Climate facts to warm to - Page 4

bill · 02-09-2009, 11:40 AM

Here's an interesting article on Global warming. I haven't figured out how to post a ink yet, so we will start with this.

The Amazing Story Behind the Global Warming Scam | KUSI - News, Weather and Sports - San Diego, CA | Coleman's Corner

Perhaps someone will set it up properly.

Thanks..!!

TEG · 02-09-2009, 12:25 PM

Bill, your URL linked itself. A feature of the forum.
Trying to 'debate' Tony Belding over global warming was one of the most frustrating things I ever did on this forum. I just don't try anymore.
That story you linked has been on the internet for a while now. You can see a lot more of John Coleman's writing here if you so chose:

Comments on Global Warming by John Coleman

Be aware that a lot of people disagree with him.
Another counterpoint site.

...Now I retreat back to posting stories of glaciers melting and sea levels rising... Speaking of which, I wonder how all those new man made islands in Dubai will fare in 100 years...

bobw · 02-09-2009, 03:18 PM

Try this link

On The Hijacking of the American Meteorological Society (AMS)

I am not qualified to judge the argument on techical grounds. I will say that historically the climate varied in cycles long before the industrial revolution. I see no reason for those cycles to stop just because human activity has added CO2 to the atmosphere.

I am qualified to judge the quality of the debate. Frankly, it sucks. I read proof-by-repeated-assertion. I read appeal to authority, without answering questions any educated person can raise about global climate changes in historical times. I read ad-hominem attacks on global warming (sorry, climate change) skeptics.

I can point out that the same people pushing cap-and-trade schemes on carbon emissions made a bundle on emissions trading.

"Everything is different now!" is just as foolish applied to climate as when applied to the business cycle.

I too am in favor of the electrification of the automobile. I want to make oil less important. I would like to clean up our air. I would like to build manufacturing businesses in the USA.

Cobos:

"If the truth will not serve us, what does that say about us?"

bobw · 02-09-2009, 03:32 PM

Then, there's Freeman Dyson:

Edge: HERETICAL THOUGHTS ABOUT SCIENCE AND SOCIETY By Freeman Dyson

And there's always that eminent philosopher:

George Carlin - Saving the Planet

TEG · 02-09-2009, 04:45 PM

Carlin: "trying to save endangered species is meddling with nature"
So I guess hunting them and ruining their habitat is 'natural', but trying to stop is not... Sigh...

bill · 02-09-2009, 05:37 PM

<< TEG ..Bill, your URL linked itself. A feature of the forum.>>

Thanks.. It is a lot easier than I thought.

<<TEG.. That story you linked has been on the internet for a while now. You can see a lot more of John Coleman's writing here if you so chose:>>

Thanks again for the info. You folks are way ahead of me. I don't know anything about global warming, but Some of the science I see is pretty well twisted. I call it "Scientific Marketing". Generally, it's not science but a combination of ego and money. SAD...

TEG · 02-09-2009, 06:00 PM

You won't reach consensus here. There are forces at work twisting science in all directions for various reasons. Best stick to the "national security", "peak oil" and "localized pollution" arguments for why getting away from burning petroleum products is a good idea.

You know, catalytic converters don't work well until they are hot. Many cars will fail a smog check if you test them right after starting the engine. PHEVs (and to some degree all hybrids) stop the gas engine enough to keep the catalyst from working to full effectiveness. Carbon monoxide, smog and other irritants/pollutants are still something to work to prevent. (I guess Carlin might have argued that asthma and lung cancer are natural phenomenons so we have no business trying to prevent them).

"Live like there is no tomorrow" is not a credo I go by.

Neither is "Every man for himself". We are all in this life together, and we need to work together for a healthier, safer future for us and our offspring.

TEG · 02-09-2009, 11:00 PM

bill · 02-10-2009, 07:11 AM

<<TEG You won't reach consensus here>>

I'm here to learn. Don't expect consensus and didn't join to debate. It's a Great forum. Thanks again for your help and advice.

bobw · 02-10-2009, 08:26 AM

TEG:

I think George Carlin was pointing out the hubris of claiming to understand the world and know how to fix it. It's also hubris to pretend to control the world. We don't.

We don't understand the environment. We don't understand the climate. Almost anything we do will have side effects we don't expect and don't like. Some people won't admit that.

Look, it's reasonable to want to reduce pollution. Nobody likes being down wind of a coal burning power plant. I hate the smell of car exhaust, too. At some point we're all down wind. You can see the smog clouds over China and India from orbit.

Some people know what's best and are bound and determined that we all will do things their way. Others "want to be part of something bigger than themselves." Such people foisted Prohibition on us. They've gone on (perhaps with the mob's help) to foist the drug war, and now the chiliastic environmental movement on us.

And they all want to save the world by giving the rest of us orders. There's got to be a better way.

Notice that alcohol usage has gone down since the repeal of Prohibition. Smoking rates declined before the recent wave of bans. Persuasion works, with fewer side effects.

Building a better mousetrap also works. A better solution has market value. Who knows what the resources that have gone into lobbying and marketing on environmental issues might have achieved if devoted to solid state physics? Does one endowed chair at the University of Illinois cost more than an office in Washington D.C.?