tonybelding

You'd have to ask GM, since they invented the term. And it was later adopted by Tesla and now Chrysler, apparently.


That was Bob Lutz's description. Well, it has to have something other than batteries to be "range extended", I suppose. Unless they get some higher capacity batteries and decide that qualifies as range extended.


According to GM it would. Unless they change their mind. Because ultimately REEV means whatever type of vehicle GM's marketing department thinks will sell best if it's called a REEV.

It's all arbitrary. It's a marketing term that GM invented to make their plug-in hybrid sound like it's not a hybrid.

AGR

One question, how do you test a battery pack, on the assumption that one is buying a used Volt/Fisker/Whitestar with 40,000 miles how do you know how long the battery pack will last?

Is anyone going to log how often the battery pack cycled?

What depreciation guidelines would be applied towards the battery pack? Same as the rest of the car?

Kardax

To test it, you build a battery pack and attach it to a test machine to simulate realistic loads. The pack doesn't get moved at all, just charged and discharged to various points, maybe heated and chilled, etc.. if you track all the details, you'll end up with a nice lifecycle chart you can base your recommendations upon. You can compare the results to other cycling patterns to figure out what is healthiest for the battery.

Tesla is probably doing this already for WhiteStar, and already has done it for the Roadster battery system.

-Ryan

stopcrazypp

On a BEV Whitestar it will be straightforward: just look at the odometer. On the PHEV Whitestar/Volt/Fisker I would imagine the car will do the pack cycle log for you automatically. Since they will most likely have an information display like most hybrids, you should even be able to see it on screen. Even if that is not the case I would imagine you can get the data from the diagnostic port avaliable in pretty much any new car today. I would hope they won't leave the consumer to do the logging.

You make a good point as the battery pack life should play a big role on the value on a used PHEV or hybrid.

Hmm, I wonder if any hybrids today have battery cycle logs already, any hybrid owners out there care to comment?

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TEG

When I was shopping for a used BEV they advertised various cars with different "max freeway range". Basically they fully charged it and then drove it until the charge ran out. Not exactly friendly to the pack, but it is one way to test the health.

With a used Fisker or Volt you could fully charge it then drive a consistent speed on the freeway until the ICE turned on. That would give you some idea of pack health.

(Other factors such as ambient temperature could skew the results a bit, but someone could try to factor that in as well).

Another thing they can do is measure full pack voltage when fully charged. A tired pack tends not to hold the same voltage as a brand new one.

Yet another test is to measure differences in cell (or slice) voltage when you run down the pack. A tired pack may have some cells (or slices) that discharge more quickly than others.

A new industry will probably crop up to do this sort of work once there are enough PHEVs and BEVs on the road.

stopcrazypp

Those are probably more accurate ways to measure the state of the battery, but I still think having a cycle log should be a easy way to do it too, as pretty much all new cars today have the electronics on board to be able to do it.

There was already talk about the industry changing when hybrids came out, but it didn't really change. I guess it's because the market penetration is still very low so far, and hybrids didn't turn out to be that different. PHEVs and BEVs are significantly different enough that maybe this time the industry WILL see a big change (and then comes the fear that the mechanics will all be put out of work, esp as a result of the BEV).

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TEG

Cycle log wouldn't' necessarily tell you the whole story. You could have faulty cells that had some kind of imperfection from the manufacturing stage that led them to age prematurely.

I bet the Roadster ESS computers could tell you all sorts of details about pack history and health. The question is if if that info would be generally available or only for factory use.

stopcrazypp

Eh, the cycle log is kind of like the same idea as the odometer. It lets the consumer do a quick and easy reading onto the status of a car without factoring in factory defects, and it could be a number to post when you sell your PHEV/BEV (akin to posting how many miles are on your odometer). I suppose you would want to do more indepth tests when you buy a used car, similar to sending the used car first to your mechanic, which is more in line with the solutions you are proposing.

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BBHighway

Greentech media article talks a bit about Whitestar. Notable are the references to charging in under one hour, and quick change battery packs.

Greentech Media | Tesla's Second Unveiling

TEG

"The company is also developing the WhiteStar's battery pack to be switched out quickly."

Interesting. The sense I had gotten was that Tesla had already decided against doing something like this (even though the blogger hordes kept bringing up the idea).

Old Tesla stance:
* Liquid cooling is not desired for the motor
* Multi-speed transmission is needed
* 3+ hour charge is fine
* Battery pack should never be removed except for service
* BEV or bust

New Tesla stance:
* Liquid cooled motor is being planned
* One speed gearbox for both Roadster and Sedan
* ~1 hour charge (where?!)
* Swappable battery packs
* Gasoline "range extender" engine generators are planned.

Most of these changes seem appropriate to me (although I really wish they didn't have to go the way of the REEV), but it is surprising to see so many things changing. I could dig up old TM blog entries where they talked about no quick charge, no battery swap, no liquid cooling, BEV only, etc, but I don't think I need to spend the time. There were also press releases assuring everyone that Whitestar was 100% BEV... So things are really changing.

I am going to hope and assume that hub motors, and perpetual motion devices are NOT showing up on the roadmap

Other concepts that I wonder about:
* ICE/Generator being optional/removable? (For now it sounds like it will be a permanent part of REEV Whitestar)
* ICE/Generator or larger battery pack being in a trailer? (Probably still a dead idea even though ACP did it)
* Blend of regen and friction brakes when using the brake pedal? (Perhaps too many patents to license?)
* Solar panels on the car (Tesla said no, but Fisker is doing it...)