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Boeing 787 Dreamliner & Battery Issues

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rabar10

Model 3 >> Focus Electric
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Dec 3, 2010
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Indianapolis, IN
Reuters - Most Boeing Dreamliners grounded for battery checks

I wondered when the FUD tie-ins to EVs would happen...

AP - Lithium batteries central to Boeing 787 woes
The 787 is the first airliner to make extensive use of lithium-ion batteries to help power its energy-hungry electrical systems. The batteries charge faster and can be better molded to space-saving shapes compared with other airplane batteries.

"Unfortunately, what Boeing did to save weight is use the same batteries that are in the electric cars, and they are running into the same problems with the 787 as the problems that have shown up in electric cars," said Paul Czysz, professor emeritus of aeronautical engineering at St. Louis University.

The lithium-ion batteries in several Chevrolet Volts used for crash-testing caught fire in 2011. General Motors engineers eventually figured out that the fires were the result of a battery coolant leak that caused electrical shorts after side-impact crash tests. GM retrofitted the car with more steel to protect the battery. No fires were ever reported on real-world roads.

This quote from Dr. Czysz is a cheap shot. Yes, Li-ions require special handling, and Boeing needs to figure out what's going on here, but I highly doubt these aircraft battery issues were caused by a battery coolant leak, and they certainly weren't the result of crash-testing. Separate issues.
 
There was an article here today in a technical magazine that blamed the battery chemistry: Article

This is the relevant bit, where it's shown how prone to thermal runaway the different chemistries are. The batteries in question are LiCoO2 which weren't entirely stable.
1200013182.jpg


I'm sure there's also some design error in the battery packs, which allow them to go into thermal runaway in the first place. (Or maybe faulty cells?)
 
There are all kinds of hazardous materials in an airplane, e.g. kerosene. Vapours from kerosene have caused airplanes to blow out of the sky.

Preventing that is a matter of careful design and operation to eliminate the risks. The process for getting an aircraft certified as incredibly thorough. Due to that level of attention, mechanical causes of aircraft accidents are actually pretty rare. Boeing and the supplier of that component have both made a serious error in design, testing, and validation.

I should also point that a car that catches on fire can be stopped and abandoned in a few seconds. Not so for an airplane.
 
Boeing & Battery Issue

Is there a comparability between the lithium batteries being used in the Boeing Dreamliner and the Tesla Model S? Given the current news events regarding potential concerns with lithium batteries allegedly causing concerns in the Boeing Dreamliner fleet it would seem prudent for Tesla to clarify if there is or why there should not be any similar issue or concern.

I would assume that this is a factual question and other posters may well know the answer to this question.
 
Lithium-ion batteries pack a lot of energy and challenges | Business & Technology | The Seattle Times
...“It’s clear that there are some issues associated with thermal management,” said Donald Sadoway, a battery expert and the John F. Elliott Professor of Materials Chemistry at MIT...
...Tesla roadsters addressed the issue by using thousands of little, finger-sized batteries, clustered together...
...Boeing is the first company to use lithium-ion technology for the main batteries in a commercial airplane. The supplier of those recently also won a contract to upgrade the international space station to lithium-ion batteries...
...Boeing seems to have “an engineering issue that just has to be resolved. But I would be surprised if they don’t continue to use lithium-ion batteries in the 787.”...
...Based on information posted on its website, Boeing supplier GS Yuasa appears to be using lithium cobalt oxide cathode material...

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.technologyreview.com/new...eamliners-use-batteries-prone-to-overheating/
...
Lithium-ion batteries have been known to cause fires in cell phones, laptops, and electric vehicles. But such problems are extremely rare, and usually result from damage to the battery—such as piercing or overcharging—or problems with the manufacturing process that introduce flaws in the cells.
Boeing’s 787 is the first commercial aircraft to use lithium-ion batteries, according to GS Yuasa, the Japanese battery manufacturer that supplies the batteries. The company also supplies batteries for the International Space Station and electric railcars, among other applications.
The chemistry—and safety—of lithium-ion batteries varies. According to GS Yuasa’s website, the batteries it uses for Boeing’s 787 use lithium cobalt oxide electrodes. These are known for high-energy storage capacity, but other battery chemistries, such as lithium iron phosphate, are more resistant to overheating. Because of safety concerns, many electric vehicle makers have shifted to alternative chemistries, sacrificing some energy storage capacity...

http://www.s399157097.onlinehome.us/SpecSheets/LVP10-65.pdf
...“Inappropriate handling or application of the cells can result in reduced cell life and performance, electrolyte leakage, high cell temperatures, and even the possibility of smoke generation and fire.”...
 
We've been using these things on satellites (e.g. LiNi-AlCoO2 chemistry) for a decade without mishap, and they take some real abuse during the launch and can claim a lifetime to 80% of 18 years. So there is nothing fundamentally novel about aerospace use of Li-ion.
 
Tesla already engineered in protection for this. The Roadster uses the same LiCoO2 chemistry as the GS Yuasa pack in the 787 and Tesla has numerous safety features built into the pack, specifically to address the "thermal runaway" (AKA fire) risk:
http://large.stanford.edu/publications/coal/references/docs/tesla.pdf

For one, the Tesla pack can't "overheat" because it's thermally managed to be at optimal temperature. That doesn't look to be the case for the Boeing pack. But as dpeilow says in the other thread, the same chemistry has been used in satellites for a long time and it didn't have any issues, so I take it there is more to this story.

The Model S uses a more advanced NCA chemistry and it should be even safer than LiCoO2. The pack also has all of the same safety features as the Roadster's. And given there have been no fire issues to date for Tesla (while there have been fires for other EV manufacturers, although none of them have been battery related) I don't think there's anything to worry about.
 
Remember Boeing has only 100 battery packs in service (2 per plane), Tesla has maybe 5000 now between the Roadster and Model-S over a far longer period. No idea what Boeing's problem is, but Tesla has done a great job in designing a safe, reliable battery pack. If you're interested, look over some of the Tesla patents and it's quite amazing all the things they have done to make it safe. They really are way ahead of anyone else.
 
Is there a comparability between the lithium batteries being used in the Boeing Dreamliner and the Tesla Model S? Given the current news events regarding potential concerns with lithium batteries allegedly causing concerns in the Boeing Dreamliner fleet it would seem prudent for Tesla to clarify if there is or why there should not be any similar issue or concern.

Nope. Not whatsoever. Completely different chemistry. Common misconception when the media uses the term "Lithium Ion" all over the place. That actually does not describe the chemistry of the battery but instead a range of battery types. Let me explain.

The term "lithium ion" actually refers to an extended family of batteries that all use lithium ions moving from negative to positive to release electrons that provide electricity. The Dreamliner uses lithium cobalt dioxide (LiCoO2). A123's batteries use lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). There's many others but won't get into that here. You may have heard that model S and the Roadster both use the 18650 form factor for li-ion cells. This is not chemistry, but rather the size of the better (kinda like having different CPU's all fitting the same socket on a computer's motherboard). There are many types of these form factor cells on the market, and they can vary in the chemistry that's used. The Tesla ROADSTER does indeed use LiCoO2, same as the Dreamliner, that was the only EV in the world that used that chemistry. No other auto does. The Model S however, is using brand new Panasonic 18650 cells with a much better density. Tesla Motors won't disclose much detail about it as battery management is their core IP, so I don't think we know for sure what exactly they are using now in the S. What we do know is that they are using this new 18650 cell from Panasonic. Based on known info about the Model S's battery, such as the energy density increase of the new cells, the weight increase of the battery, and a mention that it uses a quarter less cobalt, the cells are probably NCA (LiNiCoAl02 cathode and graphite anode). Combine that with the fact that Panasonic just started production of those NCA cells in 2012, you can deduce that is what probably is used in the Model S. http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-and-panasonic-partner-on-roadster-model-s-battery-packs/

With that said, again to answer your original question, there is absolutely no relation between the battery used in the Boeing and the Model S as the chemistry types are completely different. Any media report that says otherwise or compares the Dreamliner's battery to ANY electric vehicle at all (excluding the Roadster which is discontinued), proves that they just don't know what they are talking about.
 
Absolutely right. This is a either design or manufacturing problem - perhaps both. There's nothing intrinsically unsafe about lithium-ion technology. There are all kinds of systems on that airplane that have to work correctly or everyone dies. The fact is that airplanes are incredibly well engineered. Engineers are human and occasionally make mistakes, but the safety record of the industry is pretty impressive overall.
 
Quite a bit of information about Tesla's battery management can be gleaned from its patents. Among other things, each cell is individually fused to protect them against shorting. Cells are also monitored for temperature and load. Some of these features are for safety and others are aimed at maximizing the cells' useful life. It sounds unlikely that Boeing went nearly as far with these external features.