Fisker Karma

[vfx]

From the LA times:
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-garage8sep08,0,7067906.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

Independent carmakers lead the way on plug-in hybrids

Image:
Henrik Fisker, chief executive of Fisker Automotive, poses with one of his most recent creations, the Tramonto.

Smaller firms have plans to market gasoline-electric cars that can go 45 to 50 miles on batteries alone.
By Martin Zimmerman, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 8, 2007


Yet another environmentally friendly automobile is headed your way -- if you have a spare $80,000 or so.

Irvine-based car designer Henrik Fisker just announced plans to unveil a plug-in hybrid at the Detroit auto show in January and to have his high-performance gasoline-electric sedans ready for sale in the U.S. within 18 months.

If Fisker's hybrid is too rich for your blood, and you're patient, no worries.

Industry veteran Malcolm Bricklin, who introduced America to both the Subaru brand and the Yugo, also announced plans for a luxury plug-in hybrid sedan, saying his cars would be available in the U.S. by 2010. And he said the sticker price would be about $35,000.

Whatever the price, suddenly, the plug-in hybrid market looks crowded.

The hybrids on the road now are powered by a gasoline engine that is assisted by an electric motor and can run short distances at low speeds on electric power alone.

The plug-in hybrids on the drawing board will feature much more powerful battery packs that can power the car on electricity alone for many miles at highway speeds. And unlike electric cars, when the battery gives out, the gasoline motor takes over -- either to drive the wheels directly or to produce electricity to power the electric motor. The batteries could be recharged overnight at a household outlet.

Both Fisker and Bricklin are aiming for electricity-only ranges of 45 to 50 miles -- far enough to allow many drivers to spend most days cruising on electrons alone.

"Our car can become your main car," Fisker says. "If you decide this afternoon, 'Hey, I want to go to Las Vegas,' you can do that. You can't do that in an electric car."

Plug-ins could be just the thing to satisfy car buyers looking for relief from high gas prices -- and for auto companies facing the possibility of much tougher fuel economy standards from the federal government.

General Motors Corp., Toyota Motor Corp. and Ford Motor Co. are pursuing plug-in technology but aren't expected to have models in showrooms until shortcomings of the current generation of batteries are overcome.

Fisker is a well-known designer of high-end sports cars, including the BMW Z8 and the Aston Martin DB9 and V8 Vantage. To produce the plug-in hybrid, he has formed a joint venture with Irvine-based Quantum Technologies, which will provide the crucial battery and powertrain design.

While providing few details, Chief Executive Alan Niedzwiecki said his company had developed a lithium ion battery pack that solves the overheating problems that have complicated development of plug-ins.

"There are few automotive companies that have their own battery, and we're one of them," he said.

The joint venture, named Fisker Automotive Inc., will contract out the production of the cars to a vehicle manufacturer. Initial plans are to build 15,000 of the premium-priced vehicles a year, and then in four to five years introduce a second plug-in design priced at $35,000 to $40,000.

Fisker wouldn't discuss financing, other than to say the company has attracted interest from venture capitalists and has enough cash for initial operations.

Bricklin, whose up-and-down auto industry career has earned him comparisons to P.T. Barnum, is raising money from a network of dealer-investors and also plans to announce more investors this month. He originally planned to build the cars in China but now is considering other sites.

Fisker said he was confident he could find buyers for his pricey plug-ins, especially because he plans to market the car heavily in Europe. He expects the car to be popular with movie stars and other wealthy individuals who want to be "eco chic."

"We wanted to create a vehicle that's environmentally correct but looks good and performs better than the car you're driving today," he said.

Another high-end, eco-friendly carmaker, Tesla Motors Inc. of San Carlos, Calif., is finding a receptive audience for its $98,000 electric roadster. The company has received nearly 600 orders for the high-performance car, which will be built in England and have a range of more than 200 miles.

"That's way more than what we were anticipating," said Darryl Siry, head of marketing and sales for Tesla. "We're very happy with it."

Tesla hopes to ship the first roadster this year and has plans to introduce a less expensive vehicle -- although still priced at more than $50,000 -- by 2010. That car will be assembled in New Mexico.

Rumors are swirling that the car, code-named Whitestar, will be a plug-in hybrid, which could give it a broader appeal than the electric-only roadster. Siry declined to comment on the rumors.

Jack Nerad, an auto market analyst at Irvine-based Kelley Blue Book, said independent carmakers like Fisker and Tesla are aiming to meet demand from consumers who are tired of waiting for GM, Toyota and the other auto giants to bring new technology to market.

"There's a thirst from a segment of the public for environmentally friendlier vehicles than what is now available from the big manufacturers -- even beyond what is available in hybrids," Nerad said.

"And this is fueling the entrepreneurial spirit. There are people who think they can make money at this."

martin.zimmerman@latimes.com

[vfx]

I liked the idea that Fisker would be designing the Whitestar.

The La Times article was from Sept 8th. Given the lead time of magazine publishing that date is probably after the column written by Henrik Fisker in the latest issue of Luxury Exotics magazine. On page (16) he writes on design trends. In the last paragraph Henrik writes:

"So in order to bring more cars to the road that will give me that sense of pride, I have embarked upon a top secret project with a brand new car company, building enviromentally friendly luxury cars. Hopefully I can tell you a bit more about it in my next column."

If not for that LA times article, I would think "a brand new car company" would mean Tesla.

I'm still hoping.

[TEG]

http://zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/image/cars/fisker/9080111.014.Mini1L.jpg
http://zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/image/cars/fisker/9080111.014.Mini3L.jpg
http://zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/image/cars/fisker/9080111.014.Mini4L.jpg

* small gasoline motor to recharge the Li-Ion battery pack
* (up to) 50 miles per charge before the ICE has to kick in
* 0 to 60 in 6 seconds
* 125+ MPH top speed
* "Stealth Mode" (EV only?) and "Sport Mode" (keep the ICE running?)
* Expected to be available Q4 2009

[donauker]

Oh no! I am feeling the overpowering urge to fill out that preorder form!

[tonybelding]

The Fisker Karma is WhiteStar.

Its specs, price point, and overall demeanor are very close to what I'd been led to envision for WhiteStar, or at least for WhiteStar reconfigured as a PHEV. But it goes beyond that. Even the shape of the car. . . If you look at the stance, and the curves, if you look at the lines of the fender swells even. . . It looks like a close relative of the Tesla Roadster. The nose and grill is completely different, but the rest of the car is basically the Roadster's big brother.

It makes me once again wonder if Tesla contracted Fisker for design work on the WhiteStar -- then something didn't work out between the two companies, and Fisker ended up using the design for their own product. Maybe we'll never know, but simply looking at the car forces me to speculate about things like that.

BTW, I'm also very concerned about the lack of WhiteStar info from Tesla. There's no indication that they've even made basic design decisions about it. What will the chassis be made of? Where will the battery be arranged in the vehicle? What will the body be made of? Will it be a BEV or PHEV or both?

I'm not saying Tesla should reveal the answers to these questions. I'm just saying, somebody inside Tesla had darn well better know the answers to them by now.

[Cobos]

I'll agree with you that the Fisker Karma most probably will hit all the same customers that would want the Whitestar, but there is/was one difference.

The original Whitestar plans said the whitestar would be $50-65 and with a much longer EV range, as it was a pure BEV.
For me personally I the $50k price of the Whitestar would be within realistic reach in a few years, but the $80-100 is simply too much. In many ways the $50 is too much for financial sanity :)

Cobos

[mt2]

This is interesting - I just Googled for Fisker Karma and most sites have a mention that the images have been removed at the request of Fisker automotive.

[donauker]

This is interesting - I just Googled for Fisker Karma and most sites have a mention that the images have been removed at the request of Fisker automotive.

The unveiling is scheduled for tomorrow. I expect those pictures were originally given out with the requirement that they only be posted after that time, but someone leaked them early.

[TEG]

http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/9/0/8/0/1/9080111.014.Mini6L2.jpg

[tonybelding]

For me personally I the $50k price of the Whitestar would be within realistic reach in a few years, but the $80-100 is simply too much. In many ways the $50 is too much for financial sanity :)

I had mis-remembered the price of the Fisker, it is indeed quite a bit higher than the projections for WhiteStar.

[malcolm]

If the plan is to develop Whitestar with a major US car maker then Tesla's role will be drivetrain-only. Not sure how that will work out. Will someone be able to stop Elon jumping in with requests for styling changes.....again.

Maybe Whitestar should be an all-electric version of the new Lotus Eagle. At least both companies know what to expect.

[tonybelding]

Incidentally. . . It occurred to me that the price signals a difference in attitude between Tesla and Fisker too. Tesla's cars are expensive, but there's always a sort of apologetic tone about it:

"Yes our cars are expensive, but they're less than others in their performance class."

"Yes our cars are expensive, but we have more affordable ones in the works."

"Yes our cars are expensive, but you can save some on fuel and maintenance."

With Fisker there's no apologetic tone. They're more like. . .

"Yes our cars are expensive and ex-clu-SEEV, just the way you want them!"

[Cobos]

Tony:
I beleive that comes down to price. The Tesla Whitestar at $50k-65k would be a bit more expensive than a similary spec'ed BMW with a gas engine. The Fisker on the other hand is clearly a lot more expensive and I figure for most american buyers it NEEDS to be exclusive to sell at all.
That on the other hand doesn't imply that they should have any problem getting them off the lots. Considering the lack of competition I figure there wont be any other sporty sedans with a decent electric range in 2009. Unless GM somehow can make a R version of their Volt platform.

Cobos

[Cobos]

Wierd, they had their "big" announcement yesterday and their counter reached 0 and NOTHING happened. I haven't seen any change on their webpage and all the news about the Fisker Karma has been about the leak of the pictures nothing now that it's official ??

Cobos

[donauker]

Their press conference is listed on the show schedule for 12:00 Noon today. I was wondering about a midnight unveiling.

[Cobos]

Aha. So about 18:00 at GMT+1 then. I'll be on the lookout, thanks.

Cobos

[donauker]

New Fisker Site is alive!

Fisker Automotive (http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/)

[donauker]

Additional Image:

http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/images/uploads/Fisker_Karma_34rear_1024x768.jpg

[TEG]

It is a rather large vehicle.
Length: 195.67 inches (4970mm)
Width: 78.11 inches (1984mm)

It appears that the first 99 "signature" cars will be silver, not the blue in the press photos.


Electric-Car Firms Get Star Investors - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120027887033287745.html)

[vfx]

That red one on thier site looks good enough to eat!

The wife says the Whitestar is out.

[donauker]

Looks very good indeed!

http://www.meadowoodcircle.com/images/red_image1.jpg
http://www.meadowoodcircle.com/images/red_image2.jpg

[TEG]

That front hood ("nose") seems excessively long to me.
Also, the width (at nearly 80") would be bothersome when all you can find are compact parking spaces (but this sort of vehicle will probably be valet parked much of the time).

I wish they had a bit more "cab forward" going on with the design.

But, still, it is a sexy looking vehicle, and is about in line with what I was thinking Whitestar would look like. Is this turning out to be the "Whitestar killer"? I had been wondering if Tesla was somehow involved with this vehicle, but it doesn't appear that they have had anything to do with it.

I wonder if Tesla has anything to say about the introduction of this vehicle? It sure would seem to be encroaching on their business plan.

[TEG]

I wonder what they consider the "MPG" or "MPGE" for this?
With plug-in capability the MPGE would vary depending on how much you actually plug it in. I am not sure how they will handle that fact when trying to put EPA MPG ratings on the factory sticker.

[stopcrazypp]

The car looks more like a green version of the Maserati Quattroporte costing $112,200. Comments on the blogs say the car is INEXPENSIVE at $80k. Makes you wonder if whitestar will be able to meet it's original $50k target (there are hints that the whitestar will be closer to 60-70k). Maybe Tesla should increase it's size and sell it for a higher price, like the fisker. A side note: the Fisker has a high powered four cylinder as it's generator.
What Fisker has on its side is that the Karma is intended to be a low volume car, and thus the $80k tag is quite reasonable even if the size is closer to a m5. However, Tesla is planning larger volume for the Whitestar, so it hits a price like $60-70 (80?)k then it will likely lose to the Karma.
The Karma has a great impact on the future of the Whitestar, I'm glad this car got brought up.

[donauker]

What Fisker has on its side is that the Karma is intended to be a low volume car, and thus the $80k tag is quite reasonable even if the size is closer to a m5. However, Tesla is planning larger volume for the Whitestar, so it hits a price like $60-70 (80?)k then it will likely lose to the Karma.

Fisker has stated an annual production of 15,000 cars. As I recall Tesla had indicated around 10,000 for the Whitestar. Of course only time will tell if Fisker can get anywhere close to their number.

[Cobos]

The car looks more like a green version of the Maserati Quattroporte costing $112,200. Comments on the blogs say the car is INEXPENSIVE at $80k. Makes you wonder if whitestar will be able to meet it's original $50k target (there are hints that the whitestar will be closer to 60-70k). Maybe Tesla should increase it's size and sell it for a higher price, like the fisker.
As I mentioned above currently this looks like the earliest and closest I'll get to a Whitestar spec'ed vehicle any time soon, too bad it's out of my league. Hopefully they'll consider a cheapo version at around $50 soon :)


A side note: the Fisker has a high powered four cylinder as it's generator.
I've not seen anything on this one, do you have a source for that?

The Karma has a great impact on the future of the Whitestar, I'm glad this car got brought up.
On that we agree, this will probably stop price and feature creep for the possible Whitestar, i.e. they need a significantly cheaper car or be able to beat the Fisker as a REEV at their price point.

Cobos

[stopcrazypp]

Fisker has stated an annual production of 15,000 cars. As I recall Tesla had indicated around 10,000 for the Whitestar. Of course only time will tell if Fisker can get anywhere close to their number.
Woops, sorry, I read 99 cars at autoblog, but that was referring to the signed cars (sort of like the signature 100 roadsters). I looked back at some articles and it was 15,000 cars for 2009. So you are right.



I've not seen anything on this one, do you have a source for that?

Autoblog mentions: "The Karma is powered by what's being called Q-DRIVE, a system developed by Quantum Technologies that combines a four-cylinder engine sending power to a generator to propel the four-door sedan."
Detroit 2008: Fisker Karma draws a crowd, impresses - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/detroit-2008-fisker-karma-draws-a-crowd-impresses/)

Jalopnik mentions: "A true lithium-ion plug-in hybrid, the electrical system is good for 50 miles of electric-only driving in stealth mode. Otherwise, the second mode of the hybrid system involves a performance-oriented four cylinder engine."
Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Karma Luxury Hybrid, Only $80,000 (http://jalopnik.com/344419/detroit-auto-show-fisker-karma-luxury-hybrid-only-80000)

Other numbers include 5.8 sec 0-60, 125mph top speed, but I think this was mentioned before.

[tonybelding]

Jalopnik has photos of the interior. . .

IMG_5226.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/fiskerkarmainterior/1000487271)

Seats look okay. The dash and steering wheel, to me, are a failure. I couldn't even figure out how to read those gauges, and the last thing I want is a bunch of controls on the steering wheel. That's where the horn should be, and nothing else.

[vfx]

Autobloggreen took pics at the Detroit show:
AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/gallery/detroit-2008-fisker-hybrid-live-reveal/584123/)

That hood has such (unpleasent) sharp lines down the middle.

And those door window buttons look 70's retro.

[malcolm]

Is this turning out to be the "Whitestar killer"?

Very good. Solar roof is frivolous. Interior is disturbing.

Don't think it kills Whitestar, but really throws down a much needed design challenge to Tesla on styling, kerb weight, all-electric range and fuel economy.

[Cobos]

I don't think this in itself is going to be a Whitestar killer, but it clearly shows what kind of vehicle you can get as a sporty sedan hybrid. If the Whitestar remains a pure BEV they might hit a different part of the market.

The important question the way I see it is when will they start selling in Europe?

Cobos

[TEG]

Tesla had become so vocal recently saying that "range extended EVs" are a good thing and that they consider them basically just EVs with a fallback plan for long trips.

It seems they did a good job of telling possible Whitestar customers that they approve of the Fisker concept. Ordinarily I would have thought the Tesla angle would have been to criticize the Fisker for being compromised (still has an ICE), but they seemed to toss out that trump card just in time for Fisker to take the stage.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5M9AZUNo2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G04YHKJOuK8

[vfx]

There are at least a 6 of those Chevy commercials with Wayne Wilderson ("Bill" the WaMU guy) teaching kids about their green cars.

Maybe like Jobs bringing Apple from the ashes Martin could pull a Phoenix for GM.

Very impressive indeed.

It's a strong beautiful design statement. compared to the more simple conservative Roadster it has is more aggressive in the character department.

So to speculate the Karma VS the unseen Whitestar, If Tesla makes a similar gas powered battery system then they will certainly have their hands full competing against this beautiful car.

If the Whitestar design goes bland compared to the Karma then they have to make it up on price.

But if the Whitestar goes full E then the cars are in a different enough class that comparisons are much harder even if prices are similar.

A gasoline motor in the Whitestar now competes it with the Karma and the Volt, and a handful of other prototypes waiting in the wings. They loose that "E"ttribute that no large automaker touching.

There is a fork in the road. If Tesla turns to the gas-powered right and looses the focus and the promise the company was founded on, then they will find that road leads to an abyss they can never return from.

[Cobos]

As I've said a few times before they will in many ways loose their USP with a REEV Whitestar but currently there is room between the Volt and the Karma. About $50 000 seperates the two, and not to mention the styling on both the Volt concept (which of course will be drasticly changed) and the Karma are pretty aggressive designs. With a much more subdued design they might hit a different segment.

Speaking of the Karma, I'm a bit curious about the two-mode system, does this mean I can't get full accel without using the ICE engine ? And a 4 cyl high-power engine sounds like a lot of exhaust when it does start up.

Still a pure BEV version of the Whitestar makes so much more sense, especially since Tesla most likely will have to buy the ICE parts anyway from a regular carcompany and there goes their margin...

Cobos

[TEG]

Fisker tidbits here:
Green Car Advisor - Detroit Show: Fisker's $80,000 Good Karma (http://blogs.edmunds.com/.eea2439)
=================
"Fisker and Niedzwiecki would't divulge details about the battery pack except to say it uses real automotive-quality lithium-ion cells and isn't a series of wired-together laptop cells as is the case with Tesla Motorcars' upcoming battery-electric roadster."
...
"Like the so-called range-extended electric systems shown last year by General Motors in its Chevrolet Volt concept and Ford Motor Co. in its Hy-Motion concept, the Fisker system uses its conventional engine only as a generator to produce juice for the batteries and rear-mounted electric motor that propels the car.

Fisker said he expects the Karma to deliver up to 350 miles on a tank of gas as the engine cycles on and off during long trips as it charges the batteries and then shuts down until they are depleted again."
=================

What exactly "stealth" vs "sport" does isn't clear, but the suggestion that "stealth mode" is more quiet makes me think it is the EV only mode.
If turning on the ICE/generator offers better performance than that suggests that the eMotor is current limited by the battery pack and the motor controller can pass along some of the generator current when it is running.

I haven't seen many details published about their drivetrain, but I will speculate it might be like this:

(American made, probably GM or Ford) inline 4 under the front hood coupled to a generator where a conventional car would normally have a transmission.
Long row of Li-Ion batteries in the gap between the seats where a driveshaft would go in a conventional RWD vehicle. An AC motor in back attached to some sort of differential (driving the rear wheels).

For ranger used the rear eMotor/RWD.
EV1 used a battery tray down the center like this.

[TEG]

Since Fisker is still keeping the Karma details under wraps, I am going to speculate some possible ballpark numbers.

I suspect that the vehicle weighs at least 4000lbs even though it uses light technology (like Aluminum body).
I suspect that the eMotor is even more powerful than the one in the Roadster. To get 0-60 in under 6 with a vehicle that heavy I would guess that the eMotor could make 300hp.
I am going to guess that it has a 4 cyl all aluminum inline 4 ICE that can make 150hp. When you use that to turn a generator, create DC, invert it to AC, and such with losses you are down closer to 100hp to the wheels just from the ICE.
I would guess (based on comments that Stealth mode doesn't offer full performance) that the batteries can only provide enough current to make 200hp when the generator isn't running.
I am going to guess Valence, AltairNano or Saft for the batteries.

(All of this is just wild speculation... I could be completely wrong).

[DDB]

$80-100K? For you number crunchers, what would the economies of scale of a GM or Chrysler do if one of the majors were to produce this beautiful car?


It just seems logical to me that a Ford or Chrysler buy, or at least license the technology here because the old model business plan isn't working. What do they have to lose?

[AGR]

The venture capital folks of Silicon Valley in their quest for the next big thing have made a decision to get in the "electric car" business, on the premise that a small, innovative, creative, agile company can out maneouver the clumsy giants of the industry.

In the meantime everyone is holding their breath to see who comes out of vapor ware mode first with a real car that actually gets built in reasonable numbers and is delivered to real customers.

We could almost call it the battle of the vapor ware between a few potential manufacturers.

[vfx]

"We could almost call it the battle of the vapor ware between a few potential manufacturers."


The VCs have placed thier bets.

Aaaaaaannnnnnddddd......The great 21st century Vapor race has begun!

[TEG]

Sometimes I wonder if the VCs are actually funding this more for fun and egos than for expectations of great returns. The business case still seems really shaky here.

[AGR]

You know the saying "You throw enough on the wall some will stick" the VC's seem to work on that saying.

The bebnefit is that ot does encourage change, innovation, creativity, the VC's are very good with concepts that are initially disruptive.

[TEG]

Someone pointed out that the Karma looks a bit like the 2003 Chevy SS concept.

http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/full/TorqueOmata2804.jpg
http://www.meadowoodcircle.com/images/red_image1.jpg

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2000-2003/2003-Chevy-SS-Concept-Car-front-angle-mountains.jpg

[Kardax]

Wow, they are similar. Fisker has a few more lines to it, but the basic shape is very close. Both are somewhat like an elongated RX-8, now that I think about it.

On the VC thing, they go into these deals knowing the odds aren't very good. But a good VC will throw money at 15 projects, lose money on 14, and make a 30x return on the successful one.

-Ryan

[TEG]

Yeah, they place bets that the Dark Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_horse) (or Darkstar as it were) will unexpectedly win.

[TEG]

Fisker vs Chrysler 300 concept:
http://www.madle.org/300conc2.JPG
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/01/fiskerkarmalive83.jpg

[Kardax]

Wow, another similarity.

I'm starting to think that as aerodynamics become more and more important to to vehicle design, all cars are going to start looking similar, more Aptera-like...

-Ryan

[TEG]

European debut:

Video: sports car that runs for a year on one tank of petrol - Times Online (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/geneva_motor_show/article3494301.ece)

[stopcrazypp]

European debut:

Video: sports car that runs for a year on one tank of petrol - Times Online (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/geneva_motor_show/article3494301.ece)

Perhaps Fisker was bringing it on themselves by making that claim, but from reading the comments it's depressing how many of them give the same tired arguments against EVs. Some even made the same mistake of forgetting this is a PHEV that can run on normal fuel when it's out of batteries. Then there are those who expect the battery to be useless in 5 years, completely ignorant of the capabilities of modern day li-ion batteries.

Next time these PHEVs should stop making claims that don't put into account the efficiency of the EV drivetrain. Typical EVs usually at least supply the equivalent mpg figure. Most PHEVs I have seen makes ridiculous mpg claims that don't reflect the energy used by the battery at all. They all make claims like 150+mpg or 300+mpg when that mpg only refers to gallons of FUEL used and not the actual equivalent efficiency, which is usually much, much lower. This almost always leads to these same tired arguments against EVs.

[TEG]

Overinflated claims are the enemy of adoption. If people find out that some of the statements are misleading then they won't have the trust to switch to that alternate technology. EVs should be sold on merits, not hype.

[siry]

I wrote a post on my impressions from the Fisker reveal when I was at the Detroit show. I forget if I posted it here: Horseless Age: Fisker Automotive (http://sirycars.blogspot.com/2008/01/fisker-automotive.html)

[stopcrazypp]

Okay, this is a pretty stupid move that will certainly be rediculed by those of the internet community:
"But the electric motor also has an unexpected side effect: It is completely silent, Fisker says, which might worry pedestrians with bad eyesight and disappoint sports car freaks keen to hear the roar of their machines.




Fisker says the solution is speakers the company has added inside and outside the vehicle. One option will allow drivers to make their car sound ''like something between a Formula One car and a jet plane,'' and certainly loud enough to be heard by pedestrians.




A gimmick? Fisker says most car makers already tinker with the sound of the engine.



''It's been enhanced and manipulated to make sure it sounds good,'' he says. ''Part of any experience is the acoustic experience.'' "

http://www.forbesautos.com/news/headlines/2008/march/ap031208-geneva-auto-show-superhybrids.html

Tire noise is still going to exist so I don't see why they have to deliberately do this. This is similar to the vroombox designed to make minivans sound like exotic cars. This is an expensive car, and this kind of imitation of sound is going to be laughed at.
You have people laughing here already:
Fisker Karma to project a jet turbine sound using speakers - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/13/fisker-karma-to-project-a-jet-turbine-sound-using-speakers/)

Then you have people using this as a chance to bash EVs:
"That is one of the lamest ideas I have ever heard. If you want your car to sound cool, don't buy a damn electric car.

I have an idea: I'm going to buy a lamborghini and put a sticker on it that says ''electric vehicle''. That way, I can have the sound, looks, performance, and prestige that comes with owning a Lamborghini, and the pretentiousness of thinking that I am saving the world that comes with owning an electric car."

I don't agree, I think EVs have their own distinct sound that is pleasing to hear, and can certainly qualify as "cool". The sound is similar to a jet turbine or a supercharger and quite frankly is one of the most futuristic sounds you can hear. It doesn't need some speaker to mimic other sounds.

[BBHighway]

I think sound effects are a pretty bad idea. I don't want my electric car to sound like it has an engine.

I'm not completely convinced that it is such a great a hazard to blind people, but if that's true then maybe give it two horns, a traditional loud one, and a softer, less offensive one that just says "I'm here". If you see someone who looks inattentive and might step out in your way, you can let them know your coming.

Come to think of it, there are times in a regular car when that would be handy.

The down side is that people would have to figure out which horn to use, and often you don't have but a second, or even less, to hit it. I guess put the traditional one in the traditional place, and the softer one somewhere else. That way, in a panic, you would still go for the loud one, and it would still get the job done, just not as nicely.

[mt2]

My thought on sound effects is that noise is a form of pollution, too.

I used to work in downtown Chicago and still stay there overnight when seeing a show or something. It's amazing how quiet the city gets after dark when the traffic dies down. We've just become accustomed to the noise we create, and maybe the world would be a lot more peaceful if we all drove electric cars.

[TEG]

I think it is one of those phases that "EV people" go through when they say "Eureka! I could use my sound system to make my EV sound like an ICE!"
Lots of people spontaneously thought of that idea when they first pondered the Tesla. It is an old idea that just keeps resurfacing. I think it shows that Fisker is a little immature in this area that they get excited enough to actually make an announcement that they plan to offer it as a feature.

Many ICE vehicles have very quiet engines now such that engine noise is no suitable warning to pedestrians. Cars have horns already that you can use if you see a pedestrian that needs your attention. The fake ICE noises would be fun for some, but tacky for many others. I would make it a "hidden option" that only a nerd/geek could figure out how to unlock with the car control computer. The average customer might be better off not knowing such a thing even exists.

---


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EYZYQtus08

Perhaps they could add sound effects for squealing tires around corners, and a simulated crashing sound whenever the airbags go off! :biggrin:

[TEG]

Tunnel Run cred...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjMyf5xUceg

[Albern]

Here's my thoughts on the subject:

- The idea of speakers to make car "noises" is ridiculous since it isn't even related to the characteristics of EVs.
- Additional speakers add more weight and utilizes more energy (Gordon Murray when designing the McLaren F1 was so vigilant on saving weight he even had Kenwood design speakers exclusively for the car that were significantly lighter)
- I'm all about safety for both pedestrians and motorists but people should simply be more aware of the other to begin with - easier said than done unfortunately.
- I like the idea of two sets of horns; one soft and one loud. Maybe the loud one could where you would normally expect to find one on the centre of the steering wheel while buttons could be at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions for easy access to warn others.
- The paradigm around performance = extremely loud should and will change over time.

Nonetheless the sound of a Tesla or any well engineered EV at any speed is music to my ears (or lack thereof). Especially the Eliica.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG3Bc2WOdG4

[TEG]

I like the idea of two sets of horns; one soft and one loud.

How about a pressure sensitive horn... The harder you push the louder it gets?

[malcolm]

Apparently, many years ago, Frank Williams, the F1 Team Manager had loudspeakers installed in the rear pillars of his Esprit so that he could talk to other road users!

What is it about otherwise intelligent, successful men that they come up with ideas like this?

Let's hope Elon keeps his head screwed on.

I was willing to overlook the Karma's rather pointless photovoltaics-on-the-roof but this "Vroom-box" undermines the credibility of EVs in the eyes of the public.

As annoying and unnecessary as GM's Volt advert with the doggie bath.

Still, I think Darryl should do another Mythbuster on "Quieter cars and pedestrian safety"

[BBHighway]

".. but this "Vroom-box" undermines the credibility of EVs in the eyes of the public."

That's the big problem; EVs don't have credibility with most of the public. They think EVs are weird. Rather than try to counter that perception, most EV makers keep reinforcing it:

* NEVs that only run at reduced speed
* Three wheelers
* Strange looking vehicles like the Aptera
* Bizzare commercials
* Vaporware with outlandish claims like the ZAP-X

So now Fisker comes along with a car that is attractive while still looking like a regular car, and has great performance, (at least on paper), and then they have to go and spoil it with stupid gimmicks.

Tesla stands alone as the only normal, attrative, high performance car that just happens to not use any liquid fuel of any kind.

[Cobos]

I still think PV on the roof does make a bit of sense. But only to drive the AC within the car/battery during hot summers days when that problem is important. That way you can probably sit parked somewhere in the sun and keep the temperature at decent level inside the car and not have to "turn on the engine" as you would with a dinocar (well use the main battery in this case but you get my point).
Making cars deliberately more noisy sounds pretty silly, and might even be illegal here. Strictly speaking using the horn in Norway for anything but an emergency is forbidden. So the first think a Norwegian importer would do would be remove that feature I guess..

Cobos

[Albern]

How about a pressure sensitive horn... The harder you push the louder it gets?

It's a good idea and it could work, but for safety features like a horn I think it should be as simple as possible when it comes to operation.

I seem to remember the Lightning Car Company (Welcome to Lightning Car Company - The UK's Premier Electric Sports Car (http://www.lightningcarcompany.com/)) in the first version of their website "offering" external speakers to make ICE noises on their supposed EV as well.


I still think PV on the roof does make a bit of sense. But only to drive the AC within the car/battery during hot summers days when that problem is important. That way you can probably sit parked somewhere in the sun and keep the temperature at decent level inside the car and not have to "turn on the engine" as you would with a dinocar (well use the main battery in this case but you get my point).

PVs on the roof are a great feature. I know they have something in the area of 30% efficiency and perhaps someone could shed more light on this but in an EV application would it be able to collect enough energy to regulate the temperature of the battery pack on those hot sunny days (when parked)?

[TEG]

I seem to remember the Lightning Car Company "offering" external speakers to make ICE noises on their supposed EV as well.

Welcome to Lightning Car Company - The UK's Premier Electric Sports Car (http://www.lightningcarcompany.com/specifications.php)

Lightning GT - Standard Features

Anti lock braking system
Traction control
Regenerative braking
Electronic door entry
Programmable external engine sound generator
Central door locking
Alarm and immobilizer
Electric windows
Acoustic information and entertainment system
Part leather/alcantara sports seats
Forged alloy wheels
Tinted windows
Home based charging system (EVCS) with integral safety features
Hella focused beam halogen headlamps
LED taillights, front, rear and side-mounted lights

[malcolm]

OMG! They put it on the official feature list!!

Why don't these people seem to believe in a) their own product and b) the intelligence of the public?

[malcolm]

Valmet to manufacture Fisker Karma - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/15/valmet-to-manufacture-fisker-karma/)

50 miles electric only
Overall range 350 miles
Top speed of 125 mph
0-60 time of about 5.8 seconds.

[tonybelding]

My previous experience with Valmet was as a manufacturer of AKM assault rifle clones. I never knew they made cars.

[Chris H.]

Looks like the Fisker Karma might beat the Tesla Model S to market... That wouldn't be good for TM.

[TEG]

My previous experience with Valmet was as a manufacturer of AKM assault rifle clones. I never knew they made cars.

Sounds like "bad Karma" to make cars at a gun factory. :eek:

[graham]

Looks like the Fisker Karma might beat the Tesla Model S to market... That wouldn't be good for TM.

Potentially not good, true. But even if the Karma is delayed and the Model S comes before it they are going to be close enough that it will serve as close competition for each other. It would be nice to start hearing more solid details about both the Model S and the Karma, soon.

[tonybelding]

Potentially not good, true. But even if the Karma is delayed and the Model S comes before it they are going to be close enough that it will serve as close competition for each other. It would be nice to start hearing more solid details about both the Model S and the Karma, soon.

The Karma will be a plug-in hybrid. The Model S, we now know, will only be available as a purely electric car. So. . . Even though they will be competing, it seems like the distinctions between them should be pretty clear.

[DDB]

The Karma will be a plug-in hybrid. The Model S, we now know, will only be available as a purely electric car. So. . . Even though they will be competing, it seems like the distinctions between them should be pretty clear.

That's a good point. TM seems to have hinted the Model S would be a BEV, then a E-REV, then a BEV again. It'll be difficult to argue in court (or arbitration) that Fisker infringed on TM's IP when the substance of the vehicles are so different. And yes, I understand the components can be similar; but let's face it, these are very different vehicles.

The other thing is Fisker hasn't had to deal with the growing pains of production. Tesla clearly has the experience with the Roadster... Of course Fisker may be wise in outsourcing it. As for Valment, someone posted on one of these sites they manufactured Saab vehicles. I'm not sure if that's true.

[graham]

The Karma will be a plug-in hybrid. The Model S, we now know, will only be available as a purely electric car. So. . . Even though they will be competing, it seems like the distinctions between them should be pretty clear.

True, it is not like anyone will confuse the 2 cars. And in a healthy market, they probably wouldn't be considered even in the same category.

But since the category of plug-in EV is so very small, they will definitely be compared to each other. I can't imagine someone in the market for one not at least glancing at the other.

It is something the Roadster has had the luxury of not having. If you want a plug-in car that does highway speeds, has passed NTSB standards and doesn't look terrible - you have a choice of 1. So people who are interested in plug-in cars who might never be interested in a super-high-end sports car are interested in Tesla. If the Roadster were more delayed and the Volt quicker to market, they would probably be compared against each other, as ludicrous as that would seem if they both were standard ICE cars. The Model S and the Karma are much closer to each others target market than that.

[vfx]

But even if the Karma is delayed and the Model S comes before it they are going to be close enough that it will serve as close competition for each other.
and
"The Karma will be a plug-in hybrid. The Model S, we now know, will only be available as a purely electric car. So. . . Even though they will be competing, it seems like the distinctions between them should be pretty clear."

With gas prices ever rising I'm betting that both will sell all the cars they can make in the first few years.



"Tesla clearly has the experience with the Roadster..."

Wow. Tesla is now the EV sage? How quickly they turn.

[Cobos]

I'm not sure how this is with you, but for me the suggested price is a major differencing factor actually. The S will be just above what I would normalluy consider sane for a car purchase for me. The Karma is so much above it's no use dreaming. A bit like the Roadster in that regard. A car purchase shouldn't have a higher purchase price than yearly household income I beleive :) Especially not when there is a mortgage and student loans on top off that.

Cobos

[Chris H.]

Has anyone considered that in the second MY for the Karma, Fisker may offer a pure BEV option?

[DDB]

Irvine, Calif.-based Fisker Automotive (http://media.cleantech.com/companies/fisker-automotive) is going to Finland for the production of its first plug-in hybrid, announcing today that Valmet Automotive, which makes Porsche's Boxter and Cayman models, will produce the Karma sedan beginning in the fourth quarter of 2009.



Oh yeah, Fisker has taken approx. 1,000 orders for the Karma.

Cleantech cars advance as old guard stumbles | Cleantech Group (http://media.cleantech.com/3095/finlands-valmet-to-build-fisker-plug-in-hybrids)

[vfx]

Oh yeah, Fisker has taken approx. 1,000 orders for the Karma.

Count my wife as one of those.
It's "only" $1K to hold a spot. She dearly loves her Saab but she recently crossed the 100K mark and will be shopping soon.

It's a bit disconcerting that there is a chance we will loose the money if the company goes under and the price of all (Model S, Volt, Karma) these cars is high for us but the prices keep going up so we look at it as some sort of investment.

[Albern]

Hey Guys,

Has anyone else on here considered / placed an order on the Karma? Based on my driving needs I would prefer a series hybrid option over a BEV. I liked the idea of being able to draw on two energy sources that already has a significant infrastructure in place and is practically "ubiquitous".

Although Model S is not completely out of the picture for me, if it cannot satisfy my needs I guess I'm left with either the Karma or the Volt. Given Fisker's lack of experience in after -sales service, technological / engineering know-how (in automotive applications such as drivetrains), and their history with Tesla would anyone consider the Karma as good alternative?

[DDB]

Count my wife as one of those.
It's "only" $1K to hold a spot. She dearly loves her Saab but she recently crossed the 100K mark and will be shopping soon.

It's a bit disconcerting that there is a chance we will loose the money if the company goes under and the price of all (Model S, Volt, Karma) these cars is high for us but the prices keep going up so we look at it as some sort of investment.

Congrats. The small deposit thing worked for the Smart car. I'm more likely to go with the Volt, but it all sort of depends what is available when. It's just nice to see Fisker outsourced production to someone that can obviously handle it.

[Cobos]

Just saw an article in a Norwegian car website (http://www.bilnorge.no/vis_artikkel.php3?aid=32593&tid=10) saying Valmet did not get a renewal for their Porsche contract beyond 2011, which might be the reason they've got capacity to build the Karma. If they are still building Porsches at full speed until 2011 I have a hard time seeing how they will build many Karmas at the same time. Anyone else knows anything about this?

Cobos

[AGR]

Valmet (http://www.valmet-automotive.com/automotive/cms.nsf) must be capable of operating a flexible assembly operation where they can assemble different vehicles for different customers from the same facilities.

[Cobos]

There's no doubt there, the question I'm asking is in regard to space on that flexible production line. If they can make 10 cars a day and 8 of them are Porsches until 2011, then only 2 of them can be Karmas.

Cobos

[graham]

Fisker just raised more money to produce the Karma. They are still saying Q4 2009 for delivery, which seems very aggressive to me, but should be great for the market if they can hit it.
Plug-in maker Fisker Auto recharges with hefty funding | Green Tech - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10036121-54.html)

Fisker Automotive on Tuesday said it raised $65 million to build the Fisker Karma, a planned $80,000 plug-in hybrid sports car.
The series C funding, first reported earlier in May, was led by Qatar Investment Authority (QIA) and joined by existing investors, investors Palo Alto Investors and Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. The company had previously raised $25 million, CEO Henrik Fisker said in May.

The Fisker Karma sports sedan, a plug-in hybrid with a 50-mile range on battery alone.
(Credit: Fisker Automotive)
The company expects to start delivering the four-door Fisker Karma in the fourth quarter next year, with planned production of 15,000 units a year.

[graham]

Fisker Karma to use GM's 2.0-liter turbo'd four - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/11/21/fisker-karma-to-use-gms-2-0-liter-turbod-four/)

Those who were miffed at General Motors for eschewing its initial plans to launch the Chevy Volt with a small 1.0L turbocharged three cylinder engine are probably not going to like this piece of news, but Fisker Automotive has finally settled on an internal combustion engine to recharge the Karma's on-board lithium ion batteries. It's a big one, with a full 2.0-liters of displacement and direct injection, oh... and a turbocharger for good measure. While it is definitely debatable whether or not the Karma really needs 260 horses and an equal torque figure to spin its generator (which we'll leave up to you in the comments... don't let us down), it's not really as bad as it may seem.

The Ecotec line of engines from GM are solid pieces of machinery, and the more power that the engine and generator are sending to the battery pack, the quicker the whole shebang will be recharged. It's an aluminum engine too, so the weight isn't as bad as it could have been, and it's fairly fuel efficient with its direct injection as well. So, while we'd love to see the Karma get an exotic, lightweight powerplant, the 2.0L DI Ecotec and its 260 horsepower is, in all actuality, a pretty efficient package when one considers its hefty power-to-weight ratio. Discuss.

[TEG]

The Karma is likely to be a rather heavy vehicle. Going uphill at high speeds for a while (say driving from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe) you are likely to need a lot of gas engine horsepower to keep from running the batteries all the way down. If they do it like the Volt where it runs mainly off of batteries for the first 40 miles, then you will really want some HP from the gas motor if you are trying to motor on just on gasoline power alone after the batteries are drained.

[vfx]

Yes please to the bailout money.

CBS news last night:
'Karma' For Plug-In Hybrid Video - CBSNews.com (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4631319n)

[DDB]

Yes please to the bailout money.

CBS news last night:
'Karma' For Plug-In Hybrid Video - CBSNews.com (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4631319n)


There were some new bits in that clip. I didn't realize they had their own Bluestar-type plan with a $40,000 model planned (no doubt to compete with the Volt).

[dpeilow]

Perhaps that plan has just emerged to make them a credible recipient of the bailout money.

[graham]

Perhaps I just misinterpreted the statement, but it sounded to me like a low cost version of the Karma, not an entirely new car design like the Bluestar.

[doug]

Fisker previews production Karma plug-in hybrid ahead of Detroit - [2009 Fisker Karma] - MotorAuthority - Car news, reviews, spy shots (http://www.motorauthority.com/fisker-confirms-detroit-debut-for-production-karma-plug-in-hybrid.html)

http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/2/0/2009_fisker_karma_production_spec_main630-1202-636x360.jpg

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/fisker-preps-its-production-car-5289.html

[Kevin Harney]

That is a really hot looking car (sans the grill) and if it makes it to market before the Model S I would probably buy it any way. Model S might be cheaper. All I have to say is you better get that Model S prototype OUT !!!! They are losing all of their momentum and stalling out. I would much rather have an all electric car like Model S but I will take what I can get :(

[vfx]

sweeeeet:biggrin:

Too bad about the price increase.

Now we have to look at what rebates apply to it.

[doug]

I'm guessing they've toned down the grill as part of the redesign for production and will reveal that new look in Detroit (hence, the rear shot tease).

[Kevin Harney]

they have released sneak peaks of the whole car. Grill changed some but is still just plain ugly. I will see if I can find the link ... pretty sure I actually saw it here ...

Doug,
It was your link above that I saw. Are those OLD sneak peeks or new ones ? :rolleyes:

What are those black diamond shaped things on the bumper ?

[doug]

Doug,
It was your link above that I saw. Are those OLD sneak peeks or new ones ? :rolleyes:
New, AFAIK. I don't follow Fisker that closely. If you have photos of the production version, post them.

[Kevin Harney]

I was looking at the photos at the bottom of your link.

[doug]

I was looking at the photos at the bottom of your link.
Sorry, I might have misread your question. The pictures of the blue car are old, as most here should know. The photo I embedded is new (as far as I know).



.

[vfx]

I'm guessing they've toned down the grill as part of the redesign for production and will reveal that new look in Detroit (hence, the rear shot tease).

I was going to say the same thing. A back end photo says change on the front end.

One of the sites says the "exhaust" pipes are for heat from motor cooling.
I would remind though that it still has a combustion engine.

[just-an-allusion]

I was going to say the same thing. A back end photo says change on the front end.

One of the sites says the "exhaust" pipes are for heat from motor cooling.
I would remind though that it still has a combustion engine.


I picked this up from Jalopnik:


Fisker Karma Gets Approval To Go Finnish (http://jalopnik.com/398540/fisker-karma-gets-approval-to-go-finnish)

By Ben Wojdyla (http://jalopnik.com/people/BenWojdyla/posts/), 9:20 AM (http://jalopnik.com/398540/fisker-karma-gets-finnish-accent-from-valmet-automotive) on Tue Jul 15 2008, 1,383 views
http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/05/Fisker-Karma.jpgValmet Automotive, based in Finland, has signed a memorandum of understanding with Fisker Automotive to build the Fisker Karma (http://jalopnik.com/344419/detroit-auto-show-fisker-karma-luxury-hybrid-only-80000). With this announcement, we also get further details surrounding the hybrid luxury sports car: According to Valmet CEO, Ilpo Korhonen, the Karma, which we have seen testing before (http://jalopnik.com/389208/fisker-karma-hybrid-testing-in-southern-california), will be capable of traveling 50 MPH before the engine kicks in to charge the batteries. It has a maximum all-electric range of 62 miles, and the starting price tag for the US may be bumped up an extra five grand to $85,000.

Production is to start next year with exports bound for the USA, and sales in Europe will begin the year after. Maximum volume is targeted at 15,000 cars a year, which means demand from smug, wealthy motorists will be happily met. Yep, 2010 is shaping up to be one hell of a fuel-mileage battle royale.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/05/Fisker-Karma.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jalopnik.com/398540/fisker-karma-gets-finnish-accent-from-valmet-automotive&usg=__4VUX0UNcivXg7uA-_a4cp7h3JmY=&h=351&w=600&sz=30&hl=en&start=18&um=1&tbnid=uT2PtAuJH2AjYM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3DFisker%2BKarma%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

It appears that they've restructured the grill to make it more so defined and not so much like a big, s#%t eating grin.

[doug]

I was going to say the same thing. A back end photo says change on the front end.

One of the sites says the "exhaust" pipes are for heat from motor cooling.
I would remind though that it still has a combustion engine.

Detroit Preview: Fisker Karma coming in production form - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/02/detroit-preview-fisker-karma-coming-in-production-form/)

From the press release:


The production model to be featured at the 2009 NAIAS will include an upper grill that is graphically enhanced, being slightly larger towards the outer corners. The lower air intake has been enlarged to allow for more airflow and underneath the rear bumper, an aerodynamic diffuser includes the integration of a cooling cover for the electric drivetrain.

To optimize cooling and aerodynamics, the exhaust pipe from the ICE engine is routed directly out behind the front wheels.

[dpeilow]

Fisker Reveals Production Version of Luxury Electric Car : Gas 2.0 (http://gas2.org/2008/12/02/fisker-reveals-production-version-of-luxury-electric-car/)

[stopcrazypp]

Fisker Reveals Production Version of Luxury Electric Car : Gas 2.0 (http://gas2.org/2008/12/02/fisker-reveals-production-version-of-luxury-electric-car/)

Seems like it's a parallel hybrid. I was under the impression it was serial. The relatively strong engine/generator makes more sense I suppose.

[TEG]

http://gas2.org/files/2008/12/2009_fisker_karma_side.jpg
http://gas2.org/files/2008/12/2009_fisker_karma_back.jpg

[TEG]

Inevitable comparison:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/12/2009-Fisker-Karma.jpg
http://images.businessweek.com/mz/08/44/popup_0844_mz_tesla2.jpg

[stopcrazypp]

Inevitable comparison:

Around now would be a good time for Tesla to release a look at the Model S.
I can see a lot of potential Model S buyers who are probably looking at the Karma right now.

[doug]

I can see a lot of potential Model S buyers who are probably looking at the Karma right now.That's a real problem. Additionally, the Karma will likely beat the Model S to market by over a year.

[DDB]

IMO comparing the model S to the Karma is still apples to oranges. model S is a BEV, and allegedly much cheaper. Moreover, by the time it comes out, Tesla will have a reputation for quality or junk... I'd imagine some visitors to this site will have posted their actual experiences [I hope]. But I am very excited to see model S...we're still years away from production.

[Kevin Harney]

TM can not afford to not debut the Model S at the Detroit Auto Show. It needs to show they are in the same league or better than Fisker. They have said the design is done so show me the money ...personally I believe that it is NOT done.

[graham]

TM can not afford to not debut the Model S at the Detroit Auto Show.

I am not sure I agree (as much as I do want to see the Model S). The company took a lot of heat for showing the Roadster early, and then having delays getting it to market (meanwhile the fall of the dollar and other things continued to push up the price)

They may be trying to rectify this by waiting until they have their financing more securely in place to produce the Model S before showing it. It would be more bad PR for Tesla to show off a car, and then delay bringing it out another year because they didn't have the money to produce it. The only reason to show it off before they have the finances in place to make it would be if they think they can get more financing by showing it to the public.

There have been published articles that claim they plan to reveal the Model S in Geneva (which I think is in March).

[dpeilow]

Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Karma Gets A Starting Price Of $87,900, We Get First Front Shot Of Tesla-Killer (http://jalopnik.com/5101490/fisker-karma-gets-a-starting-price-of-87900-we-get-first-front-shot-of-tesla+killer?skyline=true&s=i)


The Karma will get not one, but two electric motors as part of its "Q-drive" powertain system, and they augment a 265 HP GM Ecotec turbocharged four cylinder for a grand total of 408 HP and 959 lb-ft of torque. In full sport mode that car will scoot from zero to 60 MPH in only 5.8 seconds, top speed is pegged at 125 MPH. Switch it down to miser mode and you can go 50 miles in all electric mode, drawing power from the lithium-ion battery pack.

I love this in the comments...


I dig the mustache grille. It's very "Frankly, my dear, I don't give air dam"

http://www.franklymydear.com/history/pix/lp-clark.jpg



I also have to say I agree with some of the commenters that with figures like that, it should easily be a lot quicker to 60 than 5.8 seconds. Either that or it is *very* heavy.

[vfx]

That nose looks much better, almost Austin Martin-like.

The wife has had her car in the shop a lot lately and warranty just expired. With the latest Karma price increase and the car a year away (don't know if she has a production #) she is looking elsewhere. She would also consider a Model S but that's even further away.

She is currently looking at used Lexus Hybrids.

[TEG]

That nose looks much better, almost Austin Martin-like.


Did you mean Aston Martin (http://www.astonmartin.com/), or Austin Powers? :tongue:

http://www.411toys.com/moviecars/shagmobile.jpg

[doug]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/12/2009-Fisker-Karma-Front-Sombrero2.jpg

[vfx]

Did you mean Aston Martin (http://www.astonmartin.com/), or Austin Powers?

More like http://www.austinpowers4trailer.com/images/Austin%20Powers%20shagadelic.jpghttp://i.cnn.net/money/galleries/2007/biz2/0706/gallery.peoplewhomatter.biz2/images/eberhard_martin.jpg

[vfx]

Evolution
http://image.automobilemag.com/f/features/awards/7373464+w440/0711_07_z+2008_aston_martin_v8_vantage+front_three_quarter.jpghttp://auto.pege.org/2008-genf/fisker-karma.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/supertouchblog/Picture-1-5.jpg
http://sandnsurf.medbrains.net/files/2008/11/tt-teeth.jpg

[doug]

Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing - Fisker Reveals The Production Karma | Autopia from Wired.com (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/12/aint-nothing-li.html)

http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/12/03/karma_production_03_2.jpg

[dpeilow]

Wired thinks it is a series hybrid (not parallel as mentioned above) and at 4650 pounds, it is indeed heavy. A 22.6kWh battery too.

[vfx]

Check thank link URL, Doug!

Chick that sentence TEG!

[dpeilow]

Evolution


Don't forget this, already hints of the long, flat shape even here.

http://www.ssip.net/upload/bmw-z8-front-1_116.jpg

[just-an-allusion]

Unfortunately, all of this mocking of Fisker's Karma is not going to amount to much if the guys at Tesla don't get their collective 5h!t together and start mass producing a marketable product.

It's market saturation that does more for an emerging technology/product to secure public acceptance and encourage desire for it, not to mention increasing demand for the improvement for said technology, as well as push sales demands.

Tesla is and has been at the cusp of the EV movement...it would be a shame if they let their edge dull due to personality conflicts/differing business ideologies...oh, wait a second....

[TEG]

The various articles do seem a little jumbled as to the actual specs.
My guess is that it has one eMotor for each rear wheel and the gas engine up front just turns a generator (series hybrid).

[DDB]

Unfortunately, all of this mocking of Fisker's Karma is not going to amount to much if the guys at Tesla don't get their collective 5h!t together and start mass producing a marketable product.

It's market saturation that does more for an emerging technology/product to secure public acceptance and encourage desire for it, not to mention increasing demand for the improvement for said technology, as well as push sales demands.

Tesla is and has been at the cusp of the EV movement...it would be a shame if they let their edge dull due to personality conflicts/differing business ideologies...oh, wait a second....

Don't put too much stock in Tesla. Yep, they have the halo car right now...but I'd be Fisker has quite a few reservations. Besides, GM's Volt is not far off. It does not look as cool as the Karma, but it's a, well, version of it which should come out in enough volume to make a dent.

[graham]

Honestly, I think there is enough demand that Tesla, Fisker and GM (and Aptera... and Miles... and Zenn) can all be successful in this space without there having to be a "one-true winner". As long as they all can get/keep their act together and come out with compelling products at a competitive price.

[Cobos]

I've got a feeling there's quite a bit of pent-up demand for a practical luxury BEV and a cheap practical BEV. The first bigger players to satisfy that will get most of the early adopters I think. And as cars are usually not something regular people BUY very often that might be important for who succeds. If the Karma really is a paralell hybrid (which I find likely with a 250hp engine) I at least loose all interest. Then it's just a Lexus hybrid in a sedan package. I.e. big luxury cars with fuel consumption like one class lower kind of car.

Cobos

[graham]

The thing that I have seen mentioned about the Karma is that it has a bunch of different driving "modes". So even if it can be a parallel hybrid you can probably set it to a mode that makes it essentially a serial. It still has a big advantage over a Lexus in that it has a plug.

[TEG]

One article said the gas motor kicks in after 50miles, and another said after 50mph... Which is it...? If 50 miles then it seems to be a serial hybrid. If 50mph then a parallel hybrid... I am still guessing series hybrid and that it can reach top speed on eMotor power alone.

[dpeilow]

Fisker Automotive: Environmentally friendly, premium cars featuring plug-in hybrid technology >> Technology (http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/technology/)


Fisker Automotive is taking a novel approach to merging beauty and style with an environmental conscience. The car features cutting-edge plug-in hybrid technology, penned as Q DRIVE, developed by Quantum Technologies exclusively for Fisker Automotive. The Karma's Q DRIVE configuration consists of a small gasoline engine that turns the generator, which charges the lithium ion battery pack, powering the electric motor and turning the rear wheels.

This proprietary design allows consumers' to drive the car emission free for up to 50 miles (80km) a day provided the car is charged every evening.

[TEG]

Here were some with what I think may be wrong info:

2010 Fisker Karma: Fisker Karma Gets Approval To Go Finnish (http://jalopnik.com/398540/fisker-karma-gets-approval-to-go-finnish)

...capable of traveling 50 MPH before the engine kicks in to charge the batteries...Sympatico / MSN Autos (EN): Good Karma: Fisker picks GM Turbo engine to power its luxury plug-in hybrid (http://blogs.carpoint.ca/2008/11/good-karma-fisk.html)

...Because the Karma is a plug-in parallel hybrid... (but then goes on to describe it like a series hybrid...)

Perhaps this statement (http://www.leftlanenews.com/fisker-karma.html) is what has confused some journalists:

...An optional sport mode allows the gas engine and electric motors to operate at the same time, increasing performance...To me that means that the battery pack can't deliver enough current to offer full eMotor power so they use the generator and battery pack at the same time (in sport mode) to give full current to the eMotors. I suppose that mode of operation would confuse some people's idea of the distinction between series and parallel hybrid. Traditionally a Prius style Parallel hybrid can use the eMotor for power at the same time as the gas motor, but a big detail is that the gas motor can be mechanically connected to the drivetrain.
Q: If the gas engine is only ever connected to the generator and there is no mechanical connection to the drivetrain does that make it (by definition) a series hybrid even if the eMotor power may come from both batteries and generator at the same time?
Q: Are they trying to say that a true series hybrid would only ever run the gas generator when the car wasn't moving?

[TEG]

A bit more digging does indeed suggest that the Karma can't provide full eMotor performance from the battery pack alone. It provides maybe 2/3 of full capability on battery alone, but needs to fire up the ICE generator at the same time if you want to get full eMotor power. I still think it is technically a series hybrid, not parallel.

[dpeilow]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=57&t=617481&nmt=RE:%20Fisker%20Karma


After seeing the front, I thought "Ding Dong"...

http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/f5fd6e35d598f1343ed6a961c04f659ab033d4ab_m.jpg

Leslie Phillips - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Phillips)

[vfx]

This was also posted (by Traffman). Nice find:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h164/traffman/FindingNemoPoster.jpg
http://auto.pege.org/2008-genf/fisker-karma.jpg
And this was mentioned by H22K:
http://shinymedia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/31/gooch_pringles.jpg

Thanks Dpeilow. Reading all the comments it look s like you have a naysayer that needs skoolin'.

[dpeilow]

Thanks - now skooled.

[vfx]

Thanks - now skooled.

kool!













.

[just-an-allusion]

Don't put too much stock in Tesla. Yep, they have the halo car right now...but I'd be Fisker has quite a few reservations. Besides, GM's Volt is not far off. It does not look as cool as the Karma, but it's a, well, version of it which should come out in enough volume to make a dent.

Cue in for next on-site poll: "Has Tesla dropped the ball?"

[vfx]

Fisker's reservations are "only" a grand. Easy To rack them up that way. My wife has one but with the new price jump we are probably pulling out (Just waiting for 1. to see if there will be any further EV rebates coming and 2. her current ride to go teets-up.)

[graham]

Will the Karma be eligible for the full $7500 Federal rebate? If so, the price jump is very small.

I wonder how much the Model S will end up competing with the Karma?

[vfx]

Will the Karma be eligible for the full $7500 Federal rebate?

It should. GM basically crafted the rebate for the Volt.

[DDB]

Fisker's reservations are "only" a grand. Easy To rack them up that way. My wife has one but with the new price jump we are probably pulling out (Just waiting for 1. to see if there will be any further EV rebates coming and 2. her current ride to go teets-up.)

You may want to wait until last minute to pull out--there will be people looking to buy your place in line just like we've seen with the Roadster. But let's hope you have some options when the time comes.

[just-an-allusion]

Supposition and conjecture can only get you so far, then you have to go to the source:

Fisker Automotive: Environmentally friendly, premium cars featuring plug-in hybrid technology (http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/)

Niiiiice website BTW, background mood music and all.

[graham]

Bold Prediction: Venture Capitalist: Big 3 Should Turn To Silicon Valley - Tech Check with Jim Goldman - CNBC.com (http://www.cnbc.com/id/28369443)


Lane wants more a partnership between Detroit and Silicon Valley; wanting the Big 3 to outsource their innovation to this far more entrepreneurial region. His approach makes a lot of sense.

"I have one company that's going to be building 500,000 vehicles by Americans, sold to America, and I can do that for $200 million or $300 million. I don't need a billion dollars. Fisker will deliver and be cash-flow profitable on a couple of hundred million dollars. It doesn't need $25 billion," Lane tells me.

[just-an-allusion]

Honestly, I think there is enough demand that Tesla, Fisker and GM (and Aptera... and Miles... and Zenn) can all be successful in this space without there having to be a "one-true winner". As long as they all can get/keep their act together and come out with compelling products at a competitive price.
I agree with your review of the ever emerging EV market, finding it somewhat intuitive, as diversity is key to market viability and integration due to the diversity of personalities, appeals, tastes & likes, i.e., something for everyone, as all that we're really seeing here is the development of the same sentiments/preferences for vehicle/marque loyalty as is currently common with the ICE mindset, which is promising as it is indicative of widespread acceptance and desire for implementation of EV conversion from that of the long antiquated ICE method of vehicular powering...very promising indeed.

[doug]

Fisker set to debut new Karma S "Sunset" concept in Detroit - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/30/fisker-set-to-debut-new-sunset-concept-in-detroit/)

Fisker Sunset - Jalopnik (http://jalopnik.com/5121230/fisker-sunset-concept-heading-to-detroit)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/12/fiskersunsetconcepttease.jpg

It's called the Karma S.

[TEG]

Sure looks like a convertible. Interesting development.
But shouldn't they focus on getting their first model underway before announcing more variations?

[Cobos]

Yes I also read this like, we've got a slight delay, but to take your mind off that we've got this wonderful new body style that you wont be able to buy either...

Cobos

[graham]

Assuming that the "Karma S" is a convertible... it is interesting that the "S" means the exact opposite for Tesla as it does for Fisker.

[thejump]

Fisker is on a tear!! Last year they debuted the Karma and now they're unveiling the Karma Convertible - 2 cars within a years time!!

Where is any evidence of Tesla's Models S? Official sketches? Concept clay? Nothing....

Fisker is eating their lunch

[graham]

Well, remember Tesla has delivered a tastefully edited teaser picture of a future car design too! And did it months before Fisker!

It certainly would be nice to see the full Model S design (and to have reasonable assurances that it will be produced relatively soon) - but considering that Fisker has delivered 0 Karmas while Roadsters are currently being shipped it is too early to declare that Fisker is eating Teslas lunch... Pre-breakfast snack perhaps. There is a lot of food left in the day.

[stopcrazypp]

Pre-breakfast snack perhaps. There is a lot of food left in the day.

I love how people in the automotive blogosphere are saying "eat this, Tesla" at every news of Fisker. Unveiling a new model isn't exactly anything too major. Tesla had their little teaser a while back.

It is kind of interesting how Fisker is approaching this the exact opposite of Tesla. Unveil sedan first, then convertible.

I still want to see an actual review of a production Karma before getting too excited about Fisker.

[Joseph]

It's interesting how Fisker is insisting on calling it the Karma S. Exactly what Tesla is calling Whitestar...

[just-an-allusion]

It's interesting how Fisker is insisting on calling it the Karma S. Exactly what Tesla is calling Whitestar...

And yet they still contend that there were no "Intellectual Property" infringements....

[graham]

That's it! They stole the valuable "S" technology!

ETA: Cue the "Watch the 'S' Car Go" snail jokes...

[mt2]

Fisker is on a tear!! Last year they debuted the Karma and now they're unveiling the Karma Convertible - 2 cars within a years time!!

Where is any evidence of Tesla's Models S? Official sketches? Concept clay? Nothing....

Fisker is eating their lunch
Yes, but Chrysler introduced three concept electric vehicles that aren't in production yet. So, as far as vehicles you can't see on a showroom floor anywhere go, I'd say Fisker is behind the curve.

[domenick]

It's interesting how Fisker is insisting on calling it the Karma S. Exactly what Tesla is calling Whitestar...

Fisker is showing himself to be a real s-hole.

Seriously though, it seems like they are going out of their way to be antagonistic. There are lots of other possible alphanumeric combinations currently not being used to denote a model of electric automobile. Perhaps e42 (or some such) might be more connotative than simply the letter "S". I realize that "S" is a popular choice (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/22/zero-motorcycles-takin-it-to-the-streets-with-new-zero-s/) for EV makers but there are other letters and numbers out there in need of a good home.

[graham]

'S' is the new 'E'

[just-an-allusion]

That's it! They stole the valuable "S" technology!

ETA: Cue the "Watch the 'S' Car Go" snail jokes...
Ha-ha...likely more so body styling, technology, and (of course) "name", but let's also not forget the idea/concept of producing an E-powered vehicle.

Yes, I think that it's obvious that Fisker annoys me.

[doug]

A guess at the Karma S:

Rendered For Your Pleasure: Fisker Karma S Sunset Concept (http://jalopnik.com/5121959/fisker-karma-s-sunset-concept)

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/2010_Fisker_Karma_S_title.jpg

KORSdesign: Fisker Karma S Sunset Concept (http://www.korsdesign.com/2009/01/2010-fisker-karma-s-sunset.html)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/3171250500_43737c8cb7_m.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/3171250500_67f3fe73de_o.jpg)

[doug]

Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Karma S Sunset Concept Spied On Detroit Auto Show Floor - Jalopnik (http://jalopnik.com/5128354/fisker-karma-s-sunset-concept-spied-on-detroit-auto-show-floor)

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/fisker-karma-s-concept-floo.jpg

[doug]

Detroit 2009: Fisker Karma S hardtop convertible unleashed - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/12/detroit-2009-fisker-karma-s-hardtop-convertible-unleashed/)

Power retractable hard top is nice.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/01/fisker-karma-s-450.jpg

[TEG]

Fisker Karma S Concept Hardtop Covertible Coupe Hits Detroit | Automotive News Blog - Wide Open Throttle (http://wot.motortrend.com/6438336/auto-shows/fisker-karma-s-concept-hardtop-covertible-coupe-hits-detroit/index.html)

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3192120268_786f0a1823_o.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3192120060_ea8e966159_o.jpg http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-shows/fisker-karma-s-concept-hardtop-covertible-coupe-hits-detroit/15577612+w315+cr1+re0+ar1/fisker-karma-s-concept.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3191273981_62b2b01991_o.jpg

[Kevin Harney]

That is what I wanted for the Model S. I LOVE it but wish it was a 4 door. If it goes into production it will be a very hard choice for me between the 2.

[doug]

Fisker Karma S Sunset: World's First Hybrid Convertible - Jalopnik (http://jalopnik.com/5129546/fisker-karma-s-sunset-worlds-first-hybrid-convertible)

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3191245787_da5d25d5dc_o.jpg
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/Fisker_Karma_S.JPG
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3191274063_5d189deb25_o.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3192174704_c197c58e23_o.jpg

[Tin-Chicken]

Not loving the furry steering wheel or carpeted dashboard. :eek:

TC.

[donauker]

Pre-Order price increase for Karma, also now being accepted for Karma S

Fisker Karma Pre-Order (http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/pages/preorder)


We are accepting preorders for our Fisker four-door plug-in hybrid sports sedan - the FISKER KARMA to be delivered in 2010. All orders received from mid-January onwards will be delivered in the second half of 2010. Effective Jan. 1 the deposit amount is $5,000.


At this point in time we are also accepting deposits for our Fisker convertible – the FISKER KARMA S. The deposit amount is $25,000

[dpeilow]

Let's not forget the hardtop version...

Detroit 2009: production Fisker Karma - and Karma S preview - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/12/detroit-2009-production-fisker-karma-and-karma-s-preview/)


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/01/production-karma-naias-250.jpg

[doug]

Not loving the furry steering wheel or carpeted dashboard. :eek:

TC.


Here's a not so great pic of the production intent standard Karma interior. Much more leathery.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3312/3189655777_30c115ecea.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/3189655777/sizes/l/)

Flickr: Fisker Automotive's Photostream (http://flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/)

[Tin-Chicken]

The dash looks like it is covered with a giant leather bean bag. Not a good look ...


Here's a not so great pic of the production intent standard Karma interior. Much more leathery.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3312/3189655777_30c115ecea.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/3189655777/sizes/l/)

Flickr: Fisker Automotive's Photostream (http://flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/)

[doug]

Here's a vid of the Karma S reveal and the PRHT in action.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLquMdIc-Qo

Not quite as fast or as smooth as some other systems I've seen, but at least it looks like it works.

[SByer]

Wow, eew. That's a pretty nasty looking interior. Between that and the goofy front grill, well...

[TEG]

Agreed. That interior is far from the high tech mockup prototype interior they first showed. Also the hood is very long, and the grill too silly. Karma is not for me.

[doug]

The dash looks like it is covered with a giant leather bean bag. Not a good look ...
Yeah, I'm not particularly liking it either.

[stopcrazypp]

The dash looks like it is covered with a giant leather bean bag. Not a good look ...
From press release:


Karma buyers will choose from three trim levels: EcoBase™, EcoSport™ and EcoChic™. The most advanced sustainable material series, EcoChic™, is based on an animal-free approach that still offers a luxurious environment. Leather is replaced by 100% Bamboo Viscose, a soft hand textile, while EcoGlass™ trim frames authentic fossilized leaves. Karma's EcoSport™ series incorporates hand-wrapped premium leather using a 100% sustainable manufacturing strategy, which minimizes the number of hides required and highlights natural markings.

So there's an option for no leather, but I think it's mostly the color that makes it look gaudy.

[DisneylandIsHome]

Hopefully the Alfred E. Neuman grin grill will be gone before production. The cars are beautiful until you get around to the front. Then they just look silly.

[graham]

Having the convertible be a hard top is very nice. The interior isn't my favorite, but the car is shaping up pretty well overall. Have they announced the price of the "S" yet?

[doug]

Gorgeous Convertible Improves Fisker's Plug-In Karma | Autopia from Wired.com (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/01/a-convertible-i.html)

http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2009/01/12/fisker_karma_s_revealed.jpg

Fisker Automotive has unveiled the production version of its super-luxe Karma plug-in hybrid, and as gorgeous as it is, it's nothing compared to the convertible parked next to it.

...

Under the skin, the two cars use the same gas-electric drivetrain, which Fisker calls Q-Drive, developed with help from Quantum Technologies. The Karma will work much like the Chevrolet Volt (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/09/the-volt-isnt-a.html), delivering 50 miles of all-electric range before the 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine kicks in to drive a generator that will recharge the 22.6-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery and provide juice to keep the car moving.

Beneath the car's aluminum-and-composite body lies an aluminum spaceframe chassis that cradles two electric motors that together produce 300 kW (408 horsepower) and a stunning 959 foot-pounds of torque. Fisker claims the sedan, which weighs 4,650 pounds, will do zero to 60 in 5.8 seconds. Top speed is limited to 125 mph.

...

Although the Karma's electric drivetrain is a proprietary system designed in conjunction with Quantum Technologies, the engine, air-conditioning system, steering column and other "bits and baubles" were pulled from the GM parts bin (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/11/fiskers-plug-in.html), says Fisker spokesman Russell Datz.

...

Though Datz' couldn't confirm it, one source tells us Fisker Automotive is "flush with cash," and another says it paid at least one supplier in cash, bumping its job to the top of the supplier's to-do list, because most automakers take months to pay their bills.

Still, Fisker still has to get its car certified by the feds — an arduous task that some industry insiders doubt it will complete before the end of the year, particularly since we haven't seen running cars. It also has to establish a dealer network, but Fisker says 40 dealers will be up-and-running by year's end. Some seasoned industry watchers say Fisker undoubtedly will get his cars built, but they aren't betting he'll do it by the end of the year.

Fisker says he's received orders for 1,300 vehicles, and he tells The New York Times (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/fisker-karma-s-a-challenge-for-the-tesla-roadster/) his company would turn a profit if it sold 4,000 cars annually. The goal, he says, is to sell 15,000 worldwide each year.
http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2009/01/12/fisker_karma_reveal.jpg
http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2009/01/12/fisker_karma_production_03_sized_2.jpg

[Joseph]

The interior doesn't look like it's up to production quality. It seems like they're still very much in "concept" mode. It takes a loooong time to make a car.

[vfx]

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3191328739_19d32e4e4f_o.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3191328781_11cae820f1_o.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3192174668_7ed7c91656_o.jpg

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3192174704_c197c58e23_o.jpg

[SByer]

Ok, so maybe it isn't just the colors, and the interior just looks stupid...

[graham]

This article contains a lot of details I had not seen before:

Marty Padgett's blog: Karma S Concept and 2010 Fisker Karma - The Car Connection (http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1016817_karma-s-concept-and-2010-fisker-karma)

I had not heard of the three models of the Karma before:

Three models are available: Eco Standard, Eco Sport, and Eco Chic, with the latter being the most expensive and offering a completely animal-free interior.

Some of last years range claims have significantly gone down:

the range of up to 620 miles of continuous driving that was promised last year in the concept stage has now become about 300 miles from gasoline and electric, starting with a full charge and a full tank.

Here is more information which has lead to the confusion over if it is a Series or Parallel. Seems like it is Series, but without recharge capability from the engine (which I think they are also rumoring as behavior for the Volt):

the Fisker is propelled only by an electric motor system, with the gasoline engine set to kick on when the battery's juice is spent. At that time the Ecotec will fire itself up and run at whatever speed is more efficient to provide power directly to the electrics. In another element that's changed since last year, the gas engine won't directly recharge the battery, we're told; the only way the battery actively recoups energy, other than being plugged in, is through regenerative braking

Pricing info for the breakdown of the models (still nothing on the Karma S):

The Karma is set to sell for $87,900, but after a $7,500 federal tax credit it will qualify for, the price will only be $80,400—also delivering on last year's promise of the cost being about $80,000. That’s for the Eco Standard. The Eco Sport will list at $94,000 and the Eco Chic at $106,000

They are still claiming shipments in late 2009.

[donauker]

Based on the the Fisker Site (http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/pages/karma/design)

The three models would appear to basically be three different levels of interior finish.


The Karma’s “EcoSport” series incorporates hand-wrapped premium leather from a partner with a 100% sustainable manufacturing strategy that includes “Happy Cow” policies – utilizing over 85% of each hide. Design intent is to preserve the natural look and feel of the leather, while highlighting the uniqueness and “natural markings” of each individual hide.



Our most advanced sustainable material series, “EcoChic,” is based on a completely animal-free approach that offers the most luxurious automotive environment. This series uses a soft hand textile composed of 100% Bamboo Viscose and frames authentic fossil leaves inside the EcoGlass.

[graham]

The three models would appear to basically be three different levels of interior finish.

Oh yes! Sorry, the original article I was quoting did make that clear, but I did a lousy job of reflecting that in my quotes.

[no96]

Under the skin, the two cars use the same gas-electric drivetrain, which Fisker calls Q-Drive, developed with help from Quantum Technologies. The Karma will work much like the Chevrolet Volt, delivering 50 miles of all-electric range before the 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine kicks in to drive a generator that will recharge the 22.6-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery and provide juice to keep the car moving.

Beneath the car's aluminum-and-composite body lies an aluminum spaceframe chassis that cradles two electric motors that together produce 300 kW (408 horsepower) and a stunning 959 foot-pounds of torque. Fisker claims the sedan, which weighs 4,650 pounds, will do zero to 60 in 5.8 seconds. Top speed is limited to 125 mph.

So if the electric motors are 408 horsepower then, if the battery is depleted, does that mean when
'the 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine kicks in ' it prroduces 408 horsepower + generator loss?
Or, probably more likely, is there some load averaging assumed, but then what is the assumption ?
I guess i'm just wondering what the performance numbers are like when you are using the gas engine.
On a related note , the '300 mile range' is a useless number by itself, probably just used to distinguish
the car from a BEV, what you normally care about on a gas car (which you could argue this is after
50 miles) is the mpg, is that mentioned anywhere?

[TEG]

Well the gas engine is supposedly 260hp max, so in cases where the battery is fully depleted, the dual 200hp (400hp+ total) eMotors could probably only muster somewhat less than 260hp, so max performance isn't likely always available.

Since I don't understand exactly how their technology will work, I don't want to speculate too much, but it sounds like max performance is only available at times when the battery pack is relatively full, and the gas engine is also running the generator (using power from both in "sport mode").

I don't know what performance would be like with a full battery pack, and gas engine off, nor what performance would be like with gas engine on and an empty battery pack.

At least it never has to shift. And it can pull away from stops using the 0rpm torque advantage of powerful electric motors.

----


I assume that nothing is driving the front wheels, and the RWD is one eMotor per rear wheel. (Yet to be seen if this will provide good handling in all conditions). Are the eMotors each connected just to one wheel, or are they linked together and use a differential? Still many unanswered questions.

[Tim]

So, I looked up this Quantum Technologies outfit, and they don't look that impressive or a like a serious engineering outfit. All this Q-drive and happy cow mumbojumbo being tossed around is getting a bit ridiculous. These guys seem to be all hat and no cattle. They must have the same PR firm as Zap.

[donauker]

I assume that nothing is driving the front wheels, and the RWD is one eMotor per rear wheel. (Yet to be seen if this will provide good handling in all conditions). Are the eMotors each connected just to one wheel, or are they linked together and use a differential? Still many unanswered questions.

Reading the following from the Fisker Site my personal guess is that they will have 2 electric motors tied to input of a rear axle differential.


The power dense dual motor traction drive is capable of delivering a peak output mechanical power of 300 kW (403 hp) and a peak torque of 1300 Nm (959 Ft-lb) to the input of the differential.

[stopcrazypp]

I'm wondering how far along they are in safety testing. They unveiled the production design in December, so they have roughly a year for safety testing. Should be a tight schedule to get the car out in 2009 even if no problems come up along the way.

[TEG]

Reading from the Fisker Site my personal guess is that they will have 2 electric motors tied to input of a rear axle differential.

Yeah, I figured as much. Independent motors is simpler, lighter, and avoids the expense and size of a differential, *but* it can cause handling issues, and could also cause certification/regulatory hassles.

I figure Fisker would have gone with one bigger eMotor if it were available, but they had to resort to two smaller ones since that was all that was the best they could do to meet their performance target. (Any proven 400hp eMotors on the market yet?) I bet Tesla builds a more powerful Tesla motor for "Model S" so they don't have to resort to joining two like Fisker is doing.

[j-g]

Other than the UTube video of the zebra painted car, has anyone seen a Fisker Karma move? I think they look great standing still, but that is not the point.

[graham]

Other than the UTube video of the zebra painted car, has anyone seen a Fisker Karma move?

Not that I have seen or heard. And for a car supposedly less than a year away from production that is troubling.

[doug]

Here's video of the car moving. Sadly (suspiciously??) it has no audio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zAvyT45QYg

And here's some dude talking about the car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf4ZcGHksa8

Some other dude named Henry Something-or-other :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNqvvFFk4KU

[doug]

Fisker Practices TM | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/fisker-practices-tm/)


... One of our Best and Brightest emailed me an excerpt from the brochure today, and the bits about the interior trim, well, judge for yourself. ”Wood trim is recovered from trees found in America’s wilds: Fallen Trees™ that have succumbed to age; Rescued Trees™ burned in forest fires; and Sunken Trees™ lying on lake bottoms.” ”Recylable EcoGlass™, made from naturally occurring sand…” ”The EcoSport™ series incorporates hand-wrapped premium leather processed using a 100 percent sustainable Happy Cow™ manufacturing strategy…” If a tree falls in the forest, but no one trademarks it…From the comments:

mcs :
January 13th, 2009 at 11:37 pm (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/fisker-practices-tm/#comment-1155812)

They need to hire an IP attorney. Let’s see, EcoSport is a registered trademark of Hyundai (SN 77614128). EcoGlass is a registered trademark of 3Form Inc. EcoBase is a registered trademark of PPG for vehicle paint (SN 77603757). By the way, EcoBabble is a registered trademark of Atlas Embroidery of Coral Springs FL.
I can almost guarantee that a C&D will be in the mail from Hyundai/Lackenbach Siegel if they see that document. PPG might go after them as well.
Btw...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/nose.jpg
Now why couldn't the Karma have a front grill like this??

[TEG]

And the gasoline fuel for the engine/generator comes only from dinosaurs that died naturally in the wild...

[TEG]

Did you notice that the "Sunset Grille" (TM (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=9met32.6.2)) looks a lot different than the Karma Grille?

http://reviews.cnet.com/i/bto/20090113/Fisker01_610x406.JPG
http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/2008/01/fisker-karma.jpg

[doug]

http://auto.pege.org/2008-genf/fisker-karma.jpg


Did you notice that the "Sunset Grille" (TM (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=9met32.6.2)) looks a lot different than the Karma Grille?

Besides the mesh pattern, the production intent Karma grille is (sadly) supposed to be the same as the Karma S.

[TEG]

I wonder if Von Holzhausen had anything to do with the new "Smiley Grille" coming on 2010 Mazda 3s?
http://photos.leftlanenews.com/photos/imageresizeronfly/phpThumb.php?src=/photos/content/november2008/me-laas-mazda3-18.jpg&w=800

[vfx]

Did you notice that the "Sunset Grille"

I did right away. When I shared the Sunset reveal video with my wife last night she pointed at the grill and liked it right away.

Dropping the vertical "teeth" pattern and going black makes a huge difference as it just seems more normal (whatever that is).

[doug]

VIDEO: Henrik Fisker talks about the Karma - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/18/video-henrik-fisker-talks-about-the-karma/)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLq2keRz9l0
Have they published the MPG of the car when the batteries are depleted? Hey says that this is the production car, but have they done any crash testing yet?

[doug]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/3151413458_5c0e56c0be_b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/3151413458/sizes/o/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3386/3205102413_5f1523b408.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/frego/3205102413/sizes/o/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/3192709254_ba488abfdc.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/motorshownetwork/3192709254/sizes/o/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/3197775977_c78d484680_b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/webcompanion/3197775977/sizes/l/)

[doug]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/3205100981_3d690c6d60.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/frego/3205100981/sizes/o/in/set-72157612690781560/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3205946626_44b820ec15.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/frego/3205946626/sizes/o/)

Apparently diamond shaped thing in the rear houses is a speaker.

[TEG]

Those new Sunset wheels are slightly similar to the new Roadster wheels:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3203503938_040557cf7f_o.jpg

And the Dodge Circuit wheels:
http://media.paddocktalk.com/assets/albums/27_dodge-circuit-ev.jpg

[doug]

YouTube - 2010 Fisker Karma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu1JqSXgQS8)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu1JqSXgQS8If you go to the youtube site you can watch this video in "HD".
I don't like they way they've implemented the "shifter". Nor do I like where they've put the start button. Seems too easy to press by accident while driving.

[vfx]

7 interiors and the back diamonds under the bumpers are speakers. 2 electric motors. a 2 liter GM motor and exhaust up front -Where it can dirty the whole side of the car.

[TEG]

He says "all 4 wheels are driven - it's all wheel drive!"
How do they drive the front wheels? Maybe there is a mechanical connection from the ICE after all?!

[Kevin Harney]

2 electric motors - perhaps 1 in front and 1 in rear ?!?!?!?

[donauker]

Just another reporter with twisted facts. Unless of course he knows something about the car that Fisker doesn't. Henrik very clearly states in the video above that the engine only drives a generator and never turns the wheels also that the two electric motors are in the rear attached to a differential and applying 400 hp to the rear wheels.

[donauker]

2 electric motors - perhaps 1 in front and 1 in rear ?!?!?!?

Actually from the mirror under the Karma in the picture above it looks like one on the front of the rear differential and the other on the back of it.

[doug]

Looks like the Fisker charge port matches what Coulomb Technologies plans to offer.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3386/3205102413_55dcc85ee5_m.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/frego/3205102413/sizes/o/) http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/12/pc031944_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/edta-2008-chargepoint-station/1203535/)

[TEG]

It seems clear that there are two big eMotors straddling the rear differential, but if the cars.com guys is right there is a reverse driveshaft (back to front) also driving the front wheels. I am dubious and doubt it. I think the "transmission tunnel" is filled with batteries, not a driveshaft...
Most of the other stuff that guys says seems correct, so I am surprised that he may have flubbed on something so fundamental. Perhaps he just assumed there must be a driveshaft based on the transmission tunnel?

[no96]

It seems clear that there are two big eMotors straddling the rear differential, but if the cars.com guys is right there is a reverse driveshaft (back to front) also driving the front wheels. I am dubious and doubt it. I think the "transmission tunnel" is filled with batteries, not a driveshaft...

From RoadandTrack.com -- New Car Search - 2009 Fisker Karma (1/2009) (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7392)


The 4-seat 4650-lb. Karma S uses a powertrain — dubbed "Q-drive" — developed in conjunction with Quantum Technologies. Q-drive consists of two electric motors powered by a lithium-ion battery pack (located in the center tunnel)

On a slightly different note, seems like there is a lot more stuff in the Karma
than the Tesla Roadster, makes me wonder how Fisker can plan to sell it for
$87,900 when Tesla can't even build a Roadster for that much.

[doug]

seems like there is a lot more stuff in the Karma
than the Tesla Roadster, makes me wonder how Fisker can plan to sell it for
$87,900 when Tesla can't even build a Roadster for that much.
Fewer batteries.

[TEG]

Yep, was going to mention that. And it doesn't have a carbon fiber body either. Even so, maybe they sell the first batch at a loss to get interest going?

Even if Fisker and Tesla can turn a "per car profit" it is going to take a while to recap all those big R&D $.

[James]

Fewer batteries.

That also means that the Fisker Karma batteries are being deep cycled many more times. If that car is being driven 40 miles per day, those batteries are getting abused a lot more than a Tesla Roadster that is driven 40 miles per day.

[siry]

@James - it goes back to the chemistry. The batteries used by PHEV manufacturers like the Volt and FIsker use chemistries that are much more tolerant of cycling over time. The two main ones we hear about are Lithium Manganese and Lithium Iron-Phosphate. The lG chem batteries in the volt are Li-Mn and so are the batteries made by ALP, Fisker's battery supplier. They can cycle several thousand times with a much lower degradation than Lithium Colbat Oxide cells cycling several hundred times

[WarpedOne]

Fewer batteries.
It cannot be just that.
Tesla is supposedly willing to sell the complete ESS for 30.000 USD.
ESS with only half the current capacity would still cost more than 15k, closer to 20k $ because of electronics and support systems.

Fisker is in for a price increase.

[Joseph]

To add to Siry, these batteries' high cycling tolerance is generally a tradeoff with other capabilities.

A battery with high cycling capabilities may not have high energy density, or a battery with high energy denisty may not have a high power density. There are tons of trade-offs in battery design.

[dpeilow]

Detroit 2009: Henrik Fisker talks about the future of the Karma, and a low-cost model - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/22/detroit-2009-henrik-fisker-talks-about-the-future-of-the-karma/)

[doug]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3224219802_4efbcb1d02_b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/f1geek/3224219802/sizes/l/in/set-72157612950614596/)

[doug]

Fisker ad at LAX

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3346/3224811948_9e41f2e870_o.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/hwanung/3224811948/in/set-72157612915995133)

[TEG]

It clearly says rear-wheel drive unlike an article that claimed 4 wheel drive.

It also says "Fully blended electric regenerative brake combined with friction braking"

[TEG]

Somehow the front looks a bit different here:
http://www.egmcartech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/2010_fisker_karma_front_main.jpg

Fisker looking for 40 U.S. dealers to sell the 2010 Karma (http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/01/24/fisker-looking-for-40-us-dealers-to-sell-the-2010-karma/)

Lots of pix here:
2010 Fisker Karma - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/egmcartech/sets/72157612453271815/)

[vfx]

I thought so too but could not put my finger on it. Yes the obvious black grill without the vertical "teeth" look, but there is something else. Maybe the whole nose got pinched like a hand squeezing someone's lips shut.

Maybe the ends/edges of the lips are not as upturned.


Anyway. it's better. -And we have not asked for our money back.

By the way. the Sunset is probably going to be 25Kish more that the coupe.

[doug]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3360/3220255878_922435145e_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pro_ninja/3220255878/sizes/o/)

They changed the appearance of the lower air intake...
And at least from this angle, the main grill appears to be grimacing less... that is the corners seem less upturned. Could also just be the color. Looks better anyhow.
But I wish they had just done the styling more like the Tramonto.

http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/fisker-tramonto.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/114/308263259_56087bed66_o.jpg

Has a much more sensible interior (http://www.fiskercb.com/beta/images/Tramonto-large-10.jpg) as well.

[DrTaras]

By the way. the Sunset is probably going to be 25Kish more that the coupe.

How do you know that? On their web site they just say "significantly more."

[doug]

Steve Parker: Exclusive: Major dealer group to sell hybrid Fisker Karma (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-parker/exclusive-major-dealer-gr_b_162436.html)


...we've learned exclusively that one of the nation's largest auto dealer groups has been signed by Fisker Automotive to carry their sedan and hardtop convertible Karma plug-in hybrid models...

According to industry journal Automotive News, the influential Ron Tonkin Automotive Group owns some 15 dealerships in and around the Portland, OR area. AN says it is the #81 dealership group in the US with 2007 sales of almost 23,000 new, used and fleet cars and trucks for $466 million. Tonkin will be Fisker's exclusive Oregon state dealership.

[vfx]

How do you know that? On their web site they just say "significantly more."


My wife had put down a deposit on a Karma back when it was 1K. When the price went to 80K (now 87) we decided to pass. Then the Sunset came out. She drives a convertible now so I asked if she had gotten her refund. She said had not got around to it so I called Fisker to ask if we could transfer our Karma over to a Sunset. The answer was no not really (with a little hedging) and that's when I got the 25K more number

I guess we are still keeping our reservation number 856 because it may have value later. Certainly more that the 1K investment we have now as the deposit has risen to 5K for later cars.

They also said they are on track to deliver the first 100 cars at the end of this year.

[doug]

From DC autoshow:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3326/3269489427_0a4f14b509_b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/17290692@N03/3269489427/sizes/l/in/photostream/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3386/3267411955_83b6372f0d_b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/krossbow/3267411955/sizes/l/)

[DaveD]

Has TEG already found these wheels, or should we have betting pool to see how long it'll take him?

[TEG]

LOL! I am tired of looking at wheels for a while. Maybe someone else can volunteer to track those down.

Karma Wheel 255/30ZR22 (http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2010/def/2010-Fisker-Karma-Wheel-Caliper-1920x1440.jpg)

[graham]

Fisker Karma S convertible now available for order - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/25/fisker-karma-s-convertible-now-available-for-order/)


Hopeful buyers of the Fisker Karma S now have a place to send their deposits to get in line for the first run of the extended-range plug-in drop top. Head PR man Russel Datz has reportedly confirmed that today's deposits of $25,000 will lead to deliveries at the end of 2011, though the final price has yet to be determined. That's a long wait to be sure, but getting a brand new vehicle with such cutting edge technology is anything but easy. Oh, and did we mention it's also stunningly beautiful?

[doug]

Apparently Fisker ran a TV commercial in the LA market just before the Oscars.
Fisker Karma Makes An Oscar Appearance | Autopia from Wired.com (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/02/fisker-karma-ma.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJlhcBotQ7w
.
The commercial looks rather low budge, but appears they're actually trying to do some advertising. Not sure how effective it is, but it shows something about their target customers. It was posted here earlier how they have ads at LAX.

[graham]

Interesting that the feel the need for advertising. They have made a big deal that they are sold out through mid-2010 - I wonder if pre-sales are not going as well as they would like.

Edit to add:

The commercial looks rather low budge
Agreed.

[doug]

Interesting that the feel the need for advertising. They have made a big deal that they are sold out through mid-2010 - I wonder if pre-sales are not going as well as they would like.

Well Fisker has always seemed to take a more traditional approach (at least in appearance) than Tesla. I guess part of that is advertising.

[donauker]

Well Fisker has always seemed to take a more traditional approach (at least in appearance) than Tesla. I guess part of that is advertising.

Given that Fisker is signing up existing dealers to sell their vehicles, I would imagine that advertising is part of their sales model.

[doug]

Right... suits, dealers, auto shows, advertising.... more traditional.

[stopcrazypp]

Interesting that the feel the need for advertising. They have made a big deal that they are sold out through mid-2010 - I wonder if pre-sales are not going as well as they would like.

Edit to add:

Agreed.

A combination of the Volt & the Model S will likely cut into their sales. Lucky for Fisker it launched earlier, so it can move to a new model by the time the Volt and Model S comes out.

They are trying to sell at Mercedes CLS volume (15k per year) with a premium of $20k ($87k Karma vs $67k CLS). In this kind of economy it'll be harder. It'll help if they develop the European market like they said they plan to.

[Kevin Harney]

Anyone know the status of the Fisker. Just realized that is kinda close to Tucker LOL .... Do they have a working prototype? A production vehicle? have they done any testing ? do they have a plant site ? done any tooling ? or do they seem to be behind Tesla ? Seems to me all we have seen so far is hype. Though I do believe they are more than hype.

[stopcrazypp]

Anyone know the status of the Fisker. Just realized that is kinda close to Tucker LOL .... Do they have a working prototype? A production vehicle? have they done any testing ? do they have a plant site ? done any tooling ? or do they seem to be behind Tesla ? Seems to me all we have seen so far is hype. Though I do believe they are more than hype.

They are ahead of Tesla if you are using the Model S to compare, using the Roadster they are behind. They have Valmet to build their car (just like Tesla had Lotus). They appear to have a working prototype (see the videos) and claim they are in the process of safety testing or done with it (if they aren't at this stage then I don't know how they can possibly make their deadline at the end of the year).

Certainly not as transparent as when Tesla launched their Roadster, so it's harder to judge.

[vfx]

Apparently Fisker ran a TV commercial in the LA market just before the Oscars.


I watched the Oscars and did not see the spot. There were several pre-award shows on at the time though and maybe I or they were on opposing channels at the time.



The commercial looks rather low budge...

My take.

I'd say the spot suffered most from going over 30 seconds. Any longer (like 45 or 60) and you really have to tell a story.
Also, it tastes like too many cooks all tried to get in their ingredients.

That said, it might work well at a kiosk or airport venue.

The driving car footage would have been 10 times better though Sonoma's green fields or through the woods on Mt Tam.

I think they did OK if a commercial was an afterthought. It's a bunch of disparate shots that they probably augmented with the artwork shots. No flow.

Photography is not even close to the still work they present.

The traveling soft vignette is cool but way overdone.

[Rheazombi]

Its cool to see any sort of ad for an electric-ish car, but it's definitely got that "Reach for the sky, Devry!" vibe. :rolleyes:

The editing is way quicker than necessary, and the music is very "stock loops lol". I agree that its too long.

Sometimes a low budget ad can in itself give me a lower view of a company, and make me think they shouldn't have bothered at all. But I guess thats more true for a really competitive market and not something aimed at the more environmentally-minded consumers.

(besides, its a shame how much some companies spend on marketing when they could be using that money to improve their product!)

[vfx]

Sometimes a low budget ad can in itself give me a lower view of a company, and make me think they shouldn't have bothered at all.

Good point.

This work is so low class compared the the car, the website, show booth. and the general professional image they have put out to date that this probably brings them down a notch.

It's something that I would have expected from Aptera, Tango or Corbin. Take a scrappy startup full of brilliant engineers, one whom has a kid that wants be the next Michael Bay and you get the mishmash we see here.

[graham]

Fisker ekes out $3M to put finishing touches on its swanky electric car VentureBeat (http://venturebeat.com/2009/03/02/fisker-ekes-out-3m-to-put-finishing-touches-on-its-swanky-electric-car/)


Fisker Automotive, maker of a luxury plug-in hybrid vehicle called the Karma, has squeezed an additional $3 million out of its private investors, bringing its total capital raised to more than $100 million — a staggering feat considering the state of the credit market. The Irvine, Calif. company just raked in $65 million in September, but says the recent addition to its third round is just the right amount to put finishing touches on the Karma before it rolls into showrooms.

Fisker is also trying to get its hands on some of the government’s newly-allocated cleantech money. It has already applied for a few low-interest federal loans offered through the Department of Energy — which it says it would use to begin developing a more practical, lower-end vehicle. This seems like a smart move for a company that will attempt to sell its primary product for $87,900 a pop in a down economy. But for now, the $3 million will be split between fine-tuning the Karma and a stake in an undisclosed battery company. The latter will be critical in securing an exclusive supply of batteries compatible with the company’s vehicles, Fisker spokesperson Russell Datz told Earth2Tech.

[doug]

"Henrik at the drafting table shooting a commercial to air during the Academy Awards."

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3370/3273397234_9b937839cd.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/3273397234/sizes/l/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3492/3272544425_2a7f1b51e7.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/3272544425/sizes/l/in/set-72157613676456198/)

[dpeilow]

Luxury hybrid sports car maker raises $94 million - Jan Norman on Small Business - OCRegister.com (http://jan.freedomblogging.com/2009/03/16/luxury-hybrid-auto-maker-raises-94-million-from-vcs/10487/)


The company plans to build a family-oriented version of the Karma before going forward with the cheaper small car, Reuters says.

[graham]

Ah... they mean "$94 million" in total. I got confused... they just raised $3 million and now they raised an additional $94 million? No, this is the total from inception.

[James]

I just don't see the point of this vehicle. Why would I spend $89,000 for something that still has an ICE?

This is basically just a car that gets a high average MPG. It is still a gasoline vehicle.

The Toyota Prius with the Hymotion plug-in kit does the same thing. I have driven mine for 5,000 miles now and the novelty has definitely worn off.

I want to go pure electric. I want to dump the ICE completely. At first I was excited about driving a Hymotion Prius and getting the first 25 to 30 miles from the lithium-ion battery pack.

But now I am just over it. That doesn't cut it. With the experience of having had it for six months now, I can say that most people won't really be impressed. It sounds good on paper (100+ MPG !!!) but the reality is that it is still a gas vehicle.

The same goes for the Volt and the Fisker Karma.

[TEG]

Thankfully, Tesla agrees with you!

[Rheazombi]

I've always thought so too. It just seems as though you're getting the worst of both worlds, doing nothing groundbreaking, continuing to fuel (get it?) the need for ICEs, OPEC, etc. and plus the fisker is so expensive for a glorified Plug in Prius.

At least the Tesla was truly innovative for an expensive sports car.

I really wish the 'range anxiety' nonsense would go away. How hard is it to rent a car (or leave a day earlier) for the two times you visit your grandma 1000 miles away? In a few years EVs will probably get better mileage than ICEs anyway...:rolleyes:

ok... off soap box now. </internet rage>

Seriously tho... the main appeal of pure EVs to me is my irrational fear of zombie apocalypses. When infrastructure collapses, I'll still have my off-grid solar PV to power my car!!:biggrin:

[donauker]

plus the fisker is so expensive for a glorified Plug in Prius.

Ha Ha, I assume this is a joke!

This is akin to saying the Roadster is so expensive for a glorified plug in Insight. :confused:

[doug]

Karma engine cover

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3465/3405763490_3edd70f348_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fiskerautomotive/3405763490/sizes/l/)

[Tdave]

Karma engine cover

An engine cover. How ... quaint.

[vfx]

Another round of funding.
Fisker claims another $85 million in VC funding (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/07/fisker-claims-another-85-million-in-vc-funding/#continued)

[stopcrazypp]

Another round of funding.
Fisker claims another $85 million in VC funding (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/07/fisker-claims-another-85-million-in-vc-funding/#continued)

Fisker's $85 Million Round Makes Tesla Look Bad (http://www.businessinsider.com/fiskers-85-million-round-makes-tesla-look-bad-2009-4)

Darryl comments on the news.