My Town Hall Notes - Page 4

TEG · 12-13-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGR

TEG what do you mean by temporarily crippled?

Just what has been discussed. Locked in a single gear and/or "detuned" so that it doesn't perform to published specs, until a later date when it is retrofitted to get back to published specs. I assume that the spec we are really talking about here is the 0-60 < 4. I don't know if these proposed changes would affect range (which is perhaps a bit squishy anyways bouncing around between 200 and 250)

On the positive side of things, the Roadster is still a gorgeous machine. When I saw the concept first introduced, I did expect it would gain some weight and would have a little bit of "spec rot" because that nearly always seems to be the case having watched other cars go from concept->prototype->production.
There are also usually changes to the appearance. So far the changes to the Roadster body are very minor... Like different appearance of the LED taillights that don't seem to detract from the overall design.

Also, on the positive side, I really think Elon would be very dissatisfied with not eventually getting that promised 0-60 time, so I have confidence that they will stay at it until the transmission issue is finally resolved.

I would also guess that there is a small minority of Roadster customers who would actually be OK with it being detuned. Some customers may have come only for the appearance and/or green factor, and may not have any "lead foot" inclinations.

malcolm · 12-13-2007, 06:20 AM

It's not a great pathway, but it is a workable - if unconventional one. Tesla is in the unenviable position of uncovering yet more significant differences between the ICE and the EV at a rather critical point in the development of its first commercial product.

Shit happens.

On the positive side, although they missed predicting this, they have the engineering skills available to define and solve the problem and the financial backing to get it done.

It's still a little company attempting to do the impossible. In this respect nothing has changed.

Kardax · 12-13-2007, 07:23 AM

I'm happy to see that the transmission will "probably" be used in WhiteStar. It makes little sense to go through all this money and pain and not carry the fruits of the labor across the whole product line. A result will be that anyone attempting to compete with WhiteStar and other Tesla models will need a transmission to keep up in performance.

I'm also happy to see Elon commiting himself to solving this issue, even if he has do pour more money into Tesla. With both his other companies (Solar City and SpaceX) profitable (and SpaceX not even having a successful launch yet!), he probably has the money to spare...

-Ryan

DDB · 12-13-2007, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybelding

The way I see it, it's the guys at the front of the line who have the most to worry about. Here I am as number 315, so the problems should be sorted out long before they get to me. The only concern for someone placing a new reservation today would be when they'll get a car, not whether the car will be good. And nobody else is shipping a production EV yet either, so where else are you going to go?

The other impression I got from the meeting is that they are putting intensive resources into the transmission problem. They have major transmission design companies working on it. I haves no doubt whatsoever that they're going to come up with an excellent, reliable transmission. The only enemy is time, because they need it yesterday. Or last year, really.

I don't see it.

The Volt is much further from reality than the Roadster, there isn't even a running Volt prototype yet. But more importantly, they're completely different kinds of cars. The Volt isn't a sports car. I'm getting a Roadster as a replacement for my Esprit, not my Bonneville.

I view it a little differently as my motivations are to break our addiction to oil. So, I need a viable EV that looks good. We could argue all day about whether the Roadster is practical, but for my purposes, let's stick with commuter car. I think Tesla would be crazy to place vehicles on the road it knew would have transmission issues several thousand miles later--those could be very costly mistakes as well as PR nightmares that they may never recover from.

I also believe there are other options out there. Supposedly right now you can order a car from hybrid technologies, if you really want to gamble. By the time your number rolls around, I'd bet you lunch GM has a production Volt ready to roll as does Phoenix, miles, and God willing--ZAP. My point is that 2 years is a long way off and in this business, batteries change daily (see Toshibia's press release yesterday and Enerdel's last week). But for Tesla to put rubber on the road knowing it's product isn't complete, is a lawsuit and mistake waiting to happen.

AGR · 12-13-2007, 08:26 AM

The majority of the roadster "drives" have been done in high gear. The car has a 2 speed transmission on the spec sheet, and a single speed transmission when "the rubber meets the road".

Is it possible that these 2 additional transmission companies will come out and say "you need a clutch" lets go back to the drawing board?

tonybelding · 12-13-2007, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGR

The majority of the roadster "drives" have been done in high gear. The car has a 2 speed transmission on the spec sheet, and a single speed transmission when "the rubber meets the road".

Is it possible that these 2 additional transmission companies will come out and say "you need a clutch" lets go back to the drawing board?

No. We were told they are taking the existing transmission design and correcting the problems with it. These are things like the types of bearings used, the flow of lubricant to the various bearings, mounting flanges that crack from metal fatigue, etc. They aren't changing the fundamental design of the transmission.

Remember they already have a transmission that works as intended for a few thousand miles. They just need to make it robust.

Tesla2Go · 12-14-2007, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEG

I hope they can pull it all together and make it work.

The early optimism and conviction was intoxicating. It is rough to watch reality set in harshly like this.

It seems the general public is a lot harsher, you get the feeling there's an army of people just dying to say "I told you so" and speculating every little issue to death. Here is a new company trying to build an entirely new high performance vehicle, that has already stirred the big automakers into speeding up their plans for electric vehicles and is slowly but surely changing peoples perceptions about what an electric car can deliver. If it weren't for Tesla all we would hear about would still be ethanol and hydrogen. Teslas contribution is a LOT more than just a product. So is there really a reason to go from ecstasy to doom and gloom so quickly? Tesla is not building a "toy" for rich people. If this is all some people understand then no wonder we haven't seen vehicles like the Roadster until now. If anybody should be frustrated it should be Tesla Motors for trying to deal with the extremely fickle general public while having to deal with hundreds of issues on a daily basis, which frankly we don't know sh*t about. All we have are our precious opinions which in the end amount to nothing, and change nothing. So all my respect to the people who are actually trying.

DDB · 12-14-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tesla2Go

It seems the general public is a lot harsher, you get the feeling there's an army of people just dying to say "I told you so" and speculating every little issue to death. Here is a new company trying to build an entirely new high performance vehicle, that has already stirred the big automakers into speeding up their plans for electric vehicles and is slowly but surely changing peoples perceptions about what an electric car can deliver. If it weren't for Tesla all we would hear about would still be ethanol and hydrogen. Teslas contribution is a LOT more than just a product. So is there really a reason to go from ecstasy to doom and gloom so quickly? Tesla is not building a "toy" for rich people. If this is all some people understand then no wonder we haven't seen vehicles like the Roadster until now. If anybody should be frustrated it should be Tesla Motors for trying to deal with the extremely fickle general public while having to deal with hundreds of issues on a daily basis, which frankly we don't know sh*t about. All we have are our precious opinions which in the end amount to nothing, and change nothing. So all my respect to the people who are actually trying.

I don't disagree that the public is harsh, but that's the free market and the masses will determine the success or failure of Tesla. Opinion does matter. Good point about Tesla igniting a fire that has incited all manufacturers to take notice...GM, Toyota, etc. But opinions DO matter because I spend my money based on my opinion. If a product is promised of a certain quality available at a certain time, then I expect to get it at face value. Moreover, this cuts across some serious social issues for a lot of us even more so than just banter about a performance car (like Tony's interest--which is fine by the way). So, I hope the powers that be are listening out there, as a potential customer who can afford it. I'm weighing my options and expressing concerns I have.

Tesla2Go · 12-14-2007, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDB

I don't disagree that the public is harsh, but that's the free market and the masses will determine the success or failure of Tesla.

I hope that's not entirely true, because that would be the main reason to be depressed, looking at some of the truly retarded comments posted on various blogs where Tesla is mentioned...

Seeing how much trouble the use of oil to fuel your car brings, besides polluting the areas where concentrations of people live, we have wars, political blackmail, oil tankers destroying some unique wildlife habitat a few times a year....I would gladly accept a less than perfect first product that brings about a new era. But I'm not that naive to think the general public would ease up on their severity for any pioneer, it just strikes me as extremely hypocritical of a person to complain that a company isn't being run according to their high moral and ethical standards regarding openness and sincerity, when that persons free market decisions on buying something seems to be based purely on short sighted, personal gain disregarding the big picture.

tonybelding · 12-14-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tesla2Go

I hope that's not entirely true, because that would be the main reason to be depressed, looking at some of the truly retarded comments posted on various blogs where Tesla is mentioned...

It's striking how uninformed the comments become as soon as you move away from the "green" blog sites. Like for example, the comments on AutoBlog as compared with the ones on AutoBlogGreen.

Everyone has an opinion and is willing to share it. It reminds me of what somebody once said about Texas: Anyone you ask will happily tell you how to get to any place in the state, even if they don't know where it is.

Obviously there is a lot of education to be done.

However, this might be a good moment to remind everyone that the general public doesn't have a clue about Tesla's difficulties. Despite all the publicity, most people still don't know about Tesla. Among those who know the Roadster exists, most of them have no idea about the delays and problems. Those of us who are closely following Tesla's every move need to take a deep breath, step back, and remind ourselves that most of the world isn't closely following Tesla's every move. Not yet, anyhow. In a few months after some celebs begin getting their cars and the glowing reports start appearing in magazines, things will look different.