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Superchargers to be limited in future? coming to McDonalds?

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NoMoGas

NoMoGas

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jul 22, 2013
1,266
803
Los Angeles, California, United States
#1
So I had an interesting, and slightly concerning, conversation at the local Tesla store today. Several things came out of this conversation including a massive expansion of the Supercharger network to include McDonalds and Hilton Hotels. If that ends up being true, it will be an astounding benefit to the charging network and drastically expand the range of the Tesla.

But for every good, there is bad and Tesla is allegedly monitoring what they view as a problem of people who live local to the Supercharger stations charging there instead of at home. Specifically mentioned was Hawthorne, CA, Newark Delaware and the Northeast in general. This is VERY troubling to me, even though I don't live in an area where it would make sense to go to a SC station to save 5 bucks.

I COMPLETELY understand that folks traveling long distance would feel slighted having to wait for a local to charge up before he or she can move on with their family to their final destination. And the argument that the SC system isn't designed for throngs of locals isn't lost on me but neither is it lost on me that unlimited access to the SC network is advertised, and purchased without restriction. To restrict the usage of the SC network after the fact would be, in my opinion, a pr nightmare for a company that has prided itself in standing behind its word.

With any luck there will be an SC station at every McDonalds and this wont be an issue. To me that's the true answer to this "issue"... expanding the network of SC's and even HPWC's, not restricting owners. That said, I think we all have to work together to be cooperative at SC's and make sure we don't leave our vehicles in bays longer than necessary, keeping our contact info available in the windshield, and giving deference to travelers. We'd much rather police ourselves then force Tesla to do it for us.

Your thoughts?
 
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#2
I doubt Tesla will limit Supercharger use.
building superchargers at McDonalds could be beneficial in certain areas, but I don't think we'll see SCs at all McDonalds locations, I'm sure the purpose of the superchargers is to enable long distance travel, not replace gas stations in cities.

i think they'll stick with their current map of future building sites, and if the stations get a lot of traffic then they'll just expand the site

Edit: also there is no need for superchargers at hotels, 80 or even 40 amp j1772 will be perfect, as those who stay at hotels will get a recharge during the night, with a SC they'll have to move their vehicle after its done in an hour or so.
it would make far more financial sense to install j1772's 20 of those would still be cheaper than a SC
 
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#3
The super chargers are not designed to be used by locals that want a free charge, they are designed for people traveling a distance that cannot make the trip with out supercharging. I would not want to wait for a local that has the ability to charge at home while I need to continue on my trip. I agree with your analysis and hope all Tesla owners will be thoughtful of others when using the superchargers. We were at the Folsom superchargers on Saturday around lunch time and they were full when we arrived. We waited for 10 minutes and one owner left, we then plugged in and another Tesla drove up. I went over to the owner and told him we had just plugged in. We went and had a snack and watched our progress on our iPhone, as soon as we had enough charge we came back and left. I do not know if anyone there was charging for free instead of at home, but would not have been happy if that were the case.
 
#4
AMPd said:
I doubt Tesla will limit Supercharger use.
building superchargers at McDonalds could be beneficial in certain areas, but I don't think we'll see SCs at all McDonalds locations, I'm sure the purpose of the superchargers is to enable long distance travel, not replace gas stations in cities.

i think they'll stick with their current map of future building sites, and if the stations get a lot of traffic then they'll just expand the site
Click to expand...

I can see some 3d party businesses making a go of a business model where they try the gas station model within cities, with their primary target customer being locals that don't have a garage to park in and charge. For those people, they would do something more like the gas station model - stop by the SC and pay for a charge periodically when the tank is getting lower. For this to work, these SC's would have to be branded differently - they would be McDonald's brand Tesla fast chargers using Supercharger Technology, or something like that :)

I don't know whether that would ultimately work or not - I do have a garage and parking my Roadster indoors at night and charging is part of the complete experience. Then again, how big is the market of people that want a Model S but don't have a garage to charge in?
 
#5
adiggs said:
I can see some 3d party businesses making a go of a business model where they try the gas station model within cities, with their primary target customer being locals that don't have a garage to park in and charge. For those people, they would do something more like the gas station model - stop by the SC and pay for a charge periodically when the tank is getting lower. For this to work, these SC's would have to be branded differently - they would be McDonald's brand Tesla fast chargers using Supercharger Technology, or something like that :)

I don't know whether that would ultimately work or not - I do have a garage and parking my Roadster indoors at night and charging is part of the complete experience. Then again, how big is the market of people that want a Model S but don't have a garage to charge in?
Click to expand...
3rd party, perhaps. Depending on the market, how many such customers exist.
but I don't see tesla doing it, as I'm certain I've heard Elon say the SCs were meant to enable long distance travel

i would like it if 3rd party companies did this, more charging sites is always good!
 
#6
NoMoGas said:
I COMPLETELY understand that folks traveling long distance would feel slighted having to wait for a local to charge up before he or she can move on with their family to their final destination. And the argument that the SC system isn't designed for throngs of locals isn't lost on me but neither is it lost on me that unlimited access to the SC network is advertised, and purchased without restriction. To restrict the usage of the SC network after the fact would be, in my opinion, a pr nightmare for a company that has prided itself in standing behind its word.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that Tesla is monitoring this and other charging etiquette situations, such as people parking their Model S at a Supercharger for hours to shop at the mall. It all depends on how WE exercise common courtesy. If we abuse the intent of the Supercharger network by not using the network for its intended purpose of road trips, or for parking our cars there indefinitely, then we should expect Tesla to take action.

If the owners are subjected to this sort of misuse of the network there would be a PR nightmare if no action were taken by Tesla. It’s really up to us. If we act like children we shouldn't be surprised if Tesla institutes adult supervision.

Larry
 
#7
THIS is exactly what people are missing when they talk about Tesla's ridiculous market cap. Tesla will eventually build the car and own the gas station, so to speak, too. If this information is true, it is great news. They can build out the super charger network, leaving it free and conveniently located along major routes where they are needed for those "must have boosts" needed to travel between cities, while simultaneously building out a for charge "convinience boost" network of chargers.
 
#8
novelty of "free electricity" will wear off

I would never travel to a SC to charge unless I was on a trip. What a waste of time. My 14-50 can recharge my P85 in a matter of hours. The "hassle" of traveling to a SC to fill up the main battery versus doing it at home would be an utter waste of time. While charging at home I can spend my time at home, doing what I love versus sitting at a SC for an hour charging my MS. Also, I assume TMC can track SC users. TMC will know in weeks if in fact this SC use by folks is an issue. TMC knows where we live, the location of our MS, the VIN#, etc. I would be embarrassed if I was using a SC to get a charge to avoid 20 kW of power at my home.

This would be like the person who drives 20 miles to save a ten cents on a gallon of gas. The novelty of "free electricity" will wear off very soon as the hassle takes over.
 
#9
I predict that Tesla may restrict the number of times per month that you can use a specific SC. For example, if you could only use any one SC 5 times in a month the only people that would be effected would be the locals.... I hope montgom626 is correct. But remember that electricity can be ~$0.30/kWh in some of the "problem" areas and the GEN III is expected to have SC access. $24/hr is a lot for a quick trip to the SC.
 
#10
Larry Chanin said:
If we abuse the intent of the Supercharger network by not using the network for its intended purpose of road trips, or for parking our cars there indefinitely, then we should expect Tesla to take action.Larry
Click to expand...

Larry,

Devils advocate: Where does it say the purpose of the SC network is solely for use during extended road trips? I have heard good arguments on both sides of this issue but haven't seen Tesla even so much as imply that the SC network was restricted.

Merrill said:
The super chargers are not designed to be used by locals that want a free charge, they are designed for people traveling a distance that cannot make the trip with out supercharging... ...I do not know if anyone there was charging for free instead of at home, but would not have been happy if that were the case.
Click to expand...

Once again Devils advocate... why? And by what right would we be upset if someone who paid for access to the SC network used that access in a manner we didn't?

This is my issue with how the SC network has been marketed to people. In fact I know of two separate people who live close to Hawthorne who were specifically sold the SC network instead of a HPWC. There are plenty of early adopters who are true believers but there are many people who are now purchasing the MS as a legitimate alternative to a different brand high end vehicle, and "free" fuel is a selling point. The communication on this is fuzzy at best.

To be clear, filling up at a SC would be a waste of time, energy and effort for me unless I was going long distance but I'm not sure I have any more right to a product I paid for (access to the SC network) than the next gur. Ive taken a trip to Hawthorne and seen every single bay full with 2 cars waiting and I just don't think there are that many people traveling long distance. Perhaps Tesla may need to create a Local only bay? Would be easy enough to do with programming based on VIN and home address. Just thinking out loud there. there are plenty of reasons a local may fill at a SC station: HPWC malfunction, need to fill faster due to total miles driven, who knows? But how is it my place to say?

I'm just a little concerned we get on tenuous and bordering on elitist ground when we start prioritizing who's access to a product they paid for should get preference over another.
 
#11
There is a fundamental issue with having Superchargers just BETWEEN destinations, which is that adequate charging does not currently exist AT destinations. For example, I travel from the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe every year for a golf tournament. It would be easy to get there with a slight detour to Folsom to supercharge. The issue is that there is currently no Level 2 charging that I know in Truckee CA where I stay, and I can't take the Model S to Reno and leave it there overnight to charge.

However if you put Superchargers at destinations, it invites locals to get a quick free charge while they are shopping/dining/etc., limiting access for those who are visiting and need to charge for local travel or to make it to first Supercharger on their return trip. At some point this will need to be addressed IMO.
 
#12
Let's say someone has a very long commute and on the way home they have just enough power to hit their "local" supercharger, so they need to stop there for 5-10 minutes for enough power to get home every night. Limiting how many times you can use your "local" supercharger really doesn't work.

I don't know what the solution is, but I hope that local charging for the sake of saving a few bucks isn't worth most people's time.
 
#13
For every artificial limit there is a valid use case that would violate it.
TMC has marketed the SC network as unlimited access. They may have intended it for long distance trips only, Elon may even have said this somewhere at some point, but the fact is that all the marketing is about unlimited access.
Can I envision driving to an SC instead of charging at home? No. But do I want people to tell me that I can't do that? Certainly not. I paid a lot of money for SC access...
 
#14
dennis said:
There is a fundamental issue with having Superchargers just BETWEEN destinations, which is that adequate charging does not currently exist AT destinations. For example, I travel from the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe every year for a golf tournament. It would be easy to get there with a slight detour to Folsom to supercharge. The issue is that there is currently no Level 2 charging that I know in Truckee CA where I stay, and I can't take the Model S to Reno and leave it there overnight to charge.

However if you put Superchargers at destinations, it invites locals to get a quick free charge while they are shopping/dining/etc., limiting access for those who are visiting and need to charge for local travel or to make it to first Supercharger on their return trip. At some point this will need to be addressed IMO.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree. Here is my thought... It's more convenient for me to plug in at home than it is to go to a SC. Unless I had need for it I cant see going to the local SC, but I think as the network gets expanded even with HPWC's, this will become less and less of an issue.
 
#15
montgom626 said:
I would never travel to a SC to charge unless I was on a trip. What a waste of time. My 14-50 can recharge my P85 in a matter of hours. The "hassle" of traveling to a SC to fill up the main battery versus doing it at home would be an utter waste of time. While charging at home I can spend my time at home, doing what I love versus sitting at a SC for an hour charging my MS. Also, I assume TMC can track SC users. TMC will know in weeks if in fact this SC use by folks is an issue. TMC knows where we live, the location of our MS, the VIN#, etc. I would be embarrassed if I was using a SC to get a charge to avoid 20 kW of power at my home.

This would be like the person who drives 20 miles to save a ten cents on a gallon of gas. The novelty of "free electricity" will wear off very soon as the hassle takes over.
Click to expand...

Agreed for S and X owners. Not so sure about E as energy costs will increase. TM has to take this into account and watch the current telemetry change overtime as the novelty wears off.
 
#16
dennis said:
There is a fundamental issue with having Superchargers just BETWEEN destinations, which is that adequate charging does not currently exist AT destinations. For example, I travel from the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe every year for a golf tournament. It would be easy to get there with a slight detour to Folsom to supercharge. The issue is that there is currently no Level 2 charging that I know in Truckee CA where I stay, and I can't take the Model S to Reno and leave it there overnight to charge.

However if you put Superchargers at destinations, it invites locals to get a quick free charge while they are shopping/dining/etc., limiting access for those who are visiting and need to charge for local travel or to make it to first Supercharger on their return trip. At some point this will need to be addressed IMO.
Click to expand...

True, there are times when it would be nice to have a SC near your destination on a roadtrip, but in general having a Level II will suffice. For your example on your trip to Tahoe and Reno, Tesla is planning to have SC along the I-80 route, so you should have no problem to venture down to Reno and then back to Tahoe. I would also bet money that Truckee will have at least some Level IIs, whether at hotels or inns or businesses, in a very short time, so that if you make it up the hill and you weren't planning to drive another 50-100 miles the very next day on a non-SC route, a Level II for a few hours would be plenty.

Update: According to Plugshare, there are actually two Level II chargers in Truckee. One is at the Cedar House Sport Hotel. Plugshare has a couple of pictures of it being used by two different MS.
 
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#18
I don't see why it's a problem. Those people who are near SC's paid the same price as I did and they have the same rights to 'free' charging as the guy who's on an extended road trip. What if that guy/gal who uses SC's all the time because it makes all sense. Say that person makes a living by driving tons of miles and he needs to use the SC's all the time? He found MS was the answer to all of his problems.
Last thing Tesla needs is bad PR by going back on their word. That along would cost them millions in potential customer and billions in market cap. It make more sense/cents to expand their networks, increase number of charging bays, and keeping doing positive and constructive things.
 
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