EV parking priority

[Yggdrasill]

I'm not talking about taxes; I'm talking about regulations. In this city the existing regulations for parking spaces are already a significant constraint on commercial development. If someone starts promoting this idea to the city, who knows what poorly-thought-out requirements they might impose?

I'm not suggesting that the charging should be mandated through regulation. The businesses will do it themselves to remain competitive, at some point in time.

Why would I build infrastructure that won't be used for a decade or more, and which could become obsolete in the meantime? Why overbuild infrastructure to support the Leaf when in ten years everyone might have a Tesla (or a similar large range capable EV) and won't really need to charge at work? We are already installing a reasonable amount of infrastructure to meet future needs, not today's.

There will still be plenty of lower range-vehicles EVs and plug-in hybrids on the roads in a couple of decades. Batteries will become cheaper, but they will not become free. As long as your business has sufficient charging infrastructure, there's no problem. But don't be surprised when your charging infrastructure becomes insufficient. That point is where you have to make a decision about whether to simply add a few more charging points, or supply all your parking spaces with charging. Maybe you'll decide to just add a few more charging points, to again have sufficient charging, but if so, don't be surprised when your charging infrastructure again becomes insufficient.

[smoothoperator]

It's not a huge issue. Here in Norway, we have enough hydropower that electricity isn't really any cheaper at night. In places like California they can install more solar to smooth out the curves. The grid operators will find solutions tailored to the regional conditions.

(Also, if a store offers 2 hours free charging and parking, that's a maximum of 6 kWh/30 km/20 miles. And how often do you spend 2 hours at a store? It's not a replacement for charging at home, it only supplements it.)

Depends where....Most Tesla stores are located in malls or areas that have a high density of stores, so its very likely that you could be getting a 70amp charge...even 30 mins would allow you to capture a significant amount of miles. I usually only go to malls/stores that allow me to charge, if that was taken away I would just shop online or somewhere else.

Not if you charged in San Luis Obispo. 30 amps = 6.6 Kw per hour X .28cents per Kwh (peak demand) = $3.70 for Electricity.

Even at these numbers (which I am sure is far greater than what the local rates in my areas are) the amount of $ I spend at these stores far exceeds the $3.70 in electricity consumed (and I am pretty sure this is normal).

[Doug_G]

I'm not suggesting that the charging should be mandated through regulation. The businesses will do it themselves to remain competitive, at some point in time.

Right, that is the proper model. My worry is that well-meaning people may take the view that regulation is the solution.

There was a controversy here recently when a condo board unplugged a Volt owner. A knee-jerk reaction might be to pass a regulation requiring EV charging at condos. While there might be a case in the short term, there are plenty of ways that could go wrong. Just look at the controversy in California over plug sharing.

Ultimately competition will provide plenty of incentive. Condo boards will eventually discover that people don't want to live there because they can't plug in their EVs. Their property values will drop as a result, and the residents will be clamoring to fix the problem. I have no idea how long that will take, though.

There will still be plenty of lower range-vehicles EVs and plug-in hybrids on the roads in a couple of decades. Batteries will become cheaper, but they will not become free. As long as your business has sufficient charging infrastructure, there's no problem. But don't be surprised when your charging infrastructure becomes insufficient. That point is where you have to make a decision about whether to simply add a few more charging points, or supply all your parking spaces with charging. Maybe you'll decide to just add a few more charging points, to again have sufficient charging, but if so, don't be surprised when your charging infrastructure again becomes insufficient.

It is difficult to predict the future. I fully support the rollout of EVs - indeed I think it will be essential to the very survival of our economy. For that reason I'm more than willing to install some infrastructure at our office, even though it is not needed right now. I'm the only EV driver, and it's a Tesla so I don't need to charge at work. But I'm not going to spend $20k right now when it isn't needed. I'm going to implement a basic capability and leave room for expansion.

The situation would be different if I was building a condo. At the very least I'd make sure the entire parking area was at prewired.

[vfx]

...- but then allow charging a premium rate for time parked, monopolizing the charging system, but not drawing meaningful current (meaning you're fully charged)....

While I'm in the free charging camp (We encourage businesses to offer charging to attract customers who have to wait around) this idea of tiered charging based on draw is a good solution for getting squatters off the teet.

How about a three tiered charge rate plus a no charge rate?

At a public parking station an EV plugs in (required). The first part of the charge is the cheapest. As the battery fills the electronic tender in the car slows the electric flow the pricing goes up twice. The max no charge rate is when the charging stops.

Of course a car that is just topping off would be paying the near max rate.

The car sends a signal to the owner who can make the call weather they want to to continue each rate change to the end where they would incur the max rate charge.

[daniel]

If it has a tailpipe, it's not an EV and should be towed/fined/ disconnected accordingly.

You'll get a big argument from the PHV crowd on that.

I vote for sharing.

ALWAYS the best plan!!!

I realize this might be a wildly unpopular statement here, but I can't imagine having the audacity to expect to be able to charge for free.

I agree! But as I noted earlier, people will ALWAYS find a way to justify claiming that they should get special privileges.

I guarantee this problem will solve itself when free charging points disappear. At that point the plug-in Prius, with its 8 mile EV range, will seem even more pointless than it already does.

Not at all! Read the views of people on Prius Chat who own the PiP. For commuting, it gets significantly better mpg; for long trips it's a conventional Prius. I know someone who bought the PiP primarily because he does not like the added wear and tear on an ICE on very short trips. Anything under 8 miles he'll drive electric and have no wear and ear on his ICE. Anything over 8 miles, he'll start the ICE soon enough that it is operating long enough to warm up properly.

What happens when someone has a handicapped/disabled hang tag and an EV. Do they get the primo spot?

Then they can choose either the EV charging spot or the handicapped spot. Some day, when EVs predominate, and there are many chargers, some will be handicapped only.

I am all for moving EV charging stations/parking spots in inconvenient locations, personally I would prefer if the EV parking/charging spots were far away from normal spots.

I agree!

...Would probably end up trying to find a RV park and charging there instead with my UMC.

I would just take the stinker. Spending four hours at an RV park, with nothing to do, in the middle of a long road trip, would drive me nuts.

I enjoy plugging in for free in public (when I need a charge) and I think this is an important perk for EV drivers.

As I said before, people will always find reasons why they should get special privileges. "EV's should get free charging." "I own a REAL EV so PHVs should not be able to use the charger that I might want to use." All this is nothing but special pleading. Sure, you can make rational-sounding arguments. But people who have to pay for gas will argue that their tax dollars should not pay for your fuel. And PHV drivers will argue that they should have access to chargers because they, too, are reducing oil consumption.

The only way it will ever be settled is if we are willing to share.

Paying for NOT charging while monopolizing the charging station might sufficiently motivate people to move their vehicle. (Of course this shouldn't be applied at places like airports.)

I believe I suggested something like this. Parking rate should go WAY up after charging is complete, with a reasonable grace period.

The simple solution to electric car infrastructure would be to pass a federal law that every gas station must install at least one Level 3 charger for every four gas pumps they currently possess, within the next five years.

Ain't gonna happen in the U.S. But as more and more EVs hit the roads, the market will provide incentives for gas stations to install chargers.

I get the point, what I'm saying is that you would never see a PiP at a charging station if the owner of that car had to pay for the privilege. It's not worth it for the lousy 8 EV miles or whatever it is. [...] Think about it in the examples that have been put forth thus far. With pay chargers, only owners of full EV's could justify plugging in, because they would NEED to. Everyone else would just let the ICE make up the difference. It might be an extreme stance, but I do believe it would work out that way.

You underestimate the satisfaction and bragging rights that PHV owners derive from maximizing their EV miles. Go to a PiP or Volt forum and see how proud people are of their EV miles percentages. They are not willing to give up the security blanket of the gas engine's range, but they LOVE driving electric, and they will do whatever it takes to get a few more EV miles (even if it's only 8). It's not a question of money. These are people who desperately want to drive an electric car, but are afraid of a pure EV. They will demand the right to use those chargers, and they will pay whatever they must.

We have to share. And we should not demand anything for free. Some businesses will give free charging to bring in customers. That will be their choice as a business decision. But it's not our "right." It's just a business strategy, like the free parking at malls. "Move your car when charging is complete" is the only thing we have a right to demand, and there should be mechanisms, either legal or financial, to enforce it.

[mattjs33]

The only problem I have with these types of "Your car is now fully charged, unplug and move it" solutions is that they might not be practical. A local mall has a public charging station (somewhere, I still have not found it), so if someone plugs in while they shop, the car is likely to reach full charge while they are all the way across the mall and nowhere near being able to run back to the car and unplug (it's a big, sprawling mall). Plus the inconvenience of having to do so and find yet another parking spot. What if they are in a movie at the theatre there? You're not always going to be able to go right out and unplug when the charge is done.

One thing I think we all agree on, is that it's a complicated issue, still looking for an elegant solution.

[Larry Chanin]

The only problem I have with these types of "Your car is now fully charged, unplug and move it" solutions is that they might not be practical. A local mall has a public charging station (somewhere, I still have not found it), so if someone plugs in while they shop, the car is likely to reach full charge while they are all the way across the mall and nowhere near being able to run back to the car and unplug (it's a big, sprawling mall). Plus the inconvenience of having to do so and find yet another parking spot. What if they are in a movie at the theatre there? You're not always going to be able to go right out and unplug when the charge is done.

One thing I think we all agree on, is that it's a complicated issue, still looking for an elegant solution.

I think the approach that charges a premium for parking while fully charged is a decent solution. Getting a ticket or towing, etc., shouldn't be the penalty for parking while fully charged. The EV owner parking has to evaluate whether its worth it to him/her for the convenience of charging. This is no different than folks who have to decide between paid parking or hunting for a free parking space.

Larry

[Lloyd]

http://connectorprotector.biz/GreenCarReports.pdf

The only problem I have with these types of "Your car is now fully charged, unplug and move it" solutions is that they might not be practical. A local mall has a public charging station (somewhere, I still have not found it), so if someone plugs in while they shop, the car is likely to reach full charge while they are all the way across the mall and nowhere near being able to run back to the car and unplug (it's a big, sprawling mall). Plus the inconvenience of having to do so and find yet another parking spot. What if they are in a movie at the theatre there? You're not always going to be able to go right out and unplug when the charge is done.

One thing I think we all agree on, is that it's a complicated issue, still looking for an elegant solution.

In California this has been legislated. If you are parked in an EV charging spot and you are no longer charging, you are subject to Citation. AB 475

Edit: Details of the law say that you just have to be plugged in and not actually charging.

[Yggdrasill]

Right, that is the proper model. My worry is that well-meaning people may take the view that regulation is the solution.

There was a controversy here recently when a condo board unplugged a Volt owner. A knee-jerk reaction might be to pass a regulation requiring EV charging at condos. While there might be a case in the short term, there are plenty of ways that could go wrong. Just look at the controversy in California over plug sharing.

Ultimately competition will provide plenty of incentive. Condo boards will eventually discover that people don't want to live there because they can't plug in their EVs. Their property values will drop as a result, and the residents will be clamoring to fix the problem. I have no idea how long that will take, though.



It is difficult to predict the future. I fully support the rollout of EVs - indeed I think it will be essential to the very survival of our economy. For that reason I'm more than willing to install some infrastructure at our office, even though it is not needed right now. I'm the only EV driver, and it's a Tesla so I don't need to charge at work. But I'm not going to spend $20k right now when it isn't needed. I'm going to implement a basic capability and leave room for expansion.

The situation would be different if I was building a condo. At the very least I'd make sure the entire parking area was at prewired.

I agree with what you are saying. You seem to be ahead of the curve, and that is all one can really hope for.

[vfx]

...These are people who desperately want to drive an electric car, but are afraid of a pure EV. ...

The perk of EV charging and charging for free should be limited to those who have made the complete jump to full a BEV. If you have a gasoline motor you can enjoy the "advantages" of getting around on ubiquitous gasoline. Pure EV owners do not have that ability and when the are ICE'd by a Volt or PIP they do not have the option. Since we all know that these hybrid owners will mostly end up in a full EV someday then like HOV lane access, the ability to use charge station is something that they will get when they loose the training wheels.

My sharing is limited to other "no option" full EVs only.