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Thread: Hydrogen vs. Battery

  1. #61
    From 2005: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track (washingtonpost.com)
    A Jan. 9 article that said General Motors Corp. hopes to be able to build 1 million hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010 should have added that the company would do so only if there is enough demand for such cars.
    (Does that sound familiar? EV1 anyone? Car makers have to create demand for their products. If they build something with a wait and see attitude it is likely doomed.)

    From 2003: A hydrogen-powered boondoggle
    Last year, to placate the eco-wackos, President Bush launched FreedomCAR, a $1.2 billion partnership to produce practical, affordable hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles as soon as possible. Now he has launched a companion $720 million Hydrogen Fuel Initiative to develop, over the next five years, the technologies and infrastructure needed to produce, store and distribute hydrogen for use in those fuel-cell vehicles.
    Why hydrogen? Well, according to the eco-wackos, hydrogen is the "ultimate fuel." When you "burn" it, you get water vapor, but no carbon-dioxide.
    But hydrogen is not really a fuel at all. There aren't any underground reservoirs of hydrogen you can tap into. You have to produce it, spending more energy producing it than you get back when you burn it. Worse, the cheapest way to produce hydrogen is to steam-reform methane, and that produces lots of carbon-dioxide.

    OK, so we are past 5 years out for FreedomCar & Hydrogen Fuel Initiative... Are we there yet?


    Hydrogen Newsletter Winter 2002: FreedomCAR: 2010 Technology Goals

    FreedomCAR: 2010 Technology Goals
    The following goals for FreedomCAR were disseminated at a hearing before the Science Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives on February 7, 2002. David K. Garman, Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy delivered this information to the Committee.
    ...
    Fuel Cell Powertrains

    • Electric Propulsion System with a 15-year life capable of delivering at least 55kW for 18 seconds, and 30kW continuous at a system cost of $12/kW peak.
    • 60% peak energy-efficient, durable fuel cell power system (including hydrogen storage) that achieves a 325 W/kg power density and 220 W/L operating on hydrogen. Cost targets are at $45/kW by 2010 ($30/kW by 2015).
      ...
    • Demonstrated hydrogen refueling with developed commercial codes and standards and diverse renewable and non-renewable energy sources. Targets: 70% energy efficiency well-to-pump; cost of energy from hydrogen equivalent to gasoline at market price, assumed to be $1.25 per gallon (2001 dollars).
    • Hydrogen storage systems demonstrating an available capacity of 6 weight percent hydrogen, specific energy of 2000 W-h/kg, energy density of 1100 W-h/liter at a cost of $5/kWh.
    • Internal combustion engine powertrain systems operating on hydrogen with a cost target of $45/kW by 2010 and $30/kW in 2015, having a peak brake engine efficiency of 45%, and that meet or exceed emission standards

  2. #62
    FreedomCAR: A Realistic Goal -- Or Just Another Subsidy?
    FreedomCAR: A Realistic Goal -- Or Just Another Subsidy?...
    The “FreedomCAR” (Cooperative Automotive Research), proposed by the Department of Energy (DoE), is a public-private partnership designed to develop hydrogen as the principal fuel in the United States. As in past (failed) ventures, the government is supposed to work with Ford, General Motors, and DaimlerChrysler in researching and creating this technology. Rather than forcing American citizens to pay for this program for years to come, why not let private sector firms use their entrepreneurial talents to discover new ways to design and produce more fuel-efficient automobiles? When federal bureaucracy replaces American ingenuity, it can only result in a stagnant, stifled economy. Private businesses should be encouraged to flourish on their own; they should not be locked into a cooperative that answers to and relies on subsidies from the United States government.
    Historically, the marriage of the public and private sectors has not fared well. For instance, the FreedomCAR program replaces the “Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles” (PNGV) program that was instituted in 1993 by the Clinton Administration and partnered with the nation’s auto manufacturers. The PNGV’s ultimate endeavor was to develop an automobile that could get 80 miles per gallon, but that goal was never accomplished. Worse, U.S. taxpayers had to dip into their wallets for $1.5 billion to pay for it. In an article for Today’s Engineer, David Hawkins, director of the Natural Resources Defense Council’s Climate Center, contended that there must be some accountability: “The United States can’t afford another research program that just gives billions of dollars in subsidies to the automobile industry with no commitment from them to actually produce advanced vehicles for consumers to buy.”[1] When private businesses are subsidized by or in partnership with the government they become too reliant on federal funds. We have all witnessed the mediocre results and resistance to innovation of our public schools even as they’ve increased their dependence on federal funds. It will be a tragic mistake for private businesses to follow suit.
    Honda and Toyota have created and marketed hybrid gas/electric cars without a huge infusion of U.S. tax dollars to do it. While the Toyota Prius is slightly more expensive than the equivalent subcompact, it averages approximately 50 miles per gallon. Meanwhile, Rick Wagoner, G.M.’s chief executive, insists that FreedomCAR is different. He stated to the New York Times that: “For this to go, it’s a team sport. We’re going to need the government in.”[2] Toyota can research, develop, and market a successful hybrid car on its own, but General Motors requires subsidies from the government?
    President Bush is asking us to once again support a program that is doomed to fail. A Department of Energy press release dated January 9, 2002, states that “the public-private partnerships are the preferred approach to R&D,” but it noted that these cooperative efforts have to be “refocused.” That is an understatement. How can this “approach” possibly be “preferred” when it has been a proven path to accomplishing nothing? The press release goes on: “Aim at longer range goals with greater emphasis [on] highway vehicle contributions to energy and environmental concerns.” [3] Longer range goals? The PNGV program began in 1993 and hoped to produce a prototype by 2004 and have the cars to market by 2008 – that’s not exactly short-range.
    According to Carlos Ghosn, chief executive of Nissan, the current price for a fuel cell car today is approximately $700,000.[4] The FreedomCAR program is, quite optimistically, claiming that it will be able to produce a viable alternative to petroleum by the year 2015. But how many billions of dollars will be spent during those years, and will the cooperative produce a practical and affordable alternative? More importantly, what if the program is a complete failure? The American people were not asked if they would like to finance this venture, but we are expected to accept the outcome without complaint.
    An article in SiliconValley.com entitled “Bush Puts Money Behind Hydrogen-Powered Cars,” sheds light on several problems with the hydrogen technology that could lead to increased funding:

    • “It now costs about 10 times as much to power a car by hydrogen as by gas.
    • On-board storage for gaseous hydrogen is difficult and expensive.
    • There is no infrastructure for refueling similar to today’s gas stations.
    • Current hydrogen fuel cells are too big for many cars.
    • There’s a safety concern, as evident in the 1937 explosion of the hydrogen-filled Hindenburg dirigible in New Jersey.” [5]

    According to Paul Georgia at the Competitive Enterprise Institute’s Environmental Studies Program: “Hydrogen does not exist in geological reservoirs, it must be extracted from fossil-fuel feedstocks or water. The process of extracting hydrogen uses energy, which means that using hydrogen is less efficient than burning fossil fuels.”[6] When President Bush announced this new plan as part of his budget at the State of the Union address, it received vigorous support by Democrats and Republicans alike. President Bush, no doubt, is attempting to woo environmentalist voters by producing an emissions-and petroleum-free car, and if he wins them he will have to continue to appease them by throwing more money at their cause. A private business, on the other hand, has to please only its customers. In light of the current economic climate, Congress should be unshackling private business from the heavy chains of taxation and constricting handcuffs of unnecessary subsidies.
    ...

  3. #63
    Taxpayers Group Says New FreedomCAR Initiative Is A Waste Of Taxpayers' Money.

    Taxpayers Group Says New FreedomCAR Initiative Is A Waste Of Taxpayers' Money.

    Autoparts Report • March 4, 2003 • National Taxpayers Union


    The National Taxpayers Union (NTU) said that the Bush administration FreedomCAR initiative is a waste of taxpayers money. According to a recent study by the 335,000-member NTU, FreedomCAR's fiscal foundation is shaky at best and is likely to crumble as this venture progresses.
    "When federal bureaucracy replaces American ingenuity, it can only result in a stagnant, stifled economy," said NTU President John Berthoud. "While researching options for environmentally sound vehicles should advance, its progress should not be dependent upon government funding."
    As the NTU study reports, the recent popularity of the FreedomCAR program may have many believing that it is a new idea. In actuality, the FreedomCAR program merely replaces the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" (PNGV) program that was instituted in 1993 by the Clinton Administration and partnered with the nation's auto manufacturers.
    The PNGV's ultimate endeavor was to develop an automobile that could get 80 miles per gallon, a goal that was never accomplished (even after a $1.5 Billion government subsidy). Meanwhile, two independent companies, Honda and Toyota, were able to create and market hybrid gas/electric cars. The Toyota Pirus already averages 50 miles per gallon and with continued research, the rate of 80 miles per gallon could be reached.
    "What PNGV failed to accomplish after nearly a decade, the private sector has already come close to achieving," noted Berthoud. "Most importantly, they did not receive a huge transfusion of taxpayer funds."
    The NTU study attributes the cause of likely failure not only to the troubled history of government intervention with the free market, but also to the poor management of the agency overseeing this project, the DoE. Named one of the most inefficient organizations in the federal government by the National Research Council, even DoE's current Secretary, Spencer Abraham, supported the agency's complete abolishment when he served in the Senate.
    NTU is a non-profit, non-partisan organization that works for lower taxes, less wasteful spending, and accountable government at all levels.

  4. #64

  5. #65
    ERIC VFX vfx's Avatar
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    TEG, you are so pissing me off, or bumming me out.

    I can't decide which.


    Keep it up!

    The world loves to be deceived.


  6. #66
    Senior Member JRP3's Avatar
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    The Queen in Lewis Carroll’s Through the Looking Glass says that she could believe “six impossible things before breakfast.” Such an attitude is necessary to discuss the hydrogen economy, since no part of it is possible.
    The New Atlantis » The Hydrogen Hoax

    I should point out his ethanol/methanol conclusions don't hold up as well as his anti hydrogen arguments.

  7. #67
    Administrator dpeilow's Avatar
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    CARB chair calls all this hydrogen/battery fighting "madness" - AutoblogGreen

    Nice first comment from 'Dan'


    Renault kicks hybrids and hydrogen to the curb - AutoblogGreen

    Good for them...

    While it's sister company, Nissan, may still be chasing after hybrids and dreaming of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCV), reports say that Renault has had enough. It's dropped the duo and has decided it wants to go steady with electric vehicles. Company COO Patrick Pelata has let it be known that all its research and development resources will be be strictly focused on battery-powered locomotion and that they hope to have a third of the Renault line-up electric in 10 years.

  8. #68
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    dpeilow's CARB article links to a longer source article from Green Car Congress:

    Green Car Congress: ARB Chairman Characterizes Ideological Debate Between Hydrogen and Batteries as Madness

    One of the comments in that article:

    However of all things the episode of Top Gear that featured the Clarity FCV and the Tesla convinced me that the user experience of a FCV is a VERY powerful plus for FCVs. The ability to pull up to a familiar petrol station and fill up with hydrogen exactly as you used to with petrol I think will tip the scales in favour of FCVs even though they are less efficient.
    For those who thought the Top Gear episode would blow over or leave no lasting impressions...

  9. #69
    Administrator dpeilow's Avatar
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    I'll say one thing for Shelby and their 10 minute recharge claims: If they do demonstrate it this summer (high power supply or not), they may do the entire BEV industry a favour in this argument.

  10. #70
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    Agreed. And/or increase the capacity at least 4-fold so it does not matter as much.

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