Seems Martins car is finished now - Page 5

Martin · 05-08-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent

Usually when someone wants to change the terms of the contract, s/he is willing to give something up in exchange for the new terms. In the way you describe this contract, you would be the one giving up a few rights in exchange for nothing new. Can that be right? Did the contract give you any incentives to sign?

No. They said that all the other Founders Series customers signed that agreement. I frankly don't believe them for one minute. Plus, the company is not likely to sue Elon or the other Founders Series customers, since all of them or investors and many are Elon's friends...

deenko · 05-08-2008, 07:56 PM

I like to believe that the reason that the car is delayed, is that there are still people that want to make sure that Martin gets the best car, not just #2. I think that the delay has at least allowed the body panels to get better. You know, let them tweak production and deliver the first unblemished car to Martin.

Also, the more cars before #2 produced means that the less likely #2 will end up a customer/showroom car.

Maybe the delay might also be long enought to allow the new drivetrain to be installed.

I just might also be a wishfull thinker.

vfx · 05-08-2008, 08:16 PM

I think the basic concern re Matin's car (or lack of same) is that there are still 598 VIN numbers to go. If a Founder series owner is getting the runaround then what do regular old buyers have to look forward to?

By the way, there are many forums for many of the world's Production cars from the many manafacturers out there.

They have Posts about where to get a car's accessories and how to hack and troubleshooting problems, dealer issues and Company compliments and complaints.

These pages may well end up being where Tesla Owners come to share and vent about getting and owning and tricking out their Tesla without fear of company censorship.

I suggest a new Sub-Forum under The Tesla Roadster. Something like:

Roadster Owner

or:
Roadster owning
Roadster Owner Comments
Roadster Owner Share
Roadster Owner Stories

Martin · 05-08-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deenko

I like to believe that the reason that the car is delayed, is that there are still people that want to make sure that Martin gets the best car, not just #2. I think that the delay has at least allowed the body panels to get better. You know, let them tweak production and deliver the first unblemished car to Martin.

That is generous of you, but nobody at Tesla asked me if I would rather have a later car so that the body panels would fit better.

There is relevant history about this issue:

When the company was founded, there was no question at all that car number one would be mine. (Some joked that this was why I started the company.) Some time after Elon came on board, he declared that he wanted number one. He and I argued about it for a while. His basic argument was "I invested X million dollars - it is not too much to ask for the first car." My response was "True, you invested a lot of money (for which I am truly grateful), but I have put 4 years of my life into this company." After a few rounds of this argument, Elon reluctantly agreed to let me have car number one. Recognizing how much this meant to Elon, I relented, and said that he could have the first one; I would be satisfied with the second car. And so it was.

Elon thanked me for my graciousness, and promised that under any circumstances, the second car was mine.

During the entire time I was at Tesla, staff discussions about the early production cars rarely referred to the first two cars as "P1" and "P2." They were simply called "Elon's car" and "Martin's car." Everyone at Tesla knew this, and everyone knew how important these cars and their production sequence meant to both of us.

Early cars of every significant new model of car - especially the first one and to a lesser degree the second one - are far more interesting (and collectible) than any subsequent car. Elon knows this; Tesla's board of directors knows this; anyone who follows collectible cars knows this. By building P3 (and possibly other cars) before mine, The decision makers at Tesla have deliberately chosen to devalue my car and to take something away from me that they knew mattered to me very much. They have also violated the written terms of their agreement with me. And Elon broke his promise to me.

Though I admire your generous interpretation, I cannot imagine any motivation for their action other than meanness and malice.

WarpedOne · 05-09-2008, 12:32 AM

I took the liberty to quote Martin's last post at Tesla's blog and ask them to comment on it. I did that amost immediately after Martin posted it and so far it hasn't yet showed up. I am certain it will show up eventualy... or will it?

malcolm · 05-09-2008, 07:13 AM

Looking at this from a business perspective, at some stage there was bound to be a negative customer experience. And it is in the nature of things that bad news forces out good. Goes with the territory.

I can't believe that Tesla have sleep-walked into letting this happen this early in the schedule with car 2/3 when there are so few other customer experiences out there to provide balance.

I'm sure if George Clooney was "not happy" with his treatment, Tesla would pull out all the stops to prevent the matter reaching the media or the blog-sphere.

In the relative silence all we can hear is Tesla kicking Martin.

There are two choices - treat Martin like the other Signature 100 customers or give us the ol' razzle dazzle with news of whitestar etc and hope it drowns out the mistreatment.

Personally, i hope for the former.

doug · 05-09-2008, 11:48 AM

Well with only 5 posts (at the time), Chris H. has certainly managed to have a large impact on this forum. Here's the response Siry posted to the TM blog. I copy it here for archival purposes:
Tesla Motors - feel

Quote:

Chris - you are a piece of work! Yes, I have been cringing in the dark dungeons of Tesla Motors fearing for my job as I am forced to be dishonest to the teeming hordes demanding the truth be told about the sinister plots we have been hatching.
Just kidding of course - I am not at all afraid for my job - I just typically don’t feel like I should be at the beck and call of people demanding information from me and accusing me of deception. If I want that I’ll just go to “the truth about cars”. I was the one who called Martin personally months ago and told him that VINF003 had already been started when we put VINF002 on the line. I don’t see how I could have been any more forthcoming since I volunteered the information without his asking. I also don’t think it is inconsistent with what I have said before and what is written in the sales agreement, that we reserve the right to produce cars in whatever order we deem necessary. There will be other circumstances where we go out of sequence, but I don’t feel the need to tell you why or under what circumstances.
Things are fine at Tesla Motors and we are making progress on a lot of fronts. We had a great company meeting today celebrating a lot of positive things such as our store opening, European launch, new battery manufacturing facility, and future plans. We are in a great position for the future and people here are intensely focused on the job at hand and not on rehashing past drama ad nauseum. I’m sure I’ve given you plenty of good material here for the next cycle of sinister plots and personal attacks, but you will have to have that discussion elsewhere because I’m not going to clutter this blog with such nonsense.
Darryl

Like others, I find it disappointing that Darryl chose to leave the forum. I certainly appreciated his input here, even if it was infrequent and at times vague. Since none of us have Roadsters yet, most of what we can do here is speculate about what's going on with the car and the company. It was useful to have the occasional comment from someone still inside. (Of course as a scientist and engineer, I'd prefer to hear from engineers rather than sales/marketing, but that's neither here not there.) At any rate, his contributions had value and will be missed.

I have to say, though, his dramatic exit and his handling of this P3/P2 issue is a real PR blunder. What value does the VIN# have if it's not an accurate way for collectors to determine production order? Martin has a legitimate point, and as the head of service, Siry should be seeing to Martin's satisfaction as a customer.

doug · 05-09-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vfx

By the way, there are many forums for many of the world's Production cars from the many manafacturers out there.

They have Posts about where to get a car's accessories and how to hack and troubleshooting problems, dealer issues and Company compliments and complaints.

These pages may well end up being where Tesla Owners come to share and vent about getting and owning and tricking out their Tesla without fear of company censorship.

I suggest a new Sub-Forum under The Tesla Roadster....

Vfx, I'm pretty sure that way the original intent of this forum. It's just that people don't have any cars yet. You may recall that this site had a major reorganization a while back. There used to be tons of specific sub forums on everything you'd expect from a car forum with almost no posts. Also the general EV forum (Electric Performance) was it's own separate web site. With overlapping topics, it was unclear where one should post and the whole thing was a bit of a mess. The current setup is much better. As people get their own cars and there's enough content in a specific category, sub forums will likely be created. (Where's dsacks6 these days?)

Also, I've never seen it, but I heard that the TM site has an owners only forum. It's likely to also serve that purpose once people get cars.

Chris H. · 05-09-2008, 12:15 PM

I would like to say to everyone that I am sorry that the effect of my questions and commentary was to prompt Darryl to abandon this blog. That was not my intent. My hope was that I could encourage Darryl to be more forthright and honest with all of us, and to drop the sales-speak facade. I know that he was the last "insider" who was still proffering information to us from that perspective. I do question the value of some of that information, as I discover more lapses in his stories, but still, I do recognize the value of even corrupted information.

Please accept my apologies regarding this matter, and rest assured that I have no intention of alienating any other members of this blog.

All the best,

Chris H.

doug · 05-09-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

Early cars of every significant new model of car - especially the first one and to a lesser degree the second one - are far more interesting (and collectible) than any subsequent car. Elon knows this; Tesla's board of directors knows this; anyone who follows collectible cars knows this. By building P3 (and possibly other cars) before mine, The decision makers at Tesla have deliberately chosen to devalue my car and to take something away from me that they knew mattered to me very much. They have also violated the written terms of their agreement with me. And Elon broke his promise to me.

Martin, I try my best to give the benefit of the doubt, but you really have a point here. This compounded with Dogtown's observation that they were deliberately calling VIN3 as "Production model #2," really means that Tesla knew what they were doing.

If it's any consolation, your car (assuming you ever get it) should still have a large collectors value. Because of it's easily recognizable and distinctive paint job, it's history (it will have been owned by the company's original founder*), and even this controversy (collectors like an item to have an interesting story), make it likely to be more valuable than P2/VIN3. If I were a collector in the future, I'd prefer your car over even Elon's P1. Let's hope you get your car soon.

Does Tesla issue a document with each car certifying it's production number?

*Yes, I realize the phrase "original founder" is redundant.