Mysterious Clay Model?

[WhiteKnight]

On a lark I watched the recruitment video on Tesla's career page and at 1:23 in the video they showed a clay model which at first glance looks like Model S but upon closer examination may be BlueStar since it looks to be a shorter wheelbase with shorter overhangs.

What do you think?


http://vimeo.com/15411923

[tdelta1000]

On a lark I watched the recruitment video on Tesla's career page and at 1:23 in the video they showed a clay model which at first glance looks like Model S but upon closer examination may be BlueStar since it looks to be a shorter wheelbase with shorter overhangs.

What do you think?


http://vimeo.com/15411923

I need to take another look at this.

The clay model is of the Model S...just look at the body line.

[mnx]

When I first saw that video I assumed it was Model S (mostly due to the turbine wheels). I noticed it was shorter but thought maybe it wasn't a scale model. The front end has definitely been chopped off though.


On a lark I watched the recruitment video on Tesla's career page and at 1:23 in the video they showed a clay model which at first glance looks like Model S but upon closer examination may be BlueStar since it looks to be a shorter wheelbase with shorter overhangs.

What do you think?

[T@oo]

Looks like a two door coupe.

http://img.tapatalk.com/5574cae0-7c18-5191.jpg

[Kevin Harney]

Nice find !! I can only hope that is what it appears !! Love it so far :)

[doug]

Hmm... does have a coupe/two-door look to it.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4058&d=1328643564

Hard to say, though. It might just be the aspect ratio of the video. Also there's no B-pillar in the model to give a sense of how the doors open. But assuming the wheels are the same size, it certainly isn't a Model S.
http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/galleriffic_slide_960x640/model-s_960x640_f.jpg


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[dpeilow]

http://www.pressmyday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Thumbs-Up.jpg

[vfx]

Hmm... does have a coupe/two-door look to it.

Hard to say, though. It might just be the aspect ratio of the video. Also there's no B-pillar in the model to give a sense of how the doors open. But assuming the wheels are the same size, it certainly isn't a Model S.

I assume you mean video image (not digital) compression or squeeze. Aspect ratio is just the height to width ratio of the frame. If the image was distorted the round wheels would clearly show any deformation

An clay photo overlay with the S would reveal some info. 2 versions. One lining up the wheels and another trying to match the general shape with the S to see where the wheels fall.

I also think the clay has a two door boxy look.

[Rifleman]

Not the best overlay (only took 30 seconds in MS paint), but it at least gives some idea the differences between the clay model and the model S.

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[qwk]

Amazing looking so far.

[doug]

I assume you mean video image (not digital) compression or squeeze. Aspect ratio is just the height to width ratio of the frame. If the image was distorted the round wheels would clearly show any deformation
Yeah, that's what I meant. I was specifically looking at the wheels which do look basically round, though the tires look a lot thicker on the inside than on the outside.

Anyhow, looks good and a logical direction to go, though I'm sure we're a ways off from learning much more. Looks like a shorter wheel base so maybe a smaller battery pack. Perhaps 12 or 14 modules instead of the 16 in the Model S.

[Kevin Harney]

In looking at the overlays I would say it is more likely a Model S coupe than a Bluestar. Just too big. Maybe more like a BMW 6 than a 3.

[Iz]

Model S younger sibling. :tongue:

[dpeilow]

In looking at the overlays I would say it is more likely a Model S coupe than a Bluestar. Just too big. Maybe more like a BMW 6 than a 3.

You don't know that the scale is the same.

[ElSupreme]

You don't know that the scale is the same.

Exactly I wouldn't expect those wheels to be 21" behemoths.

Maybe looking at the bolt circles is a good measure of scale.

[Rifleman]

When I overlayed the two pictures, I used the wheels as the scale item (made them both the same size) If the clay model's wheels are smaller than 21's, the scale will be off (this was a 30 second hack job)

[vfx]

In looking at the overlays I would say it is more likely a Model S coupe than a Bluestar. Just too big. Maybe more like a BMW 6 than a 3.

A better guess. Tesla has hinted that there will be one more car on the S platform before the Bluestar platform is made.

This might be it.

[Robert.Boston]

Wheels are only 9 spokes, compared to 10 on the Model S. They look smaller, too, based on the bolt spacing from the hub.

[ETM]

It seem very unlikely that Tesla would be this careless with leaking photos or info... we've only seen one teaser of the model x and they've been very clear about their confidentiality policy with their workers. Bluestar is probably still close to a paper napkin drawing right now since it's to debut in about 2015. even if it is a coupe, that is probably 2 or 3 years away. this video is also over a year old... something to think about...

[TEG]

Wheels are only 9 spokes, compared to 10 on the Model S. They look smaller, too, based on the bolt spacing from the hub.

The Alpha/Beta Model S seem to have 10 spoke wheels, but the original concept cars had 9 spoke versions like on that clay model...
http://www.automobilesreview.com/img/tesla-model-s/slides/tesla-model-s-10.jpg

[ETM]

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3833&d=1326115113

?? 9 spokes...

[stopcrazypp]

Here's a quick overlay using photoshop (using the wheel size as reference, and fixing the horizontal perspective distortion as best as possible, the vertical perspective is still wrong; third pic is just for the heck of it):
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My opinion is this is likely a false alarm. The wheel base is the same. The greenhouse is the same. The only difference I can tell is the front and back looks a lot shorter and I'm pretty sure that's from the perspective (at that angle, the curves of the car might make it look shorter).

I know from certain angles the original prototype's front end and back end can seem to "disappear" (although not both at the same time usually). The production version doesn't really do that anymore because it doesn't have the same extreme tapering at the ends (likely for crash safety reasons).

[vfx]

Nice w SCPP
Shows it could be a two door. So where in the timeline is it? If new it would speak to a new car, If old then it's an early S. Would have to be pretty old though..

If it's the in-between car (Model Z) then it's an answer for the "it's too big" crowd.

[AnOutsider]

If the video is a year and change old, probably not much to see here, though, if they're going to launch a model per year, we'll probably see the next model after X around this time next year.

[doug]

It's probably just one of many design studies based on the Model S platform.

[Fr23shjive]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6E69E6LIKg&feature=player_embedded

Here's a video of the Model S' clay model. Pretty big difference.

[stopcrazypp]

Here's a video of the Model S' clay model. Pretty big difference.
Like AnOutsider pointed out, the recruitment video is a bit older than a year. The video on youtube is very recent (notice it already has the Model S "alpha" exterior design, which became public only in the middle of last year).

I doubt Tesla was working on the Bluestar, or a Model S coupe a year ago.

[suxxer]

I doubt Tesla was working on the Bluestar, or a Model S coupe a year ago.

One year ago they had already fixed Model S designs. I't's way more likely they were working on Model X one year ago - or even on this mysterious clay model.

[suxxer]

One year ago they had already fixed Model S designs. I't's way more likely they were working on Model X one year ago - or even on this mysterious clay model.

A little more shopped'

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4076&d=1328709827

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[action7981]

Here's hoping for Model S Coupe with 'falcon' doors!! Easy access to rear seats!

[WarpedOne]

It looks like a study of 2+2 two-door coupe that will come after model X
Nice. Me like.

[VolkerP]

I don't see anyone paying >$50k for this kind of chopped car. Even if it is a Coupe. Sorry.
The lines just don't tell a story of "premium class coupe".

[WarpedOne]

50k is for Model S
This would be 40k. A bit less batteries and other materials.

[AnOutsider]

The Model S and Model X stake that middle ground. O'Connell says more middle models may follow on the same chassis — "a vehicle that's smaller, maybe in the class of the BMW 3 Series (base prices around $35,000), we can achieve that, so maybe a small crossover SUV off that platform."

From: Tesla Motors Unveils Model X Thursday, But Is Its Future As Electric Tech Supplier? TSLA - Investors.com
(http://news.investors.com/Article/600566/201202081933/tesla-motors-partners-with-toyota-daimler.htm)

So very possible we see a cope on the S chassis methinks.

[vfx]

From: Tesla Motors Unveils Model X Thursday, But Is Its Future As Electric Tech Supplier? TSLA - Investors.com
(http://news.investors.com/Article/600566/201202081933/tesla-motors-partners-with-toyota-daimler.htm)

So very possible we see a cope on the S chassis methinks.

So beside the X there MAY BE more cars and one of them might be the Bluestar?

[vfx]

^^^^


The auto industry has had a rough go, and startups face an especially uphill climb. In that Super Bowl ad rousing a future for U.S. carmakers, Clint Eastwood said, albeit on behalf of Chrysler: "This country can't be knocked out with one punch. We get right back up again and when we do, the world is going to hear the roar of our engines."Still unclear is whether that'll overwhelmingly stay the roar of internal combustion engines ... vs. much silent rev of electrics.

Nice to see this :)

[Kevin Harney]

I don't see anyone paying >$50k for this kind of chopped car. Even if it is a Coupe. Sorry.
The lines just don't tell a story of "premium class coupe".

People pay 50K for a BMW 3 series all the time what makes you think this will be different ?

[VolkerP]

Tesla cars based off the Model S "Skateboard" platform are just too expensive to not play in the "premium" league. Tesla will refine the Bluestar/Gen III platform to explore cost benefits that are not accessible for any Skateboard car, be it S, X, or the Coupe.
BMW mass produces all 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 series. They are at a point where Tesla is not with their model palette.

[JRP3]

Seems as if it would be a smart move to leverage their existing skateboard technology as much as possible, for Bluestar and other models.

[stopcrazypp]

http://img.tapatalk.com/402fa499-a2e7-cf52.jpg

This may be what everyone thought was the bluestar clay model

http://img.tapatalk.com/402fa499-a325-70e8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/402fa499-a33b-0ac4.jpg


---
I am here: Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.921294,-118.330773)
To put this thing to rest, I think AnOutsider nailed it. The Model X clay model shown here is likely what everyone thought was the "BlueStar" or S coupe. I guess no one expect the Model X to be so similar to the Model S.

[stopcrazypp]

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And to REALLY put this thing to rest, there's a photoshop overlay of the Model X prototype on the clay model. Comparing to my previous overlays, it looks like the X's front and rear overhangs are much shorter than the Model S, assuming the wheelbase is still the same.

Side point: if we found this out a year ago, we would have had a year early scoop of the Model X!

[Norbert]

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And to REALLY put this thing to rest, there's a photoshop overlay of the Model X prototype on the clay model. Comparing to my previous overlays, it looks like the X's front and rear overhangs are much shorter than the Model S, assuming the wheelbase is still the same.

Side point: if we found this out a year ago, we would have had a year early scoop of the Model X!

Now I know why I didn't feel like posting in this thread. ;)

The Model X wheelbase is longer, I think about 4+ inches, if that allows you to estimate the length compared to the Model S.

[grisnjam]

To put this thing to rest, I think AnOutsider nailed it. The Model X clay model shown here is likely what everyone thought was the "BlueStar" or S coupe. I guess no one expect the Model X to be so similar to the Model S.

That and assuming the same wheel base tended to undersize the X. The X has a 4 inches longer wheel base then the S.

[WhiteKnight]

So Model X has been hiding in plain sight for over a year now.

That reminds me of that picture of a clay Model X that was taken from another Tesla video by someone on this forum that was then picked up and used by Autoblog.

So they had the clay 18 months ago. That probably means Franz and team will start working on BlueStar very shortly if they have not already.

[doug]

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4058&d=1328643564
http://image.motortrend.com/f/40169583+w1500+ar1+st0/tesla-model-X-prototype-left-side-view.jpg

So I guess that clay model was at reduced scale given the size of the people behind it. Still there seem to be some minor differences, and I do think this shape (at the appropriate scale) would be fine for a coupe.

I'm going to change the title of this thread.

[stopcrazypp]

So I guess that clay model was at reduced scale give the size of the people behind it. Still there seem to be some minor differences, and I do think this shape (at the appropriate scale) would be fine for a coupe.

I'm going to change the title of this thread.

The differences are mostly in the greenhouse (the clay model's is not as tall). Although that may be from the perspective (the clay model is seen from mostly top down, the profile pictures for the Model X is seen either from the middle or slightly below). There's some details missing on the side in that clay model picture also (which are present in the clay model picture from AnOutsider).

The other major differences is the a-pillar is a lot farther back in the clay model (basically exactly in the same position as the Model S), and the d-pillar is more forward (again like the Model S).

The clay model is basically a Model X with a Model S greenhouse or a Model S with Model X front and rear ends.

But the picture of the prototype they demonstrated fits perfectly in the horizontal dimensions (in terms of wheelbase, wheel size, and overhang size).

[JRP3]

Front overhang of the clay seems a tad shorter.

[stopcrazypp]

Front overhang of the clay seems a tad shorter.
That's from the perspective. The clay model is seen from slightly rear-to-front. The profile picture shown for the Model X is dead in the middle (perhaps even slightly front-to-rear).

If you look at the original picture of the demonstration prototype that I used for the my overlay (seen from almost exactly the same angle horizontally), the front/rear overhang and wheelbase is proportional:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4058&d=1328643564
http://image.motortrend.com/f/36539104+w786+ar1/Tesla-Model-X-Side-Exterior-Gullwing-Open.jpg

[vfx]

I don't buy it. The clay does not resemble the X. Especially if you look at all the design sketches of the X. Why would they clay up a low greenhouse when the drawings clearly show it with a SUV rear end?

[ElSupreme]

I don't buy it. The clay does not resemble the X. Especially if you look at all the design sketches of the X. Why would they clay up a low greenhouse when the drawings clearly show it with a SUV rear end?

Yeah I think that is a clay model of something other than the X. At first it looks right, but look at the angle of roofline going into the tailgate. It is way off. The clay model could never have handled 7 people.

[stopcrazypp]

I don't buy it. The clay does not resemble the X. Especially if you look at all the design sketches of the X. Why would they clay up a low greenhouse when the drawings clearly show it with a SUV rear end?


Yeah I think that is a clay model of something other than the X. At first it looks right, but look at the angle of roofline going into the tailgate. It is way off. The clay model could never have handled 7 people.

Look at my previous overlay. The bottom portion fits perfectly. I don't think that is just coincidence.

The greenhouse however is different (compare the distance between the a-pillar and the front wheels; it's exactly the same as a Model S if you look at my previous overlays, clearly different from the Model X). The rear of the greenhouse is also slightly different (it's further back on the X).

Assuming it's the X, I would think that is a Model X in the intermittent stages (they started with the Model S and then modified it to the X we see today). Remember, the purpose of a clay model is to be able to freely rework the design (you can easily add and subtract to the shape). It is by no means just a final 3d visualization of the design.

I'll try overlaying this picture later (the vertical perspective is a bit closer to the clay's, although horizontal is way off; you can see the hood in both cases):
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/tesla/model-x/ns/tesla_model-x_prf_ns_21012_815.jpg

[vfx]

Look at my previous overlay. The bottom portion fits perfectly. I don't think that is just coincidence.

Remember the wheelbase difference.

[dpeilow]

I'm with vfx and elsupreme on this. The clay is a car, not any kind of SUV/CUV.

[JRP3]

That's from the perspective. The clay model is seen from slightly rear-to-front. The profile picture shown for the Model X is dead in the middle (perhaps even slightly front-to-rear).


The front over hang in this picture of the X is longer than what was unveiled.
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[bonnie1194]

The front over hang in this picture of the X is longer than what was unveiled.
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Great catch. The website photo looks better, I'm hoping that's the production design.

The back looks slightly longer, too. I wonder if they were working off an S platform for the first prototypes.

[rabar10]

The front over hang in this picture of the X is longer than what was unveiled.
+1 nice catch! The rear overhang is also longer in the top pic, though it's not nearly as obvious.

[Bearman]

The front over hang in this picture of the X is longer than what was unveiled.


That might be an optical illusion because of different focal length lenses used on the camera, a telephoto lens will compress the perspective of the image and make it look flat whereas a wide angle lens will distort proportions.
The last picture seems to be taken with a wide angle lens at a slight angle and at closer distance than the first picture which looks like a perfectly perpendicular telephoto shot taken at a longer distance. However i have not seen the car in real life so others might be able to reveal if the car was any different than the one on the first picture.

Example:

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[JRP3]

I actually prefer the shorter version myself, looks stockier, more SUV like.

[WhiteKnight]

That might be an optical illusion because of different focal length lenses used on the camera, a telephoto lens will compress the perspective of the image and make it look flat whereas a wide angle lens will distort proportions.

I think you are right. In fact there's a decent chance that the clay model is a Model S with this "optical illusion" happening.

By the way, Bearman is this a picture of your girlfriend?

[Bearman]

By the way, Bearman is this a picture of your girlfriend?

I'm afraid not :)

[JRP3]

I think you are correct, lens distortion. Looks longer in this photo
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[vfx]

We were there that night. Assuming the were in the street the distance from the K-rails to that release car is about 10 to 12 feet. You would nee a really wide lens to get several feet of air in front and back of the car as shown.

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This is a super wide lens that shortens the front as well.

[doug]

Well I think it's worth going back to this sneaky looking image from the design studio:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3282&d=1320198035

We previously assumed that clay model in the center was the Model S, but now I suppose it might a version of the X. What seems more likely, though, is that model on the right wrapped in black is not the X (now that we've seen it), and is probably something else (maybe the van?).

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3283&d=1328965826

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1022/4724320936_c28b90c17e_o.jpg

[vfx]

I think the van is a no brainer.


http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4252&stc=14252

From all reports this thing is a dog.

This should be Tesla's next car.

Go for the sales. Not the glamour.

[brianman]

@Doug - I think I see Bigfoot in the corner with a rifle. ;)

[doug]

I agree a delivery van is a good way to go, but I'd lose the frunk and push the drivers seat over the front wheels to increase the usable cargo space (kinda like a VW bus). It might hurt the CdA, but that shouldn't matter so much for a neighborhood delivery van anyhow.

[Doug_G]

I don't buy it. The clay does not resemble the X. Especially if you look at all the design sketches of the X. Why would they clay up a low greenhouse when the drawings clearly show it with a SUV rear end?

I do buy it. It's probably an early iteration that was later refined into what we see today.

[JRP3]

A delivery van doesn't really fit with Tesla's image, and the X with the two rows of rear seats removed could do similar duty. Plus fleet van sales aren't going to pay top dollar for the luxury of a Tesla, so they won't get the premium profit margins.

[bonnie1194]

We must amuse Tesla to no end.

:)

[vfx]

A delivery van doesn't really fit with Tesla's image, and the X with the two rows of rear seats removed could do similar duty. Plus fleet van sales aren't going to pay top dollar for the luxury of a Tesla, so they won't get the premium profit margins.

A stripped down version might work pricing wise. It's about selling cars.

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[ElSupreme]

A stripped down version might work pricing wise. It's about selling cars.

Exactly! It's about selling cars.

I was more thinking this though...

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[Bearman]

I like the delivery van idea alot. They could make one for sure but maybe someone else could buy their powertrain and design the vehicle around it.
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Toyota HiAce
Length (mm)5380
- Width (mm)1880 (Model S is 1963.42 mm)
- Height (mm)2285
- Wheelbase (mm)3110 (Model S is 2959.1 mm)

Cargo area dimensions
- Cargo area length (mm)3470
- Cargo area width (mm)1730
- Cargo area width between wheelarches (mm)1295
- Cargo area height (mm)1635
- Cargo area loadspace volume (L)9800

Power
- Maximum power kW 100
- Rpm for maximum power 3400
- Maximum torque Nm 300
- Rpm for maximum torque 1200

- Fuel consumption - combined (L/100km) 9.2 = 25mpg

[JRP3]

Looking at those specs confirmed another suspicion of mine, that the Tesla power train is way over powered for such a vehicle. If companies won't pay a premium for performance they don't need in a delivery van then Tesla would have to design a completely different system. Maybe they are planning that anyway for the Bluestar.

[Bearman]

Looking at those specs confirmed another suspicion of mine, that the Tesla power train is way over powered for such a vehicle. If companies won't pay a premium for performance they don't need in a delivery van then Tesla would have to design a completely different system. Maybe they are planning that anyway for the Bluestar.
Sounds right.

[dpeilow]

I was thinking Mercedes might buy it but they just badge engineered the Kangoo.

Vans do get subsidies though.

[doug]

I like the delivery van idea alot. They could make one for sure but maybe someone else could buy their powertrain and design the vehicle around it.
Not sure about a full drivetrain, but Tesla supposedly already supplied batteries for an electric van:
An Electric Delivery Van with Some Tesla DNA : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/cars/an-electric-delivery-van-with-some-tesla-dna.html)
http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/electric-van-tesla-photo.jpg

[Bearman]

Nice, thanks Doug.