Page 63 of 66 FirstFirst ... 13535960616263646566 LastLast
Results 621 to 630 of 659

Thread: What is Tesla's upcoming 'under your nose' announcement?

  1. #621
    Model S VIN #4925 FredTMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Orange County CA
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhemm View Post
    While the could technically do this, I don't think it would go over well. People have come to expect announcements to be reserved for ready-to-deploy products/services, not some arbitrary "this will be available at some undisclosed future date" tease.
    I'm guessing it'll be exactly this demo of air metal tech but TM will say its coming within 12-18 months. Certainly not 2-3 years out. That's too far in future. They need to present that its design being finalized and production design starting soon. Available in 12-18 mo

  2. #622
    Model S P85+ "Lola" Mayhemm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    1,486
    Quote Originally Posted by JRP3 View Post
    The Model X demo, and the first supercharger demo, are both examples of Tesla showing something that isn't exactly ready for deployment.
    Apologies. I should have specified that I was referring to the latest "round" of announcements (loaners, financing, supercharger #2) rather than the older ones.
    P85+| Arrest-me Red/ Tan Leather Seats | Carbon Fiber Trim | 21" Grey Turbine | Parking Sensors | Sub-zero | Pano | UHFSS | Twin Chargers + HPWC | Extended Nappa | Fog Lights | Spoiler | Red Calipers | Premium Lighting | Ordered + Confirmed: 2/13/2014 | VIN: 35668 (2/24/2014) | Production: April 11-17 | Delivery: May 2, 2014!

  3. #623
    Senior Member stopcrazypp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,561
    Quote Originally Posted by pfq1982 View Post
    Tesla already gets the extra ZEVs for meeting the fast refuel requirement.
    Source? I have seen no good estimates of how many credits and how much money Tesla actually gets per car for the Model S.

    Just some cold water for the people posting things about Al-air batteries in the frunk, I think people are over-simplifying things.

    First of all, such a battery will need a high voltage (400V) socket that will need to be connected by the user and that socket will need to do a similar handshake like the supercharger for safety. I would think there would be some evidence of this in the frunk if it existed.

    Keep in mind Phinergy never once said how many kWh their pack actually holds and if you see the video the pack is big/heavy enough to need two people to carry. They have thrown around the number of 25kg as the weight, but it's unclear whether this refers to the 50 aluminum plates (anode) only or the entire pack.

    The 8kWh/kg number published by Phinergy is actually the theoretical limit of the aluminum itself (does not include the cathode, electrolyte, CO2 barrier, cell/pack enclosure, cell interconnects, real world inefficiencies). Wikipedia references a paper that says 1.3-2kWh/kg for current and projected Al-air batteries. That gives 50kWh for a 25kg pack. Sure that's much better than Li-ion batteries, but is that good enough for range extension?

    Power is the bigger issue. Theoretical specific power is 0.2kW/kg, so that only provides 5kW of power for 25kg, definitely not near enough power to act as a "range extender". A small car would need 15-20kW for a generator for highway travel. I suspect given the "1000 miles" of range claim by Phinergy, the pack is closer to 200kWh and 100kg given 2kWh/kg, to provide the 15-20kW necessary to serve as a range extender. And a 100kg (220lb) pack is not practical for one person to lift (although possible with two people).
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010...-20100323.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumini...%93air_battery
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer
    Last edited by stopcrazypp; 2013-06-07 at 01:04 AM.
    Because there are tons of crazy people in this world...

  4. #624
    Senior Member WarpedOne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Slovenia, Europe
    Posts
    1,536
    Look here
    It is not California, it is New Jersey but nevertheless: MS85 is listed as Type V vehicle and MS60 as type IV vehicle.

    They define Type V as:
    Type V ZEV has a range of equal to or greater than 300 miles, must be capable of replacing 95% maximum rated energy capacity in <= 15 minutes.
    and Type IV as:
    Type IV ZEV has a range of equal to or greater than 200 miles, must be capable of replacing 95% maximum rated energy capacity in <= 15 minutes.
    Clearly, SuperChargers don't replace 95% rated energy capacity in less than 15 minutes. Not with MS85 nor with MS60.
    What did TM show them to get Type V moniker?
    I believe in Tesla as a concept, a brand, and a suite of products. No matter who conceived, started, runs, or maintains, I hope it ultimately prevails and lasts.
    -- TEG


  5. #625
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    3,989
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedOne View Post
    Look here
    It is not California, it is New Jersey but nevertheless: MS85 is listed as Type V vehicle and MS60 as type IV vehicle.

    They define Type V as:


    and Type IV as:


    Clearly, SuperChargers don't replace 95% rated energy capacity in less than 15 minutes. Not with MS85 nor with MS60.
    What did TM show them to get Type V moniker?
    That is VERY interesting....nice find.
    P85. VIN05837. Mileage (05/13/14): 48,000mi, Black | Tan Leather | Perf Seats | Obeche Glossy | Pano | Tech | Sound Studio | Air | Spoiler | Parcel Shelf | Twin Chargers | HPWC | Fog | Extended Trim | Alcantara | Premium Lighting, Aftermkt: XPEL | 40/20% Tint | Lighted T | 19" Tsportline TST Grey Turbines | 255/45ZR19 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3

  6. #626
    Senior Member JRP3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    7,083
    I agree with stopcrazypp, the metal air range extender idea is less than likely.

  7. #627
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,142
    Quote Originally Posted by stopcrazypp View Post
    The 8kWh/kg number published by Phinergy is actually the theoretical limit of the aluminum itself (does not include the cathode, electrolyte, CO2 barrier, cell/pack enclosure, cell interconnects, real world inefficiencies). Wikipedia references a paper that says 1.3-2kWh/kg for current and projected Al-air batteries. That gives 50kWh for a 25kg pack. Sure that's much better than Li-ion batteries, but is that good enough for range extension?

    Power is the bigger issue. Theoretical specific power is 0.2kW/kg, so that only provides 5kW of power for 25kg, definitely not near enough power to act as a "range extender". A small car would need 15-20kW for a generator for highway travel. I suspect given the "1000 miles" of range claim by Phinergy, the pack is closer to 200kWh and 100kg given 2kWh/kg, to provide the 15-20kW necessary to serve as a range extender. And a 100kg (220lb) pack is not practical for one person to lift (although possible with two people).
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010...-20100323.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumini...%93air_battery
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer
    Well, you're assuming a serial range-extender that fully drives the car at any speed. If you think of it instead as an assist pack, you could have a half-size pack providing 10kW and then you'd only be drawing 5-10kW from the main pack, which would also get the benefit of any regen. If you have 30kWh usable lithium-ion 7.5kW is 4 hours of driving. The assist pack could also trickle-charge the Li-ion pack at any stop.

    50kg is still heavy, but easy to install with the help of a simple machine and would work nicely in a rental model.

    Nothing coming yet, but I think it's a possible model for the future.

    For June 20th just fixing the damn vampire issue while hiding the fact they had the problem under a barrage of other in-car upgrades and notifications of the beginning of shipping to Europe would be more than enough. And it would help to say "Oh Q2 financials seem to be better than we expected (tee-hee, take that shorties)."
    Last edited by ItsNotAboutTheMoney; 2013-06-07 at 06:26 AM.

  8. #628
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    133
    Seems to me that the metal-air, or similar. hybrid battery pack range extender is the only option discussed here so far that is likely.

  9. #629
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    US-Missouri
    Posts
    31
    Under your nose...How about a spare battery pack that could be picked up at the supercharger location and would fit under the hood. Might be pretty heavy, but perhaps air suspension system could compensate and maybe an auto loading mechanism could take it in and out. When you get to the next charge station, you swap it out. Just a thought....

  10. #630
    Senior Member WarpedOne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Slovenia, Europe
    Posts
    1,536
    50kg is still heavy, but easy to install with the help of a simple machine and would work nicely in a rental model.
    There is *no* need for it to be a single 50 kg block. Make it into 5 cartridges @ 10kg each or something similar.
    What is even more important and useful is that there is only one real limit how many of such blocks one could take along - max curb weight.
    Connect 5 cartridges, add 5 in frunk and another 5 in trunk, range charge and voila 230kWh or ~700 miles of autonomy (with 2kWh/kg modules).
    When main battery and those 5 connected modules get depleted, just stop *anywhere* and connect other 5 modules, ~2 minutes. Repeat after another 150miles if not sooner.

    Such modules would have another big use (assuming no internal leakage): electric reserve - just buy some and put them into frunk. When stalled/in danger of stallin - connect.

    This thing must happen. If not by Tesla than by someone else.

    How about a spare battery pack that could be picked up at the supercharger location and would fit under the hood. Might be pretty heavy,
    I assume you mean same battery chemistry as in main pack i.e. LiIon 18650 3100mAh - these have ~250Wh/kg.
    A 50kg block without liquid cooling and all that safety stuff would hold 12kWh and add about 30 miles of range.
    A 50kg block with liquid cooling and all that safety stuff as in main pack would hold ~6kWh and add about 15 miles of range.
    It is not worth the trouble.
    Last edited by WarpedOne; 2013-06-07 at 07:09 AM.
    I believe in Tesla as a concept, a brand, and a suite of products. No matter who conceived, started, runs, or maintains, I hope it ultimately prevails and lasts.
    -- TEG


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Tesla Motors Third Announcement: Service
    By aznt1217 in forum Tesla Motors
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 2013-04-14, 09:25 AM
  2. Upcoming events in DC/MD/VA!
    By mczajka in forum Mid-Atlantic
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 2013-04-05, 05:26 AM
  3. Upcoming summer Maryland EV Meetups
    By mczajka in forum Mid-Atlantic
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2012-06-19, 07:13 PM
  4. Enertia GT, Upcoming Electric Super Car
    By dsacks6 in forum Electric Vehicles
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 2007-08-12, 04:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •