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Fast charging

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dpeilow

Well-Known Member
Moderator
May 23, 2008
9,170
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Winchester, UK
I was recently talking to some people who are planning to install two 2MW wind turbines. The said that they will have to bring in a HV grid connection over about 5 miles and that they were on the threshold between needing 11kV and 33kV lines. They were quoted £1.5m by the local power company.

Now a commercial 10 minute charging station would most likely be ok with 11kV and I doubt it would be 5 miles from the grid, so finger in the air it is likely to be half that amount. (Anyone have any other quotes we could use to pin this down?)

It's not ridiculous number to establish such a station once the EV market grows and it is a lot less than figures I have seen for commercial size hydrogen stations.


None of which takes away from the SSC 220V domestic socket claims being total bull...
 
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I certainly agree that the claims put out by SSC which started out as total insanity have merely made it down to the level of total BS.

But I do believe there is some misconception on this forum as to the level of electrical power that is readily available in commercial and industrial areas. I am familiar with the electrical service at two local grocery stores in my rather rural area. The larger of the two would be considered a large store but certainly not a super store, it's service has a 1.5 MW capacity. The smaller store has a 1 MW capacity. There is nothing unusual or special about these stores.

Also construction costs for gasoline service stations regularly runs several million dollars. The costs for underground tanks and all the required safety features is significant. In past years the cost to comply with updated regulations have driven many stations out of business.

I believe the only thing needed to bring fast charge stations into existence is for enough people to be willing to pay the required higher price for the same electricity that they can get at home for much less. Personally I see almost no times I would need anything faster then a 45 min. charge next to a decent restaurant or a overnight charge at a hotel for all of my away from home travel needs.
 
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A turnpike service stop that could accommodate 200 Tesla EVs charging while the owners eat lunch would require 14 MW of service with each car at 70 kW.

And wouldn't that be a glorious sight to behold! It is hard to imagine how many electric cars would need to be on our roads to have 200 requiring a quick charge in a single location at a single moment in time. I look forward to that day.

I believe the our electric companies would be thrilled with the opportunity to sell 14 MW of power at or above small customer retail rates. It seems a much better return then providing 40 to 50 MW of power at wholesale rates for your typical electric arc smelter furnace.
 
And wouldn't that be a glorious sight to behold! It is hard to imagine how many electric cars would need to be on our roads to have 200 requiring a quick charge in a single location at a single moment in time. I look forward to that day.

I believe the our electric companies would be thrilled with the opportunity to sell 14 MW of power at or above small customer retail rates. It seems a much better return then providing 40 to 50 MW of power at wholesale rates for your typical electric arc smelter furnace.

If EVs were widely used, could you imagine the MASSIVE draw on our electric grid during lunchtime on the day before Thanksgiving?

That really would be a sight to behold.

Though if 1MW service is avaliable readily then it's not too much of a stretch to open a station with 4 car capacity (each using 250kW of power) to provide ~10 minute charging (35kWh pack, ~150 miles of range, don't need a very big pack if rapid charging is available). A 2MW service can power a 8 car station. If you have some slower chargers rather than all rapid chargers then you can charge more cars at the same time.
 
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OK, let's not start talking about 10 minute charges again. According to Tesla, maximum charging speed is 45 minutes with current chemistry.

I agree. And frankly I don't think 10 minute recharges are even necessary.
When I make a long car trip, I need to stop for a break every 3 hours. Restroom, bite to eat, etc. I think that even people on a road trip would be fine with that standard.

Just to use a Tesla Roadster example, at 65 mph it will do about 200 miles, even on standard mode (90% SOC to 10%). That is about 3 hours of driving.

I have driven across the USA from Florida to Seattle Washington. It is really tough to do more than 700 miles per day when you have kids in the car.

If I had a Tesla Sedan with a 300 mile range, I am positive that during a 700 to 800 mile day that we would be making two stops of about an hour each time. If fast recharging was available (440 volts, 160 amps) then that would likely be sufficient to meet the long range needs of most EVs.

The business model of gas stations is not just to sell you gasoline/diesel. They need you to come inside, buy some snacks, drinks, eat, etc. The financial incentive, in an EV world, would be to install a fast charger, but not too fast. They would love to have a captive audience for about 45 minutes to an hour.
 
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OK, let's not start talking about 10 minute charges again. According to Tesla, maximum charging speed is 45 minutes with current chemistry.

To be clear - that is how they see it based on the chemistry they are currently using. Other types of batteries could conceivable allow 10 minute recharge assuming you have access to the required current levels and charging equipment.
 
Right, I moved a few posts so we could have a thread about the technical issues involved with fast charging in general (and not just about that SSC). We can have a separate thread about the Tesla 45 minute charge, if you wish. But discussion about the 10 minute charge (a totally different ballgame) is fair game here. It should be noted that prognosticators such as Siry have gone on record to say that fast chargers (the 5 minute or so kind) are needed for electric cars to be accepted by the general public.
 
It should be noted that prognosticators such as Siry have gone on record to say that fast chargers (the 5 minute or so kind) are needed for electric cars to be accepted by the general public.

I read that. Makes sense and may turn out to be true. I'd like to think, however, that it would be possible for a sea change (maybe slowly) of acceptance as more and more adopters realize overnight charging for day to day use is perfectly acceptable, and 45 minute charging on the road for trips works fine too.

I think the change that will make the charge time moot will be better energy density per volume and weight, as Elon just alluded to with the advancements for the Daimler pack, that will allow much better range. If in 5 years I'm able to replace the battery of my Roadster with a battery that has 500 miles of range, then even long day trips become no problem. If I'm able to add 100-200 miles of range charging during lunch at the turnpike service stop, all the better.

Therefore I believe the fast charge problem will become mostly moot if these two things happen first.
1) Long range EVs of 500 miles per charge.
2) Widespread infrastructure of overnight charging at hotels and friends homes (220V 70A to charge that 100 kWh battery in 7 hours).

With that 500 mile pack, if I can plug in almost anywhere I park for the night, and also at a good selection of restaurants, then I have no worries ... ever!
 
Re sea change,

I know I'm bias since I want a real EV but if you get in a room full of EV owners and they all start talking about charging and how it's just a shift in how you think and that it's really no trouble plugging in, that it's no problem at all dealing with mileage limitations, it is easy to get swept up in believing that it may not be all that bad.

Like being in a room full of people that all loudly swear that a movie is good when you heard it was bad. At the end you say OK, maybe I'll try it.

That's the way the it will will happen. The naysayers will not have the experience of having driven an EV so their complaints of difficulty will ring hollow next to early adopters saying it's no big deal.

Call it peer pressure, group dynamics, whatever, we are riding the wave of the sea change.
 
Maybe someday in the distant future, but for now, slower chargers in more places seems like a better approach.

Yes a quick charge is convenient, but there are a lot of reasons not to count on them:


  1. High current is not available everywhere. (Want/need industrial 3 phase nearby)
  2. More potential danger to those hooking up if there is an insulation breach.
  3. Bulkier/heavier/thicker cables to move around.
  4. Much more expensive equipment.
  5. Quite possibly less efficient than slower charging.
  6. Heat build up that needs to be dealt with.
  7. Many battery chemistries and architectures that don't support it.
 

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  1. High current is not available everywhere. (Want/need industrial 3 phase nearby)
  2. More potential danger to those hooking up if there is an insulation breach.
  3. Bulkier/heavier/thicker cables to move around.
  4. Much more expensive equipment.
    [*]Quite possibly less efficient than slower charging.
    [*]Heat build up that needs to be dealt with.
  5. Many battery chemistries and architectures that don't support it.

Addressing the points 5 and 6. I was actually gonna bring that up based on another thread that had mentioned the fast charging. I think it was talking about charging at home with the HPC. I believe TEG (could have been someone else) said that in order to charge in 3.5 hours it requires more power because the battery pack needs to be kept cool. If you can get the same full charge in 8-12 hours (charging over night) and not need to use the 3.5 hour capability, wouldn't you end up using less energy?

Also, can't you "program" (not sure if that is the word I want) the Roadster to charge at a certain rate? I vaguely remember reading that on one of the threads on this site. So I was under the impression that (it might even be based on a setting) you could plug the Roadster in and have it so that it finishes right before you need. With that if you plugged it in at 5 PM (get home from work) and you need it at 7 AM you have 14 hours to charge it, so it can charge at a slower rate. But if you got home at 9 PM one night and still needed it for 7 AM you now only have 10 hours to charge it so a quicker rate would be used.

I guess what I'm kind of getting at (besides trying to get some clarification) is wouldn't it be better to use fast charging (even the 3.5 hour charge) as little as possible?

-Shark2k
 
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I think it is rather complicated. Try reading these:

Battery Chargers and Charging Methods

During fast charging it is possible to pump electrical energy into the battery faster than the chemical process can react to it, with damaging results.
The chemical action can not take place instantaneously and there will be a reaction gradient in the bulk of the electrolyte between the electrodes with the electrolyte nearest to the electrodes being converted or "charged" before the electrolyte further away. This is particularly noticeable in high capacity cells which contain a large volume of electrolyte.

There are in fact at least two key processes involved in this chemical conversion. One is the "charge transfer", which is the actual chemical reaction taking place at the interface of the electrode with the electrolyte and this proceeds relatively quickly. The other is the "mass transport" or "diffusion" process in which the materials transformed in the charge transfer process are moved on from the electrode surface, making way for further materials to reach the electrode to take part in the transformation process. This is a relatively slow process which continues until all the materials have been transformed.
Both of these processes are also temperature dependent.

The charging process may be subject to other significant effects whose reaction time should also be taken into account such as the "intercallation process" by which Lithium cells are charged in which Lithium ions are inserted into the crystal lattice of the host electrode.
In addition there may be other parasitic or side effects such as passivation of the electrodes, crystal formation and gas build up, which all affect charging times and efficiencies, but these may be relatively minor or infrequent, or may occur only during conditions of abuse. They are therefore not considered here.

The battery charging process thus has at least two characteristic time constants associated with achieving complete conversion of the active chemicals which depend on both the chemicals employed and on the cell construction. The time constant associated with the charge transfer could be one minute or less, whereas the mass transport time constant can be as high as several hours or more in a large high capacity cell. This is one of the the reasons why cells can deliver or accept very high pulse currents, but much lower continuous currents.(Another major factor is the heat dissipation involved). These phenomena are non linear and apply to the discharging process as well as to charging. There is thus a limit to the charge acceptance rate of the cell. Continuing to pump energy into the cell faster than the chemicals can react to the charge can cause local overcharge conditions including polarisation, overheating as well as unwanted chemical reactions, near to the electrodes thus damaging the cell. Fast charging forces up the rate of chemical reaction in the cell (as does fast discharging) and it may be necessary to allow "rest periods" during the charging process for the chemical actions to propagate throughout the bulk of the chemical mass in the cell and to stabilise at progressive levels of charge.

A memorable though not quite equivalent phenomenon is the pouring of beer into a glass. Pouring very quickly results in a lot of froth and a small amount of beer at the bottom of the glass. Pouring slowly down the side of the glass or alternatively letting the beer settle till the froth disperses and then topping up allows the glass to be filled completely.

Fast charging also causes increased Joule heating of the cell because of the higher currents involved and the higher temperature in turn causes an increase in the rate of the chemical conversion processes.


Battery Performance Characteristics - How to specify and test a battery
 
I read that. Makes sense and may turn out to be true. I'd like to think, however, that it would be possible for a sea change (maybe slowly) of acceptance as more and more adopters realize overnight charging for day to day use is perfectly acceptable, and 45 minute charging on the road for trips works fine too.

I think the change that will make the charge time moot will be better energy density per volume and weight, as Elon just alluded to with the advancements for the Daimler pack, that will allow much better range. If in 5 years I'm able to replace the battery of my Roadster with a battery that has 500 miles of range, then even long day trips become no problem. If I'm able to add 100-200 miles of range charging during lunch at the turnpike service stop, all the better.

Therefore I believe the fast charge problem will become mostly moot if these two things happen first.
1) Long range EVs of 500 miles per charge.
2) Widespread infrastructure of overnight charging at hotels and friends homes (220V 70A to charge that 100 kWh battery in 7 hours).

With that 500 mile pack, if I can plug in almost anywhere I park for the night, and also at a good selection of restaurants, then I have no worries ... ever!
Tesla Dave, I pretty much agree with everything you said and basically disagree with what Darryl had to say. In all fairness to Siry, he was discussing fast (5 minutes or so) charging coupled with relatively low battery capacity as a lower cost bridge to when larger capacity batteries become more affordable. But given that you'd need at least a 40 mile range for the car to be acceptable; the infrastructure needed, technical challenges, and cost of setting up the prerequisite fast charging stations; the fact that the batteries that can support that kind of charge rate tend to me more expensive; and that PHEVs appear to be the technology that will fill that bridge role (gas stations aren't going away anytime soon), I think he pretty much missed the boat on that one.

(This post employed gratuitous use of the semicolon.)