View Full Version : My Town Hall Notes
tonybelding
12-12-2007, 01:35 PM
Here are my notes from the "Town Hall" conference. . .
Production car number one -- Elon's car -- has been assembled at Hethel. This car does not have the final transmission, and it has a life expectency of only a few thousand miles before the transmission is liable to fail. Elon apparently finds this acceptable, but he acknowledges that that's not going to fly with Tesla's regular customers.
The first and second transmission suppliers couldn't deliver, and now Tesla are on their third and fourth suppliers. That means they have two companies working on the problem in parallel. As Ze'ev explained it, even if one fails the other will come through. If they are both successful then Tesla will be able to accelerate their production plans. Now that Tesla is a recognized name, it's easier to get the bigger and more experienced transmission companies to work with them.
The EV has very unique transmission requirements, and Tesla have learned a great deal about them. "We've seen every possible way a transmission can fail." Transmission companies 3 & 4 are not starting from scratch; they are taking the existing transmission design and improving it. The design itself belongs to Tesla, and could become an important IP asset for the company. White Star will "probably" use the same transmission unit as the Roadster.
A single-speed transmission wouldn't solve the problem. Some of the problems they've experienced are related to shifting, but many are not. Elon expressed frustration with durability problems, because these are things that only show up after driving the car a few thousand miles. That makes the problems time-consuming to diagnose and fix. Tesla will probably ship at least some of the first cars with a less-than-perfect transmission and slightly reduced performance, then upgrade them later. (Ze'ev pointed out how expensive the upgrades could be for Tesla, but insisted they'll do it regardless.)
The car is very nearly 100% approved for sale, from a regulatory standpoint. There is a minor test, a "door vibration" test as I understood, which is all that remains. No mention was made of the airbag exepmtpion, but it would seem to be implied that they have that resolved.
The previously announced EPA range of 245 was the result of an error by the testing lab. The corrected result will more likely be somewhere in the area of 220-230 miles. This does not reflect any change in the car's actual performance, and the "real world" results described on Tesla's website are still as valid as they were before. It is also likely that some changes to the car will require re-testing for range, so it will be some time before there is a truly final, official number that goes on the window sticker.
A question was asked of why they couldn't get a higher top speed from the car. The explanation was, to design the car to be stable and operate correctly at a high speed would have required compromises that would have reduced its energy efficiency. For example, the aerodynamics would have to generate more downforce to keep the car glued to the road at that speed, which would result in increased drag at normal driving speeds. Other parts would have to be over-engineered and their weight increased.
There is no change to Tesla's "Master Plan". They are not planning to sell out to any other company. They are going through another private investment round now. They do eventually want to go public, but they are wary of doing that too early. Fundraising is not a concern for the company's immediate survival. According to Elon, even if all their many other investors got cold feet, he personally would back the company financially to whatever extent necessary.
Future Tesla cars, including White Star, may be "pure EVs" or "pure EVs with range extenders" (apparently all are pure, but some are more pure than others). Tesla's goal is to increase the number of miles people drive on grid power, and they are agnostic about the means used to achieve that.
Elon reiterated several times that they are absolutely committed to delivering a car that buyers will love. Production will be very slow until the transmission problems are fully resolved, which means full-rate production will probably begin about summer, probably late summer. There are some uncertainties about the schedule, and they are trying not to over-promise until they have it figured out better.
BlackbirdHighway
12-12-2007, 02:03 PM
They would not promise that all 600 (or so) present buyers would get cars by the end of 2008. I got the distinct impression that this is unlikely to happen. Being #584, I'm expecting a 2009 model. Up until now, I had some hope that it would just make it in 2008, like Santa would deliver it on Christmas eve or something.
Also, they are not yet ready to declare what the warranty period and coverage will be, but it would be appropriate for a sports-type car. Again, my impression is that it would not be the 7-years, 100,000 miles full drivetrain warranty that one caller requested.
I thought it was a very good conference, lots of good information. I recorded it, but I'm not sure how that turned out. I'll have a chance to give it a listen tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks for posting the recap, folks.
..."pure EVs with range extenders"...
I still struggle with that phrase and concept.
If it is a BEV with a detachable generator, that you only take on long road trips, I could see that.
But if there is an ICE permanently part of the vehicle I will always think of it as a hybrid.
malcolm
12-12-2007, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the posts gentlemen.
Good to see continued openness.
A 4th transmission supplier! Well at least some good will come of it if Tesla can get a few more patents out of the process.
I hope that Elon's comment about the depth of his own pockets can be tested with covering the cost of the transmission upgrades when they become available. Especially for car #2 :)
Mistake at the EPA lab? By 15 -25 miles? Maybe this happens a lot, we just never hear about it.
Tony, thanks for the update. Glad to know Elon is still on board with moving Roadster and WhiteStar forward.
Dogtown
12-12-2007, 03:30 PM
I’m sorry but this is not “Openness.” This is damage control. The former “Open” policies were a way of doing business transparently in a very open and public way. This was a meeting with customers to make them feel better about the very questionable recent events. Events that were obviously not addressed and are still of great concern. I’m not saying this is the beginning of the end or anything. However, this meeting is not representative of the type of communication we have come to expect from Tesla.
I do fear that this is what we will continue to see from the current management. Just because you call it a blog that doesn’t mean you are being open. The recent posts have been no more than new marketing propaganda or more damage control for typos in news stories.
It is important that the new management at Tesla understand that we have come to expect a certain company culture from them. It is this culture that should be at the core of the company and our support of such a company. Just going through the motions while making unjustified decisions will not cut it. We know when it is being faked
Tesla will probably ship at least some of the first cars with a less-than-perfect transmission and slightly reduced performance, then upgrade them later. (Ze'ev pointed out how expensive the upgrades could be for Tesla, but insisted they'll do it regardless.)
Promises of a free transmission upgrade with purchase are definitely a bit odd, but perhaps the best attempt to salvage this situation.
But what about the terms... Do you get it in writing? Do they replace your gen 1 trans if it is still working a year later at 10,000 miles? Do they automatically retrofit everyone even if a particular car hasn't developed problems? This is a like a pro-active recall notice before they start shipping!
Wouldn't there be some sort of safety liability question if you ship a vehicle knowing full well the transmission may fail soon? Couldn't transmission failures lead to possible accidents?
I want to be positive here, but this sounds like it may not be a viable approach to get past this particular problem.
At least not on a production car for road use on sale to the general public. Maybe you sign something on delivery absolving them of liability related to transmission failures?!
This is really an unfortunate situation.
tonybelding
12-12-2007, 04:13 PM
I’m sorry but this is not “Openness.” This is damage control. The former “Open” policies were a way of doing business transparently in a very open and public way. This was a meeting with customers to make them feel better about the very questionable recent events. Events that were obviously not addressed and are still of great concern.
Not sure what you are referring to. As far as I could tell, they answered every question that was asked.
@dogtown
I disagree with you. First of all, I have managed communication at Tesla for over a year now so you can criticize me on how we are communicating but it has nothing to do with the recent changes. The second place where I disagree is that you seem to imply that an open invitation to all customers to come to our place of work or join us by conference call) and meet the entire executive team for a face to face meeting where any questions can be asked and addressed is somehow a step backwards from our previous practice, which consisted mostly of blogs. i am a big fan of the company blogs and definitely want to continue them but I would argue that the key issues that are concerning our customers were great enough that it was much more important to provide a face to face forum rather than a blog. Last, I don't think that customer drives and first drives with the car companies is marketing propaganda. It is a very important and serious milestone and one that I think people are very interested in hearing. Im the first to admit that there has been less communication in recent months and I'll take the blame for that, but we have had our hands full with leadership changes and a very intense focus on the issues at hand, and I have been loathe to fill the void with anything but the most meningful types of updates, which in recent times has been reports of meaningful progress on the transmission and the status of the roadster program.
Darryl
tonybelding
12-12-2007, 04:22 PM
Promises of a free transmission upgrade with purchase are definitely a bit odd, but perhaps the best attempt to salvage this situation.
But what about the terms... Do you get it in writing? Do they replace your gen 1 trans if it is still working a year later at 10,000 miles? Do they automatically retrofit everyone even if a particular car hasn't developed problems? This is a like a pro-active recall notice before they start shipping!
Wouldn't there be some sort of safety liability question if you ship a vehicle knowing full well the transmission may fail soon? Couldn't transmission failures lead to possible accidents?
Some of this was discussed actually.
My understanding is that the current transmission isn't considered durable or safe enough to ship to regular customers. They will at least make it safe (so it won't seize up) before doing that.
The early transmission would be an option for those near the beginning of the waiting list. In other words, if you prefer to wait for it to be perfected, then you can wait (and presumably still get your Founder's Series or "Signature 100" car). Those who get the early transmission will know what they are getting.
The cars with early transmissions will be programmed for slightly less performance in order to "baby" the transmission. Elon clearly promised that everybody will end up with a full-performance car. In order for that to happen, everybody has to end up with the final production transmission.
@TEG
I think there was a bit of confusion on this. we won't ship any cars without relaible, durable transmissions. The distinction is between the short term solution of a fixed second gear, which is easier to develop and test, but does not provide the performance spec we have set, and the final solution that we will continue to work on. Once we have a final solution to the issue we will provide a free upgrade to customers who have been delivered cars with the earlier transmissions so that their car meets the performance specs we have set.
BlackbirdHighway
12-12-2007, 04:26 PM
TEG, I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that Elon was taking about only 20 cars or so that might need a transmission upgrade later. And each of the early customers would have the choice of either getting a temp. one or waiting for the final one. I think this is just an attempt to head off losing any of the early high profile celebrity buyers who might bail if they have to wait too long, which would look bad.
stopcrazypp
12-12-2007, 04:33 PM
@dogtown
I have heard this arguement before but I am not sure how much more open do people want Tesla to be. I mean they have blogs already and they are willing to talk face to face with customers, which is more open then any other auto company I have seen. I don't see them closing up either in the recent months. You can't really expect daily updates from them. They likely will post updates when they reach a real milestone.
There has been such a negative air in the blogosphere around tesla lately, probably due to the personnel changes, but I don't see indication of them closing up.
@tonybelding
Did you get a chance to ask about Martin's departure? I don't really agree with the tranmission scheme either. I know they want the first cars out quickly, but delivering with a less than perfect transmission doesn't sound like a good move. It would be expensive to replace once it fails. I hope this only applies to Elon's car, which is already built anyways.
we won't ship any cars without relaible, durable transmissions.... the short term solution of a fixed second gear...
OK, there have been a number of prototypes driving around locked in 2nd gear for a while now. Without specifically saying (but dancing around it quite a bit) it sounds like the plans is to ship some initial production cars also locked in 2nd gear. (Am I correct about that or not?)
I can understand that approach, but then I wonder about this statement:
"A single-speed transmission wouldn't solve the problem. Some of the problems they've experienced are related to shifting, but many are not. Elon expressed frustration with durability problems, because these are things that only show up after driving the car a few thousand miles."
So, are the models locked in 2nd gear long term durable / reliable or not?
Dogtown
12-12-2007, 04:52 PM
I disagree with you...
...Im the first to admit that there has been less communication in recent months and I'll take the blame for that, but we have had our hands full with leadership changes and a very intense focus on the issues at hand...
Thank you for the prompt response. I do not want to try and start a flame war and be viewed as a Troll. I sincerely hope that you are right and the company can over come these hurdles. I have misinterpreted the posts on this forum. I thought there were concerns about what could possible happen at the company, to cause the only founder who was fully focused on this company to be kicked out. I guess the question was just not asked in the open meeting with the entire executive team.
For reference, Martin responded about the town hall meeting over here (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php?t=771).
Town Hall impressions
I think the customer call went pretty well. The Tesla spokespeople did a good job of keeping the discussion focused on the Roadster and on Tesla's vision - rather than on the issues surrounding my departure.
Elon's only comment about my departure was benign, noting that my "personality and attitude" are better suited to running startup-phase companies than larger companies. Generally I agree with with this assessment, though as I have stated before, I would have been happy to have continued to contribute to the growth of Tesla Motors and the delivery of the Roadster in another capacity besides as CEO.
Congratulations to the Tesla team for creating a very positive event that addressed many of the open concerns especially surrounding the Roadster shipment delays. It was a very good idea to make the Tesla executive staff available to answer questions directly from customers at this time and in this way.
Still looking forward to my Roadster #2!"
The cars with early transmissions will be programmed for slightly less performance in order to "baby" the transmission.
Any specifics on that? Just locked in 2nd gear?
Or something like reduced eMotor torque? Lower redline?
tonybelding
12-12-2007, 06:10 PM
Any specifics on that? Just locked in 2nd gear?
Or something like reduced eMotor torque? Lower redline?
I'm a bit fuzzy on it myself. At one point they seemed to be talking about something in the firmware that would reduce the peak torque, and at another time they seemed to be talking about locking it into 2nd gear. Or maybe both. Or maybe they haven't decided yet.
Any clarification from Tesla would be welcome.
tonybelding, thank you for posting your notes very informative.
My understanding is that they will deliver cars with a single speed "set up" to get cars on the road and being driven by customers. Tesla has realised that at this point, time is of the essence, the "transmission problem" and the "realibility problem" is being perceived as a "credibility problem" which goes beyond transmissions.
As they say "perception is reality" and the reality is that there are no cars on the road.
The line would be "If you don't want to wait, we will deliver a car with a single speed and at a later date replace the transmission and alter the software" of course this would be free to the customer.
They had 2 companies work on the transmission, and now they have another 2 companies that seem to have just started working on the transmission.
If you want a Tesla in a timely fashion, get a sinlge speed, get a free transmission upgrade, and get a break on the price in the process.
Tony,
Thanks for the excellent notes. I can't add much to the technical discussion on the transmission, but from what I can tell, the fence-sitters, those that want a Roadster, may even be able to afford it, had better stand back for the time being. Maybe even weigh other EV options. I hope to hell Tesla figures it out and goes public doing so--and Martin has some sort of options. The now VERY speculative time frame is very close to the Volt's, and at 1/3 the price. That's sobering.
BlackbirdHighway
12-12-2007, 07:15 PM
They had 2 companies work on the transmission, and now they have another 2 companies that seem to have just started working on the transmission.
They (actually Elon, I think) did say that the 2 new companies are not starting from scratch, but building and improving on the existing design, now that they (Tesla) has a much better understanding of where it went wrong.
With two failed efforts already, and no time left for a third, they are certainly showing they are serious about getting the thing out by pursuing two in parallel. Normally you would not want to incur that sort of expense.
He stressed how long it takes for a transmission development cycle. Molds have to be designed and made in order to produce castings of prototype housings. Other parts have to be machined, then assembled. Then you can't tell if it's successful until many, many miles of testing have been performed, and it all takes lots and lots of time.
If you want a Tesla in a timely fashion, get a sinlge speed, get a free transmission upgrade, and get a break on the price in the process.
When you say "get a break on the price" does that just mean the transmission fixes will be free, or are they actually offering discounts to those willing to accept the "temporarily crippled" version of the vehicle?
Their most pressing priority is to put cars on the road, they have a single speed (high gear) transmission that works. What stops Tesla from approaching customers with deposits and offering a free transmission upgrade, and a price adjustment on the car for the inconvenience of enduring a transmission and software upgrade at a later date.
Or get a car now, with the single speed plus the upgrade and Tesla pays for the charger and the installation of the charger at the customer's house or business.
How many cars do they need to put on the road in a timely fashion to maintain momentum and credibility? 25-50-75-100? Whatever number they decide, put them on the road in a hurry ASAP....time is of the essence.
This transmission development can drag out, at a juncture where Tesla is almost out of time to have additional delays. They need to have cars on the road driven by customers.
TEG what do you mean by temporarily crippled? They won't do 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, perhaps at this juncture doing "tires to the pavement" is a higher priority than 0 to 60.
tonybelding
12-12-2007, 07:37 PM
I can't add much to the technical discussion on the transmission, but from what I can tell, the fence-sitters, those that want a Roadster, may even be able to afford it, had better stand back for the time being. Maybe even weigh other EV options.
The way I see it, it's the guys at the front of the line who have the most to worry about. Here I am as number 315, so the problems should be sorted out long before they get to me. The only concern for someone placing a new reservation today would be when they'll get a car, not whether the car will be good. And nobody else is shipping a production EV yet either, so where else are you going to go?
The other impression I got from the meeting is that they are putting intensive resources into the transmission problem. They have major transmission design companies working on it. I haves no doubt whatsoever that they're going to come up with an excellent, reliable transmission. The only enemy is time, because they need it yesterday. Or last year, really.
I hope to hell Tesla figures it out and goes public doing so--and Martin has some sort of options. The now VERY speculative time frame is very close to the Volt's, and at 1/3 the price. That's sobering.
I don't see it.
The Volt is much further from reality than the Roadster, there isn't even a running Volt prototype yet. But more importantly, they're completely different kinds of cars. The Volt isn't a sports car. I'm getting a Roadster as a replacement for my Esprit, not my Bonneville.
The Volt is much further from reality than the Roadster, there isn't even a running Volt prototype yet. But more importantly, they're completely different kinds of cars. The Volt isn't a sports car. I'm getting a Roadster as a replacement for my Esprit, not my Bonneville.
Yes! I could see someone going for a Tango, Exige S, or even Lexus GS450h instead of the Roadster, but not the Volt concept. Tesla going out of their way to praise the Volt (http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/12/07/is-tesla-planning-to-build-an-e-rev-too/) seems so peculiar to me. I don't see the Volt as any kind of competition to the Roadster.
The roadster is a re powered Elise, with enough modifications to make it a viable car.
It would seem that Tesla is realising that a fully electric high volume car (sedan) at a price point that car turn some sort of a profit sell in the market, keep the investors content is intellectually closer to a Volt than a Roadster.
If Tesla is struggling with a transmission, how about a whole car?
If it gets to the point of a Tesla sedan it would have a "range extender" in the form of an ICE to keep the price down, the battery costs down, and sell a reasonable volume to keep the various stakeholders content.
TEG, the roadster is a toy for the individual that wants and can afford a 100K toy! The sedan is the "workhorse" that has to make the money, and its got Volt breathing down its neck.
graham
12-12-2007, 08:48 PM
The roadster is a re powered Elise, with enough modifications to make it a viable car.
One of the more interesting revelations at the meeting I thought was that only 10% of the Roadster is made of Elise parts. It is almost entirely a new vehicle.
The claim in the meeting was that any given "new" model car you see on the road uses parts from other vehicles of the same manufacturer. So most any new car design isn't entirely new at all.
In the case of the Roadster, it is not so much an Elise conversion anymore because 90% of the parts are unique to the vehicle. It is as much a completely new car as anything else on the road today. While it is true that it is still being assembled on the Lotus manufacturing line, almost all the individual parts come from manufacturers around the globe.
-g
BlackbirdHighway
12-12-2007, 08:53 PM
Tesla going out of their way to praise the Volt seems so peculiar to me.
Elon spoke about how we need to transition from an oil based transportation system to an electric one as quickly as possible. So anything that helps that cause is worth supporting, hence the support for the Volt.
A lot of people seem to think he is just in it for the money, but I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of his passion for electric cars. If he makes some money on the way, even better.
I also have serious doubts about GM, but I would love to see them prove me wrong.
Dogtown
12-12-2007, 11:38 PM
Their most pressing priority is to put cars on the road, they have a single speed (high gear) transmission that works.
The absolute worst thing they could do is rush to put cars on the road that is not 100% ready. You start with a bunch of recalls and issue from the production car and you are doomed. You can take time with the test vehicles. The buyers will still be here. Others have waited far longer for far less. The press can overlook the faults with a test car. They will not with a production model.
Elon spoke about how we need to transition from an oil based transportation system to an electric one as quickly as possible. So anything that helps that cause is worth supporting, hence the support for the Volt.
A lot of people seem to think he is just in it for the money, but I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of his passion for electric cars. If he makes some money on the way, even better.
I also have serious doubts about GM, but I would love to see them prove me wrong.
I do not think you can be so sure about that. It is about the money, and it needs to be. It doesn’t do any of us any good if they can not stay in business. After everything that has happened this week it pains me to watch this video. I think it takes on a whole new meaning now:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x25986_tesla-electric-car_auto
I hope they can pull it all together and make it work.
The early optimism and conviction was intoxicating. It is rough to watch reality set in harshly like this.
TEG what do you mean by temporarily crippled?
Just what has been discussed. Locked in a single gear and/or "detuned" so that it doesn't perform to published specs, until a later date when it is retrofitted to get back to published specs. I assume that the spec we are really talking about here is the 0-60 < 4. I don't know if these proposed changes would affect range (which is perhaps a bit squishy anyways bouncing around between 200 and 250)
On the positive side of things, the Roadster is still a gorgeous machine. When I saw the concept first introduced, I did expect it would gain some weight and would have a little bit of "spec rot" because that nearly always seems to be the case having watched other cars go from concept->prototype->production.
There are also usually changes to the appearance. So far the changes to the Roadster body are very minor... Like different appearance of the LED taillights that don't seem to detract from the overall design.
Also, on the positive side, I really think Elon would be very dissatisfied with not eventually getting that promised 0-60 time, so I have confidence that they will stay at it until the transmission issue is finally resolved.
I would also guess that there is a small minority of Roadster customers who would actually be OK with it being detuned. Some customers may have come only for the appearance and/or green factor, and may not have any "lead foot" inclinations.
malcolm
12-13-2007, 06:20 AM
It's not a great pathway, but it is a workable - if unconventional one. Tesla is in the unenviable position of uncovering yet more significant differences between the ICE and the EV at a rather critical point in the development of its first commercial product.
**** happens.
On the positive side, although they missed predicting this, they have the engineering skills available to define and solve the problem and the financial backing to get it done.
It's still a little company attempting to do the impossible. In this respect nothing has changed.
Kardax
12-13-2007, 07:23 AM
I'm happy to see that the transmission will "probably" be used in WhiteStar. It makes little sense to go through all this money and pain and not carry the fruits of the labor across the whole product line. A result will be that anyone attempting to compete with WhiteStar and other Tesla models will need a transmission to keep up in performance.
I'm also happy to see Elon commiting himself to solving this issue, even if he has do pour more money into Tesla. With both his other companies (Solar City and SpaceX) profitable (and SpaceX not even having a successful launch yet!), he probably has the money to spare...
-Ryan
The way I see it, it's the guys at the front of the line who have the most to worry about. Here I am as number 315, so the problems should be sorted out long before they get to me. The only concern for someone placing a new reservation today would be when they'll get a car, not whether the car will be good. And nobody else is shipping a production EV yet either, so where else are you going to go?
The other impression I got from the meeting is that they are putting intensive resources into the transmission problem. They have major transmission design companies working on it. I haves no doubt whatsoever that they're going to come up with an excellent, reliable transmission. The only enemy is time, because they need it yesterday. Or last year, really.
I don't see it.
The Volt is much further from reality than the Roadster, there isn't even a running Volt prototype yet. But more importantly, they're completely different kinds of cars. The Volt isn't a sports car. I'm getting a Roadster as a replacement for my Esprit, not my Bonneville.
I view it a little differently as my motivations are to break our addiction to oil. So, I need a viable EV that looks good. We could argue all day about whether the Roadster is practical, but for my purposes, let's stick with commuter car. I think Tesla would be crazy to place vehicles on the road it knew would have transmission issues several thousand miles later--those could be very costly mistakes as well as PR nightmares that they may never recover from.
I also believe there are other options out there. Supposedly right now you can order a car from hybrid technologies, if you really want to gamble. By the time your number rolls around, I'd bet you lunch GM has a production Volt ready to roll as does Phoenix, miles, and God willing--ZAP. My point is that 2 years is a long way off and in this business, batteries change daily (see Toshibia's press release yesterday and Enerdel's last week). But for Tesla to put rubber on the road knowing it's product isn't complete, is a lawsuit and mistake waiting to happen.
The majority of the roadster "drives" have been done in high gear. The car has a 2 speed transmission on the spec sheet, and a single speed transmission when "the rubber meets the road".
Is it possible that these 2 additional transmission companies will come out and say "you need a clutch" lets go back to the drawing board?
tonybelding
12-13-2007, 09:02 AM
The majority of the roadster "drives" have been done in high gear. The car has a 2 speed transmission on the spec sheet, and a single speed transmission when "the rubber meets the road".
Is it possible that these 2 additional transmission companies will come out and say "you need a clutch" lets go back to the drawing board?
No. We were told they are taking the existing transmission design and correcting the problems with it. These are things like the types of bearings used, the flow of lubricant to the various bearings, mounting flanges that crack from metal fatigue, etc. They aren't changing the fundamental design of the transmission.
Remember they already have a transmission that works as intended for a few thousand miles. They just need to make it robust.
Tesla2Go
12-14-2007, 05:53 AM
I hope they can pull it all together and make it work.
The early optimism and conviction was intoxicating. It is rough to watch reality set in harshly like this.
It seems the general public is a lot harsher, you get the feeling there's an army of people just dying to say "I told you so" and speculating every little issue to death. Here is a new company trying to build an entirely new high performance vehicle, that has already stirred the big automakers into speeding up their plans for electric vehicles and is slowly but surely changing peoples perceptions about what an electric car can deliver. If it weren't for Tesla all we would hear about would still be ethanol and hydrogen. Teslas contribution is a LOT more than just a product. So is there really a reason to go from ecstasy to doom and gloom so quickly? Tesla is not building a "toy" for rich people. If this is all some people understand then no wonder we haven't seen vehicles like the Roadster until now. If anybody should be frustrated it should be Tesla Motors for trying to deal with the extremely fickle general public while having to deal with hundreds of issues on a daily basis, which frankly we don't know sh*t about. All we have are our precious opinions which in the end amount to nothing, and change nothing. So all my respect to the people who are actually trying.
It seems the general public is a lot harsher, you get the feeling there's an army of people just dying to say "I told you so" and speculating every little issue to death. Here is a new company trying to build an entirely new high performance vehicle, that has already stirred the big automakers into speeding up their plans for electric vehicles and is slowly but surely changing peoples perceptions about what an electric car can deliver. If it weren't for Tesla all we would hear about would still be ethanol and hydrogen. Teslas contribution is a LOT more than just a product. So is there really a reason to go from ecstasy to doom and gloom so quickly? Tesla is not building a "toy" for rich people. If this is all some people understand then no wonder we haven't seen vehicles like the Roadster until now. If anybody should be frustrated it should be Tesla Motors for trying to deal with the extremely fickle general public while having to deal with hundreds of issues on a daily basis, which frankly we don't know sh*t about. All we have are our precious opinions which in the end amount to nothing, and change nothing. So all my respect to the people who are actually trying.
I don't disagree that the public is harsh, but that's the free market and the masses will determine the success or failure of Tesla. Opinion does matter. Good point about Tesla igniting a fire that has incited all manufacturers to take notice...GM, Toyota, etc. But opinions DO matter because I spend my money based on my opinion. If a product is promised of a certain quality available at a certain time, then I expect to get it at face value. Moreover, this cuts across some serious social issues for a lot of us even more so than just banter about a performance car (like Tony's interest--which is fine by the way). So, I hope the powers that be are listening out there, as a potential customer who can afford it. I'm weighing my options and expressing concerns I have.
Tesla2Go
12-14-2007, 06:25 AM
I don't disagree that the public is harsh, but that's the free market and the masses will determine the success or failure of Tesla.
I hope that's not entirely true, because that would be the main reason to be depressed, looking at some of the truly retarded comments posted on various blogs where Tesla is mentioned...
Seeing how much trouble the use of oil to fuel your car brings, besides polluting the areas where concentrations of people live, we have wars, political blackmail, oil tankers destroying some unique wildlife habitat a few times a year....I would gladly accept a less than perfect first product that brings about a new era. But I'm not that naive to think the general public would ease up on their severity for any pioneer, it just strikes me as extremely hypocritical of a person to complain that a company isn't being run according to their high moral and ethical standards regarding openness and sincerity, when that persons free market decisions on buying something seems to be based purely on short sighted, personal gain disregarding the big picture.
tonybelding
12-14-2007, 06:41 AM
I hope that's not entirely true, because that would be the main reason to be depressed, looking at some of the truly retarded comments posted on various blogs where Tesla is mentioned...
It's striking how uninformed the comments become as soon as you move away from the "green" blog sites. Like for example, the comments on AutoBlog as compared with the ones on AutoBlogGreen.
Everyone has an opinion and is willing to share it. It reminds me of what somebody once said about Texas: Anyone you ask will happily tell you how to get to any place in the state, even if they don't know where it is.
Obviously there is a lot of education to be done.
However, this might be a good moment to remind everyone that the general public doesn't have a clue about Tesla's difficulties. Despite all the publicity, most people still don't know about Tesla. Among those who know the Roadster exists, most of them have no idea about the delays and problems. Those of us who are closely following Tesla's every move need to take a deep breath, step back, and remind ourselves that most of the world isn't closely following Tesla's every move. Not yet, anyhow. In a few months after some celebs begin getting their cars and the glowing reports start appearing in magazines, things will look different.
The general public, most people would like to see Tesla succeed. The public image and persona of the Roadster is a 100K electric toy for folks that can afford a 100k electric toy, the fact that "personalities" get the early cars merely reinforces the image.
The car was presented as a low production very exclusive, almost ready for prime time backed up with enormous engineering resources. Tesla took the attitude that they were several steps better than the rest of the "ordinary pedestrians" in the automotive industry.
In the meantime the car is not ready for prime time just yet, and the "pedestrians" are getting their pound of flesh in the same fashion that Tesla got its pound of flesh from the pedestrian.
Did Tesla reawaken GM to electric cars, possible. Did the venture capital from Silicon Valley reawaken GM to electric cars, possible.
In an ideal world,Tesla should have Roadsters on the road driven by "personalities", should have several "factory owned" dealerships/service centres up and running, and should be constructing the factory in New Mexico for the sedan.
stopcrazypp
12-14-2007, 12:51 PM
It's striking how uninformed the comments become as soon as you move away from the "green" blog sites. Like for example, the comments on AutoBlog as compared with the ones on AutoBlogGreen.
Despite all the publicity, most people still don't know about Tesla. Among those who know the Roadster exists, most of them have no idea about the delays and problems.
Yep, I agree with those sediments. In many of the automotive blogs I frequent, most don't know much about the Tesla aside from what is posted in the blog. In terms of the delays, I think most of them know they exist, but they don't know the cause. They tend to make blanket statements about EVs, like it was problems with the battery, etc. Then they go on about: "well I'll be impressed when there is a 4 door commuter car not some rich man's toy." They still strongly hold the idea that EVs HAVE to be about practicality and basically an "appliance mobile." I don't see them have any problem being impressed with the current batch of sports cars, but when it comes to EVs somehow it's a different standard.
I guess it's true that we shouldn't expect them to know much. I just hope this general negativity in the blogs doesn't mean mass refunds for Tesla. I suppose this is why Tesla wants to release the first cars early. But I can't help but feel that this less than perfect transmission will just be a liability. I mean the press is bound to get wind of it and it can't be good for Tesla's reputation.
Yes, I agree too.
(By the way, stopcrazypp, I think you meant to say "sentiments", not "sediments")
OhmExcited
12-14-2007, 08:31 PM
The Tesla website has the full audio of the town hall. Interesting "joke" from Elon at the beginning, expressing his dedication to completing a quality car: "I don't care what I have to do, who I have to kill...."
You had to be there.
malcolm
12-15-2007, 04:03 AM
here's the link
http://www.teslamotors.com/media/updates.php
This topic has been mentioned in this AutoBlogGreen article (http://ww.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/13/tesla-roadster-production-unit-1-completed-future-models-may/)
It appears that Martin's choice to post parting comments on this forum has perked up interest over here. There are a lot of new members lately.