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Old 06-04-2009, 12:32 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion View Post
TEG: I assume your Ranger is the Ford produced one with an AC motor? AC has a broad torque curve and is more efficient. Daniel with his low voltage, series motor with back EMF drop off, and possibly more voltage sag than you, his torque curve isn't as fat as yours. He could make up alot of that difference with shifting, but he can't shift quickly. I have always been impressed how AC cars could post similar 1/4 times to DC cars that were lighter and running as much as twice the current and same voltage.
Yes... I bought it in part because it had an AC motor, not DC.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:00 AM   #162
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So Daniel, do you have some voltage sag numbers for us?
One of my disappointments with this car is the lack of instrumentation. I am very disappointed in Paul, that originally he was going to give me no instrumentation other than a voltmeter. But before the car was completed, Richard recommended the Xantrex e-meter (which I then had to pay Paul extra for!) and which shows me only one number at a time. I can choose to look at the voltage across 4 cells (multiply by 12 for pack voltage, or divide by 4 for cell voltage), the amperage, the amp-hours used (which runs backwards during charging so I can see how full the pack is whether discharging or charging) the percent of charge (which is wrong because Paul set it to think it's a 100-ah pack) or a time (I am not sure what it refers to). In practice I look at amperage or amp-hours used or voltage.

Under hard load I have seen 400 amps, but Tim, who rode with me once, saw 460 amps. I have seen the voltage go as low as 138 volts (pack voltage). Nominal is 144 volts. Fully charged after the surface charge is gone I think I've been seeing around maybe 157. Right now it's sitting in the garage with a full charge from yesterday afternoon, and is at 163 volts.

Daniel
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hmm
Old 06-04-2009, 08:26 AM   #163
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hmm

138 volts swing with a nominal of 144 volts does not seem that bad to be for a drop. This is when you on the peddle ya? Seems to me the cells can take the load.

Again thanks for the posts daniel, I have not converted a car yet so your "research" helps me pick what Im going to use.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:34 AM   #164
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Let's assume worst case, 163 Volts down to 138 Volts at 400 Amps. (In reality, a resting voltage is artificially high and you really should use 2 different currents and two voltages, like 200 Amps and 400 Amps). Also, going down to only 138 Volts is pretty good.

(163 Volts - 138 Volts) / (400 Amps - 0 Amps) = 0.0625 Ohms for the whole pack.

0.0625 ohm / twelve 12 Volt batteries = 5 mOhm per "12 Volt battery equivalent." This is not bad, and is likely a bit better if we had 2 current points. I'd guess it's closer to 4 mOhm, maybe even better, but running with 5 mohm / 12 Volts is conservative.

Theoretical maximum pack power:
(144 Volts / 2)^2 / 0.0625 Ohm = 83 kW
Note, the batteries might melt before you reach the max power point! The "/2" part is because max power occurs when the batteries sag to 1/2 their maximum voltage.

Currently measured power:
460 Amps * 138 Volts = 63 kW
That's pretty close to the system nominal max power of 500 Amps * 144 Volts = 72 kW, so that's pretty good.

Anyway, it appears the batteries' resistance is not the bottleneck, since he is getting near max rated Amps and voltage isn't sagging much. Basically what is needed here is more Voltage and/or more current, and enough batteries to support that.

What if we doubled current:
(144 Volts - 1000 Amp * 0.0625 Ohm) * 1000 Amp = 82 kW
That would be 30% more power. This is the most feasible mod given his current battery pack, provided the batteries and wiring and motor can handle 1000 Amps. Note this is close to the battery's theoretical max, so is the best we can do for 0.005 mohm/12 volt battery resistance.

What if we quadrupled the current with a Zilla 2k?
(144 Volts - 2000 Amp * 0.0625) * 2000 Amp = 28 kW
Yep, the power actually went down, that's not enough battery to support that much current.

What if we doubled voltage by rewiring the batteries? You have twice the voltage, but also four times the internal resistance (going from parallel to series is 4x the resistance).
(288 Volts - 500 Amp * 0.0625 * 4) * 500 Amp = 82 kW
Same power! So rearranging the pack wiring doesn't help power. In reality there would be small efficiency benefits.

What if you could cram in another 96 Volts of batteries? Then at 1000 Amps, the pack would sag to 140 Volts. So if you could cram in another 96 Volts, and have 1000 Amps (High Voltage Zilla 1k):
(144 V + 96 V - 1000 A * (0.005 Ohm * 20)) * 1000 A = 140 V * 1000 A
= 140 kW
Now you have close to double the power, and about 60% more range.

To summarize:
Easy solution: Zilla 1K for 30% more power.
Best solution: 96 Volts more batteries, plus high voltage Zilla 1k for ~100% more power and 60% more range.

Important cautions: You'd have to turn down the Zilla's output voltage, as slapping the motor with a full 240 Volts would likely ruin it. You'd also need to check the batteries and wiring and motor can handle 1000 Amps in either case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel View Post
One of my disappointments with this car is the lack of instrumentation. I am very disappointed in Paul, that originally he was going to give me no instrumentation other than a voltmeter. But before the car was completed, Richard recommended the Xantrex e-meter (which I then had to pay Paul extra for!) and which shows me only one number at a time. I can choose to look at the voltage across 4 cells (multiply by 12 for pack voltage, or divide by 4 for cell voltage), the amperage, the amp-hours used (which runs backwards during charging so I can see how full the pack is whether discharging or charging) the percent of charge (which is wrong because Paul set it to think it's a 100-ah pack) or a time (I am not sure what it refers to). In practice I look at amperage or amp-hours used or voltage.

Under hard load I have seen 400 amps, but Tim, who rode with me once, saw 460 amps. I have seen the voltage go as low as 138 volts (pack voltage). Nominal is 144 volts. Fully charged after the surface charge is gone I think I've been seeing around maybe 157. Right now it's sitting in the garage with a full charge from yesterday afternoon, and is at 163 volts.

Daniel
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:59 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion View Post


What if we doubled voltage by rewiring the batteries? You have twice the voltage, but also four times the internal resistance (going from parallel to series is 4x the resistance).
(288 Volts - 500 Amp * 0.0625 * 4) * 500 Amp = 82 kW
Same power! So rearranging the pack wiring doesn't help power. In reality there would be small efficiency benefits.
I would think efficiency benefits would be higher due to lower amperage and less heating loss, plus wouldn't the higher voltage allow the motor to have power at higher RPM's, and prevent voltage sag since you'd set the Zilla to maybe 192 for the motor while the pack would always be higher? I assumed there might be more real world improvements than the numbers suggest.
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:37 PM   #166
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That's right, your I^2*R losses are less with higher voltage, since you can run less current for the same power. However, your I^2*R losses are pretty small compared to what you need to move the car when you aren't racing. Even if you optimistically went from 80% to 85% efficient that's a small effect, that's 6% more power and range.

I don't know what motor Daniel has, but I've heard around 160 Volts is an upper bound for an Advanced DC motor, and 144 Volts is a pretty safe number. If you can safely go to 192 Volts that would be great.

Side note, that's one reason I bought an interpoled motor. Wayland ran his Kostov with a 336 V pack, and Berube runs his GE with a 348 V pack. These motors seem to be able to handle much higher voltages than most others.
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I would think efficiency benefits would be higher due to lower amperage and less heating loss, plus wouldn't the higher voltage allow the motor to have power at higher RPM's, and prevent voltage sag since you'd set the Zilla to maybe 192 for the motor while the pack would always be higher? I assumed there might be more real world improvements than the numbers suggest.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:14 PM   #167
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He has a Warp11 which I thought could go to 192 safely.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:22 PM   #168
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David:

Thanks for all those numbers. I'm going to run them by the local EV folks. I'm not sure there's any room for more batteries without taking out the back seat. I'd be happy to trade my back seat for better performance. But it would be a lot of work, and I'd have to decide who I'd trust to do it.

The motor is an 11-inch Warp motor. Several people have told me since, that a 9-inch would have been better under the circumstances, but I was supposed to have a thousand-amp controller, and based on Paul's descriptions, the 11-inch sounded like the way to go. Paul says that when the 1K controllers proved unreliable, he had no choice but to put in the 500-amp Curtis, but that left me with a mismatched system. And I was never consulted.
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Old 06-06-2009, 04:22 PM   #169
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Daniel,

I read this entire thread and I have to say that I am very sorry for your EV conversion experience. I have done 2 EV conversions so far and I am offering EV conversions in Tampa Bay to people like you, who are fascinated by electric propulsion, but not DIY type.
I have taken many points from your experience with Paul of what NOT to do with my customers.
I applaud that you remained positive after all that experience, it takes a lot of character...
Biggest issues to learn from here is that it takes a lot more effort to build freeway capable EV with good range, much more than to build a decent EV. You got a decent EV , ridiculously overpriced, but decent EV, not freeway capable and not a lot of range, but still a decent EV conversion. Not much decency in Paul's behaviour towards you, but that it impossible to know up front unless you checked many references, sadly it doesn't sound like you did.
A lot has been said here of possible improvements, many things from people who never built an EV, although they tend to think they understand the challenge very well. With 2 EVs under my belt, recent one being practically the same specs as your Porsche, I can point out things that make a big difference and things that make very little difference.
Big things:
- 11" motor is a huge overkill for this car, it carries extra 50Lb of metal and eats huge current at acceleration, none of which is good for the range.
- Curtis controller is a huge underperformer, although it is very dependable, but not suitable for the specs of your EV
- any controller that puts out the power you need for freeway will have to be water cooled, especially if you keep that 11" monster of a motor
- starting in 3rd gear is a range killer, anyone who speaks of direct drive has no idea of currents involved, direct drive is possible, but not effective at all, you need gears, especially with air cooled DC motor, which doesn't have much useful RPM band.
- your battery config is OK, its not even close to promised range and was grossly miscalculated, but its the best for this car, you wouldn't get any better battery of LiFePo4 chemistry, unless you wanted to pay the premium for small cylindrical cells, but its not worth the trouble IMHO.
- the best possible DC conversion of this car would give you perhaps 80-90 miles of low freeway speed with modest driving style. So promised 120+ range was always out of the question, no matter what Paul was hoping for.
- it takes 2 times energy to travel at 70mph vs. 50mph, due to exponential nature of air drag, that's why I said that freeway capable EV is far far away from a decent around town EV.

Small things:
- changing AC and PS from belt to separate electric drives is not going to save you. Results will not be as impressive as cost and labor to implement them. PS pump does not waste energy while driving straight line, nor does AC unless its turned on. Mechanical losses in belt drive are so small compared to overall energy levels involved that its negligible.

Your best bet is to improve this EV with help of local EV club guys, get a better controller, at least consider what it would take to switch to smaller 9" Warp motor, this might be too much of mechanical work involved to adapt plates and shaft couplers.

Synkromotive controller is very promising , but I am not sure it can drive 11" motor at freeway speeds with air cooling.

I am a lucky beta tester of EVNetics controller, which would do the job perfectly, but only when water cooled and it still won't help with the range issue.

Also, I wanted to mention that your conversion should not cost more than $25K, although I am sure you paid Paul much more, unfortunately.

Hope this helps.

Dimitri
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:23 AM   #170
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Hey Dimitri, good to see you here. About the power steering, I guess you're saying that the pumping losses when going straight are minimal since there is no load? What about the possibility of having an electric pump only turn on after a specified degree of wheel turn, since you don't really need power assist at speed? Not worth it? How much power does PS draw?
As to the motor, the plots for the Warp9 and Warp11 show the 11 drawing less amps at similar RPMs, and producing more torque per amp. http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_16_W...preadSheet.jpg
http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_20_W...preadSheet.jpg
Certainly the acceleration performance potential is higher with the 11, with the right controller.
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