Climate facts to warm to

tonybelding · 12-14-2007, 07:03 PM

The folks at Bali are achieving their Climate Consensus the same way lefties usually do... http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22401

TEG · 12-14-2007, 07:28 PM

Hey Tony, watch where you point that finger. You are poking me in the eye!

Seriously, there are many very one sided, politically motivated sites trying to push their agenda, and "heartland institute" is one of them.

see this where they talk about all the funding that went to them from ExxonMobil.

If you don't believe that global warming is a serious problem that is your prerogative, but do keep in mind that many EV supporters do so because they are concerned about such things and think that oil burning _could_ be causing such problems. Forget about global warming for a moment... Do you think that burning oil causes smog? ( Haved you ever lived in smog prone places like Mexico City, Hong Kong, or even Los Angeles)?

Perhaps the "global warming scare" is over-hyped (and I hope it is for all our sakes), there are still plenty of other reasons (from direct air pollution, to shortages, to tanker spills, to inequity for countries without oil reserves) that I think we can still all agree that reducing oil consumption is a good thing.

I try to stay away from this sort of talk, but your blunt comment forced me on to my wobbly soapbox.

TEG · 12-14-2007, 07:38 PM

By the way, I respect your knowledge, abilities, and status as a Tesla Roadster customer.

Did you once say you are buying it with money you are getting from an oil company that is putting a well on your property? If so, that is rather ironic.

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Also when I talk of politically motivated, one sided sites, many of the ones providing EV information are obviously pushing a "lefty agenda" so I can see how you might feel the need to push another viewpoint.

tonybelding · 12-14-2007, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEG

I try to stay away from this sort of talk, but your blunt comment forced me on to my wobbly soapbox. I hope we can keep this sort of this discussion off of this web site. This site is about electric cars, not global warming (even though they ~might~ be related in some way).

This sub-forum is named "Environment". If discussion of global warming doesn't belong on this web site, then I would assume the "Environment" sub-forum would be taken out.

All I want is to see some science applied to the subject. It shouldn't be a religion with Al Gore as the prophet of the End Times. You know, Al Gore won the Nobel prize jointly along with the IPCC. If you read the IPCC reports, global warming comes across as a manageable problem. If you listen to Al Gore, it's the end of civilization -- maybe even the end of life on earth. Who should I believe? Should I believe the hundreds of scientists in the IPCC, or should I believe the one loudmouth who is not any kind of scientist but managed to get a movie made?

And it was actually a lease to drill for natural gas on our property. You know, the stuff they make hydrogen from. :)

TEG · 12-14-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybelding

And it was actually a lease to drill for natural gas on our property. You know, the stuff they make hydrogen from. :)

Yeah, well, there is some carbon in that natural gas that would likely get released if you wanted to convert it to hyrdrogen, or burned it directly.

Sorry I made a fuss about your subject matter. I agree, this part of the forum is appropriate for this type of discussion. I should have probably just stayed away!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybelding

All I want is to see some science applied to the subject.

I gather there has been loads of science applied. It seems the problem is picking which sets of results to believe. No matter what, you have to extrapolate out to something that hasn't happened yet, so of course there is room for speculation. Certainly there are all sorts of interests trying to paint the picture the way that best helps their cause.

I don't know enough about this subject to have much to say... accept I hope Al Gore's version turns out to be wrong.

vfx · 12-14-2007, 10:42 PM

If I were Tony I would do the same thing. That is, lease my property for NG pumping to get a Tesla.** At least it is a (still) needed fuel from a LOCAL source.

It would be difficult though for me to say how much carbon I would not be putting into the air by driving an EV knowing that as the car drives the pump that paid for it is ultimately offestting that segment to the car's bragging rights.

**Personally I am brainstorming on dozens of schemes to have one of these in my driveway. Some none too pretty.

TEG · 12-14-2007, 11:36 PM

I am cozy and warm in my house right now fueled by natural gas. Not giving that up easily!

TEG · 12-15-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybelding

...a lease to drill for natural gas on our property. You know, the stuff they make hydrogen from. :)

FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

W8MM · 12-17-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEG

Seriously, there are many very one sided, politically motivated sites trying to push their agenda, and "heartland institute" is one of them.

OK, how about "New Study Increases Concerns About Climate Model Reliability" from a refereed journal?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211101623.htm

TEG · 12-17-2007, 04:09 PM

That seems like more realistic news, but it only casts doubt on the accuracy of some of the data. Saying that we should ignore the whole phenomenon because we can't predict it perfectly seems to me an oversimplification.

Also, I have seen the argument that "we can't control the weather" so why bother. Perhaps we can't control the weather directly, but we can influence the weather. So again, just because it isn't perfect science doesn't mean we shouldn't consider trying to do something.

I shouldn't even being saying anything here. I really know so little of the science.

But it seems obvious that special interests are trying to steer perception.