chimpanzee

OK, Martin is let go along with Wally Rippel (Aerovironment engineer for GM EV1, Caltech alumni). Thus, alienating any future Caltech or UIUC involvement. Believe me, words travels fast. I heard on a comment, something to the effect "..& his Stanford buddies", I assume this is JDS.

I will say, JDS background is impressive, his Stanford engineering background. The "engineering issue" (instantaneous torque curve of AC Induction motor, resulting in severe shockload to transmissions) had an incorrect response: a personnel issue, blaming Martin & his group (incl Wally Rippel). xxx made a mistake in engineering assessment..IT WILL LIKELY HAPPEN AGAIN. I heard about morale being at a low (earlier in the year).

Is this Drivetrain 1.5? (with the water cooling package for the motor, because the single speed would require higher rpm). What happened with the Death Valley testing? I can tell you, having been at CART (& Champcar) races & smelling burnt electronics (any EE major will tell you that sickly smell), that lack of heat dissipation will destroy electronics in no time. You often hear about Indycars doing ignition-box swaps mid-race, I believe this is heat-related problems. I remember one time where Sebastien Bourdais (Newman-Haas Racing) did such a swap, & they used WIRELESS to update the firmware in the pit-area! (pretty state-of-the-art).

Xtrac recently solved the breakage problem in Offroad Racing: the severe shockload on trannies when a XXXX Class 1 buggy gets airborne & lands on the ground. The situation is not unlike the situation in a Tesla Roadster (2-speed tranny + AC Induction motor). I know this team XXXX (they are one of my best supporters, my Jumplive.com multimedia project), they are heavily sponsored by European-based sponsors: exhaust, torque-limiter, etc. They were using torque-limiters (similar to above for Tesla Roadster, see above) to de-tune the extreme response of the motors. There was a year of breakage for this XXXX team (2007), but finally this year Xtrac figured it out: XXXX got 1st place at the recent 08 San Felipe 250 (!). Their 1st win ever! They followed it up, with a 3rd place (podium finish) for the Baja 500. They just added another car: European driver, teamed with a young American hotshot driver. This team is on a roll.

Lesson learned:
It took TIME for Xtrac to do the empirical testing.

"In order to Push the Limits [ of Technology ], sometimes you have to EXCEED THE LIMITS"
-- Australian GP, Formula 1 race (2003?)

The tranny breakage issue is obviously 1 of the above problems, & this SH*T TAKES TIME TO FIGURE OUT!! xxxx has this "bizarre notion" that you can "throw money at the problem" & solves problems instatneously. Bzzzt..wrong! What "Reality Distortion Field" does this guy live in?? And, he is in charge of SpaceX?? ROTFL!! Wasn't there a recent failed attempt..again?

This is why xxx's impulsive response, by incorrectly blaming Martin & Wally Rippel, is such a black mark. Not only did it hurt current TM development, it probably jeopardized the entire company's future. You think any Caltech or UIUC alumni (or ANY engineering school alumni), will work for TM, knowing that the top management is engineering-foolish??

I've been repeatedly saying on TMC posts, the value of an R&D test program. Both:

1) empirical testing via Auto Racing
Real World Knowledge. Take Ford Motor Co, they used to have a SVO/Special Vehicle Operations headed by Michael Kranefuss. I last met him in '93, at the Long Beach Grand Prix, when Robby Gordon (offroad racing phenome) was racing for AJ Foyt. All the big names in Automotive (Honda, BMW, Renault, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, et al) are involved with auto racing, especially Formula 1. It PAYS to race, not just marketing for brand-name-recognition, but "real world" knowledge learned on the race-track.

2) analytical approach, via Simulation (Monte Carlo methods, FEM/Finite Element Method)
Book Knowledge. Engineering & Applied Science is what Caltech calls it. 1 of Caltech's Mechanical Eng profs is on leave to Northrop-Grumman, to explore the Aerospace + Alternative Energy paradigm. All the expertise developed in Aerospace, can be applied to Green Tech. I'm recently in touch with 1 of my Dad's PhD students, who is very high up in Northrop-Grumman. I need to have a meeting with Martin, to discuss an Interdisciplinary Cooperative/Collaborative R&D Program (bridging the gap between Academia & Industry, & also cross-disciplinary cross pollination). This WILL happen (my own initiative), I'm writing a proposal for it right now. I had some really excited discussions at the recent SIGGRAPH 2008 conference, incl a German engineering prof associated with Fraunhofer Inst (known for pro-active investigation of engineering problems). Since Telsa Motors is opening the European markets (incl Germany), this sounds like a real opportunity. Whether Martin wants to be part of it, is another question.

2) is my Dad's specialty, he was AAE/Aeronautical & Astronautical Eng prof @UIUC (in the same building Coordinated Science Laboratory, when Martin was a summer intern '81 at our AARG/Advanced Automation Research Group). He hired Dr. Michael Selig (wind tunnel aerodynamicist, who also dabbles in analytical approaches like Genetic Algorithms), who consulted for Newman-Haas for 6 races (got Michael Andretti 3 wins). Alan Cocconi used a Selig airfoil, for his 2005 aviation project. Last I heard (2006), he is involved with a similar project & doing mountain biking in Utah (he drives a Subaru wagon..what else!)

I've been in touch with some Academics, SDSU & Caltech. The Caltech guy (Dept Head, Nonlinear Dynamics & Control) had 1 of his students end up at Williams F1. The other guy, is the main Academic contact for Formula 1. He almost left Academia to work for a F1 team. The top F1 teams have annual budgets of 200 million. Xtrac is heavily involved with various motorsports (Formula 1, Rally Racing). CORR (Championship Offroad Racing) is a new startup (you might have seen the LIVE TV coverage on Sat or Sun, on NBC), where Xtrac has some Pro 2 clients. I know both of these teams well. If Xtrac solved XXXX (for Desert Racing), I expect similar success for these 2 teams (in Short Course Racing). This knowledge, might have a cross-over effect to Tesla Motors pavement application.

That's why I'm advocating an Interdisciplinary Collaborative/Cooperative R&D Program (bridging the gap between Academia & Industry, & also disciplines).

End of Lecture.

You can see Xtrac (Andrew Heard) at:

BITD Las Vegas 300
[ he is incorrectly labelled at Eric Heard ]

BITD Parker 425: Contingency
[ that's none other than Robby Gordon of NASCAR fame, checking out Xtrac transmissions. This is the offroad equivalent of a tranny, which has severe shock loads: airborne cars land, creating stress ]

TEG

"chimpanzee", I appreciate all you have to say, and all the people you know, but sometimes I have a little trouble understanding what points you are trying to make. Can you condense and summarize rather than "lecture"?

chimpanzee

I'm laying the foundation to start up ZZZ: an Interdisciplinary Collaborative/Cooperative R&D Institute for Alternative Energy. Those contacts I mentioned means I have a top-down approach to getting it approved/funded. I did something similar in 2006

[ 2 of contractors who did the LIVE Iridium satellite-based vehicle tracking, were XXX & YYY. Turns out the Vice-President & Director of Research of XXX (800 million $$ company, Virginia-based govt contractor) is a UIUC alumni from the same Dept/Specialty as myself & Martin: Artificial Intelligence & Robotics, PhD '94. Within hrs of emailing DARPA, I was talking with Dr. XXX1 & a conference call was setup with him & his lead-engineer. We did a project with a Class 5 racer friend, & got an excited reponse from YYY. Obviously, with Martin's accomplishments & brand-name-recognition, this is playing towards starting ZZZ. Martin might become involved, as part of his next entrepeneurial project ]

& the contacts I just made at SIGGRAPH 2008 (rich field, biggest SIG/Special Interest Group of ACM/Assn of Computing Machinery) looks very promising. The key could be Fraunhofer Inst/Germany (applied research, pro-active search for challenging R&D problems before they arise in Mfr'ing), the contact I made (German engineering prof) immediately understood my concept & reeled off the following potential auto mfr clients:

- Volkswagen
- Daimler-Benz
there are ruminations of some deal between TM & DB
- BMW

The Proof of Concept (empirically based R&D, using Auto Racing) has already been done

[ an American-based offroad racing team, which uses BMW M5 engines & Xtrac trannies..& mostly European-based sponsored parts, got 1st place at the recent San Felipe 250 after extensive Xtrac development. They followed it up with a 3rd place at the Baja 500. They just added another German driver (in addition to their existing Rally champion German driver), plus a young American hotshoe ]

I hate to say it, but the entire Tesla Motors management team (incl Martin & Marc) failed to put in place an R&D program, which would have protected them against the tranny snafu. I always wonder if I had been around at the time, if they would have listened to me (a PhD, who understands the value of R&D). It sounds as if Tesla Motors was mostly "throwing $$ at the problem", & expecting off-the-shelf contracts/products to build the Roadster.

"Life is 20% what happens to you, 80% how you respond to it
-- a wise man once said

Clearly, the "recovery" that Martin is looking for is this ZZZZ R&D outfit (for Alternative Energy companies, in genral. EV, hydrogen cars, solar power, etc). He could easily be the savior to Alternative Energy..not just EV.

In a sense, it's a good thing that he is no longer associated with Tesla Motors (which hasn't understood its past flaws, & made adjustments). He is now in a position of starting anew using new solutions (Interdisciplinary R&D), based on past mistakes @Tesla Motors.

interview with a wealthy businessman:

Q: How did you become so wealthy?
A: I made a lot of mistakes
Q: What??
A: I LEARNED FROM THOSE MISTAKES

I assume Martin has done a lot of soul searching, contemplation, etc. since 12/1/07. I'm trying to stimulate him towards an option. He & I live only a few miles from Caltech campus, who has had an illustrious history in Automotive. Jim Hall (inventor of Ground Effects, used in Formula 1 & Indycar) & A. Cocconi (GM EV1 work). 1 of the Caltech Mech Eng professors is on leave to Northrop-Grumman to exploit the Aerospace + Alternative-Energy paradigm. My dad's PhD student is really high up @Northrop-Grummn (Houston/TX), & I've been in touch with him.

Summary:
"Deals are what the world go 'round"
I'm close to finalizing a concept for a deal, involving Caltech, Fraunhofer, Northrop-Grumman (& other players). Whether Martin wants to be involved, is up to him. Then, it's on to proposal writing (due in Oct, preferably submitted by Sept).

Most of the banter on TMC is passive: response to things happening. My thing is pro-active: actually going out & making things happen.

TEG

Yup. I hope your project/venture/deal works out for you.
Don't you think that having so much of it "out in the open" might jinx it?

doug

Chimpanzee, unlike another forum member we all know (who thankfully isn't around at the moment), I believe you are rational enough to do your own housekeeping. You should be able to tell what's on topic and what's not. Please edit down your posts to what a reasonable 3rd person would consider relevant to this thread. If you wish you can create a new thread in an appropriate section and copy the bulk of what you wrote here.

chimpanzee

You have a point.

There's a certain amount of Confidentiality required for business deals. However, there is an opposing view of Openness, something like the Transparency that Martin & TM were exhibiting with their blogs.

"It comes down to the Customer"

I say this stuff openly, hoping to get feedback from the userbase of TMC. In the end, satisfying client needs is the main thing in ANY BUSINESS. Yeah, I could come up with a concept that I *think* will fly (but, not opening it up to TMC userbase means the concept might be flawed). Some of my contacts are so personal/deep, anyone trying to make a "run" would be blocked.

My intent is to make it work out for EV (& in general Alternative Energy), not me. I'm just an "agent" like Martin. The field of Alternative Energy is truly exciting, not just the subject but the economic potential.


I think clearly the lack of an R&D program hurt Tesla Motors (& still does, to this day), e.g. the transmission breakage issue. JD Straubel (& his staff) seem to be under the gun with engineering R&D (see the recent article). They need an Aerovironment like think-tank (which was contracted by Hughes, a GM contractor for the EV1), to "seek out & destroy" challenging engineering problems. This is where my idea of an Interdisciplinary Collaborative/Cooperative R&D Inst comes in, with some big name universities & companies. UIUC alumni (ironically, contemporaries of Martin at UIUC/Coordinated Science Laboratory/AARG) are at key high-level positions: VP of Georgia-Tech & President of GTRI (whose ex GaTech colleague is now President of Caltech), Director of Research @Intel, Director of UC San Diego/CALIT2. Frauhofer Inst seems to be very interested, this is a good match because of their access to German auto mfrs: Daimler-Benz, BMW, Volkswagen.

Again, any attempt by a 3rd party to use the aforementioned high-level contacts, can be blocked.

chimpanzee

I would just trash the JVC, & get an Alpine unit. Goto your favorite high-end car stereo dealership (e.g. Al & Eds, or even Best Buy & Circuit City..they sell Alpine also), & start shopping. I was in this mode in 2005, & the culmination of my research was that Alpine made the best decks with arguably the best UI (user interface) for iPod.

I put an interesting iPod interface for my 4x4 van. I simply used the external audio jacks, to feed in an Accurian iPod unit (120v -> 12v power unit) that has full remote & video out. Only $30 on sale at Radio Shack. I simply put in a Radio Shack 12v cigarette lighter power unit, to power it from my car. The iPod sits upright in the Accurian unit (I basically use the iPod UI, not an integrated UI in the Alpine, say). The neat thing about this config, is that I can add a small LCD display, to watch iPod videos on!! There are LCD displays with built-in TV tuners, so you have the option of watching TV..while you're driving!!

Here's a picture:

PIC_1300 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The best way to accomplish your goal, is to offer the consumer a competing service/product..which will drive the TM's $1000 annual fee down (or completely away).

I've been thinking of your next move, & I think a cool option would be to start an aftermarket parts/service/accessories company for the Roadster. Such 3rd party
industries thrive in automotive, because (fanatic) customers want to customize their newest toy. Look at the DVD I sent you, the "Voyages" episode for Porsche. That 1 Porsche enthusiast started a Porsche xxx (the gull winged roadster) restoral company, very successful. You could offer:

- better stereo/iPod packages
- tires/wheel packages
Toyo Tires, BFG/Michelin, General Tire, Maxxis (parent company is Ching-Sheng in China) are candidates. Toyo Tires is making a big move into Motorsports, I have contacts with their Marketing & Engineering Dept. Their engineers work REAL CLOSELY with auto racing clients. They won the 06 Baja 1000 4-wheel overall, in Robby Gordon Motorsports TT #83. BFG had an immediate response (because their 20 yr streak of winning Baja 1000 overall was displaced). Maxxis tire is very agressive in the American market, any mountain bikers out there know they spend lots of marketing $$ (event sponsors, etc). Yokohama is cool, very good product (Ivan Stewart, the biggest icon in Offroad Racing aka "The Iron Man", ran Yokohoma on his Toyota).

Get some CAD designers together, & do some cool wheels with aforementioned hungry tire mfrs.

- communications/computer package
throw in mobile satellite Internet (there are packages for Iridium sat-phones, I have one). There's a pricey Inmarsat satellite-DSL solution, around $2.4K. Bluetooth headset. There are mobile-PC solutions for cars, for geek heads who want PC capability in their cars.

Sample customized communications/entertainment package for a $300K offroad-racing pre-runner



Some offroad race cars have bullet cams located all over the car (front & rear looking, suspension monitor, etc) that record to SD cards. You could put in video cameras to eliminate blind spots (this issue just came up for the Roadster)

*A) R&D based products
this is where I may come in, since I plan on submitting a proposal to XXX to do 3rd party R&D for Alternative Energy companies (e.g., TM Roadster). The immediate need, is the transmission. Xtrac recently solved the severe shockload problem for Class 1 offroad cars (airborne cars, landing), which is similar to the shockload of clutchless 2-speed tranny shifting (?). Their client YYY (friends of mine, supporter of my Jumplive.com project) got a 1st place at the recent San Felipe 250, & 3rd place (podium) at the Baja 500. I.e., the "Proof of Concept" is done, it's a simple matter of submitting a proposal, with Xtrac & YYY as R&D partners. I.e., 1 part of the R&D program: Empirical-based R&D ("Real World Knowledge") using Auto Racing. The 2nd part would be an Analytical-based R&D ("Book Knowledge"), involving Math/ComputerPhysics Modeling & Simulation. I.e., FEM/Finite Element Method, Montel Carlo Methods, Genetic Algorithms, CA/Cellular Automata, etc.

Who knows, maybe you can offer a working Xtrac 2-speed (the thing that Elon Musk never had the patience to work through). The Powertrain 1.5 is still suspect: running a 1-speed at higher-revs (more heat generation w/water-cooling, this is potentially bad news: shortens life cycle & prone to failure) is still untested reliability-wise. Weren't they supposed to do such testing in Death Valley this month?


If you are interested in getting involved with A), you need to contact me immediately. I have to do some quick proposal writing, due dates are Oct/Sept. I made some key contacts at SIGGRAPH 2008, 1 of them being Fraunhofer Inst (Famous German-based think-tank applied research outfit). The German CS prof immediately saw the potential, & named Daimler-Benz, Volkswagen, BMW as potential clients. Since there are ruminations of deals/talks between DB & TM, this is even more interesting.

The above solution is a great way of doing "your thing" (Roadster maniac), but shielding yourself from politics (TM management). Same situation for me. We can always fall back on Alternative Energy companies (in general), instead of putting all our marbles in Tesla Motors. They still haven't figured it out, IMO. I.e., not setting up an R&D Program, & putting JD Straubel & his staff under the gun. By removing you, Wally Rippel, Judy Estrin..they could have easily alienated Caltech & UIUC engineering alumni. It's a well known fact:

"It's all about PEOPLE"
-- DoD/Dept of Defense analyst, why wars/battles are won/lost

The key to TM success (or failure), is the ability to hire good people. From management to engineering. Some character out there made a serious blunder, & severely jeopardized the engineering "people" component. TM's fate could be set-in-stone, it's just a matter of time before..

chimpanzee

I agree with the concept of Negative Reinforcement

[ a tried/true method of fixing issues. There was an Psychology episode with the title Negative Reinforcement. The US Military is a big believer in it. That's why US military forces are amongst the best trained in the World. Sergeant "Jack Hammer" & his colleagues, go around berating/yelling at the young recruits off the street ("totally undisciplined"). At the end of boot-camp, they are totally prepared to take on any battle assignment 'round the world. ]

However, given the Power infrastructure at TM, how much would your negative reinforcement (words) really accomplish? "It starts from the Top", & we all know what the problem at TM is. Wally Rippel, yourself, Judy Estrin were all part of that stealth bloodbath. Something akin to the purges by Stalin. "I'm locally pessimistic, globally optimistic" (quote from Dr. Jordan Pollack, another UIUC/Coordinated Science Laboratory/AARG alumni from Martin's day), means that TM is in some big trouble down the line. No global optimism, global pessimism.

Here's a more effective solution, which I already alluded to. Use the "Market Place of Ideas" approach.

Come up with a competing product (3rd party maintenance for $500 at your new company "Roadster by Eberhard", which does TWICE what TM offers for $1K). You'll be laughing all the way to the bank, plus TM may quit their practice altogether.

Of course, you want me involved with my Interdisciplinary R&D think-tank for Alternative Energy companies. Because, I will have a Tesla Roadster division specifically pro-actively addressing engineering problems for the Roadster. Undoubtedly, it will spinoff Roadster 3rd party products, which your company will license to manufacture/sell. I already have a line on an Xtrac 2-speed, their Offroad Racing program made a breakthrough (after 1 year of breakage, they delivered a working tranny to their their client XXX: got 1st place, followed by 3rd place). You could be doing 2-speed tranny swaps for Roadster owners. Haha, you could have the last laugh. You were incorrectly blamed for "choosing the wrong vendor twice". When I heard that, I just totally LAUGHED. This S**T takes TIME, in auto racing circles they refer to it as "developing a car". Xtrac was working tirelessly in Offroad Racing community (very positive feedback from my sources), & sure enough time was all they needed. I'm good friends with XXX, & they are listed as a R&D client on an imminent proposal.

Drivetrain 1.5 is supposed to go thru reliability testing this month in Death Valley. A 1-speed revving high, generating heat, in high heat environments..makes me really nervous. I've been around CART/Champcar races, & ignition box failure is pretty common. Heat is the enemy/cause. I've personally smelled burned electronics on the pit. I really wonder about Drivetrain 1.5, in a high heat environment. I goto Death Valley a lot, when I was there in July 2005 it was 125 deg!!

chimpanzee

There was a recent article on the Roadster, & Lamborghini came up for discussion. They are feeling the heat about high gas prices. How about electrifying some of the "standard model" high-performance sports cars, like Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, BMW, Audi, etc? I know JD Straubel/TM electrified a Porsche (personal project). Being a techie, that would be my approach to "getting my feet wet" in EV.

I have friends in Auto Racing (top race car builders, they go from $450K & up), & they build fancy street-legal desert pre-runners for high-end clients. They buy a ladder frame (which makes the car street-legal), & build a chromoly chassis/cage around it. They goto their junkyard friends, & get a nice body (off a recent wreck). Whoala, instant bad-ass street car at a "budget price" (by building it themselves). Here's one of my favorites:

Vildosola Racing "Lobo"
BITD Las Vegas 300



Full suspension travel like in their all out race truck, but with creature comforts (A/C, satellite GPS, car stereo). The builders are good friends of mine, & they use Xtrac in their CORR Pro 2 truck. Here is what their race-truck looks like (same race, Las Vegas 300):

Vildosola Racing: Vildosola TT #4, start [ BITD '06 Las Vegas 300 ]
Vildosola Racing: Vildosola TT #4, MM1 lap 2 [ BITD '06 Las Vegas 300 ]

[ they own a house in Pebble Beach, they're wealthy millionaires in the Transportation Industry. I guess they are candidates for a TM Roadster. I'm really good friends with them, they are my #1 supporter of my Jumplive.com project ]

BTW, they won the race!! Guess what, they have had problems (what many offroad racing teams) with transmissions durability/reliability. Sound familiar? The shock loads in Offroad Racing, are NOT unlike what the Tesla Roadster experiences. I just read somewhere on an offroad racing website "there is no transaxle out there which is bigger/strong enough to take the shock loads". This is why Offroad Racing is a really interesting cross-over domain, that TM could benefit from. I'm writing a Cross Disciplinary Collaborative/Cooperative R&D proposal for Alternative Energy companies (e.g., Tesla Roadster), that will address these challenging engineering issues. Yesterday, I spoke with a couple of leading Offroad Racing engineers (1 is an offroad racer, other is a really famous chassis-designer with Formula 1/CanAm/LeMans background), one of them who knows Wally Rippel & himself dabbled in CVT/Continuously Variable Transmission (for a street EV) back in '93/'94. He ran into what A. Cocconi ran into: political oppression (the CA mandate was repealed, due to pressure by oil/car companies) Gave up on his effort, since there was no money behind it. Today, it's different climate..politically it's receptive, it's now an exercise in Business & Engineering (what Martin & company went through). The failure to setup an R&D program hurt them, & based on the Needs/Solutions model, it is obvious what needs to be done.

I got a ride in 1 of these $300K desert pre-runners, they ride like Cadillacs..the shock absorber technology is so good, the massive bumps get absorbed like a "sponge".

Corona Racing: pre-run w/S. Sourapas [ '05 Laughlin ]

[ the owner/driver is a USC grad, millionaire who dabbles in racing. He would certainly qualify to be a Tesla Roadster client ]

vfx

Then you should sell him one!

In my life I meet a lot of people who have 10. 100 or 1000 times my income. I make it a high priority to let them know about the car. If I get a nibble then I go into full-on sales mode.

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The world loves to be deceived.