doug

A Vision for High Speed Rail

Tdave

I want to load my electric car on a high speed auto train and charge it as I zip across the country.

C'mon Obama, integrate all these plans together:
High Speed Rail
Battery Electric Vehicles
Charging Infrastructure for long trips

graham

Yes, I had hopes that the CA HSR would include a car ferry with charging capabilities, but I guess that is not to be. I love the idea though. Forget stopping to charge your car, let your car charge while you both hurdle across the country at > 200 MPH!

vfx

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bobw

The problem with all of this is that, except for very high traffic commuter lines, passenger rail does not pay for itself. You cannot charge passengers enough to pay for their trip. High speed rail in Europe and Japan is subsidised. If we build it here it will also have to be subsidised. We will have to subsidize operations and maintenance, not just construction.

In times past the railroads had passenger service because it was expected. Companies did not squeeze every last penny the way they do now. As long as the overall company made a profit they were content. The postwar changes, including the interstate highway system and the airlines squeezed railroad profit margins, and they began to discontinue money losing operations. Amtrak was political.

We can't go back. We have to go forward. You can't unscramble an egg.

Now all the railfans will hate me, too.

vfx

Sharholders and companies demand more from their investment. Not content with 3 to 8 percent profit, the squeezing is to make as much as possible in the short term even if it eventually kills the business by forcing passengers to choose other options.

Also remember about Goodyear and GM killing all the Electric rail service to force buses and roads down our throats.

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The world loves to be deceived.

rsquared99

bobw - What passenger service isn't substidized? Airlines don't absorb the cost of airports, air traffic control, FAA, etc. Autos and buses don't absorb the cost of highways, police services, fuel systems, etc. What's the difference?

bobw

It's bad to add to it. Every little bit hurts. More and more economic activity ends up in government control.

Government agencies try to suppress private competitors.

If the government program does a lousy job it's tough to end it. Even privatization won't kill it. The program limps along with the occasional handout.

The bureaucrats don't care. They don't have to care. They're civil service and they often have a union. The politicians only care if they can get a campaign donation or financial favor from an interest group.

The voters don't care because they think government money comes from somebody else's taxes, which of course aren't high enough.

I would also point out that toll roads often make a profit.

Brent

Bobw isn't the first to make the argument, so without pointing fingers, let me express my general annoyance with it.

Its biggest problem is shortsightedness. One might do well to ask carefully whether ANY form of transportation, in fact, pays for itself.

Most of our transportation spending now goes towards roads, bridges, and the like, and we don't give much thought of recouping costs, much less making a profit on them. Tolls roads sometimes are profitable, but they are rare, and don't comprise the bulk of roads we use daily. (Imagine having to pay to drive to the grocery.)

Airlines and car companies sometimes make a profit, but they also depend on direct and indirect subsidies, including billions more spent on clean air and health care, and the "acceptable costs" of the thousands of (innocent) people killed each year by bad drivers.

I do find it ironic that rail is perhaps the only form of public transportation that even comes close to recovering costs -- yet the argument condemns it for failing to make a profit.

It makes no sense, and isn't an honest comparison. If we really add up costs, maybe rail would be the cheapest option. I dunno.

bobw

I have to disagree. Railroads have the lowest cost per ton-mile of any land transport. (River barges are even cheaper.) A train has rather high fixed costs. They don't go down with a lighter load. High speed rail on dedicated track is worse still.