2014 Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid

It still sips petro and has "stuff" under the hood - that is a BIG difference.

Actually they aren't quite saying that the Porshe can compete, just that it hits the same ballpark as the Tesla. And that it is first to even do that.

I don't know why they pulled out the P85, because my lowly regular 85kWh will equal the Porsche to 60mph.

This line I did like though:

Jalopnik said:

But if you want to give off the impression of being green while you buy an incredibly expensive sedan, the Tesla isn't the only choice anymore.

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Sure I know it isn't really accurate for all current Tesla drivers, but the people who are looking at a Panamera Plug-in Hybrid it probably is.

Not to mention, of course, that the Panamera is butt-ugly.

I thought it was a good article. These are the buyers Tesla is going to have to attract in order to grow. Yes, they will get all of the "EV-only" buyers but there aren't very many of those. There are WAY more, "I want a car that I can afford and meets my needs" and those people care less about EV vs PHEV vs pure ICE. It's all about the sum of the whole package - will that be compelling for people to choose a Tesla over other cars? That's the question that anyone building a product needs to answer.

AC1K said:

• it gets 20 miles of range on its battery, the average US Driving statistic is a 60 mile commute per day

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I agree with most of your post, but do you have a source for that 60-mile commute datum? The only hard number of which I am aware is a study quoted by both GM and the Federal Government that showed 93% of daily drive totals were under 40 miles, if I remember the data correctly.

Rodolfo Paiz said:

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I agree with most of your post, but do you have a source for that 60-mile commute datum? The only hard number of which I am aware is a study quoted by both GM and the Federal Government that showed 93% of daily drive totals were under 40 miles, if I remember the data correctly.

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I thought it was 20 miles a day.

Rodolfo Paiz said:

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I agree with most of your post, but do you have a source for that 60-mile commute datum? The only hard number of which I am aware is a study quoted by both GM and the Federal Government that showed 93% of daily drive totals were under 40 miles, if I remember the data correctly.

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Note that AC1K claimed the AVERAGE of 60 mi/day. The mean, or average, is influenced a great deal by a few very high data points.

That is why the median house price is always quoted in the economic news, not the mean (average) home price.

GSP

Two issues -- first, the price comparison is off. The Model S doesn't "start" at $100k, that's a completely fully loaded one. The Panamera hybrid starts at $100k and goes up from there. Add in the total cost of ownership, since only those with the shortest commutes won't have to use gas, plus you still have oil changes, filters, transmission issues and everything else that goes along with ICEs, and the Panamera is a lot more expensive over several years.

Second, the Panamera seats four people and has little to no trunk space! I realize that a lot of people buying the Model S don't necessarily need either or both of these, but for many potential buyers these are close to dealbreakers. I used to laugh at the folks at Tesla when they'd gently try to sell me on a Roadster while I waited for a Model S. I've got three kids and a wife -- how am I going to justify a two-seater with no trunk space?! The Panamera is not much better, at all, than the Roadster was. Two extra seats (that are tight) and marginally more trunk space.

And I have a 17" computer touch screen

vfx said:

I thought it was 20 miles a day.

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The one-way commuting distance quoted in that study was 20 miles, yes. The full round-trip commute plus errands was < 40 miles for 93% of the population. Again, IIRC.

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GSP said:

Note that AC1K claimed the AVERAGE of 60 mi/day. The mean, or average, is influenced a great deal by a few very high data points.

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Please note that the 40-mile figure I quoted was not the median but the 93rd percentile. Both the mean and median would have been substantially below that number. There would have to be some awfully high data points in the remaining 7% to move the mean so far up, don't you think?

What if the buyer cares about how well their $100K sedan handles? Here are the skidpad numbers from this road test comparison of the Model S to the Panamera GTS:

Model S - .86G
Panamera - .96G

That is a significant difference in what I consider to be the weakest part of driving the Model S, which is its handling at speed. The Model S drives much more like a Lexus than a Porsche or BMW.

Wow... 0.96G is a very nice result indeed for a four-door sedan. Heck, 0.86G is a very nice result... the 0.96 is impressive.

AC1K said:

it gets 20 miles of range on its battery, the average US Driving statistic is a 60 mile commute per day

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Consider 20 miles 1 way to work or 40 miles RT. (I've put 21K EV miles on my Volt driving ~25 RT miles to work over 2 years)

Thread link: 78% of drivers drive 40 miles or less per day

20 miles is completely worthless


you are so limited smh

Holden said:

Not to mention, of course, that the Panamera is butt-ugly.

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Obviously the posters on this board and on this thread are almost all Tesla fanatics and fanboys. Our group includes early adopters and people who spend a lot of time posting and reading about these cars. We do not represent the general public.

That said, many find the Panamera to be more attractive than the Model S. My wife certainly does, which is why she bought one and does not want a Model S. Many, me included, find the Model S to look a lot like cars from Jaguar, Mazda, Chrysler, and Hyundai. The Panamera looks like, well, a Porsche, and I'm not aware of anyone mixing up a Panamera with a Hyundai. Of course, both cars are huge to the point that they don't fit in parking spaces and create dangers due to their largesse, as we are seeing with the high incidence of accidents and oopsies. My point: butt-ugly is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but if one were to do a survey, one might find that the majority of people (and potential customers) prefer the looks of the Panamera to the Model S.

As regards the notion that the Panamera Hybrid can't compete, I'd be careful before writing it off. True - it has an ICE. But 95% of the world buys ICEs - not BEVs. So for people on this board, the Model S is frequently the superior option. But not for the rest of the world. I feel little need or desire to get into the reasons that PHEVs appeal to the world more than BEVs, but that is where the world is now, with technology and resources as they are today. For example, if I want to drive to Las Vegas from Los Angeles to see my mom, I don't want to stop at the Barstow supercharging station and hope that it isn't being used. I want to be able to drive there, uninterrupted. And when I get to my mom's place, I don't want to have to find a charging station in Las Vegas and get my mom to pick me up and take me to her house and wait for my car to recharge, and then drive me back to my car. And I'm an early adopter who is more willing than many to accept inconveniences!

As Tesla goes from early adopters and other low-hanging fruit to trying to lure in others that aren't such an easy sell, cars like the Panamera Hybrid become a real competitive option, and dismissing them because they have an ICE is just being an ostrich.

^^^Your statement while some of it may be true, doesn't reflect real world reality. Tesla definately doesn't need the sales from 95% of the rest of the world that buys ICE cars to succeed. Typewriters ruled the world for quite a while until being replaced with computers. Did it happen overnight? Definately not. Who uses a typewriter now? You have to start somewhere.

To those thinking having a 20 mile AER PHEV is nothing, it's not. You should still get:

- Pure EV on short trips
- Much more efficient and "easy" gradual warm-up of the engine (unless you really hammer it)
- Much improved low-speed performance (i.e. not sucking in city traffic)
- Smooth response (if they do it right): instant torque + non-instant torque >> non-instant torque
- Unless you're commuting a looooong way, significant reduction in gasoline consumption (PHEV = limited BEV + hybrid). Obviously a Panamera driver doesn't care about gasoline consumption, but they might enjoy fewer fill-ups.
- Ubiquitous refueling infrastructure

Expanding the Supercharger network and making it dense enough to keep charging times short is key to defending against competition like this, but the competition should be welcomed, because more sales will bring more infrastructure and more sales.

It would be nice to know the skid pad number for the Performance plus modification.

dennis said:

What if the buyer cares about how well their $100K sedan handles? Here are the skidpad numbers from this road test comparison of the Model S to the Panamera GTS:

Model S - .86G
Panamera - .96G

That is a significant difference in what I consider to be the weakest part of driving the Model S, which is its handling at speed. The Model S drives much more like a Lexus than a Porsche or BMW.

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As I pointed out before, Edmunds happens to have the lowest skidpad number for the Model S. They got it from a 200ft diameter skidpad.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...Model-S/page46?p=252662&viewfull=1#post252662

C&D got 0.91 on a 300ft diameter skidpad.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-tesla-model-s-test-review

Motor Trend got 0.89 (0.87 for standard 85kWh version)
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear...nd_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/viewall.html

Although the Panamera lineup does have the highest skidpad numbers in its class (I think it beat even the CTS-V), I haven't been able to find a number for the Panamera Hybrid (yahoo says 0.89g for 2013, 0.85g for 2012, but no idea where they get the numbers).