Vaclav Klaus: From Climate Alarmism to Climate Realism

WarpedOne · 03-09-2008, 03:52 AM

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Future dangers will not come from the same (communist) source. The ideology will be different. Its essence will, nevertheless, be identical – the attractive, pathetic, at first sight noble idea that transcends the individual in the name of the common good, and the enormous self-confidence on the side of its proponents about their right to sacrifice the man and his freedom in order to make this idea reality.

Vaclav Klaus - From Climate Alarmism to Climate Realism

This man should win the award, not the other one ...

JRP3 · 03-09-2008, 08:24 AM

I'd have to disagree. His idea of continuous growth is impossible without consequences.
For example:

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The freedom to have children without regulation and control is one of the undisputable human rights and we have to say very loudly that we do respect it and will do so in the future as well.

More people fighting for fewer resources will be the result of that type of thinking.
Endless procreation will eventually lead to a massive dieoff in one way or another. Voluntarily regulating growth and population now will improve living conditions for those already alive.
Limiting emissions through better technology is a worthwhile goal regardless of global warming.

TEG · 03-09-2008, 09:59 AM

Interesting discussion of "Green Capitialism":

Is Green Capitalism a contradiction in terms? [Archive] - Greenpeace Forum: Louder than words

and a related article:

Planet Ark : FEATURE - Get rich with "green" capitalism

and another:

Can Capitalism Be Green? - CommonDreams.org

WarpedOne · 03-09-2008, 10:10 AM

>> Endless procreation

Well, the reality does not agree with you. The only practial solution to human population growth is economic developement. Who will have 10 kids if he has a fullfiling job that he enjoys and is sucessful in and is married to equally succesful partner? You get 10 kids when sex is the only joy and job of your life.

Just look at the rate of population growth in countries at different levels of economic and social developement. More advanced countries have much lower growth rate or no growth at all. Here in Slovenia we had negative growth rate(falling number of population) for last 10 years straight.

Are you willing to tell people they can only have 2 kids? If she gets pregnant again - you would force abortion or raise taxes on her? Is that what you are proposing?

TEG · 03-09-2008, 10:26 AM

Ironically we are getting better and better at keeping more people alive longer. Improved health-care, reduced smoking, better control of toxic substances and reduced pollution are some of the things keep the population up as well. Quite a quandary to balance the "preserve healthy life at all costs" to the problem of overpopulation.

Elon was a producer on the film "Thank You for Smoking" (and even had his private plane featured in the movie). During the movie, the main character was asked why he would agree to be a spokesman for the cigarette industry (in an age when we know all too well of the dangers) and his whispered response "population control".

Brent · 03-09-2008, 12:33 PM

Bills & Melinda Gates' foundation supports improved health care and education for poor countries in hopes that raising these indicia will lower population growth rates. The argument seems to go against intuition, but I understand there are good studies underlying it.

While nature has a way of achieving balance, it's not clear what the next major population control mechanism will be. In centuries past it has been famine, disease, plague, war, among others. We've pretty much solved the food problem, at least in the Occident (who could imagine in the 16th century that someday the problem would be obesity?!). Disease and plague are pretty well under control, aside from AIDS in a few countries. War may be with us forever, but one might hope the days of global conflict are behind us.

The only big thing left that I can see now is climate change, which could reintroduce widespread famine. If so, the irony may be that we unwittingly cause our own population control mechanisms.

TEG · 03-09-2008, 02:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Brent

...Disease and plague are pretty well under control, aside from AIDS in a few countries. ...

That may be wishful thinking, or just luck of the past few generations.
I think the medical establishment is all too aware that a plague could arise and they would not be able to stop it from running its' course. I suspect that ongoing population increases will make the chances greater. More chances for mutation, and more vectors to spread. We don't live in isolated pockets so much anymore.

WarpedOne · 03-09-2008, 02:35 PM

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The only big thing left that I can see now is climate change, which could reintroduce widespread famine. If so, the irony may be that we unwittingly cause our own population control mechanisms.

Who caused all previous ice ages? Should we go to church and confess our sins? Or should we only tax those dirty rich bastards for having more than we do?

JRP3 · 03-10-2008, 06:26 AM

We need to wake up to the fact that a model based on endless growth is not sustainable. Population will not stop growing just because third worlders start living like Americans. 10 people in third world countries don't consume the resources of 1 American. What do you think will happen if 1 or 2 billion start consuming the way 300 million Americans do? We need to give incentives for people to have fewer children, including free birth control for all.
The planet has limited resources and the more people competing for those resources the less to go around. War will be the end result of that competition, along with starvation and disease.

WarpedOne · 03-10-2008, 11:44 AM

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We need to wake up to the fact that a model based on endless growth is not sustainable.

So we need to artificially limit the growth from the position of government power? To force people to do what WE think is good for them? Who is 'WE'? Selected few? Sorry, FASCISM is the name of the game.

If current way of growth is not sustainable, some resources will become scarce, the price will rise and other cheaper resources will be found and the "growth way" will change. When Earth will not be enough anymore, we'll go elsewhere. Don't think we know everything and life won't ever change anymore. It is impossible to say what life will look like in 100 years. What is sure it is that it will be much more different from our ways that our life is different from the life 100 years ago.
Developement is rapidly accelerating. One who tries to stop that, will only loose.

If you really are into some wild thinking go look up transhumanism and singularity. And then honestly try to find reasons why it is impossible or why it won't happen sooner or later.

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The planet has limited resources and the more people competing for those resources the less to go around. War will be the end result of that competition, along with starvation and disease.

You have starvation and disease NOW because of war for POWER. Wars for resources are long time gone. Knowledge and scientific development brought alternative sources for all resources. We need no war to get them anymore, only knowledge.

All this global warming hysteria is only a way to gain even more power over people. To raise taxes and scare them for scared do not think.