014

FlasherZ said:
It has been said that US Superchargers use the same chargers that are located in US cars, so I'm making the assumption they're rated for 40A max each.

I'm not sure how the Superchargers are connected in Europe, but I can talk about the US ones based on what I've seen. While the Supercharger label says 480VAC 3-ph wye-connected, the Supercharger doesn't actually use L-L voltage (480V) and the label says it requires a neutral. It apparently uses the L-N voltage (277V), with 4 chargers connected to each phase in parallel. So 12 chargers * 40A each * 277V = ~133 kW. (There is an alternative connection method using 240VAC 3-ph Delta as well - the label says in that case, neutral isn't needed. This would mean L-L is used (240V), although this would be limited to 115 kW: 240V * 40A * 12 chargers = 115 kW.

I am just speculating that EU Superchargers are likely connected in the same way. So while it would be connected to a 400VAC (L-L) 3-ph network, the voltage used would be L-N: 400V / sqrt(3) = 230.9V, and 12 chargers (again, speculation) would be ~111 kW max (12 chargers * 40 A * 230.94V).

Yes, that seems like a very good theory.

Elon Musk however said that the German SuperChargers would go up to 135kW.

Rumors are going around that Tesla is developing new SuperCharger hardware. So it could be that the EU now has "US spec" SuperChargers and that we will get a revised version which does 135kW on the European powergrid.

Currently it has been silent for 3 months now in new SuperCharger deployment, so that might support this theory.

FlasherZ · Mar 17, 2014

widodh said:
Elon Musk however said that the German SuperChargers would go up to 135kW.

Rumors are going around that Tesla is developing new SuperCharger hardware. So it could be that the EU now has "US spec" SuperChargers and that we will get a revised version which does 135kW on the European powergrid.

Currently it has been silent for 3 months now in new SuperCharger deployment, so that might support this theory.

Could be. Is there a photo of the label on one of the EU Superchargers? Is it the same as the US labels where it calls for 240VAC 3 phase or 480VAC 3 phase? Would love to see a pic if it's different than the "Supercharger 120" labels.

I believe a redesign of the chargers would have to be done to make anything else work, and even then it wouldn't really change anything as using the L-L voltage would use the same power over the conductors (although it would eliminate the need for a neutral if it could use 400V L-L). For Germany, perhaps they're just adding 3 more chargers (one for each phase) to the cabinets, and that would create the potential for 138 kW (230V * 40A * 15 chargers).

- - - Updated - - -

Owner said:
I enjoy "silly" betting…..:biggrin:

So what can we bet on an internet forum?

If you win, I'll give you a reputation point? :tongue:

I can always use them, I'm always behind brianman, and he's my reputation idol here.

It's a deal. Now to find someone who has the real answers -- good luck.

105 ~ 106kW SuperCharging rate

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