Tesla DC charging network [Archive] - Tesla Motors Club

Lloyd

10-08-2011, 07:09 AM

This is important so I cross posted this from the other thread. If the DC network is not sufficient we need additional higher amperage EVSE's, and owners will need to order the optional additional 10 kw onboard charger.

The problem will be as I have shown in other threads, that nobody will produce a higher power EVSE'S if there are not cars that will accept them. In my letters to Eaton, it was apparent that they had at least some prior knowledge to stop their planned production of 70 amp EVSE'S . The only manufacturer of high power level2 EVSE'S is Clipper Creek.

Expansion of the 70 amp EVSE'S will require;
1. People to order cars that require or can utilize their potential (optional additional 10kw charger)
2. Manufacturers to produce and deploy high power level2 EVSE'S
3. The DCPower level3 charging network to not be deployed adequately
4 Owners to drive their cars farther than their home charging range

I believe that Tesla is looking at the level3 network as an income stream. I don't expect level 3charging to be free!

richkae

10-08-2011, 10:45 AM

In the other thread I said that Tesla needs to needs to find hosts for their charging locations.
The goal of that is not to make those people foot the bill for installation, the goal for that is so that Tesla doesn't have to own, lease or manage the property with the chargers on it.
( Getting the host to pay for some or all of the installation would be a bonus )

I believe the locations that provide the most benefit are between major cities.
I think ideal locations are restaurants, casinos, outlet malls, hotels, golf courses, small tourist towns or other tourist traps.
Of course they need ample parking and a location that can provide a valet ( like a hotel or a casino ) is optimal because then the valet could shuffle multiple cars through the charger if there is contention.
You are going to have to stop for 30-60 minutes, and they will want to capture money from you while you do.

It does not seem like a hard sell to me. I would think that locations like casinos could be easily enticed into footing some of the cost.

Kevin Sharpe

10-08-2011, 10:59 AM

It does not seem like a hard sell to me. I would think that locations like casinos could be easily enticed into footing some of the cost.The only way this will work is if Tesla can demonstrate a steady stream of drivers who are prepared to use (and pay for?) the Charger. IMO Tesla will struggle to deliver a steady stream of drivers because the numbers of cars on the road will be small for many years.

If however Tesla can combine this service with support for mainstream cars using CHAdeMO then it's a completely different proposition IMO.

WhiteKnight

10-08-2011, 11:12 AM

A friend of mine who was high up with one of the railroads pointed out to me that the maximum range of a railroad engines back in the day used to be about 150 miles and therefore when you look there's a significant city typically every 150 miles or so (these cities sprang up around the railroad depots). So from Atlanta there is a ring of cities all about 150 miles from us: Chattanooga, TN / Greenville, SC / Augusta, GA / Macon, GA / Montgomery, AL / Birmingham, AL. For Tesla, locating their DC Charging in these cities would make a lot of sense. And then 150 miles beyond these cities you're going to find more major cities like Nashville, TN / Charlotte, NC et cetera where they will eventually have their own stores.

I expect a Tesla Store everywhere there's an Apple Store (major cities). And I expect eventually there will be charging infrastructure (Tesla's own or other outfits) everywhere there's a Starbucks (mid-major cities).

Eberhard

10-08-2011, 12:49 PM

on my meeting with tesla , i tried a further discussion about the need for 3-ph in Europe. JB Straubel mentioned the importance of high level fast DC charging and they will setup of fast DC charger to wipe out the need for charing with more than 10kW even in Europe. Because more then 95% of all charging will be done at home or office, only little extra charging will be needed on long distance travel. The smallest range is 160m. I think they start with 300miles between each nodes and will expand it to 150miles later. Because of using same mass-producted 10kW onboard charger the cost of the 90kW DC fast charger is much lower as any other. Hope only Tesla makes the new DC charging network available to the current Tesla Owner too. 80% SOC in 30-45min cool.

Norbert

10-08-2011, 01:01 PM

Norbert

10-08-2011, 01:09 PM

William13

10-08-2011, 01:42 PM

VolkerP

10-08-2011, 02:15 PM

Will,

Eberhard already brought up that idea. This will end somewhere near 50kg ~100lbs (3x charger a 15kg in a casing plus some cabling and plugs). Too heavy to lug around in the trunk/frunk and too expensive to leave it outside the car for ~3hours (remember any Tesla key fob will unlock the plug from the charge port).
The idea with modular 10kw chargers is all nice, but for 3 phase DC charger to be portable we need a more refined design. I'm afraid such a device will end up with extra cost, late availability, limited numbers, and poor support from Tesla.

Kevin Sharpe

10-08-2011, 03:07 PM

on my meeting with tesla , i tried a further discussion about the need for 3-ph in Europe.With respect you seem to have backed away completely from your demand for 3-Phase support on the Model S. Am I wrong or have you accepted that Tesla will never support 3-Phase and we have to accept the proprietary DC Charging system?

Kevin Sharpe

10-08-2011, 03:10 PM

Welcome to the future!are you being sarcastic or do you really believe that Tesla can deploy a usable proprietary Fast Charge network across Europe?

Lloyd

10-08-2011, 04:17 PM

Another thought not brought up: I wonder how owners and Tesla will feel when owners of other cars (Nissan, BMW, etc) design a workable adapter for the Tesla DC charging system?

Norbert

10-08-2011, 09:36 PM

are you being sarcastic or do you really believe that Tesla can deploy a usable proprietary Fast Charge network across Europe?

Did I leave any doubts? Perhaps they will start with installing fast chargers only after they start selling Model S in each country, but yes, they will start with the most important routes, and then add more coverage as they sell more Model S. Why would they not?

Kevin Sharpe

10-09-2011, 03:39 AM

Why would they not?It took more than 2 years of voluntary effort by Tesla owners and enthusiasts to get the HPC network deployed in the UK - the first national network anywhere in the world. Even today it has some gaps that Tesla have been unable to fill, indeed we see no indication that the network will expand unless we do it ourselves. IMO Tesla have no idea what it takes to deploy infrastructure.

In contrast, Nissan and other groups are deploying CHAdeMO in increasing numbers and with the new low cost hardware that will become more attractive to many potential host sites.

TEG

10-09-2011, 08:14 AM

Another thought not brought up: I wonder how owners and Tesla will feel when owners of other cars (Nissan, BMW, etc) design a workable adapter for the Tesla DC charging system?

Has anyone ever seen a non Tesla vehicle charging from an unmodified Tesla HPC ? Even though the pinout and signalling are known and basically standard, they didn't make it easy for others to get the socket to plug into those EVSEs so it was basically a "Tesla only" offering. Will they do the same thing with the new equipment? For instance, keep others from getting sockets for their new type of connection? If history is a roadmap, it seems they might try to keep it proprietary and for Tesla cars only. But time will tell.

GSP

10-09-2011, 10:14 AM

I hope Tesla does not keep their DC charging network proprietary. It is difficult to justify reserving parking for EVs only. It will be an even harder sell to set aside valuable parking for Teslas only. Getting property owners to agree to this likely will be an issue.

Non-proprietary charging stations that all EVs and PHEVs can use is the future.

GSP

Eberhard

10-09-2011, 10:33 AM

tomsax

10-09-2011, 01:02 PM

Luckily, 100 chargers at $20,000 each is only $2 million. They need willing hosts to shoulder the costs of individual installations.

It's finding hosts that are both willing and capable of hosting 90 kW charging that is the hard part. Compared to that, the equipment cost is trivial.

ECOtality is two years into trying to build fast charging infrastructure with a federal grant that makes the equipment free and subsidizes the install costs. Even with that, they still have not planted a single station yet. In addition to finding a willing host that has parking they can reserve for infrequent use and power to spare (or the willingness to upgrade), there are lots of zoning issues, both for electrical and road use issues, plus demand charges that can make electricity more expensive than gasoline.

My advice: dream about Tesla's fast charge network, but buy the full 20 kW on-board charger and be ready to contribute to community-funded Level 2 infrastructure.

Lloyd

10-09-2011, 01:23 PM

I would be willing to host a 90 KW charging slot and/or HPC at my office in San Luis Obispo. We have 1200 amp three phase 480 service. Perfect distance between Los angeles and San Francisco. At ~ $10 per charge in electrons for the model S, I would like to be compansated for my electricity bill. Where do I sign up??

Eberhard

10-09-2011, 01:26 PM

With respect you seem to have backed away completely from your demand for 3-Phase support on the Model S. Am I wrong or have you accepted that Tesla will never support 3-Phase and we have to accept the proprietary DC Charging system?
my fist goal is the most quickest charge. the availability of 3-ph in europe is huge. DC charging of 90kW or more are rare to not available. 22kW 3-ph is great, 44kW even better, but what will the weight of an 125A 400V 3-ph onboard charger? the most light weight 22kW charger i know is the 22kW NG6 from brusa, liquid cooled with 12kg, for 88kW this would be at least 50kg. if i cannot get 3-ph but get 90kW DC charging for my long distance trips - good but not the best for me.

Norbert

10-09-2011, 01:56 PM

Kevin Sharpe

10-09-2011, 02:27 PM

My advice: dream about Tesla's fast charge network, but buy the full 20 kW on-board charger and be ready to contribute to community-funded Level 2 infrastructure.that's sound advice :smile:

Norbert

10-09-2011, 02:44 PM

Eberhard, could Tesla leave the inboard charger out of European cars and string together three of their 10 kW chargers for a portable slow DC charger to take advantage of European 3phase with minimal change in total cost and improved functionality?

If not for a mobile charger, then at least it should be possible for stationary chargers: phase-balanced versions could be 30 kW, 60 kW, and 90 kW. With a maximum imbalance of 10 kW, any 10 k increment should be possible: 20 kW, 30 kW, 40 kW, ..., 80 kW, 90 kW.

This would allow adjusting in cost and to available power.

drees

10-09-2011, 03:43 PM

ECOtality is two years into trying to build fast charging infrastructure with a federal grant that makes the equipment free and subsidizes the install costs. Even with that, they still have not planted a single station yet.
I think a large part of this is that Blink's CHAdeMO charger only recently got UL approval. Or at least I hope!

http://www.ecotality.com/pressreleases/20111004_Blink_DC_Fast_Charger_UL_Certification.pdf

IMO, Blink's designs are way over the top. I can't imagine what they cost. They should be KISS!

Odenator

10-09-2011, 05:07 PM

If the Tesla Fast Charge Network actually comes to fruition, I would like to see either Tesla or another 3rd party come out with a J1772 adapter for the Volt and Leaf. That might prevent the the kind of BetaMax vs VHS format war and allow the superior format to actually win this time.

TEG

10-09-2011, 08:42 PM

LEAF owners would probably prefer if they could get CHAdeMO for DC fast charge.
LEAF fast charge is 15x faster then their AC charge because they have a wimpy onboard AC charger.
But DC fast charging has a lot more handshake than just the simple control signals of AC charging. So an adapter between CHAdeMO and Tesla (either way) would need some real intelligence inside.

vfx

10-09-2011, 10:27 PM

Has anyone ever seen a non Tesla vehicle charging from an unmodified Tesla HPC ? ...
I think Stefano made one for his Mini.

tomsax

10-09-2011, 10:34 PM

Has anyone ever seen a non Tesla vehicle charging from an unmodified Tesla HPC?

Stephen Johnsen made an adapter for his conversion EV, and I believe he has used it. The problem is the expense of buying a Tesla inlet. You have to REALLY want to use Tesla charging station to spend over $700 for just the inlet.

TEG

10-09-2011, 11:26 PM

OK, thanks guy, so at least a couple have done it.

Eberhard

10-10-2011, 01:35 AM

It's finding hosts that are both willing and capable of hosting 90 kW charging that is the hard part. Compared to that, the equipment cost is trivial.

ECOtality is two years into trying to build fast charging infrastructure with a federal grant that makes the equipment free and subsidizes the install costs. Even with that, they still have not planted a single station yet. In addition to finding a willing host that has parking they can reserve for infrequent use and power to spare (or the willingness to upgrade), there are lots of zoning issues, both for electrical and road use issues, plus demand charges that can make electricity more expensive than gasoline.

My advice: dream about Tesla's fast charge network, but buy the full 20 kW on-board charger and be ready to contribute to community-funded Level 2 infrastructure.

the 20kW onboard charger does not work in Europe because of lack of 3-ph rectifier. But i can replace the onboard 10kw charger by the 22kW 3-ph BRUSA NLG6 charger or use it as an external unit and then charge over the DC interface.

Kevin Sharpe

10-10-2011, 01:59 AM

But i can replace the onboard 10kw charger by the 22kW 3-ph BRUSA NLG6 chargerhave you been told that this will be supported by Tesla and will have no impact on warranty?

widodh

10-10-2011, 02:08 AM

I honestly don't see a Tesla only DC charging network work. If it's limited to only Tesla Model S's charging there it simply won't work. Nobody is going to give up parking space nor infrastructure for that occasional Model S who might come by.

Covering the whole of Europe? No way! A long the major auto routes, it might. But what if my journey doesn't take me there? The CHaDemo chargers are being planted throughout Europe. Like Kevin Sharpe already posted in another thread, some restaurants are starting the place them at their places so a visiting Leaf or other CHaDemo capable car can charge while the driver is grabbing lunch/dinner.

Do we always need 90kW? No, I guess not. Is it cool to charge with 90kW when possible? Sure! Max power when possible.

I do a lot of travelling through Europe. I play paintball as a sport and go to tournaments everywhere, France, Germany, Belgium, the UK, Poland and ofcourse in the Netherlands. In the last few months I've been thinking: Could I have don this with my Model S? For most trips the answer is: Yes. But then I was still assuming 3-phase support would be available for the Model S.

This weekend I had a trip to to Northern part of Holland, 380km from my home. Do-able with the Model S. Because of the long trip I stayed at a friend of mine who leaves there and lives on a farm. Check, 3-phase 16A available. 11kW of power, enough to give me a overnight charge. I arrived on Saturday around 18:00, we had dinner, drunk some beers (Talked about the Model S) and I left again at 07:00 on Sunday morning.

On Sunday I was at the paintball field until 18:00. It was at a bungalow park. Ah, check, 3-phase 32A on the wall there! 22kW of power for me :)

That's how I've been doing my trips and discovering lately, just looking for those charge opportunities while I'm still driving a Hybrid/ICE.

To get back to the DC charging, as long as it is Tesla only and there is no way for other cars (without a completely new charger) to charge there, I think it's doomed and won't come off the ground.

CHaDemo is beginning to get traction right now and that's good. Like I said, 90kW is cool, but 50kW as well. Even some McDonald’s (which are franchise here) are starting to put CHaDemo chargers at their restaurants. Being there for let's say 20 min or 30 min would give you a extra 15 to 25 kWh, enough for somewhere between 80 and 100km!

Here again, the Tesla DC network (if it gets of the ground) should be open to other cars and not just with: "Sure, other cars can charge here, as long as they support OUR 'standard'", but vise versa, a Model S should be able to use the existing CHaDemo chargers.

It's re-inventing the wheel again, thinking they can do everything better than the rest and need no help from existing infrastructure.

AC (and here I go again!) 3-phase is everywhere, that is sufficient for 90% of the charging. I don't see the DC being used that much, other than the trip where you have to do 700km on one day.

The "95% of charging is done at home, so we don't need high power AC" is rubbish! Tom Sax made a great post about this: What charge port connector? (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5712-What-charge-port-connector?p=86342&viewfull=1#post86342)

To conclude it once more: I seriously doubt if Tesla can get this up and running. I don't think so. A few chargers, probably. Covering Europe? No way.

Kevin Sharpe

10-10-2011, 02:28 AM

To conclude it once more: I seriously doubt if Tesla can get this up and running. I don't think so. A few chargers, probably. Covering Europe? No way.I suspect that Tesla has no understanding of the requirements of EV charging outside of the US. Without 3-Phase support I can't take the Model S into Mainland Europe, and even in the UK will be limited to the 70A HPC and 63A "mennekes" sites if I want to undertake same day journeys of 200+ miles assuming the car is fully loaded...

Eberhard

10-10-2011, 05:22 AM

have you been told that this will be supported by Tesla and will have no impact on warranty?
JB Straubel told my, that i can connect any compatible DC-Charger on the DC Interface?

vfx

10-10-2011, 05:38 AM

...
It's re-inventing the wheel again, thinking they can do everything better than the rest and need no help from existing infrastructure.....

Does it play flash?

Alfred

10-10-2011, 06:04 AM

I suspect that Tesla has no understanding of the requirements of EV charging outside of the US. Without 3-Phase support I can't take the Model S into Mainland Europe, and even in the UK will be limited to the 70A HPC and 63A "mennekes" sites if I want to undertake same day journeys of 200+ miles assuming the car is fully loaded...
Agreed. Single phase AC support limits the charge rate in much of Europe to a maximum of 7 kW (32x230V). In many homes even that single phase rate may not be very widely installable - at least not without costly connection upgrades down to the road. Very often there may be just room for an additional 3x16A (11kW) connector. Converting that to a single phase at say 40A is possible, but is again expensive. Cars with on-board tri-phasic support will be at an advantage already for home charging (as planned by Renault).
3058

Kevin Sharpe

10-10-2011, 06:06 AM

JB Straubel told my, that i can connect any compatible DC-Charger on the DC Interface?presumably that means compatible with the Tesla proprietary DC Interface... so in reality that means that the BRUSA NLG6 charger must be re-engineered to support the Model S

widodh

10-11-2011, 06:49 AM

presumably that means compatible with the Tesla proprietary DC Interface... so in reality that means that the BRUSA NLG6 charger must be re-engineered to support the Model SThere you get to the point that BRUSA might ask Tesla for some details, which might be hard to get.

3072

That is the BRUSA NLG6 charger which should support 22kW 3-phase and output DC. It could be cool in the Model S, but where do you insert the 3-phase into the car? :) Which inlet? And what is going to do the EVSE talking to the charging station. A lot of questions and not so many answers at this point.

I've been giving the Tesla DC network some more thinking, but I really don't see how they are going to pay for that. 90kW of power, the monthly / yearly fee for just the power connection is HUGE! I'm paying EUR 1100,00 a year for just 3x40A.. 90kW is 3x130A, you are looking at fees of about EUR 1100,00 per month without even taking one kWh from that connection.

50kW is the scale for "low end users", but >50kW is expensive. I don't see that working for a DC network only dedicated to a Model S.

Norbert

10-11-2011, 07:29 AM

I've been giving the Tesla DC network some more thinking, but I really don't see how they are going to pay for that. 90kW of power, the monthly / yearly fee for just the power connection is HUGE!

That, however, has nothing to do with Tesla's new charging connector. It would be the same if it were using the Mennekes DC combo plug instead, which is being designed for >70 kW (but still far away from being a finished standard), meaning that european car manufacturers also plan, in the future, to support >70 kW.

widodh

10-11-2011, 07:50 AM

That, however, has nothing to do with Tesla's new charging connector. It would be the same if it were using the Mennekes DC combo plug instead, which is being designed for >70 kW (but still far away from being a finished standard), meaning that european car manufacturers also plan, in the future, to support >70 kW.True, but if Tesla wants to roll out a 90kW network on their own they are going to pay for it.

It could also be one of the reasons why the CHAdeMO chargers are also limited to 50kW?

jcstp

10-11-2011, 09:34 AM

AndrewBissell

10-11-2011, 09:42 AM

I think a lot of this debate boils down to this:

We all probably think Tesla is an amazing car company - in fact THE amazing EV company.

But where there is fundamental tension is on whether Tesla is or can be a great EV charging infrastructure company.

Experience by myself, Kevin Sharpe and David Peilow says that Tesla finds it quite hard to adjust to the compromise and negotiation required to engage with sites they don't control to persuade them to host chargers. The UK HPC network wouldn't exist without David's immense tenacity and persuasive powers. Tesla in the UK could not have done this.

I believe it would take a great culture change within Tesla to successfully engage with developing and rolling out a charging network. I think if they MUST do it to be successful that they CAN make this change. Whether they will is anyone's guess at present (despite anything they have said about intending to roll out DC charging networks - until they realise they can't do it with "business as usual" I think its a dream).

I won't be taking a risk on it this time. With the Roadster it was bought knowing the best it could do would be 70A/17kW charging, and that there was no network. I was prepared to engage with efforts to create one. We were fortunate to be able to. I now know I won't willingly travel often for long distances at 1 hour driving = 1 hour charging rates. And I will not just hope that Tesla is going to deliver a widespread DC fast charge network.

So I'll be waiting to buy a Model S until the DC fast charge network is substantially all in place in Europe (and the rollout of the rest is clearly on track and unstoppable). Or maybe by then I'll have bought something else with equal utility that has a network earlier. We'll see.

jcstp

10-11-2011, 09:53 AM

Only the future will tell what happens!

Anyhow, installing fast-charging makes lots more sense then all those charging-poles along the streets where your hair gets grey from waiting till the battery is full!

rolosrevenge

10-11-2011, 10:41 AM

I think that Tesla would be very foolish to not have their DC charging for the Model S accept CHAdeMO and have their chargers compatible with CHAdeMO cars. Sure, 90 kW is great, but to not take advantage of all of the 50 kW charging stations that are being propagated seriously impedes the functionality of the Model S. Not to mention, the Leafs and MiEVs will be numbering in the 50,000 - 100,000 per year output compared to 20,000 of the Model S. Tesla doesn't have the volume to try and dictate the standards.

TEG

10-11-2011, 11:09 AM

...I now know I won't willingly travel often for long distances at 1 hour driving = 1 hour charging rates...
From what I can tell, Tesla is now trying to promulgate the concept of charging times stated in miles-per-hour.
So their 90kW DC is "300 miles per hour charging" as it can fill a 300 mile range Model S (~90kW pack) in about an hour.

By the same token, HPC Roadster charging is approx 64 miles per hour charging (300*19.2/90).
I think that lines up with their quoted 3.5 hour charge time to get ~224 miles of range.
Further, that matches your statement of 1 hour charge for 1 hour driving, if you are driving around 64MPH...

30AMP J1772 charging would be 24 miles per hour charging (300*7.2/90).

drees

10-11-2011, 11:17 AM

From what I can tell, Tesla is now trying to promulgate the concept of charging times stated in miles-per-hour.
So their 90kW DC is "300 miles per hour charging" as it can fill a 300 mile range Model S (~90kW pack) in about an hour.
Right way to do it - since it's not often that one charges from an empty battery and requires a full charge all at once.

vfx

10-11-2011, 11:18 AM

from what i can tell, tesla is now trying to promulgate the concept of charging times stated in miles-per-hour.
So their 90kw dc is "300 miles per hour charging" as it can fill a 300 mile range model s (~90kw pack) in about an hour.....

mphc

mpc?

tomsax

10-11-2011, 12:15 PM

I just wonder why all this fuss!
In petrolstations you have diesel clean-diesel petrol95octane petrol98octane E85 biodiesel
So Chademo and tesla can easily live side by side I think!
They provide both electricity!
Making a high-current connection for one, only facilitates the instalation of the other!

do you see big trouble between the providers and users of the different oil-based energy?

There are two huge differences between oil-based fuel and electricity:

1. Oil is expensive compared to electricity used for transportation. Because oil is expensive, the cost of building a gas station can be recouped in profits. Still, the profit margins for gas station owners (at least in the US) is pretty small. Most of the profits go to the big oil companies and producers.

2. People don't have gas stations in their garages. Gas stations don't have to compete with the convenience of fueling at home, and can't be made obsolete by a network of car owners sharing their home gas pumps. 95% of our Roadster charging happens at home. For our local Roadster driving, and all of our RAV4-EV driving, it's 100%. (We'll see what happens with the LEAF, it's too early to tell. Our first three weeks, we did all of our charging in our garage with a 120V outlet.) Also, there's no such thing as a cheap gas station. Restaurants can't attract customers by putting in cheap gas pumps that slowly refuel your car while you eat dinner.

In the US, with an average of 21 MPG, figuring $4 per gallon, every car on the road driving 12,000 miles a year represents $2,285 in gross fuel revenue per year. An electric car getting 340 Wh per mile (wall-to-wheel) and paying the US average of 11 cents per kWh represents $450 in electricity costs per year, but most of that charging is done at home. Let's be generous and say that 20% of that is for road trips: that's $90 worth of electricity away from home per year.

How much will consumers be willing to pay for being able to conveniently drive beyond their single charge range? Level 2 stations are inexpensive and cheap to install, so they can be operated at low margins, or at a loss (free even) to attract customers. If you can get free or low-margin charging at 240V/70A while you eat a meal, or play at a park, or watch a movie, etc., how much would you be willing to pay to charge faster?

We have friends we've met through the Roadster community who just stop by our house when road tripping through the area so they can charge up for a couple of hours while we visit over a meal. When many of the people you know have charging stations in their garages, how much of your road-trip charging will turn into hanging out with friends and family?

At five times the cost of electricity, you break even compared to driving a 21-mpg gas burner (and still have to wait ten times as long to fast charge as pump gas). That's a ceiling of $450 per car per year, compared to $2,285 per gas car, and relies on some pretty optimistic assumptions. The true average annual expenditures for away-from-home charging would likely be much smaller. Meanwhile, fast charge stations get squeezed from below by demand charge rates for electricity that greatly increase the cost of electricity at high power levels.

Having multiple charging standards that require stations to install multiple sets of equipment is not likely to gain traction in what will ultimately be a very low-margin, low-volume business.

Norbert

10-11-2011, 02:02 PM

Let's be generous and say that 20% of that is for road trips:

I agree and think it will be less than 10%. However that only means that a charger can be shared by more cars. (Keep in mind that Tesla's goal is to sell mass-market cars.)

Having a standard that is specific to 90 kW-capable cars may even be an advantage since it means that the charger will not be occupied by cars charging at a lower rate, and therefor allow more turnover and a better return on the demand charges (assuming a certain use level which should be expected with mass-market cars).

neroden

10-16-2011, 11:47 PM

I have to agree that it will be a fairly small market.

...which is why the most important locations for a DC fast charging "network" are those which enable model S owners to take major intercity trips between really huge cities which are otherwise too far away. I worked out that Toledo, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia would enable NY-Chicago trips, as well as trips from an enormous number of other cities along the way to NY or Chicago. And these are trips long enough that level 2 charging requires an extra overnight, but level 3 doesn't, which will matter to a lot of people.

This has got to be worth it. The cost of building and maintaining three fast charging stations, to be able to advertise an immense corridor of accessibility by model S -- to enable the majority of business and weekend trips.

The only question is, can Tesla actually carry this out competently? So far their store strategy is not being carried out well in the US -- the stores / service centers themselves are fine, but they have been very bad at rolling out national coverage. I measured to make sure I was in driving distance of a Tesla store, and I am (barely), but if I were in Ohio, I'd probably decide that the service centers were just too far away -- the Ranger mileage charge starts to add up. I doubt anyone in Hawaii would buy a Tesla right now unless they really had money to burn, because the Ranger charge must be ludicrous.

EDIT: as a small thought, people have worried about conflict between different people trying to charge.

Well, for level 3 charging I'm fine with making reservations to charge! This is for trips of well over 300 miles (one way!), I'm going to have the whole thing scheduled and planned anyway.

VolkerP

10-17-2011, 01:19 AM

The Tesla Fast DC charger consists of 9 modular units each 10kW. The general assumption is that input is 3 phase AC, and one phase gets distributed to 3 units. With 1000 chargers planned for US "arterial" highways and ramp up of Model S production, that's 34,000 units to produce up to and including 2013.

Suggestion: Tesla should redesign the 10kW unit to take 3 phase input. This would allow to size the fast DC charger up and down in steps of 10kW instead of 30kW and solve the problem of slow home charging in countries with 3 phase AC.

tomsax

10-17-2011, 09:54 AM

Having a standard that is specific to 90 kW-capable cars may even be an advantage since it means that the charger will not be occupied by cars charging at a lower rate, and therefor allow more turnover and a better return on the demand charges (assuming a certain use level which should be expected with mass-market cars).

Demand is an easy problem to solve: build more stations and/or set a premium rate on the 90 kW chargers so that lower rate cars will prefer 50 kW stations. Lack of demand is a bigger problem. If Model S used the same connector as other cars, then Model S owners would get access to mass-market 50 kW stations while also driving installation of faster stations with more profitable billing models. Which is worse: occasionally waiting 25 minutes for a LEAF to charge or not having any charging above Level 2? Model S could fit in, and stand out.

jcstp

10-17-2011, 11:59 AM

I think fast-charging will be only along Highways!
On other places it does not make sense I guess!
In contrary to ice-cars who need petrolstations in every village!
Watch petrol-stations along highways! People use them too eventhough they can "charge" around the corner!
How many % of ice-car users use petrolstations along the highway? 10% ?
Not much more then the fast-chargingnetwork will be used I guess!

Along highways, petrolstations have often shops & restaurants!

I guess a fast-chargingstation will not only be evaluated by it's cost, but probably also by its profit-possibility in other areas!

I do not think installing only one "standard" and not the other will cut their profits by a lot!
surely when installing them, costs the same!
They will just evaluate the number of possible users to decide how many of each to install!

Norbert

10-17-2011, 12:49 PM

Demand is an easy problem to solve: build more stations and/or set a premium rate on the 90 kW chargers so that lower rate cars will prefer 50 kW stations.

Tesla has indicated the stations will be free initially, and not even have card readers. Who wants them to be so expensive that "lower rate cars" can't pay for them?

Lack of demand is a bigger problem. If Model S used the same connector as other cars, then Model S owners would get access to mass-market 50 kW stations while also driving installation of faster stations with more profitable billing models. Which is worse: occasionally waiting 25 minutes for a LEAF to charge or not having any charging above Level 2? Model S could fit in, and stand out.

We'll also need some chargers in places where there is little demand, and we'll want even those to be 90 kW. In fact, that is a reason why it will be good to have car companies involved in building an infrastructure: their business model does not depend on making each and every charger a profit center of its own.

There are certainly advantages in having the same connector. However, there is also an advantage or two in having a different one, and the above is one of them. But that should perhaps be discussed in the "connector" thread (except that thread is occupied by the 3-phase question)...

Norbert

10-17-2011, 01:08 PM

I think fast-charging will be only along Highways!
On other places it does not make sense I guess!

I'd expect, for example, that eventually, every larger parking structure and parking lot will also have fast chargers.

Fast chargers also make sense where you want to serve more cars with a limited number of parking spaces, since then the cars don't have to park there for a long time to get the charge they want or need.

Last but not least, many may prefer to make stop in a city when traveling.

So eventually, when EVs will have a certain significant percentage of all cars, fast chargers will be more or less everywhere, just not on every parking spot.

jcstp

10-17-2011, 01:35 PM

So eventually, when EVs will have a certain significant percentage of all cars, fast chargers will be more or less everywhere, just not on every parking spot.

What I think also!

jaanton

10-19-2011, 12:08 PM

TEG

10-19-2011, 12:38 PM

That would actually make a lot of sense since parts of Tesla are in LA and the rest in the SF bay area. Doing long distance MAPs (Mileage Accumulation Programs) with 300 mile range Model S prototypes, one would need one recharge stop to get between SF and LA with Harris Ranch basically being in the middle.

But thinking to myself, they do have the Fremont factory test track now, so they could run Model S prototypes in circles day and night if they need...

Norbert

10-19-2011, 12:40 PM

A post over at the mynissanleaf.com site claims that Tesla is building a DC fast charge at Harris Ranch.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Harris Ranch (California I-5 at Coalinga) Update (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6327)

Ah thanks! Quoting the part directly related to Tesla:

Well, I emailed Harris Ranch and received a phone call back from their management. He gave interesting news. Tesla is currently building and testing out their version of a quick-charge unit at Harris Ranch. They anticipate that when the Tesla Model S becomes available, their charger at Harris Ranch will be able to provide 45 minute charges even for their longer range battery packs.

(Probably a prototype to test the Model S in the real world, unless their 90 kW charger is ready for deployment...)

TEG

10-19-2011, 12:42 PM

A post over at the mynissanleaf.com site claims that Tesla is building a DC fast charge at Harris Ranch.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Harris Ranch (California I-5 at Coalinga) Update (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6327)

More text copied from there:

...That's great for Tesla, but there's more. They also plan to install non-Tesla quick-charger(s) at about the same time frame. They are concerned about the current debate over J1772 QC standards and will wait until that issue is resolved. They hope to have this in place in about nine months.

He has been approached by several EV owners (not just Tesla) and is keeping tabs on the amount of interest. Finally, I asked him if the Harris Ranch website could be updated with the progress on the EV charging facilities. He agreed that would happen...

richkae

10-19-2011, 12:56 PM

To put a fast charger every 200 miles along US interstates would only require about 80 locations to cover the entire continental US. That will let a top end Model S drive anywhere in the US. The number of people who want to drive a Leaf 500 miles in a day is very close to zero. The stations being put in for the Leaf will not be in convenient places for cross country travel - they will be clustered around the cities.
I think Tesla should make this backbone network for the Model S and let the entities making the network for the Leaf fill in the edge cases with their lower power ( 50kW ) chargers.
I sure want the Model S to be able to use both, and would also be happy if the Tesla ones were exclusive so there was no waiting for the 100,000 Leafs on the road next year.

vfx

10-19-2011, 01:07 PM

Tesla did not put the HPC at Harris Ranch. An owner did.

Norbert

10-19-2011, 03:11 PM

I'd think if they are already prototyping/testing or actually working on the SF/LA Hwy 5 axis, they'd install 2-3 chargers (maybe one at the bottom of the Grapevine ascend). Of course, there is also Hwy 101 (Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo) and Hwy 1 (Monterey/Carmel, Big Sur). Make your wish list... ;)

Kipernicus

10-19-2011, 04:20 PM

That would actually make a lot of sense since parts of Tesla are in LA and the rest in the SF bay area. Doing long distance MAPs (Mileage Accumulation Programs) with 300 mile range Model S prototypes, one would need one recharge stop to get between SF and LA with Harris Ranch basically being in the middle.

I'm curious how well Model S will hold up for 200 miles at highway 5 speeds (70 limit, cruising speeds of 80-85+). Certainly will need the 300 mile pack!

Along the 101 the midpoint is Paso Robles/Atascadero, where those Rabo Bank chargers are. Hopefully there will be some DC there as well.

Lloyd

10-19-2011, 04:36 PM

I believe San Luis Obispo is being planned due to the # of restaurants available and the extensive downtown area within walking distance.

bonnie1194

10-19-2011, 08:43 PM

Larry Chanin

10-19-2011, 09:15 PM

I'm curious how well Model S will hold up for 200 miles at highway 5 speeds (70 limit, cruising speeds of 80-85+). Certainly will need the 300 mile pack!

Hi,

If the Model S 300 mile battery pack performs similarly to the Roadster battery pack, the range would be about 175 miles and 190 miles for cruising speeds of 80 and 85 mph respectively.

Roadster Range vs. Speed

3194

Larry

Kevin Sharpe

10-20-2011, 01:18 AM

My suggestion for Tesla is to sell the DC Charger at cost with multiple connectors; Tesla and CHAdeMO to start, and then SAE or whatever gets established next. Then owners, businesses, consortium, etc, could club together and deploy a solution that would meet the needs of both the Japanese and US car makers.

Some of the ZCW donation sites could be potential DC Charger locations. However, to make a commercial case in the UK we would need Leaf's to use the same locations. We would also need the 90kW Tesla Charger to be available at low cost.

I'd also suggest that Tesla deploy the same DC Charger 3-Phase front end in the European cars as an option. Maybe that involves 3 x 10kW Chargers at launch to keep it simple (note, I'd happily throw out the two kids and use the weight saved for a 3-Phase charging option).

Eberhard

10-20-2011, 01:31 AM

Kevin Sharpe

10-20-2011, 01:38 AM

That was my first idea, when i talked to the power train architect, but he told me, that there where insufficient space to host 3 charger.I would hope that a 10kW charger is not as big or heavy as two kids.... seems to me they could find room.

Even connecting to two different phases seems impossible.Well, the 90kW DC Charger must be using 3-Phase power so it's clearly possible somehow.

On display was an external 20kW DC Charger (with the Brusa NLG6 inside) priced at 15.000€Sorry but I don't consider 15.000€ low cost :wink:

Eberhard

10-20-2011, 01:45 AM

Well, the 90kW DC Charger must be using 3-Phase power so it's clearly possible somehow.

on a external housing you are free how connect those charges. to use 277V/480V 120A socket you place 3 chargers per phase. Thats why you get 90kW. Then you have to add shunts and electronic to run the charging protocol.

Inside the car, you have to connect both charger to an separate Inlet like mennekes Type 2 plus some controller for the protokoll as well. Or simple hardwire to a standard CEE socket.

rabar10

10-21-2011, 10:56 AM

Something else that should be considered --

I would expect that the failure rate or 'down-time' of a DC fast charge station will be higher than that of a 240VAC 'simple' EVSE, especially early on when the technology is still maturing.

Fast-charge stations should also be installed with a "backup" Level 2 AC EVSE, or at minimum a NEMA 14-50 plug on one of the supply phases (connected prior to the DC charge station to isolate it from faults).

While it would be a huge inconvenience to have to slowly charge at one of these stations, it would be far worse to count on its availability only to be stranded due to an issue with the DC charger and be left with no other options available...

Norbert

10-21-2011, 11:00 AM

I would expect that the failure rate or 'down-time' of a DC fast charge station will be higher than that of a 240VAC 'simple' EVSE, especially early on when the technology is still maturing.

Tesla will be using the same technology as is inside the Model S (9*10 kW), so it better be reliable.

rabar10

10-21-2011, 11:06 AM

Tesla will be using the same technology as is inside the Model S (9*10 kW), so it better be reliable.
Hopefully you're right. The issues may come more from the plug/cable (heavy use, dropped, run over) than with the charger electronics itself. But we have seen 'growing pains' even with early EVSEs and Nissan charger roll-outs.

My main point is to have a backup plan. Single point of failure and all.

Norbert

10-21-2011, 11:15 AM

Hopefully you're right. The issues may come more from the plug/cable (heavy use, dropped, run over) than with the charger electronics itself.

Maybe it could have two cables, and use it so that you can already plug in a second car, and when the first car is done charging, it automatically switches over. :)

richkae

10-21-2011, 04:10 PM

I think the right thing to do with ALL fast DC chargers is have more cables/connectors than the thing can actually power.
This alleviates the problem of somebody who plugs their car in for a 40 minute charge, but doesnt come back for an hour - wasting 20 plug minutes.
The charger should have a whole ton of cables and when you plug in, it will tell you if you are going to charge now, or later - and if later a screen can tell you how long you will wait for the charge to start and finish. Most likely you wont have to wait very much, and the computer should be able to you a very accurate time.

I much prefer this to unplugging someone elses car - its either this option or have a valet there to deal with it like at a gas station.

TEG

10-21-2011, 06:15 PM

Plus, as I mentioned elsewhere, it would be good if the QC machines had multiple cable types (CHAdeMO / SAE / Tesla ) so that car drivers don't have to carry adapters around. There will be far fewer QCs than vehicles. I think it would make sense to have any signaling conversion done in the charger so the expense is shared by all that use it. It would be better than have everyone buy some expensive Tesla <-> CHAdeMO or CHAdeMO <-> SAE adapter that they only use a couple of times

dpeilow

10-22-2011, 01:24 AM

On the subject of reliability - the charger is made from 9x 10kW bricks so in the event of a brick failure it should be possible to have 80kW. The could even have a 10th one in there for redundancy.

VolkerP

10-23-2011, 02:05 PM

RAIC = Redundant Array of Independent Chargers?

rabar10

10-26-2011, 06:36 AM

(cross-posted from HPC 2.0 thread)

Bucking Trends, Tesla Goes It Alone on Plug Design (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/bucking-trends-tesla-goes-it-alone-on-plug-design/)

The company has also designed its own D.C. fast-charge unit, capable of delivering 480 volts, which would be called the Supercharger. Mr. Musk said that the first Supercharger would be installed along Interstate 5 at the Harris Ranch in Coalinga, Calif., roughly halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco, within the next three or four months.

Tesla claims that the Supercharger would take any Model S from a 10 percent to a 90 percent charge in 45 minutes, but Mr. Straubel said in an e-mail that the company would prefer to focus on “recovering more than a 50 percent state of charge in 30 minutes of charging, or 150 miles of driving range in 30 minutes with the 300-mile-range vehicle.”

Supercharger :rolleyes:

Lloyd

10-26-2011, 07:39 AM

Supercharger :rolleyes:

I think the tag they put on the DC charging network is bad. I hope this name does not catch on. Customers need to understand the difference between AC and DC, and the potential power and charging time they will require. This just dumbs down the system. IMHO

TEG

10-26-2011, 08:00 AM

...Tesla claims that the Supercharger would take any Model S from a 10 percent to a 90 percent charge in 45 minutes, but Mr. Straubel said in an e-mail that the company would prefer to focus on “recovering more than a 50 percent state of charge in 30 minutes of charging, or 150 miles of driving range in 30 minutes with the 300-mile-range vehicle.”...

I can relate to the 80% (10% to 90%)... But I wonder why the emphasis on 30 minute 50% charging? Are there further concerns that doing 80% of full charge with high speed DC is not good for the batteries? Or do they just want to start saying "fast charge in half an hour" to compete with smaller pack cars that make that claim?

TEG

10-26-2011, 08:03 AM

Supercharger :rolleyes:
Yeah, that name already has a common usage...
http://hamptonblowers.com/1A73Blower.jpg
And the connotation is that it makes the car go quicker/faster.

I can see it now: "How much better is the 0-60 if I use the Supercharger?"

Larry Chanin

10-26-2011, 08:32 AM

I can relate to the 80% (10% to 90%)... But I wonder why the emphasis on 30 minute 50% charging? Are there further concerns that doing 80% of full charge with high speed DC is not good for the batteries? Or do they just want to start saying "fast charge in half an hour" to compete with smaller pack cars that make that claim?

Wouldn't they want to do both? That is, discourage fast charging from 10% (due to risks of reduced battery life) and show that realistically it can charge in just 30 minutes.

Larry

vfx

10-26-2011, 08:43 AM

Yeah, that name already has a common usage...
http://hamptonblowers.com/1A73Blower.jpg
And the connotation is that it makes the car go quicker/faster.

This was my thought. It's taken.

Why not explore new adjectives?

Ultracharger

Gigacharger

Megacharger

[all TM 10/11] :)

ckessel

10-26-2011, 08:53 AM

I'm not sure why they just don't focus on the range/hour recharge rate. "Gain 300 miles of range per hour of charging." (with a little * saying "limited to 80% of normal battery capacity").

vfx

10-26-2011, 09:44 AM

Elon: We developed something we call a Tesla Supercharger, which kind of recycles a term from the gasoline combustion engine world. It recharges the battery at over 100 miles every 20 minutes.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-and-chris-paine-explain-how-the-electric-car-got-its-revenge-2011-10#ixzz1buI32UyP

Lloyd

10-26-2011, 09:46 AM

This was my thought. It's taken.

Why not explore new adjectives?

Ultracharger

Gigacharger

Megacharger

[all TM 10/11] :)

Tesslisimo

Tesmaximus

Ugghhhhh....... Worse!

T-Power
T-Charger
T-DC Fast
T-FastCharger
Tesla 100 MPH power

Better?

I like T-Charger, and replace the T with the Tesla logo T!

TEG

10-26-2011, 09:53 AM

http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-and-chris-paine-explain-how-the-electric-car-got-its-revenge-2011-10#ixzz1buI32UyP

...Chris has a nice way of saying it which is, you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining...
Important point to consider!

...Look for charging stations in parking meters. As Paine explains, "You look at places in Denmark, they're retrofitting parking meters and adding electric chargers to them, taking advantage of the electric circuit in every parking meter."...
Yes, I think we (somewhat unfortunately) will have to go to a model where you pay something as you stay parked at a charging spot, otherwise some opportunists will stay parked there all day even though they don't need any more charging. Free charging is a nice incentive / perk, but I think it will need to go away someday...

...We gave all customers a tour of the factory and a rise in the beta model S...
Hmm... Customers got a "rise" in the Model S? :redface:

ckessel

10-26-2011, 10:15 AM

Elon: We developed something we call a Tesla Supercharger, which kind of recycles a term from the gasoline combustion engine world. It recharges the battery at over 100 miles every 20 minutes.
I think this is definitely the way to address adoption issues. Electric cars have the infinite range of gas right now since electricity is ubiquitous, it's just a pain in the ass due to the refueling time. The more battery pack size becomes cheaper per kWh capacity and the faster you can recharge it, the less pain there is in the refueling. At some point, that refueling locations become powerful enough and the and refueling time differential becomes small enough that range anxiety disappears.

GSP

10-27-2011, 04:26 AM

The Supercharger name is starting to grow on me. I think the name will work well for Tesla marketing. It is after all a "Super" Charger. :-).

The connotations of that name being associated with "Blower Bentlys," Duesengerg SJ's, Hi-Perf Mercedes cars for nearly 100 years, and high performance pre-war aircraft engines, suit Tesla's high end market.

GSP

VolkerP

10-27-2011, 07:19 AM

I think the tag they put on the DC charging network is bad. I hope this name does not catch on. Customers need to understand the difference between AC and DC, and the potential power and charging time they will require. This just dumbs down the system. IMHO
"D.C. charger? I am in Iowa! I must be able to use it far away from Washington!"

jcstp

10-27-2011, 07:58 AM

"D.C. charger? I am in Iowa! I must be able to use it far away from Washington!"

I thought this is ac dc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmYlnQv_dg

jcstp

10-27-2011, 08:02 AM

I think this is about someone that got too close to the battery while driving his car allnight :biggrin:
Probably for not knowing the difference between AC and DC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bomv-6CJSfM

Norbert

11-01-2011, 11:20 AM

Exclusive Interview: Elon Musk Shows Cool Confidence About Tesla's Future | PluginCars.com (http://www.plugincars.com/elon-musk-cool-confidence-about-teslas-future-109656.html)

Presumably Tesla could simply have styled a better-looking plug that nonetheless used the J1772 connectors, but that’s not the company’s approach. “If we have a choice of a great standard or being forced to adhere to a crap standard, we choose ours,” Musk said. “Ours is awesome. We can get 90 kilowatts through such a tiny plug. And we’ve made the cord as light as physics will allow to still be able to carry that amount of power.”

Since most public stations will be set up to charge with the J1772 plug, this is a potential problem, but Tesla says it will supply adaptors to accommodate any existing standard. The company also unveiled its home charger (which it calls a “connector,” since the actual 10- or 20-kilowatt charger is on the car). The wall-mounted unit is an ultra-sharp angular design, in various colors to match customers’ cars.

Larry Chanin

11-09-2011, 06:03 PM

Tesla Announces Rapid-Charging Corridor Between L.A. and San Francisco (http://gas2.org/2011/11/09/tesla-announces-rapid-charging-corridor-between-l-a-and-san-francisco/)

3379

These 90 kilowatt SuperChargers can add as much as 150 miles of range to a Tesla vehicle in 30 minutes or less. Unfortunately, other vehicles with rapid-charging capabilities will be unable to plug into these charges as well. We’ve basically talking about a charging network for a handful of affluent Tesla customers that is off-limits to other EV drivers. So rather than lumping all EV drivers together, there is already a divide between those who can *only* afford a Leaf or Volt, and those who have the cash to splurge on a Tesla Roadster or Model S. This is EV elitism at its worst.
Larry

Norbert

11-09-2011, 07:01 PM

Tesla Announces Rapid-Charging Corridor Between L.A. and San Francisco (http://gas2.org/2011/11/09/tesla-announces-rapid-charging-corridor-between-l-a-and-san-francisco/)

Larry

Not a word that EVs with standard (non-DC) J1772 won't be able to use DC chargers anyway, that the only EV (actual or announced) which could theoretically use it would be the Leaf, and the Leaf doesn't use J1772 for DC either. Not a word that J1772-DC-combo doesn't even exist in real life, and why Tesla would have a reason not to use it.

zack

11-09-2011, 09:05 PM

I'd love to have been in on the discussions at Tesla that gave rise to these particular decisions. I bet the DC chargers are smart and can adapt to different models with different voltages in their packs as Tesla releases them and the technology changes.

As far as the 20 miles of range that's saved by not refining a gallon of gasoline, there goes the argument about the "long tailpipe." Every single electric car we put on the road diminishes the use of electricity by refineries at exactly the rate we need to supply those electric cars off the grid. It takes down the load on the grid just enough to power the car... the very existence of the cars causes the grid to improve at the rate we need.

richkae

11-09-2011, 10:01 PM

I said basically this in another thread, but nobody wants to debate, so here goes again.
I think Tesla is doing the right thing.
It should probably fall to each EV manufacturer to make sure there is charging infrastructure to support their customers.

By the end of 2013 Tesla will probably have at least 5000 customers in California between SF and LA.
One supercharger supports about a dozen cars per day without obnoxious scheduling and long wait times.
To support 1% of those 5000 cars wanting to make that drive on any given day they need 4 superchargers.
To support 10% of those they need 42 of them.
The average case is not important, only the worst case, like a big holiday weekend.

Why spend that money to support other manufacturers EVs?
By the end of 2013 there could easily be 50,000 other EVs along that corridor, most of them won't be capable of such a long highway trip, but if they try at 1/10th the rate of Teslas, they block Teslas from the resource.

Larry Chanin

11-09-2011, 11:42 PM

Not a word that EVs with standard (non-DC) J1772 won't be able to use DC chargers anyway, that the only EV (actual or announced) which could theoretically use it would be the Leaf, and the Leaf doesn't use J1772 for DC either. Not a word that J1772-DC-combo doesn't even exist in real life, and why Tesla would have a reason not to use it.

Hi Norbert,

Isn't it also true that not all Leafs have the DC charging port, since its a $700 option?

Larry

Norbert

11-10-2011, 12:05 AM

Hi Norbert,

Isn't it also true that not all Leafs have the DC charging port, since its a $700 option?

Larry

Yes, a while ago the number given by Nissan was that 85% (at least in CA) have the port (for members of the EVProject, which are about half, I think, it comes for free). So 15% don't.

BTW, the Mitsubishi "i" also uses CHAdeMO, I didn't think of it since somehow it doesn't make a lot of headlines. And GM's "city car" EV might, according to some drawing, use a fast charge port, but that isn't announced (AFAIK) so who knows, and GM apparently doesn't intend to sell it in volume, supposedly only couple thousand to satisfy CARB regulations, or so. So that does't really count so far.

jkirkebo

11-10-2011, 01:10 AM

Hi Norbert,

Isn't it also true that not all Leafs have the DC charging port, since its a $700 option?

Larry

Only in the US. It is standard equipment in Europe and Japan.

tomsax

11-10-2011, 11:53 AM

Isn't it also true that not all Leafs have the DC charging port, since its a $700 option?
I believe it will be standard on the 2012 LEAF, so just a small number of 2011 models will not have the CHAdeMO port.

tomsax

11-10-2011, 12:05 PM

I said basically this in another thread, but nobody wants to debate, so here goes again.
I think Tesla is doing the right thing.
It should probably fall to each EV manufacturer to make sure there is charging infrastructure to support their customers.

OK, I'll play...

The picture you paint makes some sense in areas of high demand, although it's seems like it would be wacky to have GM, Nissan, Ford, etc., each maintaining their own network of gas stations.

The problem is much worse in areas where there is less initial demand. Why have a CHAdeMO and a Tesla Supercharger both sitting unused 99.8% of the time in Ritzville, WA? It seems like a huge waste of capital to require independent, incompatible charging infrastructure during the period of time when we're trying to bootstrap EV adoption.

We can argue about whether or not Tesla's strategy is the right thing for Tesla and its customers, but the sentiment expressed in the article that reignited this thread (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/6512-Tesla-DC-charging-network?p=92685&viewfull=1#post92685) is likely to be pretty common among potential charging station hosts, and that's going to be a big barrier to Tesla fulfilling their promise of comprehensive, nationwide charging infrastructure.

Larry Chanin

11-10-2011, 12:26 PM

I believe it will be standard on the 2012 LEAF, so just a small number of 2011 models will not have the CHAdeMO port.

Hi Tom,

The 2012 Nissan LEAF™ SV does not come with the fast charger port.

The 2012 Nissan LEAF™ SL, which costs more than $2,000 more than the SV, does have the fast charger included.

Larry

qwk

11-10-2011, 01:14 PM

OK, I'll play...

The picture you paint makes some sense in areas of high demand, although it's seems like it would be wacky to have GM, Nissan, Ford, etc., each maintaining their own network of gas stations.

The problem is much worse in areas where there is less initial demand. Why have a CHAdeMO and a Tesla Supercharger both sitting unused 99.8% of the time in Ritzville, WA? It seems like a huge waste of capital to require independent, incompatible charging infrastructure during the period of time when we're trying to bootstrap EV adoption.

We can argue about whether or not Tesla's strategy is the right thing for Tesla and its customers, but the sentiment expressed in the article that reignited this thread (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/6512-Tesla-DC-charging-network?p=92685&viewfull=1#post92685) is likely to be pretty common among potential charging station hosts, and that's going to be a big barrier to Tesla fulfilling their promise of comprehensive, nationwide charging infrastructure.I agree, but if Tesla somehow makes a CHAdeMO adapter, then it will be a win-win for Tesla. Faster charging for the Model S/X using the supercharger with no risk of the spot being occupied by another brand of EV, while still being able to use CHAdeMO chargers.

richkae

11-10-2011, 01:25 PM

OK, I'll play...

Thanks Tom! As an EV enthusiast who sees the greater good of EV adoption, I totally see your point.

But putting on my consumer hat, what I want is a car that is as convenient as an ICE car. I want:
1) charging everywhere I want to go
2) no waiting for someone else when I want to charge

I'm not concerned about the waste of chargers sitting idle, I'll buy the car that delivers that for me.
Consumer hat off.

I think we have been ignoring the problem of charger contention and it needs a solution.

Norbert

11-11-2011, 06:40 PM

I think we have been ignoring the problem of charger contention and it needs a solution.

Since Nissan plans to produce 150,000 to 200,000 Leafs per year, once they open their Tennessee plant in late 2012, this would be a serious problem if Tesla wanted to supply 90 kW chargers in a quantity that is appropriate for the numbers of Model S planned, 20,000 per year.

If both sell as planned, Leafs will outnumber Model S by a factor of 10x.
Furthermore, Leafs will be occupying them for more than twice the time, due to their slower charging time, and the fact that home-charging won't allow them to make the same percentage of long trips as a Model S can do with home charging only. The percentage of long trips not covered by home charging goes down quickly with increased range.

So the time-demand of Leafs may easily be 30x. How could Tesla possibly install 90 kW SuperChargers cost-effectively, if they were occupied by Leafs 30x of the time?

In the initial phase, Leafs may not yet fully use the available chargers, but the initial phase does't seem to be a big problem in itself.

Tesla may need to install only 1/30th of the number of chargers that Nissan may need to install, even though in the initial phase where relative usage is small, it may need to install a minimum as required by the maximum distance between chargers, but this will still be only 1/2 or 1/3 of what Leafs require, and it will be much easier to find locations at those greater distances.

So Leafs will get a different kind of network: small distances, larger quantities.
Whereas the Tesla network will require fewer chargers yet provide faster charging.
Both may be happy.

Having a compatible network might be a disaster for Tesla (until perhaps Bluestar will provide them with much larger resources to handle this situation).

Larry Chanin

11-21-2011, 08:51 AM

drees

11-21-2011, 10:31 AM

This is the first article in which I have seen a cost for the Supercharger.
Bank of America Maintains Buy, PT of $36 on Tesla (http://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings/analyst-color/11/11/2141577/bank-of-america-maintains-buy-pt-of-36-on-tesla)

Ouch, that hurts when Nissan can sell their CHAdeMO 50 kW unit for under $10k. Perhaps Nissan/Tesla should team up and build a dual-plug unit that supports both CHAdeMO and Tesla's plug.

Larry Chanin

11-21-2011, 11:25 AM

stopcrazypp

11-21-2011, 11:27 AM

Ouch, that hurts when Nissan can sell their CHAdeMO 50 kW unit for under $10k. Perhaps Nissan/Tesla should team up and build a dual-plug unit that supports both CHAdeMO and Tesla's plug.
Tesla's is a 90kW charger, so you would expect about twice the cost even at the same volume. Tesla's pricing is pretty much on par with most quick chargers at that level.

Nissan's pricing is extremely aggressive and requires a lot of volume. They might be the only one that can offer that kind of pricing.

drees

11-21-2011, 11:41 AM

Yes, that would certainly help Tesla, but what incentive would Nissan have?
It also costs a lot of money simply to install a charge station. By combining installs you can save a lot of money.

Tesla's is a 90kW charger, so you would expect about twice the cost even at the same volume. Tesla's pricing is pretty much on par with most quick chargers at that level.
I think the pricing for most other 50 kW CHAdeMO charging stations are not that far off Tesla's price. Even Nissan's 1st gen charging station was much more expensive. But they found that the high price was a significant factor preventing stations from getting installed so they applied their expertise to reducing the cost.

Nissan's pricing is extremely aggressive and requires a lot of volume. They might be the only one that can offer that kind of pricing.
Nissan is aiming to sell about 5,000 of them by early 2016. All the more reason for Tesla to team up with Nissan. It makes sense for now while their products are more complimentary than competitive. But really, both companies need more public infrastructure to succeed so why duplicate effort and expense when it's not needed?

VolkerP

11-21-2011, 12:20 PM

But really, both companies need more public infrastructure to succeed so why duplicate effort and expense when it's not needed?

Tesla Motors and NISSAN teaming up would make for some interesting discussions between the appropriate teams, meeting behind closed doors...

Norbert

11-21-2011, 01:10 PM

This is the first article in which I have seen a cost for the Supercharger.

Also the first *article* for me, but not the first time: Elon mentioned earlier in 2011 in at least one of his talks that the cost would be $25k, and it sounded more like that would include installation. In this case it isn't clear at all whether this might include installation. Quite possible that Tesla found since then that (at least initially) they might have higher costs for either hardware or installations, but this very short article doesn't have enough detail as that I would rely on such a number coming along all by itself without any description. It just adds a question mark.

richkae

11-21-2011, 01:13 PM

richkae

11-21-2011, 01:33 PM

If I could be involved in a meeting of Nissan and Tesla to discuss charging, a priority would be to implore Nissan to fix its Level 2 charging strategy.
Nissan is driving the crippled 30 amp Level 2 J1772 chargers. I think they will regret that when they try to introduce more EV products.
If the Leaf had a more powerful charger on board it could get its 80% charge in a fraction over an hour from an 80 amp J1772.
The 3.3kW charger may have been the right move for the Leaf - but if they decide that more powerful level 2 chargers on board is the way to go in the future, they will have already salted the earth with those 30 amp J1772s.

Norbert

11-21-2011, 01:34 PM

[...] I think Nissan needs to concentrate its fast charging infrastructure in the cities, but Tesla mostly needs it in between.

Good point, in a sense, or also, more destination charging than transit charging. Even for transit, Nissan might choose different places, for example not Harris ranch (on that side).

Continuing from my previous post: just an idea since $50k is exactly twice $25k, that could be for a double charger like Blink's. OTOH, it could be $25k hardware + $25k installation. Or in the worst case, it could be $50k plus installation. Either way, at this point the $50k is just a number in the room.

Larry Chanin

11-21-2011, 02:41 PM

Continuing from my previous post: just an idea since $50k is exactly twice $25k, that could be for a double charger like Blink's. OTOH, it could be $25k hardware + $25k installation. Or in the worst case, it could be $50k plus installation. Either way, at this point the $50k is just a number in the room.

Hi Norbert,

True, there is a lot of uncertainty regarding the cost of Tesla's "Supercharger", but if the sketchy article is to be believed then its nowhere near Nissan's ~$10,000 fast charger.

The idea of teaming up with another player is an intriguing idea, but I doubt Nissan would be the right partner for the reasons already discussed. Perhaps Toyota, who as far as I know hasn't already announced its approach to fast charging the RAV4 EV, would be a better fit.

Larry

drees

11-21-2011, 02:43 PM

I don't know that Nissan's needs and Tesla's needs overlap.

How many people are willing to drive a Nissan Leaf on a several hundred mile highway trip? You'd have to stop every 60-80 miles to charge.
I would expect a Leaf that is used hard may occasionally need a fast charge - having never left its metro area.
A J1772 trickle charge is not very useful, when limited as the Leaf is to 3.3kW, if you need a charge, you need their fast charge.
The Leaf needs fast charging infrastructure in the cities.

The Model S is a totally capable highway car, I could see driving it 500 miles in one day. The 300 mile range battery would only need one stop to do that.
That stop is likely to be on the highway between major cities.
The 300 mile range Model S is going to have a very very hard time using up its charge without leaving its home city. A 160 mile range model might, but it can charge at 10kW, so a 2 hour stop makes a significant and useful charge.

I think Nissan needs to concentrate its fast charging infrastructure in the cities, but Tesla mostly needs it in between.
I disagree - one needs to keep in mind that there is a long tail when it comes to trip lengths - as trips become longer, they also become exceedingly rare. There will certainly be some situations where charging stations will _only_ be usable by long range Model S's - but it's more likely that chargers will be most useful in urban and suburban areas.

Say you want to drive from San Diego to Palo Alto - about 500 miles. Even with the "300 mile" pack, at highway speeds you're going to need to charge every 200 miles or so at least 2 times - so stop for a bit in Santa Barbara (215 mi), San Luis Obispo (100 mi). But you'll probably want to charge a bit sooner than Santa Barbara since quick charging can't be done to 100% - charge rate has to slow down significantly to avoid overheating the pack so you'll probably want to add a stop in Los Angeles (100 mi) for a bit to pick up a partial charge. All of those locations would be in areas where Nissan LEAF owners would find them useful.

Never mind that Tesla will be selling plenty of S's with 160 mile packs - those cars will need quick charges a lot more frequently - every 115 miles or so at the least on the freeway - the 3 proposed charging stations I suggested would make a San Diego to Palo Alto trip possible for them as well. But it will also make much shorter trips - say from San Diego to Santa Barbara easily done, too.

Sure - no one in their right mind is going to take a 500 mile trip in a LEAF - but realistically if Tesla wants to make it's network usable to _all_ of it's owners, it probably needs a lot of chargers that will be useful to other EV drivers as well.

Larry Chanin

11-21-2011, 03:00 PM

Sure - no one in their right mind is going to take a 500 mile trip in a LEAF - but realistically if Tesla wants to make it's network usable to _all_ of it's owners, it probably needs a lot of chargers that will be useful to other EV drivers as well.

Hi,

I haven't been able to find any specs on the Nissan fast charger, but somehow I doubt it will match Tesla's 90 kW. Do you really think that its likely that with such different vehicles that a compromise on specifications is something that would serve each of their respective customers. Again, wouldn't Toyota be a better fit?

Larry

drees

11-21-2011, 03:08 PM

I haven't been able to find any specs on the Nissan fast charger, but somehow I doubt it will match Tesla's 90 kW. Do you really think that its likely that with such different vehicles that a compromise on specifications is something that would serve each of their respective customers. Again, wouldn't Toyota be a better fit?
You miss the point - I initially suggested that Tesla and Nissan should work together to build cost effective charging stations that can charge both CHAdeMO equipped cars and "Supercharger" equipped cars - not that Nissan's $10k CHAdeMO charger would be directly applicable to Tesla.

Using Nissan's technology they could probably build a single charge station that can handle both cars for less than Tesla's cost but able to charge both Tesla's and CHAdeMO cars.

Nissan will sell a lot more LEAFs than Tesla will Model S's - when you're installing an expensive charging station you're going to want to make it available for as many customers as possible. Your only chance at getting any ROI on a quick charge station is to keep it as busy as possible.

Larry Chanin

11-21-2011, 03:27 PM

You miss the point - I initially suggested that Tesla and Nissan should work together to build cost effective charging stations that can charge both CHAdeMO equipped cars and "Supercharger" equipped cars - not that Nissan's $10k CHAdeMO charger would be directly applicable to Tesla.

Using Nissan's technology they could probably build a single charge station that can handle both cars for less than Tesla's cost but able to charge both Tesla's and CHAdeMO cars.

Nissan will sell a lot more LEAFs than Tesla will Model S's - when you're installing an expensive charging station you're going to want to make it available for as many customers as possible. Your only chance at getting any ROI on a quick charge station is to keep it as busy as possible.

Hi,

I guess we're talking past one another. Nissan has a significant competitive advantage in that they have a fast charger at about $10K. To partner with Tesla would require building a much more expensive combination charger throwing that advantage away.

I like the idea of teaming up, with the appropriate partner. I figure that Toyota will sell a bunch of RAV4 EVs and Tesla already has a nice partnership with them.

Larry

drees

11-21-2011, 03:33 PM

I guess we're talking past one another. Nissan has a significant competitive advantage in that they have a fast charger at about $10K. To partner with Tesla would require building a much more expensive combination charger throwing that advantage away.
No, it wouldn't. If Tesla is going to build out their network regardless, but teaming up with Nissan lets them build a charging station that is less expensive and can charge CHAdeMO cars, too, then it's a win-win for both. Nissan gets more CHAdeMO chargers out for basically no cost and Tesla gets a charging station that hosts are more likely to install since it will be used more.

TEG

11-21-2011, 06:33 PM

...I haven't been able to find any specs on the Nissan fast charger, but somehow I doubt it will match Tesla's 90 kW...

I think the Nissan CHAdeMO is typically called 50kW. Tesla probably needs the nearly 2x rate because their first Model S pack will be over 3x larger than a LEAF pack.
So to still call it "fast charging" (say under an hour) it needs to be more powerful.

Larry Chanin

11-21-2011, 07:18 PM

Nissan gets more CHAdeMO chargers out for basically no cost and Tesla gets a charging station that hosts are more likely to install since it will be used more.

I think the Nissan CHAdeMO is typically called 50kW. Tesla probably needs the nearly 2x rate because their first Model S pack will be over 3x larger than a LEAF pack.
So to still call it "fast charging" (say under an hour) it needs to be more powerful.

Thanks TEG,

So what I'm trying to figure out is how does nearly doubling the size of the charger (to accommodate Tesla's needs) get Nissan more CHAdeMO chargers for basically no cost. I certainly see the advantage to Tesla, but I fail to see how Nissan would ever see such a combination charger to their advantage. If its a matter of dividing the costs, wouldn't it make more sense for Nissan to simply partner with another higher volume manufacturer, such as Mitsubishi, that will use CHAdeMO charging, rather than choosing a partner that will produce an order of magnitude less vehicles and has a propietary charger connector? Likewise wouldn't it make sense for Tesla to partner with an other manufacturer, such as Toyota, that will have an EV with a battery capacity twice that of the LEAF and closer to Tesla vehicle needs?

Larry

richkae

11-21-2011, 07:27 PM

There are lots of trips along the west coast where you would need to put chargers in the middle of nowhere.

If you do the San Diego to Palo Alto trip up I5 there is a lot of nothing between LA and Palo Alto.
LA <-> Las Vegas: 265 miles, nothing in between
LA <-> Phoenix: 370 miles, nothing once you pass Palm Springs
SF <-> Portland OR, 650 miles, multiple 100+ mile stretches of nothing

Any route east of the I5 corridor has long stretches of nothing.

Robert.Boston

11-21-2011, 07:46 PM

^^^which is why driving and sailing are more interesting in New England, where you're never more than an hour away from some place interesting.

vfx

11-21-2011, 09:50 PM

^^^which is why driving and sailing are more interesting in New England, where you're never more than an hour away from some place interesting.

But how do they sound?

Larry Chanin

11-22-2011, 10:32 AM

A National Imperative -- Building an Interstate Network of Toilets (http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomgillis/2011/11/22/national-imperative-building-an-interstate-network-of-toilets/)

How can a web of unclean commodes play such a pivotal role in our national infrastructure? Because we will need them when all of the gas stations are gone because we are all driving electric cars.

Larry

Mark Petersen

11-22-2011, 03:27 PM

One other factor I believe the generally is overlocked, is how much power is there available at charging location
* tesla is 90KWh and the CHAdeMO is 50KWh
* the optimal fast charge sight will have at last two level 3 charges, and fore or more leve 2 charges
this mean that the charging site need (2x90 + 4x7)=208KWh or (2x50 + 4x7) 128KWh
how much power is there generally access to in the road +300KWh ? (remember we have to subtract the sights other power need)

so essential one tesla charger is equal to 2 CHAdeMO, leaving the operator to chose witch type to provide
but if tesla plan to provide an adaptor for CHAdeMO, most sight owners will choose CHAdeMO, as that won't exclude any cars that support level 3 charging
the next question is, if power is limited (120KWh) will tesla make a dual charger, that support two cars by lower the power to 60-60 or 90-30
also are the car able to provide the charger with information on how much power/time it will need in order to provide the second car with an estimate on when full power will be available (or online service)

dpeilow

11-22-2011, 11:31 PM

These are all good points. Other manufacturers' chargers support this type of power routing and I hope that Tesla's do too.

VolkerP

11-23-2011, 12:19 AM

Fast chargers have a lot of processing power built in. A little bit of that should be directed to link up with the the site's power distribution panel or the other chargers.
- "Hello, I'd like to charge a vehicle with 90kW."
- "No problem, other chargers are idle. Go ahead!"
... 10 minutes lapse...
- "Sorry to interrupt you guys, but now I have demand for another 50kW"
- "No way! I am charging a Tesla. Tell your client all we got left for him are 30kW for the next 25 minutes!"

Is there a standardized inter-charger protocol?

dpeilow

11-23-2011, 12:28 AM

Yes Open Charge Point Protocol (http://www.ocpp.nl/)

VolkerP

11-23-2011, 06:34 AM

Ah, great. I wonder if Tesla is going to ignore this standard, too with the supercharger. :confused:

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 08:53 AM

the next question is, if power is limited (120KWh) will tesla make a dual charger, that support two cars by lower the power to 60-60 or 90-30

Hi Mark,

Knowing Tesla's propensity to blaze their own trail, I think it is safe to speculate that for the short term they will continue to go it alone until the standards and market trends stabilize. So I expect them to continue to follow the Harris Ranch example and install a single 90kW "Supercharger". Hopefully 90kW won't present a capacity problem to most commercial establishments.

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 09:20 AM

Knowing Tesla's propensity to blaze their own trail, I think it is safe to speculate that for the short term they will continue to go it alone until the standards and market trends stabilize.

In a sense, but one could point out that the Tesla connector does use J1772 electrically, and will allow using J1772 L2 chargers with a *very* simple mechanical-only adapter (Tom Saxton mentioned one of "half a soda can" size). It's just that standards won't stop them from coming up with a much better solution, like the mechanical design and the way to integrate DC into a single connector using the same pins (where the combo 'standards' weren't even ready, let alone actually used by anyone).

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 09:36 AM

In a sense, but one could point out that the Tesla connector does use J1772 electrically, and will allow using J1772 L2 chargers with a *very* simple mechanical-only adapter (Tom Saxton mentioned one of "half a soda can" size). It's just that standards won't stop them from coming up with a much better solution, like the mechanical design and the way to integrate DC into a single connector using the same pins (where the combo 'standards' weren't even ready, let alone actually used by anyone).

Hi Norbert,

I should have been more specific. I was referring to DC fast charging standards. If Tesla discovers after its initial foray into its proprietary fast charging network that sites won't host their Superchargers because the chargers cater to a much smaller market, then Tesla may either have to change its approach or offer a combination charger with more than one type of DC connector.

As we know technologically superior designs are not always the survior in the marketplace.

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 11:06 AM

If Tesla discovers after its initial foray into its proprietary fast charging network that sites won't host their Superchargers because the chargers cater to a much smaller market, then Tesla may either have to change its approach or offer a combination charger with more than one type of DC connector.

I don't see this as a big problem. There will be a balance of (different) market(s) and chargers. I think Tesla will have a nice market rather quickly, especially among those who need or want to use their EV to make longer trips. The fact that longer range EVs need chargers only at larger distances also means that those EVs will concentrate on those fewer chargers initially (until more will be necessary and/or possible). It will also be easier to find sites at larger distances, since that corresponds better to how sites are distributed in this ICE-based world.

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 11:42 AM

I don't see this as a big problem. There will be a balance of (different) market(s) and chargers. I think Tesla will have a nice market rather quickly, especially among those who need or want to use their EV to make longer trips. The fact that longer range EVs need chargers only at larger distances also means that those EVs will concentrate on those fewer chargers initially (until more will be necessary and/or possible). It will also be easier to find sites at larger distances, since that corresponds better to how sites are distributed in this ICE-based world.

Hi Norbert,

I sincerely hope you are right.

Whether Tesla will have a nice market I suppose depends on how much Tesla intends to subsidize their Superchargers. However, if in the long haul they expect the site proprietor to eventually fund most of the costs of the installation then it will be rough going for Tesla installations. Looking at the end of 2013 estimates Tesla should be producing 20,000 Model Ss to 200,000 Leafs. At $50,000 for the Tesla Supercharger versus ~$10,000+ for the Nissan CHAdeMO its hard to be optimistic that site proprietors will be choosing the significantly more expensive Tesla proprietary chargers. Even if the costs were the same for the competing chargers, suitable parking spaces are limited and the site manager its not going to want to dedicate that space for a charger that only accommodates 1/10th of the potential market. If we throw in the Mitsubishi's the market becomes ever increasingly CHAdeMO dominant.

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 12:26 PM

I sincerely hope you are right.

So do I. ;) It's not like I'd think I already know for sure. ;)

Whether Tesla will have a nice market I suppose depends on how much Tesla intends to subsidize their Superchargers. However, if in the long haul they expect the site proprietor to eventually fund most of the costs of the installation then it will be rough going for Tesla installations. Looking at the end of 2013 estimates Tesla should be producing 20,000 Model Ss to 200,000 Leafs. At $50,000 for the Tesla Supercharger versus ~$10,000+ for the Nissan CHAdeMO its hard to be optimistic that site proprietors will be choosing the significantly more expensive Tesla proprietary chargers. Even if the costs were the same for the competing chargers, suitable parking spaces are limited and the site manager its not going to want to dedicate that space for a charger that only accommodates 1/20th of the potential market. If we throw in the Mitsubishi's the market becomes ever increasingly CHAdeMO dominant.

I don't yet believe the $50k number. Too often, articles, especially from the financial community, have reported incorrectly. Since the number given by Elon Musk earlier in 2011 was $25k, and appeared to be for an installation rather than just the hardware, I'd assume that even if $50k is correct, it is more likely to include installation.

Also my impression is that at least initially, Tesla is expecting to pay for the installation as well, and many sites close to highways do have plenty of parking spots, Harris ranch being one example. So there is little reason for them to say no. We'll know more when Tesla makes its Supercharger announcement in Jan/Feb, where they apparently also will announce a roll-out schedule.

I think Nissan will have a much bigger problem since they will need to install a much larger number of chargers, and at smaller distances, so in more unlikely places. Also it isn't clear whether Nissan is prepared to pay for the installation, and so far the companies they cooperated with have not been quick, to say the least. Except in Japan and in the UK's dealer network, not much has happened yet even though they are selling Leafs with CHAdeMO ports for almost a year already. So I don't think Tesla should make its strategy dependent on Nissan, or anyone else like GM or so (BMW?). None of these companies have proven to be reliable regarding fast-charging, and an even bigger question would be whether established companies (and their associated standard bodies) would be willing not only to cooperate with a start-up like Tesla, but also to sufficiently accommodate the needs of a pioneering and innovative small company. Tesla would be an uneven partner without enough power to protect their interests. In spite of announcements about future low-cost chargers, Nissan so far seems to have trouble supporting its own fast-charging strategy.

On the larger picture, I think companies have different expectations of what will work in the future, and they will need to find out in practice what works well and what doesn't so well. Perhaps when the time comes for 150+ kW (which may sound like a lot right now, but so did 90 kW a while ago), there will be enough experience for a basis to agree on a single worldwide standard.

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 03:19 PM

Even if the costs were the same for the competing chargers, suitable parking spaces are limited and the site manager its not going to want to dedicate that space for a charger that only accommodates 1/10th of the potential market.

Also my impression is that at least initially, Tesla is expecting to pay for the installation as well, and many sites close to highways do have plenty of parking spots, Harris ranch being one example. So there is little reason for them to say no. We'll know more when Tesla makes its Supercharger announcement in Jan/Feb, where they apparently also will announce a roll-out schedule.

Hi Norbert,

What I meant by "suitable parking spaces" had more to do with locations in close proximity to the electric service supply rather than having plenty of parking spots. The site manager really doesn't want to build a 480 volt distribution system in the parking lot, so he/she will want to limit the number of spaces devoted to fast charging regardless of how large their parking lot is. With limited numbers of prime parking spots the site manager will want to install a charger type compatible with the largest number of EVs on the road to provide the biggest return on investment.

I agree it will be very instructive when Tesla announces their roll-out schedule. When that happens I fully expect the initial roll-out of chargers to be 90 kW chargers without accommodating any other DC fast charging type.

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 04:14 PM

What I meant by "suitable parking spaces" had more to do with locations in close proximity to the electric service supply rather than having plenty of parking spots. The site manager really doesn't want to build a 480 volt distribution system in the parking lot, so he/she will want to limit the number of spaces devoted to fast charging regardless of how large their parking lot is. With limited numbers of prime parking spots the site manager will want to install a charger type compatible with the largest number of EVs on the road to provide the biggest return on investment.

Interesting point, although I haven't heard yet that this might be a limiting factor, it seems it would just slightly increase the installation cost for running the cable a few additional feet. However, I could imagine that there will be sites where additional power consumption might require larger costs above some threshold. I think the resolution, whenever that is the case, will be to have the chargers at different sites, not all in the same place.

Regarding the return on investment, I'm not sure that Tesla chargers will be used less than others, since fewer will be needed. Perhaps that will matter in the first year, but at that point in time there will be few chargers altogether and so little competition for spaces, if there ever will be. Later on, a 90 kW spot can sell more electricity than a 50 kW spot. And since a car with 90 kW charging either needs to make fewer stops, or requires a shorter charge time, it is more likely to spend money at that site, during that time. So I don't see why a Tesla charger should be less welcome than any other. Besides, it will look better. ;)

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 04:33 PM

Regarding the return on investment, I'm not sure that Tesla chargers will be used less than others, since fewer will be needed. Perhaps that will matter in the first year, but at that point in time there will be few chargers altogether and so little competition for spaces, if there ever will be. Later on, a 90 kW spot can sell more electricity than a 50 kW spot. And since a car with 90 kW charging either needs to make fewer stops, or requires a shorter charge time, it is more likely to spend money at that site, during that time. So I don't see why a Tesla charger should be less welcome than any other. Besides, it will look better. ;)

Hi Norbert,

I wasn't thinking of return on investment in terms of charger revenue. I was thinking that the availability of a compatible charger would attract business to the site as in the case of a decent restaurant. If there is an order of magnitude more CHAdeMO compatible EVs on the road than Teslas Model Ss, a restaurant would want to provide that type charger even if charging was free.

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 05:33 PM

Hi Norbert,

I wasn't thinking of return on investment in terms of charger revenue. I was thinking that the availability of a compatible charger would attract business to the site as in the case of a decent restaurant. If there is an order of magnitude more CHAdeMO compatible EVs on the road than Teslas Model Ss, a restaurant would want to provide that type charger even if charging was free.

Larry

Yes, in the beginning, and with already many Leafs driving around, I agree this will be true wherever a specific restaurant would have to choose either one or the other. Later-on, there will have to be more 50 kW chargers for Leafs/etc, so demand and supply will balance things out. (Then, with Bluestar, the situation may change again.) There are many times as many restaurants, and other potential sites, as chargers are needed for long range EVs.

It seems your thoughts are mostly based on ideas surrounding relatively cheap Level 2 chargers (3.3 - 6.6 kW). The Level 2 charger infrastructure concept imagines them to be all over the place at each commercial site, with each commercial site financing things from the marketing budget or so. (And the idea is a bit that EVs hop from charger to charger wherever they park, in order to get through the day). Whereas more expensive 90 kW chargers often will be (or could be, as one possibility) close to larger areas with multiple restaurants/coffee shops/shops etc, which will also have larger parking lots and plenty of potential power available. And they will be financed on a larger scope. In the beginning, at least, to a larger part or even completely by the car manufacturers (as appears to be Tesla's concept), where the cost and benefit is calculated per-car rather than per-charge. Perhaps later, when there are many EVs, per-charge concepts will also work for DC chargers, without risky up-front investments.

So I think what you say is correct, just that there will be many ways to address those various factors.

GSP

11-23-2011, 05:49 PM

It will be indeed be interesting to see what Tesla's plan to install "SuperChargers" will be. I am concerned that it will be the plan of just one corporation, instead of a marketplace. I certainly hope there will be SuperChargers available on all of the interstates, in the 200-250 mile range from my hometown.

It will also be interesting to see what companies will design, build, and sell SuperChargers. Just Columb? Or, maybe Tesla in-house? There are multiple companies building their own ChadeMo designs here in North America. Also multiple companies in Japan, and multiple European companies as well. This drives innovation, cost reduction, and provides choices for buyers. This principle works for any standard, not just ChadeMo, but not for propritary solutions.

GSP

Doug_G

11-23-2011, 06:02 PM

drees

11-23-2011, 06:17 PM

I'm wondering how easily the full power would be available. In our local industrial park, standard power is 600V 200A 3-phase. That's about 200 kW. So a single supercharger would consume half of the total power available at that location. If you want more power you'd have to pay the utility tens of thousands to install a bigger transformer.
Even at just 90 kW utility demand charges are going to be around $2000 / month in addition to energy charges (at least in California and New York - haven't checked other utilities to see what demand charges are).

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 06:23 PM

Yes, in the beginning, and with already many Leafs driving around, I agree this will be true wherever a specific restaurant would have to choose either one or the other. Later-on, there will have to be more 50 kW chargers for Leafs/etc, so demand and supply will balance things out. (Then, with Bluestar, the situation may change again.) There are many times as many restaurants, and other potential sites, as chargers are needed for long range EVs.

It seems your thoughts are mostly based on ideas surrounding relatively cheap Level 2 chargers (3.3 - 6.6 kW). The Level 2 charger infrastructure concept imagines them to be all over the place at each commercial site, with each commercial site financing things from the marketing budget or so. (And the idea is a bit that EVs hop from charger to charger wherever they park, in order to get through the day). Whereas more expensive 90 kW chargers often will be (or could be, as one possibility) close to larger areas with multiple restaurants/coffee shops/shops etc, which will also have larger parking lots and plenty of potential power available. And they will be financed on a larger scope. In the beginning, at least, to a larger part or even completely by the car manufacturers (as appears to be Tesla's concept), where the cost and benefit is calculated per-car rather than per-charge. Perhaps later, when there are many EVs, per-charge concepts will also work for DC chargers, without risky up-front investments.

So I think what you say is correct, just that there will be many ways to address those various factors.

Hi Norbert,

No, I haven't even mentioned Level 2 chargers. My point is simple, Leaf has first mover advantage, it has volume and it has a low cost DC fast charger solution that is not proprietary. They will soon be joined by Mitsubishi using that same charger standard also in volume.

Proprietors in key strategic locations, not just roadside restaurants, will not be installing a niche fast charger if it is not subsidized. They might not even see the feasibility of maintaining them even if Tesla agreed initially to fund the installation. These sites will be going with the mainstream, even if that design is not as elegant or high performance as the Tesla solution.

It will be several years before Tesla will be in a position to produce a high volume vehicle. By that time the fast charger marketplace standard may be a done deal. Perhaps if Tesla can convince Toyota to use the Tesla proprietary fast charging approach with its RAV4 EVs they might be able to hold their own in the early years, until Bluestar is released.

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 06:25 PM

I'm wondering how easily the full power would be available. In our local industrial park, standard power is 600V 200A 3-phase. That's about 200 kW. So a single supercharger would consume half of the total power available at that location. If you want more power you'd have to pay the utility tens of thousands to install a bigger transformer.

So just another standard outlet. You just turn the switch on. ;)

You certainly don't have to help them carry the transformer. It's their business.

GSP

11-23-2011, 06:34 PM

A National Imperative -- Building an Interstate Network of Toilets - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomgillis/2011/11/22/national-imperative-building-an-interstate-network-of-toilets/)

Larry, thanks for posting this.

Glad to see a Roadster owner get published in Forbes. The Roadster is such a transformational car. It has now exposed a good number of influential people to the benefits and joy of EVs.

This is yet another reason to start with a high-end car, beyond providing a business case that works. The high-end car is also aspirational, unlike another "penalty car," and inspires the next generation to covet EVs.

GSP

Doug_G

11-23-2011, 06:34 PM

So just another standard outlet. You just turn the switch on. ;)

You certainly don't have to help them carry the transformer. It's their business.

Uh, no, not here. If they have to upgrade their equipment because of you, you pay for it.

Doug_G

11-23-2011, 06:36 PM

GSP

11-23-2011, 06:41 PM

Utility demand charges? What's that?

Here is the first thing google found. Looks like a good explanation.

http://www.northwesternenergy.com/documents/E+Programs/E+demandcharges.pdf

GSP

Doug_G

11-23-2011, 07:00 PM

Here is the first thing google found. Looks like a good explanation.

http://www.northwesternenergy.com/documents/E+Programs/E+demandcharges.pdf
GSP

Hmmm... I don't think they have that kind of rate here. I know they do have special rates for companies that consume huge amounts of power.

drees

11-23-2011, 07:07 PM

Hmmm... I don't think they have that kind of rate here. I know they do have special rates for companies that consume huge amounts of power.
I haven't come across any utility which does not have demand charges for medium to large businesses. What utility co is up there?

Edit: Here's Hydro Ottawa's rate sheet: Rates & Conditions - Hydro Ottawa (http://www.hydroottawa.com/business/index.cfm?lang=e&template_id=36)

Demand charges for customers 50kW+ appears to be about $7 / kW - so a 90kW SuperCharger will cost you $630/mo + wholesale market rates per kWh (plus some other charges).

50 kW demand and less and you pay a flat ~$0.10 / kWh which includes energy and demand charges.

Norbert

11-23-2011, 07:26 PM

Hi Norbert,

No, I haven't even mentioned Level 2 chargers. My point is simple, Leaf has first mover advantage, it has volume and it has a low cost DC fast charger solution that is not proprietary. They will soon be joined by Mitsubishi using that same charger standard also in volume.

Proprietors in key strategic locations, not just roadside restaurants, will not be installing a niche fast charger if it is not subsidized. They might not even see the feasibility of maintaining them even if Tesla agreed initially to fund the installation. These sites will be going with the mainstream, even if that design is not as elegant or high performance as the Tesla solution.

It will be several years before Tesla will be in a position to produce a high volume vehicle. By that time the fast charger marketplace standard may be a done deal. Perhaps if Tesla can convince Toyota to use the Tesla proprietary fast charging approach with its RAV4 EVs they might be able to hold their own in the early years, until Bluestar is released.

Larry

Nissan maybe the first mover, but it hasn't moved yet. I am sure more than enough sites will be happy with Tesla's solution, and not regret their decision. In any case, it is not the restaurants or utilities job to choose the future of electric cars, or our job to make those decisions from what we think would be the restaurant's point of view. I prefer Tesla's choices, they appear reasonable, and I am confident Tesla will make it happen. My only concern is that Tesla's infrastructure plans aren't too minimalistic in the first place, we'll see in the Jan/Feb announcement. It'll be ok if they start with building a bare bones network, but they'll need to start expanding soon afterwards, along with actual Model S sales. You said earlier the superior design/technology doesn't always win. To me this seems needlessly pessimistic. The growing number of Model S reservations speaks for itself, and all indications are that Bluestar will follow seemlessly.

Doug_G

11-23-2011, 07:39 PM

I haven't come across any utility which does not have demand charges for medium to large businesses. What utility co is up there?

Edit: Here's Hydro Ottawa's rate sheet: Rates & Conditions - Hydro Ottawa (http://www.hydroottawa.com/business/index.cfm?lang=e&template_id=36)

Demand charges for customers 50kW+ appears to be about $7 / kW - so a 90kW SuperCharger will cost you $630/mo + wholesale market rates per kWh (plus some other charges).

50 kW demand and less and you pay a flat ~$0.10 / kWh which includes energy and demand charges.

Ah, okay, I should have been able to find that myself! :redface:

Norbert

11-23-2011, 07:45 PM

Even at just 90 kW utility demand charges are going to be around $2000 / month in addition to energy charges (at least in California and New York - haven't checked other utilities to see what demand charges are).

I saw lower prices so far, for example here, Southern California Edison, for demand between 20 kW and 200 kW:

http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce30-12.pdf

12.15 $/kW * 90 kW = $1093.50
12.15 $/kW * 50 kW = $607.50

These rates are surely designed for single-location customers. I don't know, but could imagine that, perhaps with the help of the DOE, fast chargers for EVs might get rates customized for them.

Larry Chanin

11-23-2011, 07:51 PM

You said earlier the superior design/technology doesn't always win. To me this seems needlessly pessimistic. The growing number of Model S reservations speaks for itself, and all indications are that Bluestar will follow seemlessly.

Hi Norbert,

Consumers fall in love with compelling cars, we did. For chargers...not so much.:wink:

Larry

Norbert

11-23-2011, 09:05 PM

Consumers fall in love with compelling cars, we did. For chargers...not so much.:wink:

What does the difference between 90 kW and 50 kW have to do with falling in love? It translates directly into waiting time which is one of most voiced criticisms of using EVs for traveling or longer trips.

I just don't see Tesla running out of friendly restaurants because they would all be occupied by Nissan. :wink:

drees

11-24-2011, 12:39 AM

I saw lower prices so far, for example here, Southern California Edison, for demand between 20 kW and 200 kW:

http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce30-12.pdf

12.15 $/kW * 90 kW = $1093.50
12.15 $/kW * 50 kW = $607.50

These rates are surely designed for single-location customers. I don't know, but could imagine that, perhaps with the help of the DOE, fast chargers for EVs might get rates customized for them.
You're missing summer demand charges which can range between an additional $5-$17 / kW to the $12 / kW you have above depending on the plan and time of demand.

Or you can pay $0.36-$0.37 / kWh for on-peak energy instead. Either way it's not cheap.

Norbert

11-24-2011, 01:02 AM

You're missing summer demand charges which can range between an additional $5-$17 / kW to the $12 / kW you have above depending on the plan and time of demand.

Or you can pay $0.36-$0.37 / kWh for on-peak energy instead. Either way it's not cheap.

Not impossible, but it appears the document applies to summer as well as winter, and the "Summer Time Related Demand Charge" appears to be 0.00 for this "Schedule GS-2" (which applies between 20 kW and 200 kW). There is a larger entry in the column "URG", rates which however "are applicable only to Bundled Service Customers."

Furthermore there are various discounts available, for example for those with solar panels feeding into the grid (something I could easily imagine Tesla might do wherever possible).

EDIT: May be the "URG "rates apply more commonly that it seemed to me, but if they apply in summer, that's at least only 50% on average. Perhaps paying summer on-peak $0.36-$0.39, instead, is the best option since that is much less in winter, and even in summer applies only weekdays, from noon-6pm.

EDIT 2: Not sure if eligibility for Option R can be achieved with a feasible amount of solar power, (perhaps with an exceptionally lowered threshold for EV fast charging), as that would lower the demand charge to $5.81/kW, which would amount to just $522.90 for 90 kW ?

efxjim

11-24-2011, 07:58 PM

I see a good use for timed out roadster packs or below spec cells. Tesla has the ability to build a charger that uses ~20 kw average over 24 hours to quick charge our vehicles. This will minimize the peak charges. Might even sell excess power back to utilities if charger is not fully utilized.

tomsax

11-24-2011, 08:35 PM

The idea of teaming up with another player is an intriguing idea, but I doubt Nissan would be the right partner for the reasons already discussed. Perhaps Toyota, who as far as I know hasn't already announced its approach to fast charging the RAV4 EV, would be a better fit.

Forget about Toyota, they aren't even in the game. Everything I've heard indicates that the new RAV4-EV is a compliance car: a low production charade, sold only in California to game the CARB requirements.

I don't yet believe the $50k number. Too often, articles, especially from the financial community, have reported incorrectly. Since the number given by Elon Musk earlier in 2011 was $25k, and appeared to be for an installation rather than just the hardware, I'd assume that even if $50k is correct, it is more likely to include installation.

Yeah, Musk has never promised a bunch of customers a product at a given price, then broken his word. :eek:

Norbert

11-24-2011, 08:55 PM

Yeah, Musk has never promised a bunch of customers a product at a given price, then broken his word. :eek:

In this case (fast charger) at least, it wasn't a promise, and we don't even know what exactly $25k referred to (except it was cost, not a selling price), and whether anything has changed since then, since we don't know what $50k refers to, either, if to anything valid at all.

So I think it is a bit misplaced to already start dishing up old stories. And wasn't the higher cost of the Roadster (which you probably refer to) a result of his predecessors, which the company's board wasn't informed about in time?

tomsax

11-24-2011, 09:09 PM

Norbert: your post argued that since Musk had said $25k previously, you doubted the $50k figure. I'm just saying that what Musk says early in the game may not be correct when the dust settles.

Just for the record, Musk took full control of the company more than a year before breaking the terms of some 400 locked-in Roadster orders.

Norbert

11-24-2011, 09:27 PM

Norbert: your post argued that since Musk had said $25k previously, you doubted the $50k figure. I'm just saying that what Musk says early in the game may not be the truth when the dust settles.

I don't see the slightest reason to say it wasn't the truth when he said it. A lot may have changed, and Elon just mentioning the expected cost of a something that isn't even announced as a product, and may not even become a product, isn't part of any "game" subject to such criteria.

Just for the record, Musk took full control of the company more than a year before breaking the terms of some 400 locked-in Roadster orders.

Sounds like he may have done his best to reduce the cost in order to keep those terms (set up before his time?), but couldn't by the time they needed to deliver. In so far as I heard, they continued to reduce costs over a long time.

It also sounds like you would have expected them to sell below costs, which would probably mean that Tesla would not be anymore.

Norbert

11-24-2011, 11:32 PM

Forget about Toyota, they aren't even in the game. Everything I've heard indicates that the new RAV4-EV is a compliance car: a low production charade, sold only in California to game the CARB requirements.

Toyota is a big name one way or the other. Their decision wouldn't come easily, it will matter, and the current RAV4-EV project size won't be Toyota's last word in the pure EV space.

qwk

11-25-2011, 08:59 AM

It also sounds like you would have expected them to sell below costs, which would probably mean that Tesla would not be anymore.

Exactly. I don't know why there is all of the hostility towards that decision. I really doubt that any roadster owner would have been happy about owning a car that there is no support for because Tesla went under as a result of keeping a price promise. Tesla's pricke hike was also peanuts compared to the Karma.

Now, if Tesla were to do it again with the Model S, that would be a different story.

We should all be gratefull that Tesla exists. Without the roadster, EV's would have been pushed back another decade or more. Let's face it most Ev's aren't very practical or desirable to drive. A good example would be a 1st gen Rav-4. A 3 cyl geo metro will out accelerate it, and the cost was $50k+ to build. The general public will definately not go for a vehicle like that. I definately wouldn't, and I'm an EV enthusiast.

vfx

11-25-2011, 09:34 AM

Exactly. I don't know why there is all of the hostility towards that decision....

Mostly because of the signed contracts. And the money.

jcstp

11-25-2011, 10:50 AM

Sounds like he may have done his best to reduce the cost in order to keep those terms (set up before his time?), but couldn't by the time they needed to deliver. In so far as I heard, they continued to reduce costs over a long time.

I read somewhere that the "supercharger" is an accumulation of 9 10kw chargers! The same that are installed inside the car!
If reducing cost is in the numbers, this is surely a way!
Comparing this with the price of a base Model S, I guess a cost of 50k for the supercharger is probably including installation!

Here the world map of current Tesla charging stations
OpenChargeMap Map (http://openchargemap.org/api/widgets/map/?maptitle=Tesla%20Charging%20Network&connectiontypeid=8&maxresults=5000&filtercontrols=,nearlocation,distance,country,connectiontype,level&iconset=SmallPins)

Made with this widget
OpenChargeMap Map Wizard (http://openchargemap.org/api/widgets/map/mapwizard.htm)

qwk

11-25-2011, 11:07 AM

Mostly because of the signed contracts. And the money.So would it have been better for Tesla to go BK, and then you have no support or warranty for a $100k car?

vfx

11-25-2011, 11:12 AM

So would it have been better for Tesla to go BK, and then you have no support or warranty for a $100k car?

You simply paint one scenario.

qwk

11-25-2011, 11:32 AM

You simply paint one scenario.Maybe because there is only one scenario for a small company bleeding money+selling product for a loss. It's called bankruptcy.

vfx

11-26-2011, 12:28 PM

Maybe because there is only one scenario for a small company bleeding money+selling product for a loss. It's called bankruptcy.

Or, other funding.

Norbert

11-26-2011, 01:03 PM

Or, other funding.

According to all we (or I) know, they almost came to the point of bankruptcy even then. There are limits to "other funding", especially for a company which can't make profit, also wouldn't be fair to those who then have to provide the funding (especially since Elon himself spent his last money on Tesla, even borrowed money from his friends at some point).

Kevin Sharpe

11-27-2011, 01:11 AM

Quick Charger location map CHAdeMO (non-Japanese)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=210740974077298891697.0004ac7e66a8121c75d8e&msa=0

dhrivnak

11-27-2011, 06:24 AM

Nissan maybe the first mover, but it has 't moved yet. Here I Tennessee Nissan has boldly moved. Every dealer has at least 2 level two chargers. For well over 100 public chargers. They are working with Cracker Barrel for smothered 30 chargers and a dozen high-speed level 3 chargers. I am finding dozens of level 2 chargers in hotels, parking lots and community centers. But I have yet to see a single Tesla charger.

Norbert

11-27-2011, 07:36 AM

They are working with Cracker Barrel for smothered 30 chargers and a dozen high-speed level 3 chargers.

I do believe Nissan is working on level 3, in fact I had trust in that earlier than others. However I also have trust in Tesla's plans, who said they will make more specific announcements in the Jan/Feb 2012 timeframe, as anything they have shown so far makes a lot of sense to me, in fact to me it displays the same sense of excellence and technical leadership as everything else from Tesla. On my tiny scale, I'd like to encourage and support Tesla in making progress in this direction, which I see as the most direct feasible path to showing the world that electric cars are capable of being the technology of the future, together with solar etc., which for me is the important part. This is what I think will facilitate change, the rest will happen more or less automatically.

vfx

11-27-2011, 10:04 AM

I do believe Nissan is working on level 3, in fact I had trust in that earlier than others. However I also have trust in Tesla's plans,...

Tesla follow-through is mission critical to the entire company's success. Not so with ICE makers who only have one EV in their lineup.

Mycroft

11-27-2011, 10:29 AM

Robert.Boston

11-27-2011, 05:53 PM

Tempus

11-29-2011, 07:01 AM

There was a report on the TM boards that a rep. at the Washington DC event said Tesla was going to install high speed DC chargers between DC and Boston as well as in California. If true, I think it would be a brilliant move!

i heard the same thing at the DC event this weekend. I think he specifically said they were targeting areas in and around DC, NY and Boston (which makes a lot of sense on the face of it). I also lobbied for VA and NC as that's the direction we tend to drive when we visit relatives. *grin*

cinergi

12-04-2011, 10:05 PM

i heard the same thing at the DC event this weekend. I think he specifically said they were targeting areas in and around DC, NY and Boston (which makes a lot of sense on the face of it). I also lobbied for VA and NC as that's the direction we tend to drive when we visit relatives. *grin*

+1 :smile: my parents are just south of Charlotte and I would LOVE to drive my Model S down there some time.

Kipernicus

12-20-2011, 03:01 PM

AnOutsider

12-20-2011, 04:37 PM

I think by handicapping the 40 they are saying "you might as well buy a Leaf".

Or, "if you plan on long trips, get a bigger capacity battery". Maybe their logic is that people who go for the smallest pack don't drive far and need supercharger access (technical hurdles aside)

Norbert

12-20-2011, 05:00 PM

EVNow

12-20-2011, 05:04 PM

stopcrazypp

12-20-2011, 05:08 PM

I'm sure this has to do with the charging speed in relation to the battery size and the number of battery cells. In relation to the 85 kWh pack, the Supercharger's 90 kW are only as much as 25 kW would be for the Leaf's 24 kWh battery, so it means less strain for the battery.
That's the main reason. But they could choose to run the charger half speed (45kW) to have lower impact, and it'll still be very close to matching the CHAdeMO speed (50kW). But it does mean that the car will be taking up the space for longer to charge the same amount of miles, unless they build two cables so two 40kWh cars can share the charger.

Assuming there isn't much hardware differences, I think Tesla can work out giving Supercharger access to 40kWh packs (even at a slower speed). Even if it means charging a bit extra, I'm sure people want the option.

Norbert

12-20-2011, 05:16 PM

That's the main reason. But they could choose to run the charger half speed (45kW) to have lower impact, and it'll still be very close to matching the CHAdeMO speed (50kW). But it does mean that the car will be taking up the space for longer to charge the same amount of miles, unless they build two cables so two 40kWh cars can share the charger.

Assuming there isn't much hardware differences, I think Tesla can work out giving Supercharger access to 40kWh packs (even at a slower speed). Even if it means charging a bit extra, I'm sure people want the option.

Yes, that and, as mentioned in the other thread, it would require more Superchargers closer together which might be much more difficult (aside from that the experience won't be as good). It does seem somewhat "natural" that long range and supercharging go together.

One more reason to hope for battery prices to come down in the future. And that selling/buying 85 kWh packs will really help make that happen.

EVNow

12-20-2011, 07:01 PM

Assuming there isn't much hardware differences, I think Tesla can work out giving Supercharger access to 40kWh packs (even at a slower speed). Even if it means charging a bit extra, I'm sure people want the option.
Right - Quick Change should be about the rate of charging, rather than "miles/hour". So, if the battery can take 2C, that would apply to all capacities and the 40kWh pack would be 80% charged in 30 minutes giving some 100 miles while 85kWh pack would give some 200 miles in the same time.

The supercharger would probably need the ability to pump in different amounts of power depending on the pack SOC - so pumping 40kW for the lower capacity pack shouldn't be difficult.

GSP

12-20-2011, 07:19 PM

..... It does seem somewhat "natural" that long range and supercharging go together.

Japan's experience with ChadeMo suggests that DC fast charging is a "natural" for short range cars, like the 16 kWh i. Tesla is planning to use fast charge for taking 300 mile cars on road trips. Japan is using fast charge to drive around town with 60 mile cars. I would really love to have fast charge (and chargers where I work, shop, and eat) for my 35 mile car.

So in the end Tesla is right, but so are Mitsubishi and Nissan.

GSP

Norbert

12-20-2011, 07:40 PM

So in the end Tesla is right, but so are Mitsubishi and Nissan.

Yes, a different set of options and trade-offs dealing with the same problem(s). I do hope that Mitsubishi and Nissan will be able to build a fast charging network also in the US.

I'd think that Tesla spent a lot of time thinking about the options available to them, before making this decision. After all, this goes to the heart of the matter.

dmckinstry

12-20-2011, 08:04 PM

neroden

12-20-2011, 11:01 PM

I'm a big fan of this news! The Boston/DC corridor is the most densely populated band of the country, so this expansion has a high benefit:cost ratio. It also provides a core from which to build outward. It's instructive to look at how the railroads were built out in the 1880s, with the initial build focused on the northeast corridor, with strong westward links to Chicago, Charlotte, etc. Although demographics have shifted some, playing from a strong core in the northeast makes sense.

Now, Tesla, please build a bit further to the north, adding SuperChargers at the I-95 Kennebunk rest stop and on I-95 near Augusta. This will open up the tourist-heavy regions of Maine to the Tesla, an area that is currently a wasteland of EV recharging. (Tesla owners welcome to charge at my place in South Bristol, Maine, from May to October.)

Another wasteland is upstate NY (west of the Hudson), which is even short on 50 amp campgrounds. DC to Boston is all very well as a corridor to build out from, but there *are* public charging points and there *are* alternatives to driving if you're staying entirely within the, uh, Amtrak Northeast Corridor. The "building out" to the north, south, and west of it needs to be done ASAP. NY to Chicago, folks, NY to Chicago....

Doug_G

12-20-2011, 11:07 PM

Another wasteland is upstate NY (west of the Hudson), which is even short on 50 amp campgrounds. DC to Boston is all very well as a corridor to build out from, but there *are* public charging points and there *are* alternatives to driving if you're staying entirely within the, uh, Amtrak Northeast Corridor. The "building out" to the north, south, and west of it needs to be done ASAP. NY to Chicago, folks, NY to Chicago....

Yeah, I'm trying to plan a trip next spring down to Suffern, NY (southeast corner) from Ottawa, Ontario. The route does look like a charging wasteland. I have a friend in Binghamton who has offered a charge, but I'm not certain I can get that far. Anyone know of charging options in upstate NY?

neroden

12-21-2011, 12:05 AM

Yeah, I'm trying to plan a trip next spring down to Suffern, NY (southeast corner) from Ottawa, Ontario. The route does look like a charging wasteland. I have a friend in Binghamton who has offered a charge, but I'm not certain I can get that far. Anyone know of charging options in upstate NY?

There existed, at one time, one Roadster owner in Buffalo, who mentioned his existence on the Tesla forum IIRC. Find him.

Research found me exactly one 50 amp campground outside Syracuse -- to the east. I'm not sure you can make it that far either. (There's another one near Binghamton, but you're set in Binghamton.)

Pretty much a wasteland. If those don't work out, there are a fair number of 30 amp campgrounds, and that's it.

Norbert

12-21-2011, 01:37 AM

BTW, assuming that the cost of the second charger, $1,500, includes a bit of profit... the just announced prices mean that the hardware cost of a Supercharger might be around $12k - $15k.

Kevin Sharpe

12-21-2011, 02:27 AM

the just announced prices mean that the hardware cost of a Supercharger might be around $12k - $15k.looking expensive.... Nissan's CHAdeMO chargers are selling at 598500 JPY (~$7500) today;

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/111130-01-e.html

Norbert

12-21-2011, 02:41 AM

looking expensive.... Nissan's CHAdeMO chargers are selling at 598500 JPY (~$7500) today;

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/111130-01-e.html

That's the indoor base spec. The outdoor version would then be $10K. That's for 50 kW (rated input is 49kW). If you multiply by 90kW/50kW, you get $18k. So actually more expensive.

Doug_G

12-21-2011, 08:27 AM

There existed, at one time, one Roadster owner in Buffalo, who mentioned his existence on the Tesla forum IIRC. Find him.

Thanks, but Buffalo is way off my route. I'm in Eastern Ontario, not Southern. Ottawa is to the north of Ogdensburg, although I'd go a little to the west and drive down 81. There's a KOA in Ganonoque where I can top up before crossing the border.

Research found me exactly one 50 amp campground outside Syracuse -- to the east. I'm not sure you can make it that far either. (There's another one near Binghamton, but you're set in Binghamton.)

I can get there from Ganonoque. If it's not too far East, that may be a viable solution. Where is it, exactly?

(Sorry this is getting a little off-topic, but at least it's about charging on highways...)

tomsax

12-22-2011, 12:23 PM

On the new options page it says supercharger access is Not Available for the 40kWh battery! Even for the 60 it is "TBD".

If you want to take the car on any significant roadtrip you really need to have the 85. I think by handicapping the 40 they are saying "you might as well buy a Leaf".

This seems really bad to me. The bigger the battery, the less you need quick charging. For most people, road trips are rare which makes it silly to invest in a gigantic 300-mile battery pack that you only use 10% to 20% of the capacity a regular basis, while it loses capacity with both time and miles. Is it really worth it to own such a giant battery for the rare road trip? Unless you do it a lot, just rent a gas car for those trips.

The LEAF is a terrible road trip car, even with DCQC. In Tesla terms, the LEAF has a range of about 85 "ideal miles", which means you have to stop for 30 minutes for every hour of driving. That's just painful. The 160-mile Model S is a huge improvement over that, but only if it has access to DCQC. Without DCQC, it's only good for local driving, so it's just a LEAF at twice the price.

dpeilow

12-22-2011, 12:33 PM

Nail. Head. Hit.

Norbert

12-22-2011, 12:40 PM

Without DCQC, it's only good for local driving, so it's just a LEAF at twice the price.

Quite, and it has the range with home charging only (more or less), which with a Leaf you get only with the one recommended/convenient QC per day, provided there is a charger where you need it.

Robert.Boston

12-22-2011, 05:14 PM

tomsax

12-22-2011, 06:35 PM

This same logic would lead you to the conclusion that a Honda Fit and a BMW 330 are good substitutes. They aren't; even if it's only an "around town" car, a Model S offers a level of comfort, style, finish, space, etc. that a Leaf doesn't begin to approach.

Have you driven a LEAF? It's a pretty sweet ride. It's comfortable and roomy. The controls are well thought out, with plenty of tactile buttons that let you do things without taking your eyes off the road. With the cold weather package you get the usual heated seats (front and rear), plus a heated steering wheel, the most decadent luxury I've ever had in a car.

I'm not saying the Model S isn't a nicer car, perhaps it is, but removing DCQC (and turn-by-turn navigation, and automatic keyless entry) from the base model moves it a whole lot closer to a LEAF. I find that disappointing.

ckessel

01-22-2012, 03:57 PM

Has Tesla announced where the super chargers will be? I've scanned the thread, but didn't see the answer.

dsm363

01-22-2012, 04:22 PM

Has Tesla announced where the super chargers will be? I've scanned the thread, but didn't see the answer.

Looks like the first one will be at Harris Ranch from the article linked below
Bucking Trends, Tesla Goes It Alone on Plug Design - NYTimes.com (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/bucking-trends-tesla-goes-it-alone-on-plug-design/)

The company has also designed its own D.C. fast-charge unit, capable of delivering 480 volts, which would be called the Supercharger. Mr. Musk said that the first Supercharger would be installed along Interstate 5 at the Harris Ranch in Coalinga, Calif., roughly halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco, within the next three or four months.

Norbert

01-22-2012, 04:51 PM

Has Tesla announced where the super chargers will be? I've scanned the thread, but didn't see the answer.

The announcement is said to be this month or February. So far only Harris Ranch is a known location.

neroden

01-22-2012, 05:32 PM

Has Tesla announced where the super chargers will be? I've scanned the thread, but didn't see the answer.

The answer is "no, Tesla has not announced where the super chargers will be".

There was a statement that the first one would be between SF and LA. That's all we've actually heard out of Tesla; no idea where the second one will be!

TEG

01-22-2012, 06:05 PM

Tesla To Launch Rapid Charging Station Between San Francisco and LA (http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/11/tesla-launch-rapid-charging-station-between-san-francisco-la/)

...Tesla planned to install super charging stations along major freeways such as the I-5 between Canada and Mexico. Clearly, Tesla plans for SuperChargers to be along the I-5, which would make it much easier for Model S owners to go on a road trip...

neroden

01-22-2012, 06:06 PM

I can get there from Ganonoque. If it's not too far East, that may be a viable solution. Where is it, exactly?

(Sorry this is getting a little off-topic, but at least it's about charging on highways...)

OK, my research is actually finding more places than last time. *But most of them are only open seasonally*.

The one I was thinking of is Green Lakes State Park, in Fayetteville. It has a number of 50 amp camping spots. Two state parks in the Finger Lakes area also have some 50 amp service: Filmore Glen (in Moravia) and Watkins Glen. *But they all have May-October seasons*, so you'd better not be planning to travel during the fall, winter, or spring.

There's also A KOA further north with 50 amp service. 1000 Islands / Association Island | Camping in New York | KOA Campgrounds
(http://koa.com/campgrounds/association-island/) Again, May-October.

This realization caused me to try a different filter on my searches. "Year round" :wink:

Frost Ridge Campground in Le Roy appears to be year-round and have 50 amp service, but it's west of Rochester.

I haven't found anything else good for November-April yet.

(Perhaps this should be moved to a more suitable thread?)

Doug_G

01-22-2012, 08:45 PM

OK, my research is actually finding more places than last time. *But most of them are only open seasonally*.

The one I was thinking of is Green Lakes State Park, in Fayetteville. It has a number of 50 amp camping spots. Two state parks in the Finger Lakes area also have some 50 amp service: Filmore Glen (in Moravia) and Watkins Glen. *But they all have May-October seasons*, so you'd better not be planning to travel during the fall, winter, or spring.

There's also A KOA further north with 50 amp service. 1000 Islands / Association Island | Camping in New York | KOA Campgrounds
(http://koa.com/campgrounds/association-island/) Again, May-October.

This realization caused me to try a different filter on my searches. "Year round" :wink:

Frost Ridge Campground in Le Roy appears to be year-round and have 50 amp service, but it's west of Rochester.

I haven't found anything else good for November-April yet.

(Perhaps this should be moved to a more suitable thread?)

Thanks for the info... and yeah, a thread on "Charging in NY" would be very helpful!

I've been wondering if there were some Nissan dealerships in upstate NY that would be friendly enough to allow a Tesla visitor...

neroden

01-22-2012, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the info... and yeah, a thread on "Charging in NY" would be very helpful!
Make that "upstate NY" because "NYC and Long Island" is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

I've been wondering if there were some Nissan dealerships in upstate NY that would be friendly enough to allow a Tesla visitor...

Hmm, good question. I'm not sure how many Nissan dealerships in upstate actually have suitably fast charging equipment, though; I don't think the one in Ithaca does, though I may be able to check. The Leaf rollout is actually kind of slow in some ways. It's easy enough to find the Syracuse Nissan dealers on the web though; if you call them up, do tell us what you find out.

Larry Chanin

01-24-2012, 05:47 PM

This article is a bit of a teaser.

Tesla in final stages of Model S prep; readying Supercharger network for road trips (http://green.autoblog.com/2012/01/24/tesla-in-final-stages-of-model-s-prep-readying-supercharger-net/)

"The solution to when people want to take a road trip for the 300- and 240-mile range packs is going to be charging and supercharging," Reyes said, describing the network Tesla is talking about building. "If you look at an 'H' system [in the U.S.], the most popular routes on the west coast, the east coast and then cross-country, and then you have little spoke systems along the way, you pretty much cover the country with not that many systems," he said.

How many make up the "not that many" that it would take to blanket the country "pretty well"? Reyes said it's fewer than 30 locations. Once this basic network is in place, more out-of-the-way routes could get Superchargers. Reyes notes that the cost to put in one of these Supercharging stations is "a fraction" of what it costs to put in a new gas station. Some possible routes? D.C. to New York; D.C. to Boston and San Francisco to Los Angeles, to name just three. "Suddenly, the whole 'I can't take road trips,' and range anxiety and all these red herring arguments are essentially obliterated at that point," Reyes asked.

Of course the big question is when does Tesla intend to install those 30 or so Superchargers and where.

Larry

Norbert

01-24-2012, 07:33 PM

I wonder whether "fewer than 30" is enough for a complete "H". I need to look it up, but I think originally it was about 40 locations that Elon had in mind. But however many Tesla starts with, the important part is this: "Once this basic network is in place, more out-of-the-way routes could get Superchargers."

dsm363

01-25-2012, 01:45 AM

I assume those initial locations will completely leave out most of the midwest and south. I wonder if the east west route will be I-80. I really don't see how 30 locations is a good enough rollout though.

richkae

01-25-2012, 06:22 AM

Vancouver BC to San Diego is 1400 miles
Boston to Miami is 1500 miles
San Francisco to Washington DC is 2800 miles
5700 miles total.
30 * 190 = 5700

jcstp

01-25-2012, 07:57 AM

They updated the article!

30 superchargers are enough to cover the coasts, not the country!

rabar10

01-25-2012, 08:57 AM

Thanks jcstp! Revised section of the article (emulating strikethrough with color here):

"If you look at an 'H' system [in the U.S.], the most popular routes on the west coast, the east coast and then cross-country, and then you have little spoke systems along the way, you pretty much cover the country with not that many systems," he said.

How many make up the "not that many" that it would take to blanket the country coasts "pretty well"? Reyes said it's fewer than 30 locations. (*UPDATE: Reyes emailed to say this number is just to cover the coasts.) Once this basic network is in place, more out-of-the-way routes could get Superchargers.

neroden

01-25-2012, 06:39 PM

I assume those initial locations will completely leave out most of the midwest and south. I wonder if the east west route will be I-80.
I-80 would be pretty decent. NY-Chicago is a pretty fundamental route. Though arguably I-70 needs it more, the I-80/I-90 overlap section is one of the major transportation corridors of the nation.

I actually don't think starting with the coasts is wise as a rollout, let alone starting with the West Coast first. The West Coast already has chargers available; California can be covered by what, three, four superchargers, and then they'd be pouring money into California-Oregon drives, which is a small market. The East Coast has alternative transportation for north-south trips.

The cross-country routes through the Midwest and South, on the other hand, need chargers badly, and are full of large cities. I-80 would be a good start. Then I-10. This diagram is convenient for seeing the network shape on the Interstates, should you wish to plot out your own priorities: 75 - A Diagram of the Eisenhower Interstate System | Strange Maps | Big Think (http://bigthink.com/ideas/21124)

But Tesla seems committed to this order of rollout. Hope they get around to the useful chargers soon. :confused:

doug

01-25-2012, 07:17 PM

Well at least for the next several months, the only people using Tesla Superchargers will be Tesla. So it makes sense for them to prioritize routes that they are likely to use (e.g., between SF and LA).

dadaleus

01-26-2012, 12:22 AM

If one is at Harris Ranch, there must be another planned around Valencia, CA. Harris Ranch to South San Diego is 330 miles. Valencia would be about halfway between on I5.

Personally, this is great news as this is right on my most common long distance route.

Larry Chanin

01-26-2012, 02:23 AM

I actually don't think starting with the coasts is wise as a rollout, let alone starting with the West Coast first.

Hi,

In my opinion initially Tesla should put their Superchargers on major highways between those locations with the highest customer density.

Here's an approximation of the distribution of Model S reservation holders.

http://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=295135

Obviously Tesla has better visibility of where all of their customers are located, including the Roadster owners, but based on this cross section of Model S reservation holders, generally starting with the coasts makes sense for the initial roll-out.

Larry

Doug_G

01-26-2012, 03:02 PM

Hi,
Here's an approximation of the distribution of Model S reservation holders.

It's very approximate. You'd think there were hardly any reservations in Toronto, but I know that there are more reservations there than anywhere else in Canada.

Larry Chanin

01-26-2012, 03:35 PM

It's very approximate. You'd think there were hardly any reservations in Toronto, but I know that there are more reservations there than anywhere else in Canada.

Hi Doug,

Agreed, but the point I was trying to make was that Tesla does know where the reservations are with precision. If they say they are going to start on the coasts I'm inclined to believe they have the data to support the fact that those locations are where most of their customers are located.

Larry

Doug_G

01-26-2012, 05:30 PM

Hi Doug,

Agreed, but the point I was trying to make was that Tesla does know where the reservations are with precision. If they say they are going to start on the coasts I'm inclined to believe they have the data to support the fact that those locations are where most of their customers are located.

Larry

Agreed. But I sure hope they put a couple on the 401.

jcstp

01-27-2012, 01:41 AM

I-80 would be pretty decent. NY-Chicago is a pretty fundamental route. Though arguably I-70 needs it more, the I-80/I-90 overlap section is one of the major transportation corridors of the nation.

I actually don't think starting with the coasts is wise as a rollout, let alone starting with the West Coast first. The West Coast already has chargers available; California can be covered by what, three, four superchargers, and then they'd be pouring money into California-Oregon drives, which is a small market. The East Coast has alternative transportation for north-south trips.

The cross-country routes through the Midwest and South, on the other hand, need chargers badly, and are full of large cities. I-80 would be a good start. Then I-10. This diagram is convenient for seeing the network shape on the Interstates, should you wish to plot out your own priorities: 75 - A Diagram of the Eisenhower Interstate System | Strange Maps | Big Think (http://bigthink.com/ideas/21124)

But Tesla seems committed to this order of rollout. Hope they get around to the useful chargers soon. :confused:

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/fullinterstatemap-web.jpg

Ideal map to find the most important points to put chargers!

neroden

01-27-2012, 03:20 AM

Hi,

In my opinion initially Tesla should put their Superchargers on major highways between those locations with the highest customer density.

Obviously Tesla should try to serve the people in the areas with the highest customer density first... but I don't think that necessarily means putting the chargers between locations with with the highest customer density. You have to pay attention to the trip behavior of the people in each location. The extreme example is Hawaiians, who don't need any superchargers because they'll never drive far enough.

Yes, SF-LA seems like a wise starting point, as it is a popular car route. But what would be the next most important route for people in California? Probably LA-Las Vegas, not northward to Portland.

jcstp

01-27-2012, 06:25 AM

if they put a supercharger in Barstow, I think it's stategecly on the route from LA to las vegas/flagstaff-albuquerque

doug

01-27-2012, 10:19 AM

Yes, SF-LA seems like a wise starting point, as it is a popular car route. But what would be the next most important route for people in California?
SF to Tahoe

rolosrevenge

01-27-2012, 10:45 AM

strider

01-27-2012, 11:54 AM

SF to Tahoe
Yeah, I was pondering this myself... From my house (mid-peninsula) to Truckee is 215 miles (obviously a lot of uphill so would likely need to charge). An HPC or supercharger in Sac would help here. We travel 580 East to I-5 and then up to Sac so anything West of Sac on 80 is useless to us.

ElSupreme

01-27-2012, 12:25 PM

I hope Greenville, SC gets one. Atlanta to Charlotte is really the only long drive that I want to do.

I could tell my Tampa and Houston friends that I have to fly.

dmckinstry

01-27-2012, 02:09 PM

I heard from the sales rep in the Bellevue Tesla store that they will put one in Ellensburg (about 110 miles from Seattle on I-90) where the current HPC is located. That's the deal maker for me since my parents live another 60 miles east. The 230 mi pack will easily get me over there driving 75 mph with a 20 minute rest stop at the super charger (since the wife and kids prefer a rest stop rather than a 3 hour straight drive)

Ellensburg is good for me, as it would get me to Seattle from Spokane with a breakfast or lunch break there. However, I also need to get to CA from WA, so we have to have at least two between Seattle and Sacramento.

Robert.Boston

01-28-2012, 09:04 AM

Do you suppose Ellensburg is a one-off to allow the Spokane--Seattle run? Or is this the beginning of a:

Route across I-90? Seems unlikely to me at this point, as there's nothing sizeable, for a long time, on I-90.
Route across I-84? Build from Ellensburg to Hermiston, OR to Ontario, OR (near Boise) to Twin Falls, ID to Ogden, UT, and you've linked Salt Lake City, Boise and Seattle. Then Rock Spring, WY to Rawlins, WY to Cheyenne, WY to Denver, CO. (From Rock Springs WY, it's 180 miles to Jackson WY)

Mycroft

01-28-2012, 09:26 AM

fwiw, I think Ellensburg is just to tie eastern WA to the west. Of course eventually we'll have a northern route across I-90, (I wish it could be sooner of course), but as mentioned, for population density reasons, a southerly route cross-country is the likely candidate to be first.

dmckinstry

01-28-2012, 11:11 AM

Route across I-90? Seems unlikely to me at this point, as there's nothing sizeable, for a long time, on I-90.

The next city of even moderate size is Missoula, MT, about 200 miles from Spokane. Montana is so spread out you're not going to get any stops near the 150 mile distance. Of course, if you want to build your own string of restaurants.....

Larry Chanin

01-29-2012, 02:31 PM

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/fullinterstatemap-web.jpg

Ideal map to find the most important points to put chargers!

Yes, this is a very useful map, but it is not ideal.

For example, folks wanting to make the trip from Fort Myers, Florida to Miami, Florida will not first drive 2.5 hours out of their way North to Tampa, then take Rt. 4 East to Daytona Beach, then drive down to Miami. They will take I-75 South and then across Alligator Alley East to Fort Lauderdale then South to Miami. This of course doesn't pertain just to folks in Fort Myers. Folks generally don't drive North to go South, :wink: so most people South of Tampa are going to drive South and cross the state at another West to East arterial other than Rt 4.

In other words I'm suggesting that they need a Supercharger on Alligator Alley (I-75) even though its not shown on the simplified Interstate map.

Larry

dsm363

01-29-2012, 03:40 PM

I think Telsa needs to deploy their network quickly. They decided to go it alone with their standard and need to step up. In Texas, we could start with 4 or 5 chargers to cover travel between the 4 major cities. I hope they don't delay other installations for a few years.

Lloyd

05-06-2012, 07:23 PM

I don't believe anyone posted this yet. Telsa used to state that Supercharging could attain 80% charge in 45 minutes. That has changed slightly to 50% in 30 minutes.

Charging
Plug In Anywhere

Model S comes standard with everything you need to plug into the most common 240-volt outlet, standard 120-volt wall outlets and public stations. With a High Power Wall Connector and Twin Chargers, Model S can be recharged at the rate of 62 miles range per hour. A fifty-percent charge in thirty minutes can be achieved with a Tesla Supercharger

vfx

05-06-2012, 07:46 PM

The 62 MPHC is not constant. I saw that at one point in a charge cycle the rate can get as fast a 230 MPHC.

dsm363

05-13-2012, 07:58 AM

Rifleman

05-14-2012, 11:57 AM

We'll have to see what the announcement is in June. I really hope there are two chargers per location and an additional 80A HPC. We'll see.

Thats what I am hoping for as well (although 2 80A HPC's would be better, particularly for us 40 kWh'ers. That way if one is taken or out of service, we are not stranded.)

ElSupreme

05-14-2012, 12:10 PM

We'll have to see what the announcement is in June. I really hope there are two chargers per location and an additional 80A HPC. We'll see.

I think this is likely. You use the Supercharger to get to 75% full, then top off with the 80A HPC if needed. Not to mention throwing a little love to the 40kWh people, as Rifleman pointed out.

stopcrazypp

05-14-2012, 12:28 PM