Charging Station standards

[ra-san]

That is assuming that Tesla is amenable to having other companies use their plug/socket too...

That's really what I've been wondering - has Tesla stated they are open to the design being used as a standard (and have they done anything to push that), or do they consider it part of their advantage to keep it to themselves only.

I throw up a little when I look at the pics of the other connectors. Huge, big, and ugly (yes, I know in effect said their size twice… that's how big they look). Oh, and ugly too.


… I'd use them if I needed a charge and they were what existed though

[richkae]

I completely disagree. There are already three charger manufacturers (and large ones at that) attending EVS26 that have committed to making dual CHAdeMO and SAE chargers (not just ones that can be retrofitted in a later date). They even showed an example at the show. And the US/state government is much more likely to back an SAE standard (same with IEC on the European side). Keep in mind J1772 stations started appearing in mid-2010 before even one car was out that can use it (the Leaf and Volt launched at the end of 2010):
What Charging Connector? J1772

Given the Spark will be released as a 2013 model year car, I expect the first SAE DC station to start appearing near the end of this year. The Spark/Beat EV prototypes have a 20kWh pack with a123 cells (which can take a 2C charge easily) so it shouldn't be any worse than a Leaf using CHAdeMO. Personally in terms of large volume, I think the car to look for is the BMW i3, which will launch in Germany in 2013.

Keep in mind the Tesla connector is electrically compatible with the SAE DC connector and the signaling is similar. Even the max power rating is exactly the same (90kW)! CHAdeMO is completely different in that it requires a CAN bus and max power rating is 50kW. That means it's much easier to built a dual Tesla/SAE DC charger or just built an SAE DC charger and have the Model S use an adapter. Heck I bet the supercharger can also be converted to support SAE relatively easily.

The first Chevy Spark will be a gas car, the EV version is not scheduled to appear until 2013. I am not going to hold my breath. That could mean a token appearance at the end of 2013, with "volume" in 2014.
I should have said "with *just* an SAE DC connector" - I can see someone being talked into a dual unit with a "useless for at least 1.5 years SAE DC connector" but I think it will take quite the sales job.
I just dont see anyone installing stations for cars that dont exist when they can install ones for cars that do.

The timing of the level 2 J1772 is a different animal - they were competing with vacuum. SAE DC is going to be an entirely different story.

I think it would be best for everyone ( the consumer ) if the Tesla plug won. But I would be super happy if SAE DC + Tesla won because- as you said - it should be an easy ( cheap ) thiong to make.

[richkae]

That's really what I've been wondering - has Tesla stated they are open to the design being used as a standard (and have they done anything to push that), or do they consider it part of their advantage to keep it to themselves only.

I throw up a little when I look at the pics of the other connectors. Huge, big, and ugly (yes, I know in effect said their size twice… that's how big they look). Oh, and ugly too.


… I'd use them if I needed a charge and they were what existed though

So far the SAE DC effort is completely consistent with a strategy to FUD the EV world. They couldn't have made the connector any less appealing or more frightening unless they put fangs and a big DANGER ELECTRIC SCARY sign on it.

I'm not saying that its intent is actually FUD, just that at this point it is indistinguishable between a real strategy and FUD to slow the adoption of the EVs already on the market.

[richkae]

I completely disagree. There are already three charger manufacturers (and large ones at that) attending EVS26 that have committed to making dual CHAdeMO and SAE chargers (not just ones that can be retrofitted in a later date).

I am no longer interested in commitments and announcements. When I see installations I will be less skeptical. Lets see how many CHAdeMO units are installed in the US over the next 1.5 years and how many dual mode units.

I will be happy to be proven wrong.

[vfx]

...
That is assuming that Tesla is amenable to having other companies use their plug/socket too...

Are they in it for the money or do they want exclusivity for Model S owners thereby selling more cars and making more money?

[stopcrazypp]

The first Chevy Spark will be a gas car, the EV version is not scheduled to appear until 2013. I am not going to hold my breath. That could mean a token appearance at the end of 2013, with "volume" in 2014.
I should have said "with *just* an SAE DC connector" - I can see someone being talked into a dual unit with a "useless for at least 1.5 years SAE DC connector" but I think it will take quite the sales job.
I just dont see anyone installing stations for cars that dont exist when they can install ones for cars that do.

I see any federal government funded (fully or partially) stations favoring SAE over CHAdeMO. CARB also has a history of pushing mandates that favor SAE, although I'm not sure of other states. And I don't think the lifetime of most stations is just 1 or 2 years, so the person buying a unit will likely look a bit further than that.

The timing of the level 2 J1772 is a different animal - they were competing with vacuum. SAE DC is going to be an entirely different story.

They did have one competitor: the Tesla Roadster connector. It was the only production EV made in any significant number at that point. The legacy connectors at that point were AVCON and Magna Charge. The idea back then and I think it still applies now is to have a couple of stations ready before cars that use it come out. The chicken or the egg kind of thing.

I think it would be best for everyone ( the consumer ) if the Tesla plug won. But I would be super happy if SAE DC + Tesla won because- as you said - it should be an easy ( cheap ) thiong to make.

I agree with this, but I don't think the Tesla plug will win, given Tesla isn't making much of or really any effort to promote it to other automakers. I hoping for the second best option, which is SAE DC + Tesla winning. The scenario I picture for non-superchargers is dual CHAdeMO/SAE stations in the next couple of years (before it's 100% clear which one will "win") then slowly moving to SAE only as CHAdeMO cars near their end of live or are converted/adapted to SAE.

I favor SAE DC for a couple of other reasons besides from easily compatibility with Tesla's connector:
- The cost to make the connector is much cheaper than CHAdeMO (because of less pins and commonality with J1772 connectors, which are already made in mass volume).
- There's no concerns about possible licensing required in the future.
- It incorporates both Level 2 and Level 3 charging, so there is no need for a separate connector for both.
- It supports V2G (CHAdeMO doesn't).
- It supports more power (90kW vs 50kW of CHAdeMO).

[TEG]

...I favor SAE DC for a couple of other reasons besides from easily compatibility with Tesla's connector:
... It incorporates both Level 2 and Level 3 charging, so there is no need for a separate connector for both.
...

The car can have a dual purpose socket that can accept a J1772 AC plug or a SAE DC combo plug... but the plug itself isn't dual purpose.
The plug on the combo charger can't plug into a vehicle with only an AC J1772 socket. For instance, no plugging an SAE Combo into an existing LEAF, or Volt... The DC sub-assembly physically gets in the way of plugging in the AC part to cars without the DC socket part.

[stopcrazypp]

The car can have a dual purpose socket that can accept a J1772 AC plug or a SAE DC combo plug... but the plug itself isn't dual purpose.
The plug on the combo charger can't plug into a vehicle with only an AC J1772 socket. For instance, no plugging an SAE Combo into an existing LEAF, or Volt... The DC sub-assembly physically gets in the way of plugging in the AC part to cars without the DC socket part.

I should have worded it more carefully. It combines both into one socket (saving space on the car). As you pointed out, you still need a different level 2 connector mainly for legacy/backwards compatibility purposes (it also keeps level 2 connectors smaller/lighter/cheaper). Although the spec was actually designed to allow you to use a combo connector for AC charging also (meaning a station with a combo connector can be used for both DC and AC charging, although that may not be how it gets implemented by charger manufacturers or configured by station owners, since I'm pretty sure they don't want you hogging a DC station for hours charging on AC).

[doug]

The War Of The Plugs: The Japanese Empire Talks Back | The Truth About Cars

CHAdeMO president Toshiyuki Shiga, normally COO of Leaf-producer Nissan, sets the tone of the meeting by saying that “in the U.S. and in Europe there is a movement to eliminate the CHAdeMO by making the combo a regional standard.” That snub probably is too subtle for American ears, but the Germans will get it and will be appropriately outraged.

The war of the plugs is on. Currently, it is only a war of words. “The Combo” was repeatedly derided today as “the plug without the cars.”
...

Asked which side of the plug wars 350green will be on, Gerzanych answers: “None. We will put both plugs on our fast chargers.”

Doing this is no big deal, various techies at the meeting tell me. The plug represents less than five percent of the cost of the system.

[stopcrazypp]

The War Of The Plugs: The Japanese Empire Talks Back | The Truth About Cars
Asked which side of the plug wars 350green will be on, Gerzanych answers: “None. We will put both plugs on our fast chargers.”

Doing this is no big deal, various techies at the meeting tell me. The plug represents less than five percent of the cost of the system.

This is exactly what I expect charger manufacturers to do. They aren't stupid. It's quite clear almost all non-Japanese automakers, plus SAE and IEC will back the combo plug. Yes, there are no cars that can use it now, but in 1-2 years (which isn't that long of a time in terms of charger life-time, esp. considering CHAdeMO has been on the market for around the same amount of time) the first cars will come out that use the combo plug. I expect the Model S will be the first though (via adapter).

Right now CHAdeMO has nothing to worry about in Japan, but there is going to be pressure in the US and Europe. They have to do their best to convince people not to leave existing CHAdeMO cars hanging (from the same article, it looks like it was true that GM sent someone to try to convince CA legislature to completely abandon CHAdeMO going forward).