Martin Eberhard sues Elon Musk and Tesla Motors - Page 20

AnOutsider · 06-25-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRP3

The comments about ACP are interesting. As anyone who's tried to purchase something from them will probably understand, I've rarely seen a company less willing to sell their product. Tesla has already improved upon the original and I expect other offerings to show up as competition as well. They may be left behind in the revolution they helped start.

Yeah, I was a little put off by how he kept saying AC were the real founders... in reality, I think both Elon and Martin had the idea for a while, but AC was the first one they came across that actually had one made... AC's lack of business drive seems to be the reason EM and ME met in the first place.

AC shouldn't be considered a founder at all. They contributed nothing much more than a proof of concept that really got EM and ME itching to get this thing started.

vfx · 06-25-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnOutsider

AC shouldn't be considered a founder at all. They contributed nothing much more than a proof of concept that really got EM and ME itching to get this thing started.

AC Built the TZero, But that's not Tesla. Tesla is a car company with a goal of being a major player. That's the company the "Founder" argument is over.

Tom and Alan are no more founders of Tesla the car company than Elon or Martin are founders of AC Propulsion.

Arnold Panz · 06-25-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vfx

AC Built the TZero, But that's not Tesla. Tesla is a car company with a goal of being a major player. That's the company the "Founder" argument is over.

Tom and Alan are no more founders of Tesla the car company than Elon or Martin are founders of AC Propulsion.

As is so often the case in situations like this, it's very Rashomon-like. Everyone could probably take a lie detector test of their version of events and pass with flying colors. It all depends upon your point of view when viewing events of this type.

AnOutsider · 06-25-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vfx

AC Built the TZero, But that's not Tesla. Tesla is a car company with a goal of being a major player. That's the company the "Founder" argument is over.

Tom and Alan are no more founders of Tesla the car company than Elon or Martin are founders of AC Propulsion.

heh, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or debating me.

WarpedOne · 06-26-2009, 02:16 AM

In 2007 Musk said:

Quote:

One fierce debate was whether the Roadster should have headlight covers or not. "My opinion," says Musk, "was that if we had uncovered headlights it would look like a kit car—a little cheesy." Eberhard pointed out that the change would cost half a million dollars. Musk said he'd pay.

Eberhard had no problems with the doorsill, but Musk did. It was difficult to step up into the car, so high and thick was the sill. At Musk's insistence, the engineers redesigned it, narrowing it and lowering it by two inches. It was Musk, too, who refused to use those hard-shell Elise seats. A carbon-fiber body replaced the fiberglass one. "On some of these changes I had to be quite forceful," Musk admits, "because Martin [Eberhard] didn't want to spend the money."

And today:

Quote:

There were several smaller items I suggested, such as the touchpad door latch that Eberhard tries to use as an excuse for why it cost over $140M to bring the Roadster to market instead of the $25M that he estimated in the 2004 business plan. That would have to be one hell of door latch!

A rat stays a rat.

AnOutsider · 06-26-2009, 07:57 AM

I don't get your post... what do the the bolded part of the first quote have to do with the second quote? He said he had to be forceful with some of his changes in the first, in the second he says that the items he requested aren't the reason the car went from 25M to 140M....

siry · 06-26-2009, 08:19 AM

Guys, I think your missing my point and taking the headline too literally. In the second paragraph I set up the premise that I don't think the important thing being fought over is who technically founded the company (obviously that is Martin and Marc), but rather the role people will play in the history of the resurgence of the electric vehicle.

I also don't equate the t-zero with the Tesla, but rather point out that the original idea of a commodity lithium ion cell electric roadster with amazing acceleration came from two other guys who are rarely talked about in the media and should figure more prominently in the story of the resurgence of the EV (I don't think they should be considered founders of Tesla)

But they didn't see just how important the idea was, which Elon and Martin both did see.

vfx · 06-26-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siry

I also don't equate the t-zero with the Tesla, but rather point out that the original idea of a commodity lithium ion cell electric roadster with amazing acceleration came from two other guys who are rarely talked about in the media and should figure more prominently in the story of the resurgence of the EV (I don't think they should be considered founders of Tesla)

I get it. The Wired article (to me) seems worded to blur the line between "idea" and "founder" when founder is what is being argued. Thanks for clarifying your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by siry

I don't think the important thing being fought over is who technically founded the company (obviously that is Martin and Marc), but rather the role people will play in the history of the resurgence of the electric vehicle.

Curious. Important to that point is we know Martin paid his own money to have AC build the TZero with lithium cells and drove the car for months to prove the concept, but was it his idea or Alan and Tom's idea to use commodity lithium cells? I know that was long before you came on the scene but it might have come up. Others might be able to dig up old interviews with details.

Daryl, another way to look at your "big picture" view is to delineate the difference is, who had "concept" and who had "vision".

bobw · 06-26-2009, 09:25 AM

I think Alan Cocconi is a brilliant engineer who deserves all possible credit for designing the modern AC motor and power electronics for cars.

I looked at AC Propulsion from time to time over the years. They never seemed interested in manufacturing. They seemed more interested in supplying designs and prototype parts for other companies.

It's not clear to me where the idea to use the commodity lithium ion batteries in the Tesla Roadster came from. It's clear from the timeline on the AC Propulsion website that they used commodity NiMH cells to power the White Lightning in 1999. It's not clear that they were using lithium ion batteries in packs before 2005.

In any case, Martin Eberhard and Elon Musk aren't fighting over Karl Benz' place in history, they're fighting over Henry Ford's. Perhaps they'll end up with something more like R. E. Olds' place, instead.

bobw · 06-26-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Daryl, another way to look at your "big picture" view is to delineate the difference is, who had "concept" and who had "vision".

Please... no visions. I hate it when the executive suite starts doing peyote.