Project Better Place - Page 4

graham · 08-28-2008, 03:30 PM

Last Winter when Tesla was still testing out the idea of the WhiteStar having a range extender, they also made some comment about it possibly having swappable batteries. I took this to mean they were considering partnering with Project Better Place. Has anyone heard anything new now that the WhiteStar is the Model S? PBP doesn't make sense for the Roadster, but it might make sense for the Model S.

TEG · 08-28-2008, 05:54 PM

After reading the Wired article, I had some more thoughts about Better Place.

Better Place has an entirely different business model from Tesla. Better Place wants to make money selling the power you use to recharge the EVs. They want someone else to make the EVs, and they want to sell them at a subsidized discount and then make money in the long run as they maintain and refill your battery pack. Better Place seems to be "inventing" a smart charging infrastructure that will direct you to the appropriate charger at the appropriate times. In some cases this will take into account grid capacity and request that you charge when there is extra power available. I bet they get into V2G someday too asking to attach your car to take power back when the grid needs some extra juice at that time.

If Better Place subsidizes the cars and the battery pack, then they need to charge above market rates for power. Would Tesla owners (who paid full price for their cars) want to pay inflated rates for power at Better Place power stations? I doubt it. Also, better place chargers will probably have proprietary protocols and perhaps even "security features" to make them only work with Better Place cars. To me, a risk item for Better Place would be if someone found a way to recharge their Better Place car using a non-better place charger. You could defeat their business model if you used power that doesn't include their needed mark-up. I bet they will engineer in all sorts of safety mechanisms to prevent this, but we know how resourceful some people can be at bypassing even well engineered systems.

I don't see Better Place cars using Tesla chargers, or Tesla cars using Better Place chargers. Perhaps the only possibility would be if Tesla made a special "Model S Better Place edition" that included the Better Place charging components. Then it would only charge at Better Place chargers and nowhere else.

...Just some thoughts...

SByer · 08-28-2008, 11:06 PM

Marginalize your complement? You have to stumble into having a complement in the first place. It's never the things you avoid when getting things going. If you're too obvious a complement to a first mover, I don't think you ever get traction.

Cobos · 08-28-2008, 11:34 PM

TEG: I beleive PBP will sell you a number of miles on your EV. That means you pay a subscription fee for your car essentially. If they tie that to the battery or power or whatever isn't really relevant. The idea is they've got an extensive recharge structure which you get access to by paying them a fee. Remember they are launching in countries like Denmark where there is a significant fee on gas-powered cars, and not on EVs. This will at first make up much of the price difference between an EV and a gas-fueled counterpart. If they get a good engineered version from Renault-Nissan they will start with a battery-less EV that is cheaper than the gas counterpart. Add inn the battery and the gasoline fees and the EV is more expensive. PBP then takes f. inst. a 3 year deal with you and you get a big rebate on the car from them dropping the EV to a cheaper price than the gasoline car. For PBP if they can sell a power access only membership to Tesla owners that will pay off as well. They get more value out of all the recharge stations everywhere and the Tesla owner pays a bit for the power and a bit for the convenience of charging "everywhere". Think of the car and battery as a cellphone. You can now buy cellphones for free with an expensive plan or you can pay the whole phone up front and get a better monthly plan. A regular PBP customer will be the former and a Tesla customer will be the latter.

Cobos

doug · 08-28-2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graham

Last Winter when Tesla was still testing out the idea of the WhiteStar having a range extender, they also made some comment about it possibly having swappable batteries. I took this to mean they were considering partnering with Project Better Place. Has anyone heard anything new now that the WhiteStar is the Model S? PBP doesn't make sense for the Roadster, but it might make sense for the Model S.

The first and only time I heard Tesla mention a swappable battery pack was Elon's interview with Fareed Zakaria.

Fareed Zakaria interviews Elon

Zakaria: Goodbye Gas Pump? A Solar-Powered Auto | Newsweek Future Of Energy | Newsweek.com

Quote:

[Fareed:] Most people travel less than 50 miles a day.
[Elon:] And 99 percent of travel is under 200 miles [a day]. There is the occasional road trip, but that's actually pretty rare, and for some people it's never. Our second model will address that rare case in two ways. One is to allow people to switch out the battery pack, so you can go to a battery-change station just like you'd go to a gas station. The second path is to have a high-speed charge. If you have a high-powered onboard charger, you can get an 80 percent charge in 45 minutes. If you're going from L.A. to San Francisco, which is about a 400-mile trip, you can drive 200 miles, stop for lunch, charge your car in the restaurant parking lot, finish lunch and continue the remaining 200 miles to San Francisco.

TEG · 08-28-2008, 11:58 PM

Well, it will be interesting to see if Tesla and Better-Place ultimately compete, join forces or just coexist.

Kevin Harney · 09-02-2008, 12:19 PM

An 80% charge in 45 minutes translates to what size outlet ? (in amps)

WarpedOne · 09-02-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

An 80% charge in 45 minutes translates to what size outlet ? (in amps)

If we assume it's ESS will store the same 53kWh as in Roadster than we have:

- 53kWh * 80% = 42kWh
- 42kWh in 1 hour => 42kW charger
- 42kWh in 45 min => 56kW charger
- add 20% for inefficiencies => 67kW charger
- 67kW at 240V will suck 280 ampers
- 67kW at 110V will suck 610 ampers
- 67kW at 380V will suck 180 ampers
- 67kW at 1000V will stil suck 67 amperes

Wanna bet we ain't gonna see that in practice?

Kevin Harney · 09-03-2008, 06:42 AM

Well, I am not too familiar with what that math means here in the US. Aren't MOST outlets 110 V and 15A ? And isn't a large outlet 240V and 70A ? So does that mean that a two phase outlet would need to be 280A which is the equivalent of 4 outlets that are of rather large size ? Doesn't that exceed the available capacity of most of the electric panels in the US ?

WarpedOne · 09-03-2008, 07:54 AM

>> Doesn't that exceed the available capacity of most of the electric panels in the US ?

Yes.
This is exactly why all this talk about quick charging is only mumbo jumbo.