Hydrogen vs. Battery

[stopcrazypp]

I don't think even that is a given. Current H2 stations can only refuel a small number of cars per day. Someone also commented a while back that it takes a while for the pressure to equalize so the top half of the tank fills more slowly...

5 minutes is typical if the station has the hydrogen pre-compressed at the right pressure. If the station has to compress hydrogen from a lower storage pressure, then it may take 15-20 minutes.

The linked report actually has a graph of fueling times (Figure 112, page 95, PDF page 108) and the average is below 5 minutes.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/learning_demo_final_report.pdf

[richkae]

5 minutes is typical if the station has the hydrogen pre-compressed at the right pressure. If the station has to compress hydrogen from a lower storage pressure, then it may take 15-20 minutes.

The linked report actually has a graph of fueling times (Figure 112, page 95, PDF page 108) and the average is below 5 minutes.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/learning_demo_final_report.pdf

Doesn't that chart actually show that the average is more than 5 minutes?

[brianman]

Doesn't that chart actually show that the average is more than 5 minutes?

Average=4.49 min
69% < 5 min

Quotes don't count for minimum post length check.

[richkae]

I see that chart 111 says that the average fueling time is less than 5 minutes - but the benchmark ( Tech Val Milestone ) they are going for is 5kg in 5 minutes.
Chart 112 shows that the average fueling rate is down in the 0.68 kg/min range, meaning that it will take 7.35 minutes to get 5kg.
I would assume from this that they are only fueling about 3.05 kg in the average fuel stop - thats not beating the target.
Stopping and fueling up when your tank still has 40% left in it may keep the average fueling time down but I think its cheating the test to get the results you want.

Edit: Chart 117 shows that the median fill up happens with the tank 42% - 50% full. Hydrogen range anxiety.

[richkae]

I think that many people underestimate how awesome it is to charge at home.
I've driven about 24000 miles over 3 years on energy charged from home.
I plug in about every other day. Thats 540 plug/unplug cycles over the 3 years at 10 seconds per plug/unplug. Thats 3 hours of my time over 3 years plugging and unplugging my car.

According to figure 27 the average FCV fills up after 98 miles.
Thats 244 fill ups. And at 45 mpkg I would need 784 minutes of H2 pumping time. The 244 fillups have at least a 5 minute overhead in and out of the fill up station - assuming I did not have to drive very far out of my way to get there.
Thats 53 hours of my time wasted fueling my FCV.
The FCV wastes more than 2 whole days of my life over 3 years.

[Robert.Boston]

The FCV wastes more than 2 whole days of my life over 3 years.

Way less than TMC Forums...

[GSP]

So the state of the art fuel cell vehicles:

1. Cost the most ( more than BEVs, and more than ICEs )
2. Have the really expensive part ( the fuel cell stack ) degrade just like batteries.
3. Are gutless. They have lower power output, so they will be no fun.
4. Cost a lot more to fuel than ICEs ( which cost a lot more to fuel than an BEV ), but if we invest a huge amount of money to build infrastructure the cost might be a little better or be about on par with gasoline ICEs.
5. Have inferior range to EVs. But more importantly an EV can drive its max range roundtrip from your home every day and never need to go to a fueling station - a 100 mile range FCV would force you to visit a fueling station every 2-3 days if you drive 40 miles a day.
6. Will have lousy cargo space because they need to carry around a giant cylinder of H2 under super high pressure.
7. Did I mention the giant cylinder of H2 under super high pressure?
8. Can refuel fast. This is the only thing that the FCV wins over a BEV.

No thank you.

That sums it up well.

With all the other advantages of EVs, I don't think 3000 mph fueling will be needed to get mainstream consumers to adopt them. 300 mph will be sufficient for road trips. The Model S will provide this. Customers will make some adjustments to get the EV benefits, just like they have done for other new disruptive technologies (automobile, mp3 players, etc).

For home and work charging, only 20-30 mph (30-40A) will be needed. Fueling at home is a great EV advantage that is hard to appriciate until you experience it.

BEVs will kill H2 for pass cars, and probably for other vehicles as well.

GSP

[vfx]

Let me give it a shot with HFC....

(you forgot)

Hydrogen is generated with clean energy from the sun.

[jcstp]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Racer, Built By Students, Powered By Green | Earthtechling

[doug]

I Drove A Wicked Fast Electric BMW And It Made Me A Believer In EV Racing

E30fernando 6 hours ago
Bill - Do you see them using hydrogen/hydrogen fuel cells as the long-distance competing solution?


Bill Caswell 5 hours ago
I dont but Im not the right person to be asking about this stuff. when I worked at Ford in 2003 there was a hydrogen refilling station at their proving grounds. I didnt see it last fall when I went back. The concept makes sense but there are so many unanswered parts. Seems way easier to me to work on better batter technology which crosses thru so many parts of our daily lives. Like I doubt I'll ever have a hydrogen powered Iphone.