View Full Version : Automatic creep makes it impossible to come to a smooth stop
Stuart
10-04-2011, 09:55 PM
Below is a suggestion I made to the good people at Tesla. They requested I post it it to the teslamotorsclub forum because they're interested in seeing how much support there is from other people.
I like to drive well. One of the things I was taught when I was learning to drive is that if you're in control of your vehicle then you should be able to bring it to a smooth stop without any perceptible lurch, by gently letting off the brake pressure as the vehicle slows down to a smooth stop. In a manual transmission car if you depress the clutch pedal and brake properly you can do this.
For design reasons I won't speculate about, the Tesla Roadster was designed to emulate an automatic transmission. With no pedals pressed, if it is in drive, it will slowly creep forward, presumably to remind the driver that it is still in drive. However skillful you are on the brake pedal, if the car's motor is trying to make it go, it becomes impossible to bring it to a smooth stop without a small lurch.
I have read discussions about disabling this "automatic creep", but I'm realistic enough to realize there are probably good reasons Tesla wouldn't want to do that. (I have also read discussions about hacking firmware to disable the "automatic creep", but I don't want to do that.)
This led me to wonder if there could be a way that car could let the driver stop smoothly without having to disable the "automatic creep" and a compromise occurred to me: If my foot is on the brake pedal, and the brake lights are illuminated, then the car's electronics know that I'm trying to bring the car to a stop, so why are the car's electronics fighting me and trying to make it go? Would it be possible to make the car's electronics disable the "automatic creep" as long as the brake pedal is depressed? That would allow the driver to bring it to a smooth stop. If the brake pedal is then released then the "automatic creep" would resume, to remind the driver that it is still in drive.
Does that sound like a sensible compromise, to allow good drivers to drive well, while still retaining the safety requirements of "automatic creep" so that driver's can't forget that the car is still in drive?
Related: Who wants the Creep removed? (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5516-Who-wants-the-quot-Creep-quot-removed?p=66224&viewfull=1#post66224)
Some cars may keep a little power to the drivetrain to keep the gears "loaded up" so when you start moving there is no "clunk" from the gearbox.
Stuart
10-04-2011, 10:58 PM
This sounds like a personal problem;)
Yes, I plead guilty to that charge. I am probably guilty of being too much of a perfectionist, and not just in my driving habits. I have seen lots of "creep" vs. "don't creep" discussion, with suggestions for mode settings to choose one or the other (ugh!), but what I hadn't seen before was a proposal that might make both camps happy at the same time. What do you think of the "creep, but not if my foot's on the brake pedal" idea?
Eberhard
10-04-2011, 11:03 PM
Stuart, you have simple push the "N" Button, then the creep is being switched off as well.
Stuart
10-04-2011, 11:22 PM
Stuart, you have simple push the "N" Button, then the creep is being switched off as well.
Yes, understood. In my 2008 model it's a gear-shifter rather than a pushbutton, but the idea is the same. Still, futzing with the car's controls is an unnecessary hassle. I work at Apple, and we put a lot of thought into user interface. Surely when my foot's on the brake pedal the car electronics should be smart enough to know that my intention is to stop, not creep forward?
Dragon
10-04-2011, 11:35 PM
I honestly don't see the problem here. The creep is very minimal and if you brake you'll stop regardless if there is a creep or not?
Another 'creepy discussion': The Torque Pedal (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/380-The-Torque-Pedal?p=37496&viewfull=1#post37496)
meloccom
10-05-2011, 12:28 AM
Actually, there is precedent to this. My A160 Merc has the auto clutch feature and it , the computer, releases the clutch when you press the brake pedal at low 'manouvering' speeds giving a similar effect to Stuart's idea for the roadster. When you release the brake pedal, such as when manouvering or at traffic lights it has a creep feature.
I like this feature and the fact that it is cancelled out by the brake but additionally you need to add an additional rule to overide yours when using 2 pedals for tricky situations like reverse parking up a hill on a road with strong camber. In my Merc I have to be very aware of it's tendancy to speed up when i roll down the camber into the spot if I use 1 pedal.
AnOutsider
10-05-2011, 07:37 AM
Not a horrible idea, as I find myself wanting to drive as smoothly as possible as well (which is near impossible in AT cars that creep). As for why Tesla added it in the first place, it could be the whole "keeping the gears engaged" mentioned, or maybe an effort to make the cars feel as close to "normal" as possible to lower barrier of entry for people new to EVs?
Mycroft
10-05-2011, 08:35 AM
I agree 100%. If your foot's on the brake, there should be no creep. It doesn't make sense. The brake light goes off, then start creeping.
VolkerP
10-05-2011, 08:43 AM
I second that. Mimicking inefficient ICE behavior should be dumped from a 2nd generation EV.
Really thinking about this it's a very good refinement of what Tesla is doing and is right up the ally of them trying to make a car that is the best on the road.
So the problem is when we are coming to a stop at the very last 1 or 2 miles an hour the creep takes over changing regen's somewhat linear downward speed ramp to a straight line speed before it can complete it's path to a complete stop. Since there is no way to predict exactly when it that flat line will "jump in" you can't react fast enough and change your braking amount to the new speed to achieve an ultra smooth stop at that very very end of the braking.
Another solution would be to not have creep come on till after the car comes to a complete stop BUT,
As a certified "creep hater" what I don't like about it is when sitting at a stop light and you relax your brake foot a bit the car starts lurching forward. Even with the brake light still on.
So yes, your idea works for me as a solution that is closer to what I want than we have now. Who knows, I may even like it in practice.
As long as the brake lights are on, creep is disabled. It would make for ultimately smoother final end of braking and make the car not be too anxious to move forward when slightly letting off on the brake while stopped.
I find this to be superior to an AT ICE car. Tesla should implement this on all cars past and future.
Good thinking!
ckessel
10-05-2011, 08:56 AM
I agree 100%. If your foot's on the brake, there should be no creep. It doesn't make sense. The brake light goes off, then start creeping.
This gets my vote as well. In a traffic jam where it's little bits of stop and go or at a long line for a stop sign, creep is nice when you take your foot off the brake (about the only case were an manual is more painful than an AT for me). However, if the break is depressed at all then I don't want creep fighting it.
hcsharp
10-05-2011, 08:57 AM
I think their reasons for doing it were primarily to emulate the behavior of an automatic transmission that most people are used to. I think another reason is that they want to keep the electric motor turning very slowly. An easy way to implement that is with the creep feature. To start a variable speed induction motor turning is a little tricky and easier with a known load. The PEM needs to get feedback from the motor to know how fast it's turning in order to control it properly. The first few milliseconds when it starts turning it has to guess at some of the normal feedback that it doesn't have yet. So if they have it spinning at a very minimal speed it's easier to just add power and get the car rolling vs starting the motor turning, then adding power. They could have the clutch disengage completely if your foot is on the brake while still keeping the motor spinning very slowly but that might be harder to implement.
Not a horrible idea, as I find myself wanting to drive as smoothly as possible as well (which is near impossible in AT cars that creep). As for why Tesla added it in the first place, it could be the whole "keeping the gears engaged" mentioned, or maybe an effort to make the cars feel as close to "normal" as possible to lower barrier of entry for people new to EVs?
NigelM
10-05-2011, 09:15 AM
Fine for considering only the stop; what about pulling way on an incline? I learned to drive in the UK where the dreaded "hill start" was part of the driving test but you got very quickly used to feeling the bite point (cars were all manual transmission back then). Is there no concern that without creep the car will roll backwards before you can accelerate away?
I think their reasons for doing it were primarily to emulate the behavior of an automatic transmission that most people are used to. I think another reason is that they want to keep the electric motor turning very slowly. An easy way to implement that is with the creep feature. To start a variable speed induction motor turning is a little tricky and easier with a known load. The PEM needs to get feedback from the motor to know how fast it's turning in order to control it properly. The first few milliseconds when it starts turning it has to guess at some of the normal feedback that it doesn't have yet. So if they have it spinning at a very minimal speed it's easier to just add power and get the car rolling vs starting the motor turning, then adding power. They could have the clutch disengage completely if your foot is on the brake while still keeping the motor spinning very slowly but that might be harder to implement.
No they argue that it's for safety. The idea that you can get out of the car while it's on was unacceptable to them.
I don't think Tesla has any start up electric motor issues. Their control software and feedback encoders should completely negate this as a problem. It's not a washing machine.
Clutch?
davidrmay
10-05-2011, 10:00 AM
Definitely has my vote. not a fan of the creep. seems silly.
jkirkebo
10-05-2011, 10:22 AM
No they argue that it's for safety. The idea that you can get out of the car while it's on was unacceptable to them.
That is easy to fix. Just activate the parking brake if the drivers butt is removed from the seat when car is stationary ;)
Personally, I like creep. It makes it easier and safer to maneuver slowly in tight locations, like in parking garages.
Sparrow
10-05-2011, 12:50 PM
With your brake on and the car stopped, I don't think there is any creep anyways. When I look at my amp draw in my 1.5 when stopped it reads 1. When I let up on the brake and creep starts the amp draw is 3. I've got to believe that Tesla has already shut the creep off when you have the car stopped and your foot is on the brake. Not sure you can tell whether creep is on while coming to a stop, but I would have assumed so until this conversation started.
With your brake on and the car stopped, I don't think there is any creep anyways. When I look at my amp draw in my 1.5 when stopped it reads 1. When I let up on the brake and creep starts the amp draw is 3. I've got to believe that Tesla has already shut the creep off when you have the car stopped and your foot is on the brake. Not sure you can tell whether creep is on while coming to a stop, but I would have assumed so until this conversation started.
I agree that (on the roadster) the creep disappears while your foot is on the brake pedal. This can be seen by the power draw. So a smooth stop should be possible, and indeed as far as I know I always manage smooth stops in the roadster. Also, a few posts back, someone mentioned a clutch; there is no clutch in either car; when stopped, the motor is doing 0 rpm.
Doug_G
10-05-2011, 02:25 PM
Yes, the Roadster turns off the motor when you're at a full stop with the brake engaged. Find a hill that's just steep enough to negate the creep, and you'll see there is more current draw when you're off the brake than when on.
But this proposal is different; it's suggesting that as soon as you push the brake the creep would be turned off, not just when the car is stopped. Lift off the brake and the creep will reactivate (as it does now). I do believe I would vote in favor of the proposal.
Sparrow
10-05-2011, 02:35 PM
Certainly can't be any creep when your car is doing regen braking so it would seem that at most this could only be a problem during very very low speed driving.
DZCPA
10-05-2011, 03:04 PM
I like the creep feature. Works great in slow traffic.
shark2k
10-05-2011, 06:35 PM
Fine for considering only the stop; what about pulling way on an incline? I learned to drive in the UK where the dreaded "hill start" was part of the driving test but you got very quickly used to feeling the bite point (cars were all manual transmission back then). Is there no concern that without creep the car will roll backwards before you can accelerate away?
This is an easy fix as car manufacturer's have a solution for MT ICE's. Some cars have a Hill Assist feature which applies the brake for a second (or something like that) to prevent roll back for when you transfer from the brake to the gas and shift into gear. I believe even some AT ICE's have that, so I don't see why Tesla couldn't implement that in their cars.
As to creep, when I drove Slackjaw's Roadster last Saturday I'm pretty sure I was able to bring the car to a smooth stop a good portion of the time. If I didn't it was probably because I was trying to come to a stop a little quicker. Of course I haven't had nearly as much drive time as you guys. But as someone who drives a MT ICE, I would much prefer no creep and hill assist. I also don't see why (if Tesla did implement the creep for safety reasons) they coudn't add a sensor in the driver seat so that when it is not depressed for x amount of time the car could shut off or make some audible noise to let the driver know the car was on and/or it was turned off. Depending on how the car is set up I don't see why it wouldn't be able to send a text and/or e-mail to let the person know.
That's just my 2 cents and how I would prefer it for when I can eventually get a Tesla.
-Shark2k
howabout2
10-05-2011, 07:38 PM
Stuart, I am absolutely, without-a-doubt in agreement with you. The automatic creep must be either user-selectable via a preference or in any other fashion possible to override. Having driven a MINI E for two years, I am addicted to the smooth stop possible without creep and privately anguish every time I can't get my wife's automatic ICE to do the same.
Okay, I exaggerate a bit, but in seriousness, I do find driving an ICE annoying due to the creep and hate that little lurch when the brakes finally seize the vehicle. The Model S needs a preference to turn off the creep.
Stuart
10-05-2011, 09:45 PM
I honestly don't see the problem here. The creep is very minimal and if you brake you'll stop regardless if there is a creep or not?
Yes, the car will stop, but it takes more brake pressure to compete with the motor trying to drive it forward. Notice I said I want to be able to bring the car to a smooth stop. For people who've only every driven automatics and have never experienced a car that can stop without a lurch, I understand that it's hard to sympathize with what I'm asking for.
cinergi
10-05-2011, 09:57 PM
There's a nuance here that I think some people are missing. I agree with Stuart.
Creep shuts off at about < 1 MPH and when that happens and you're on the brake, the car comes to a sudden jerky stop. It happens to me every time I casually come to a stop. It's poor experience and lacks refinement.
Creep doesn't need to be shut off when the car comes to a complete stop. It could be left on for a second after a complete stop, or just left on at all times. There's not that much power flowing so there's so little power consumed and heat generated, it can't possibly be an issue.
I wish I'd brought it up while I was talking to the engineers at the factory!
Stuart
10-05-2011, 09:57 PM
Fine for considering only the stop; what about pulling way on an incline? I learned to drive in the UK where the dreaded "hill start" was part of the driving test but you got very quickly used to feeling the bite point (cars were all manual transmission back then). Is there no concern that without creep the car will roll backwards before you can accelerate away?
That's what the hand brake is for! Americans call it the "emergency brake" and think I'm weird for using it every time I stop at traffic lights, but anyone who passed the "hill start" part of the UK driving test (especially in a manual car) should know how to use it. In a manual car, if you don't use the hand brake, then when you move your right foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator (remember your left foot is occupied pressing the clutch pedal) you're going to roll backwards on a hill if you're not using the hand brake. It's second nature to me, but I'm used to driving manual cars. For me, the skill of balancing the clutch, accelerator and hand brake so that you can move off smoothly (without rolling back at all, even on a steep hill) is just as important as the skill of being able to stop smoothly.
Stuart
10-05-2011, 10:06 PM
I agree that (on the roadster) the creep disappears while your foot is on the brake pedal. This can be seen by the power draw. So a smooth stop should be possible, and indeed as far as I know I always manage smooth stops in the roadster.
Here's an experiment you can try for yourself, in an empty parking lot when you can experiment safely without other drivers around.
At a low speed, say 10mph, put the drive into neutral and experiment with gentle braking until you can consistently bring the car to a smooth stop with no lurch. In the final few seconds before the car stops you'll need very light brake pressure to do it perfectly.
Now, once you're able to do this consistently, try it with the car in drive. You'll find that no matter how careful you are, the lurch is unavoidable. I suspect that once you've mastered the skill of the perfect smooth stop it will start to irritate you that you can't do it with the car in drive.
I will second the comments that what we are talking about here is really subtle down at the 1 to 2 mph speeds.
It's like if you were coasting to as stop and two ugly guys suddenly appeared at the back of your car and started pushing just before you would have gently coasted to a full stop -now ruining the completion of your tripl.
Now imagine that same senario where you are slowly and perfectly evenly applying the brakes to a complete stop and just a fractional moment before you did, those two creeps appeared at the back of your car and started to push you along you ruining your perfect braking. Now you have to increase the amount of braking to stop their shananagins.
Creeps. Who needs em!
jkirkebo
10-06-2011, 12:11 AM
That's what the hand brake is for! Americans call it the "emergency brake" and think I'm weird for using it every time I stop at traffic lights, but anyone who passed the "hill start" part of the UK driving test (especially in a manual car) should know how to use it. In a manual car, if you don't use the hand brake, then when you move your right foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator (remember your left foot is occupied pressing the clutch pedal) you're going to roll backwards on a hill if you're not using the hand brake.
No need to use the hand brake. I just depress the gas pedal slightly with my right foot, without letting go of the brake. At the same time I release the clutch, and when it begins to take I get off the brake and press harder on the accelerator. If the car has a good pedal layout, it's no problem operating two pedals with one foot.
Below is a suggestion I made to the good people at Tesla. They requested I post it it to the teslamotorsclub forum because they're interested in seeing how much support there is from other people.
Full support from me.
smorgasbord
10-06-2011, 09:44 AM
At a low speed, say 10mph, put the drive into neutral and experiment with gentle braking until you can consistently bring the car to a smooth stop with no lurch. In the final few seconds before the car stops you'll need very light brake pressure to do it perfectly.
I disagree here, sorry.
First, "lurch" is not the appropriate term. The car doesn't lurch while stopping. It stops with maybe not the absolute possible smoothness. But, I can do very smooth stops even while engaged in Drive.
I've been playing around with this for a couple days now and can't see any real advantage to the proposal. I even went to the extreme of coasting to a stop without using the brakes at all and found that the car generally reaches the stop point with no more noticeable smoothness than I can do engaged in Drive and using the brake. That tells me that road conditions (slight uphill or downhill or small bumps) affect the ultimate smoothness of stopping no matter what the car itself is doing. If you're on a downhill gravity gives as much forward movement as creep, anyway. How often are you on perfectly flat roads here in Northern CA?
And then there's whether making a change won't introduce a small blip somewhere else. While trying Stuart's experiment, every time I went into Neutral I got a little transition bump, probably because of regen. With practice and concentration, I could find the sweet spot on the pedal that gives no regen, making going into neutral smoother. But, overall I found myself smoother at braking to a stop engaged in Drive than I was smoothly getting into Neutral. Presumably, the car's firmware would handle the transition to neutral better than I could manually, but then what happens on acceleration uptake?
Stuart, I'm not far from you. If you want, PM me and maybe you can show me in person your perfect stops. We can also try it in each other's Roadsters to see if there are variations (I've got a relatively late VIN v2.5).
Point missed.
Using neutral or the emergency brake or two-foot braking is fine for all you fancy pants well heeled drivers but making an absolutely smooth stop is for the soccer mom or accountant or rolls royce fat-cat who knows nothing about driving nor do they care about how to trick a car to make it stop smoothly. This is why you make is right in the first place.
SByer
10-06-2011, 07:50 PM
I think what I'd like is for regen to take me all the way to as close to zero as it could get, perfectly smoothly, then start the creep within, say, 1/4 second? 1/2 second? That's plenty of timing window to get lightly on the brake, doesn't negate the creep safety issue, or the traffic issue (let off the brake == creep instantly). There has to be some threshold just above zero which is considered 'stop' since regen won't work all the way down to zero anyways.
I'm wondering how the stop-the-creep brake depressed detection is done, and if there might not be some variation between cars on that. I find the lightest brake pedal pressure stops creep for me - I get quite smooth stops nearly all of the time. Certainly better than the 911 did (manual transmission, of course - a 911 with an automatic seems quite, well, wrong to me).
Stuart
10-06-2011, 07:59 PM
I disagree here, sorry.
First, "lurch" is not the appropriate term. The car doesn't lurch while stopping. It stops with maybe not the absolute possible smoothness. But, I can do very smooth stops even while engaged in Drive.
...
Stuart, I'm not far from you. If you want, PM me and maybe you can show me in person your perfect stops. We can also try it in each other's Roadsters to see if there are variations (I've got a relatively late VIN v2.5).
Thanks for the offer. I'll contact you directly. It's quite possible that your Roadster handles differently to my 2008 model.
cinergi
10-06-2011, 09:07 PM
FWIW, I'm unable to stop smoothly in my 2.5 (#1077) ...
Stuart - I know exactly what you mean. The trick to coming to a smooth stop is to let up on the brake so the car doesn't jerk as it comes to a complete stop. With the Roadster the creep kicks in as you let up on the brake, resulting in the car pulling forward rather than coasting to a smooth stop. I can consistently come to a smooth stop in neutral, but not in drive. It's subtle but noticeable, and I agree creep should be disengaged until your foot is fully off the brake.
Personally I'd like to see the creep removed completely, or at least made optional. I've always owned manual or SMG cars - creep feels like a cheap automatic.
slcasner
10-08-2011, 10:50 PM
Stuart - I've been annoyed by this, too. I wouldn't call it a lurch, though. To me it feels more like a brake grab, like the transition from dynamic to static friction. I have long practiced what I have heard described as a "chauffeur" stop, where the driver will ease up on the brake as the car comes to a stop to smoothly reduce the deceleration rather than having the brakes grab as the car comes to a stop, causing all the passengers' heads to bob a little. With practice, even a fairly abrupt stop can be smooth. In my manual Audi A4, this works fine. I rarely drive an AT ICE, so I have not paid as close attention to that case. But I have never been able to get the Roadster to stop smoothly. I assumed it was just a difference in the type of brakes or in the weight of the vehicle, but now I see that if the force imposed by the motor abruptly drops, it would cause this effect.
hcsharp - There is no clutch, only gears. The motor is absolutely stopped when the car is stopped.
Oh, and I should add that I'm a complete hater of the creep anyway. When I took part in the first customer drives of the VP #10 Roadster, it had no creep and I was overjoyed. That was changed in production, though.
neroden
10-16-2011, 12:24 AM
As someone transitioning from a manual transmission, anything which gets rid of the creep effect seems good to me. I read that one claim was that it was too easy to get out of the car while it was "in gear" if it stopped dead. Well, in a manual, when you stop, the car stalls out and *stays* stopped. I guess in a Tesla there's no clutch to signify "I'm just at a red light, I'm not stopped for good", but having your foot on the brake pedal should sure signal "stop".
I'm "anti creep" and I think the suggestion to turn it off when the brake pedal is applied makes perfect sense.
speedy99
10-21-2011, 10:07 PM
Been playing with this for a week. Unfortunately, been in lots of traffic, and not enough open roads. I can stop just fine. Biggest issue for me is properly judging the regen, which tends to stop the car slightly faster than most people brake. I think of the tesla as an automatic, so I guess I am used to how it works. I've driven manuals all my life, but also had Toyota hybrids in the family fleet, so I am used to the regen-brake-creep transition. I've also noticed the Tesla creep is really gentle, and helpful when I misjudge the regenstopping distance. On a slight uphill I roll backwards (like a manual), where my auto cars will hold better. I have no issues with how the current 2.5 (#1415) is working, and would not change a thing!
I agree. My #1204 seems very natural for me now, after 6 months. I wouldn't change the creep. I often go on longer trips so the regen is off for the first 20 miles or so, and that's the only thing that bugs me about the transmission, however I've become so tuned into the different modes of the car that I think about it as I'm driving off from the charger and consciously brake harder and faster at first.
I often go on longer trips so the regen is off for the first 20 miles or so, and that's the only thing that bugs me about the transmission....Just to be clear, it's not the transmission, it's the software limiting regen to protect the pack from over voltage.
Agree totally speedy! ...the creep doesn't bother me a bit.
Been playing with this for a week. Unfortunately, been in lots of traffic, and not enough open roads. I can stop just fine. Biggest issue for me is properly judging the regen, which tends to stop the car slightly faster than most people brake. I think of the tesla as an automatic, so I guess I am used to how it works. I've driven manuals all my life, but also had Toyota hybrids in the family fleet, so I am used to the regen-brake-creep transition. I've also noticed the Tesla creep is really gentle, and helpful when I misjudge the regenstopping distance. On a slight uphill I roll backwards (like a manual), where my auto cars will hold better. I have no issues with how the current 2.5 (#1415) is working, and would not change a thing!
Just to be clear, it's not the transmission, it's the software limiting regen to protect the pack from over voltage.
Which is part of the modern electric transmission.
Not in the Tesla, and most EV's, which simply have a single speed gear reduction unit, not a true transmission. The software is in the motor controller.
There are a lot of threads discussing the creep; just so this one doesn't get missed by me :-)
I hate creep; to me it represents a programing bug, a flaw that slipped through QA, a bad user experience. What's next after simulated automatic transmission creep? Simulated lurches through gear changes? Vibration through the controls? No torque at low rpm? What? A little pot that we fill up with old oil that the car then throws on the garage floor?
Even modern automatics have dispensed with the creep so this is actually emulating an old crappy fluid transmission.
I drive a MINI E and those guys did a better job; no creep just works better. All I'd ask for is a tiny, tiny, tiny bias on the motor to ensure that the slack is taken out of the transmission when you're waiting at the lights.
No Creep!
I'm going to start a political party like these guys Economic money destruction Switzerland 2.1 billion | Anti Powerpoint Party (http://www.anti-powerpoint-party.com/the-cause/money-destruction-reports/national-economy-losses)
Doug_G
10-24-2011, 02:35 PM
Even modern automatics have dispensed with the creep so this is actually emulating an old crappy fluid transmission.
Interesting... my Infiniti G37 has a dual clutch 7-speed transmission. It does creep, and I've long wondered how it does that, but never looked it up. Turns out there are "wet clutch" and "dry clutch" DCTs.
HowStuffWorks (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-clutch-transmission1.htm)
Obviously the dry clutch version cannot creep, and that appears to be the more advanced design. So yes, creep is even going away with the automatics.
I think this is the closest we ever got to an "official" explanation:
Creep was designed as a safety feature. Early prototypes did not have the creep and it was really easy to walk away from the car while still on and "in gear."
Worst case scenario goes something like this:
I jump in my Roadster to go down to the farmer's market to pick up ingredients for a nice summer lunch. As I am about to back out of the garage (car in reverse) I realize that I left my wallet on the counter. I jump out of the car to grab it. It will only take a second. The phone rings. Mom wants to talk about dinner plans tomorrow.
While I am talking to mom the kids go out to the garage to vroom, vroom the Tesla. One kid walks behind the car while the other jumps in to pretend to be Speed Racer Daddy. The rest is left to imagination, but it could end poorly for both kids and the car.
With creep you never get to this point. As you jump out of the car to get your wallet the car starts to roll back. Oh yeah, I left it in Reverse. You should switch the car off with this warning and take the keys with you, but even if you don't the car is now much safer than it would have been otherwise. To switch into gear requires depression of the brake pedal while the "shift" is requested. The odds of your kid being big enough to push the brake and hit the correct button, but also not realize the risk, is decreased. And they would have to hit the correct button.
There is no comparison here to an automatic transmission car, and the common conclusion that it was done to make people comfortable with the shift from ICE to electric couldn't be further from the truth, at least in Tesla's case. Tesla's transmission can be compared to a manual with a clutch stuck in the engaged position (though there isn't a clutch in reality). The drive wheels never disconnect from the motor. Shifting gears is really just telling the drive electronics how to supply power. Neutral means no power, not a disconnecting of motor from gears and wheels. The innards and functionality of most automatic transmissions is very different.
Zak
Doug_G
10-24-2011, 02:47 PM
Easy solution to this. If you open the door with the car in gear, the VDS emits that annoying BRAP BRAP BRAP sound, with a warning message. That always gets my attention.
The firmware could even force it into Park as long as the car was not moving.
Easy solution to this. If you open the door with the car in gear, the VDS emits that annoying BRAP BRAP BRAP sound, with a warning message. That always gets my attention.
The firmware could even force it into Park as long as the car was not moving.Yes, easy enough to shut the car off when the door opens, there is already a switch to turn on the dome lights. I don't buy the safety issue, there are better ways around it.
No Creep!
I'm going to start a political party like these guys Economic money destruction Switzerland 2.1 billion | Anti Powerpoint Party (http://www.anti-powerpoint-party.com/the-cause/money-destruction-reports/national-economy-losses)
I'm in! :biggrin: Just say no to creep.
I'm a NO CREEP advocate from the beginning. Drives me crazy.
And the this new observation that shows that if you were to be traveling at 40 MPH and let off the velocity pedal the slowing graph would show a linear line heading to zero only to suddenly flatten out at a horizontal line at 3 MPH. When braking you are presented with that abrupt change from deceleration to constant speed. How could anyone possibly get a smooth stop with that kind of graph? A luxury car like the Model S needs to have this eliminated as he general public will not be as driving savvy and not even know why the car is not smooth stopping or even that there is something wrong.
I'm interested in the "compromise" of creep is off as long as the brake (lights) is on. That might be ok. Would have to drive it.
fraccy
10-25-2011, 03:14 AM
Have been playing with this in my 2011 roadster, and can't say I'm fussed by it. I like the creep in some situations, in others it can be a bit annoying, and no I can't stop completely smoothly... but very nearly :) I think its the off/on nature of it that seems unnecessarily clunky given the fine level of control the technology offers. It seems to me it being finessed in concert with action on the brake as others have described would be the best solution. Either way, there are far more important things I wish they'd work on if they ever change anything in future cough3phasecoughcoughcough.
The firmware could even force it into Park as long as the car was not moving.
Now that's safety and a perfect user experience!
You might argue that you could find yourself needing to move backwards with the door open - perhaps you need to see something, this is fine, you just have to open the door and then re-engage reverse.
...it that seems unnecessarily clunky given the fine level of control the technology offers.
Absolutely, with the MINI E, you can pull into the garage then move forwards ½", maybe ¾" as needed. This is not possible in the Tesla due to the creep bug (New name).
I wonder if they can't eliminate it as the creep represents the smallest unit of forward power/drive. Maybe they can't do the same as the MINI E, maybe their software guys can't figure it out.
Stuart
10-31-2011, 01:34 PM
I can stop just fine.
I've acknowledged before that different people have different preferences here. Some people are bothered by the way the Roadster stops, and others think it's just fine.
I've also acknowledged that "drive feel" issues like this can be hard to convey in words, but the couple of times I've demonstrated this in person, people do get it. I put the Roadster in neutral and (hopefully) bring it to a perfectly smooth stop, and for some people that's literally the first time in their life that they've ever experienced a car doing that. They're so used to every car they've ever been in always making that final little kick back as it stops, that they never even knew it was possible for a car to not do that.
I've learned something new from this discussion thread: the term "Chauffeur's Stop". I'd never heard that term before. It's nice to know this skill has a name.
Paul Scheele wrote a wrote a good description (http://ask.metafilter.com/51877/car-trouble-deja-vu):
The type of stop he's describing is called a chauffeur's stop. It is accomplished by applying hard brake pedal force at the beginning of braking, when the relative wheel motion to vehicle is greatest, and most braking effect can be created on dry pavement, with a subsequent gradual lessening of pedal force until just before the moment when the vehicle stops, at which instant, the brake pedal is released completely. The driver is trading on the difference between sliding friction, which is the usual kind of friction available in the brakes of a car in motion, and static friction, which is what holds a car in place on a grade when the brakes are applied. (You may have heard these terms in a basic physics course describing types of friction and Newtonian forces.) The transition between sliding and static friction is what you are trying to avoid in the last instant of stopping. The advantages are that 1) you avoid the coffee spilling small "jerk" that will inevitably happen if you keep brake pressure through to full stop, and 2) you minimize the considerable brake wear that occurs when particles of your pads are yanked by the sudden occurrence of static friction at the end of every stop you are now doing.
Also Alan Sidorov (http://www.driveandstayalive.com/articles%20and%20topics/good%20driving%20advice/article_braking-requires-decisive-footwork.htm):
Braking skills are not a new subject in this column. Footwork in general is one of the things we work on the most in racing and advanced driving schools. Think of proper braking like a graph that spikes relatively early then trails off, versus one that starts low and climbs to a peak. The result should be a chauffeur stop, with brake pressure gradually reducing so there is no final lurch to spill the passenger's double espresso. Good truck drivers know this and demonstrate it, though now and then someone in a car will decide to cut in front of them before a red light, spoiling the whole effort.
Robert.Boston
02-28-2012, 08:09 AM
Here's a snippet from the Tesla 10-K posted yesterday that discusses "creep":
Control Software
The performance and safety systems of our vehicles and their battery packs require sophisticated control software. There are numerous processors in our vehicles to control these functions, and we write custom firmware for many of these processors. The flow of electricity between the battery pack and the motor must be tightly controlled in order to deliver the performance and behavior expected in the vehicle. For example, software algorithms enable the vehicle to mimic the “creep” feeling which drivers expect from an internal combustion engine vehicle without having to apply pressure on the accelerator. Similar algorithms control traction, vehicle stability and the sustained acceleration and regenerative braking of the vehicle. Drivers use the information systems in our vehicles to optimize performance and charging modes and times. Software also is used extensively to monitor the charge state of each of the cells of the battery pack and to manage all of its safety systems. In addition to the vehicle control software, we are also developing software for the infotainment system of Model S.
Given that "creep" is strictly software-driven, I wonder if it will be possible to disable "creep" on our cars? Shouldn't be any harder than the "variable regen" that's been discussed.
It's my only wish for my car; no creep. That and Sport performance; Sport performance and no creep.
No creep, Sport performance and automatic park when the door is opened like the ActiveE.
Those are the things that I want; Sport Performance, No Creep and automatic switch off… No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Kipernicus
02-28-2012, 11:33 AM
I'd sign a No Creep petition
hcsharp
02-28-2012, 11:43 AM
It's my only wish for my car; no creep. That and Sport performance; Sport performance and no creep.
No creep, Sport performance and automatic park when the door is opened like the ActiveE.
Those are the things that I want; Sport Performance, No Creep and automatic switch off… No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
I don't think I would want auto park when the door is opened. Many times it's very handy to be able to creep this way or that with the door open. Automatic park when the vehicle is turned off is OK. Usually you turn it off before opening your door.
NigelM
02-28-2012, 12:09 PM
Automatic park when the vehicle is turned off is OK.
Roadster does that already.
P.S. Personally, I like creep.
ElSupreme
02-28-2012, 12:45 PM
For someone who has never driven an auto full time. I think creep is weird, scary, and dangerous. I want my car in neutral/regen with the accelerator off.
Well it might be ok if I were on a hill. :biggrin:
Alfred
02-28-2012, 01:19 PM
hcharp: To creep with open doors is dangerous. Especially if you should be tempted to have already one leg out. In one case that leg was lost as the door pushed against a slim and not so prominently visible pillar on the side. I ruined one door a long time ago in that way backing out slowly - against a pillar too.
For me creep is ideal and I would miss it. In town traffic, when stopped, you can close up and creep along without lifting your foot off the brake pedal. Much safer this way than having to amble your foot from pedal to pedal to keep up with crawling traffic. Similarly regenerative braking is perfectly adjusted and feels very safe to drive as your foot can remain much of the time on the accelerator pedal. A free wheeling car would be horrible and might be uncontrollable in hilly terrain. With manually shifted cars you would not pass a drivers test freewheeling. The gear has to be chosen to hold the car (in Switzerland that is).
strider
02-28-2012, 02:05 PM
I wish it was like a Segway and would just hold its position whether you're on a hill or not. As it is, if you are stopped on a hill the car will roll backwards which is just ridiculous. Make creep the default but let us turn it off.
dsm363
02-28-2012, 02:17 PM
I think they could engineer it to turn creep off when a door is open. I also agree with leaving it on by default since that's the normal behavior of an automatic ICE (to make the transition to ICE easier for people) but having a way to turn it off would be great.
Kipernicus
02-28-2012, 03:46 PM
that's the normal behavior of an automatic ICE
Isn't Tesla all about NOT being an ICE? To artificially mimic the characteristics that result from the inefficiencies of an ICE with slushbox transmission seems to me to fly against their core mission! If people can transition to one-pedal driving then they can certainly get over the lack of creep at the same time. For the "stuck in traffic" scenario, don't we want to be modulating the accelerator (and regen) rather than modulating the friction brakes with creep?
At the very least the ability to turn it off (and keep it off) is a must.
NigelM
02-28-2012, 04:15 PM
...if you are stopped on a hill the car will roll backwards which is just ridiculous.
I've never had that in my Roadster, but the "hills" round here consist more of angled driveways.
I wish it was like a Segway and would just hold its position whether you're on a hill or not.
Now that I could happily go for!
howabout2
02-28-2012, 05:49 PM
No creep. Neutral when no input is provided. Hill assist for two seconds after brake is applied ala MINI E. Done.
daniel
02-28-2012, 07:55 PM
I'd prefer not to have creep. My Zap Xebra was freewheeling. With the foot off both pedals the car would remain stopped if stopped on level ground, or coast smoothly with very little drag if moving. My electric Porsche (conversion) was the same. It was very easy to maintain constant speed by just keeping a slight pressure on the pedal.
Yes, the brake was necessary on hills, but that was not a problem. In that respect it was just like a manual transmission, which to this long-time stick-shift guy is the natural way.
The Roadster, with strong regen on the accelerator pedal is hard to keep at a constant speed, and with creep requires a foot on the brake at a stop. Now, I understand that regen on the brake pedal (the way Toyota does it) is very complicated. But why not, instead of creep, have the car slow to a stop using regen when your foot is off the pedal, and remain stopped until you press the pedal again? Why require the use of the brake pedal at a stop?
Here's one vote against creep.
Doug_G
02-28-2012, 07:59 PM
I don't think I would want auto park when the door is opened. Many times it's very handy to be able to creep this way or that with the door open. Automatic park when the vehicle is turned off is OK. Usually you turn it off before opening your door.
Doing that is dangerous. I haven't done it in 20 years, because the last time I did I bent the corner of my door on a low-hanging shelf in my garage.
I'm of mixed minds about this. I think it could be beneficial for the car to not roll back on a slope - which could be solved without introducing creep... although that would encourage people to sit at lights with the brakes off, which I also consider dangerous.
PopSmith
02-28-2012, 08:28 PM
Isn't Tesla all about NOT being an ICE? To artificially mimic the characteristics that result from the inefficiencies of an ICE with slushbox transmission seems to me to fly against their core mission!
I see two issues with eliminating creep by default. First, most people (at least in the U.S.) are used to driving ICE-powered automatics. That is probably why Tesla has implemented creep (and probably will by default on Model S & X as well). It is an attempt to keep people as "comfortable" as possible with the transition to an EV.
The second issue I see is what Doug_G said:
... although that would encourage people to sit at lights with the brakes off, which I also consider dangerous.
If the brakes are engaged at a stop light/sign (due to creep) then the car won't hit the person in front of you in the event of a rear collision.
FWIW, I'd "vote" for creep as a standard "feature" that can be disabled by the driver.
NigelM
02-28-2012, 08:56 PM
If the brakes are engaged at a stop light/sign (due to creep) then the car won't hit the person in front of you in the event of a rear collision.
And your brake lights would be on! This is also a safety factor.
What about all those cars with manual transmissions? Maybe it's because of all the hills around here but I always keep my foot on the brakes when stopped, but I'm not sure it would make that much difference anyway. The light pedal pressure to hold a vehicle still on the flat isn't going to do much if you are slammed into from behind, if that is the concern, brake lights could be set to come on when not moving. I mean people made the adjustment from manual cars with no creep to automatics with creep, they can't adjust back for some reason?
NigelM
02-29-2012, 04:39 AM
The light pedal pressure to hold a vehicle still on the flat isn't going to do much if you are slammed into from behind....
It might save your life.
So might being shoved further ahead completely through an intersection and out of crossing traffic. Kind of hard to predict what's best at a particular moment in time.
NigelM
02-29-2012, 06:19 AM
There's really no downside to having the brakes engaged on a stationary car. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue the case for sitting waiting to be pushed at full speed into other vehicles or crossing traffic? I've had someone rear-end me in stopped traffic and they were going full speed, believe me I was really happy I had my brakes on.
Anyway, this is going unnecessarily OT.
PopSmith, I agree wwith your thinking 100% on this...to me, it is more of a liability issue (for TMC) than a convenience / in convenience issue for Roadster owners...remember, we will have new EV owners (some who don't / won't read manuals)...it is important not to leave any loose ends that may cause even the dimmest of the dim new EV owner to screw up whilst operating their vehicle...as sad a comment as it sounds, there is a reason that ICE lawn mower manuals advise you to not pick up your running lawn mower to trim your cedar hedge. :rolleyes:
I'd also support this (creep to be shut off by the vehicle owner at their pleasure) 100% as it proves a "conscious decision / action" by the vehicle owner to in fact shut off the feature...it would / should mitigate TMC's liability exposure from this issue imo.
Doug_G
02-29-2012, 07:54 AM
So might being shoved further ahead completely through an intersection and out of crossing traffic. Kind of hard to predict what's best at a particular moment in time.
That's a silly way to look at it... no matter what, I'd prefer to move 5 feet rather than 50. Being shoved into an intersection must have a 100X higher probability of a secondary collision.
When sitting at a stop light, you shouldn't be holding the brake pedal lightly. You should have full weight on it.
I know it's been a few pages but Stuart's original Post was brilliant:
Automatic creep makes it impossible to come to a smooth stop
Below is a suggestion I made to the good people at Tesla. They requested I post it it to the teslamotorsclub forum because they're interested in seeing how much support there is from other people.
I like to drive well. One of the things I was taught when I was learning to drive is that if you're in control of your vehicle then you should be able to bring it to a smooth stop without any perceptible lurch, by gently letting off the brake pressure as the vehicle slows down to a smooth stop. In a manual transmission car if you depress the clutch pedal and brake properly you can do this.
For design reasons I won't speculate about, the Tesla Roadster was designed to emulate an automatic transmission. With no pedals pressed, if it is in drive, it will slowly creep forward, presumably to remind the driver that it is still in drive. However skillful you are on the brake pedal, if the car's motor is trying to make it go, it becomes impossible to bring it to a smooth stop without a small lurch.
I have read discussions about disabling this "automatic creep", but I'm realistic enough to realize there are probably good reasons Tesla wouldn't want to do that. (I have also read discussions about hacking firmware to disable the "automatic creep", but I don't want to do that.)
This led me to wonder if there could be a way that car could let the driver stop smoothly without having to disable the "automatic creep" and a compromise occurred to me: If my foot is on the brake pedal, and the brake lights are illuminated, then the car's electronics know that I'm trying to bring the car to a stop, so why are the car's electronics fighting me and trying to make it go? Would it be possible to make the car's electronics disable the "automatic creep" as long as the brake pedal is depressed? That would allow the driver to bring it to a smooth stop. If the brake pedal is then released then the "automatic creep" would resume, to remind the driver that it is still in drive.
Does that sound like a sensible compromise, to allow good drivers to drive well, while still retaining the safety requirements of "automatic creep" so that driver's can't forget that the car is still in drive?
And my comment:
Really thinking about this it's a very good refinement of what Tesla is doing and is right up the ally of them trying to make a car that is the best on the road.
So the problem is when we are coming to a stop at the very last 1 or 2 miles an hour the creep takes over changing regen's somewhat linear downward speed ramp to a straight line speed before it can complete it's path to a complete stop. Since there is no way to predict exactly when it that flat line will "jump in" you can't react fast enough and change your braking amount to the new speed to achieve an ultra smooth stop at that very very end of the braking.
Another solution would be to not have creep come on till after the car comes to a complete stop BUT,
As a certified "creep hater" what I don't like about it is when sitting at a stop light and you relax your brake foot a bit the car starts lurching forward. Even with the brake light still on.
So yes, your idea works for me as a solution that is closer to what I want than we have now. Who knows, I may even like it in practice.
As long as the brake lights are on, creep is disabled. It would make for ultimately smoother final end of braking and make the car not be too anxious to move forward when slightly letting off on the brake while stopped.
I find this to be superior to an AT ICE car. Tesla should implement this on all cars past and future.
Good thinking!
On my list of things that I should have talked with JB about (at the X EVent) this should have been number one!
eledille
02-29-2012, 03:14 PM
I hate creep. I also hate jerkiness. My ICE car has a hydraulically actuated manual gearbox, and I imagine it spoils my chauffeur stops in almost the same way as Stuart describes: While decelerating, the computer will automatically disengage the clutch when RPMs fall slightly below 1000. That suddenly removes the engine drag, causing the rate of deceleration to suddenly change. It's annoying. It doesn't interfere with the actual final stop, but it's annoying nonetheless.
My EV is super silky smooth in all situations. I love that. It's also extremely easy to maneuver at low speeds, the power control is so fine that I can move 1 cm forwards. I can't see the problem. How can it be hard to get used to that the car doesn't move unless you tell it to? Regen on the accelerator just means that the car tends more quickly towards standstill with zero input, which feels natural, so that's fine.
mpt: What's next? A stink generator so no one will miss the smell of fresh exhaust in the morning, I bet :-D
Wishlist:
1) Remove creep entirely. Have the car generate annoying sounds or shift to neutral instead.
2) See above.
3) Failing the above, kill creep whenever the brake light is on.
This can be user configurable as long as the car supports multiple user profiles and can select the right one automatically.
I've always driven manual transmission cars so by nature I also hate the creep, but I understand why Tesla did it. The creep isn't there to mimic an automatic, it's there as a safety feature that results from having regen on the accelerator.
It's very easy to single-pedal drive a Roadster and come to a complete stop using regen alone (if creep was disabled). This would make it tempting for lazy drivers to keep their foot on the accelerator at stop signs and stop lights - which needless to say is extremely dangerous. By including creep drivers are forced to take their foot off the accelerator and hold the brake at stops. Manual transmission ICE cars don't carry the same risk - without regen you can't come to a complete stop using the gas pedal alone.
The only safe way to disable creep would be to move regen to the brake pedal, but that would take away the fun of single-pedal driving a Roadster. I think Tesla made the right compromise.
That said, the topic of this thread is creep on the brake pedal which makes it impossible to come to a clean stop. I agree completely that creep could and should be removed from the brake, and only kick in when the brake is fully released.
In manual transmission cars you can put the car in neutral when at a stop and you've got the same situation as no creep. The Tesla can be put in neutral while stopping as well.
Since Tesla uses a single speed gear reduction I assume "neutral" just means no response to the throttle, and not a mechanical disconnect?
I got a peek at one of the ActiveE training manuals. There is no clutch in the transmission. Instead it explained that neutral is achieved in the ActiveE by supplying a voltage to the motor with the phase/amplitude controlled such that there is no torque generated.
I'd wager the Tesla motor control is similar.
My Roadster is in storage for winter, but I'd wager that when in neutral, it does not creep. It makes no logical sense for any car to move when in neutral and at a stop, so creep must be canceled in that mode.
BTW there's also tow mode, which does mechanically disconnect some part of the drive train, if I understand correctly. But obviously tow mode is of no use in this context.
eledille
02-29-2012, 11:48 PM
I've always driven manual transmission cars so by nature I also hate the creep, but I understand why Tesla did it. The creep isn't there to mimic an automatic, it's there as a safety feature that results from having regen on the accelerator.
It's very easy to single-pedal drive a Roadster and come to a complete stop using regen alone (if creep was disabled). This would make it tempting for lazy drivers to keep their foot on the accelerator at stop signs and stop lights - which needless to say is extremely dangerous. By including creep drivers are forced to take their foot off the accelerator and hold the brake at stops. Manual transmission ICE cars don't carry the same risk - without regen you can't come to a complete stop using the gas pedal alone.
Can't this be achieved by softly fading out regen as speed approaches zero? My EV has an AC induction motor like the Roadster. It has practically no regen force left at walking speed, so you have to use the brake to come to a complete stop. This is by design and not just a feature of AC induction motors. Also, there is very little energy left to regenerate at such low speed anyway.
The problem can also be solved by having the car generate a sound and/or select 'P' if it is in drive, the handbrake is off and it has been at standstill without brakes applied for more than X seconds.
My Alfa Romeo Selespeed is also freewheeling in this situation - in first and second gear, whenever the speed is so low that the current gear would force the engine below idle rpm, the computer disengages the clutch. It has no regen, of course, but the automatic clutch means that it's possible to forget that the wheels can spin freely. It will emit a double beep and select neutral when you let it sit for 60 seconds without holding the brake, and immediately if you open the door. If you open the door, then select a gear it will only stay in gear for about 10 seconds before beeping and selecting neutral again.
I think the 60 seconds the Alfa waits before beeping and selecting neutral is too long. You should never do this anyway, so five seconds before emitting a little beep and selecting 'P' would be just fine. That would teach people to drive properly.
BTW there's also tow mode, which does mechanically disconnect some part of the drive train, if I understand correctly. But obviously tow mode is of no use in this context.
I would guess that tow mode simply releases the parking pall and kills the power to the inverter which would allow free wheeling when the motor turns, I don't think there is any way to disconnect the motor from the wheels.
Can't this be achieved by softly fading out regen as speed approaches zero? My EV has an AC induction motor like the Roadster. It has practically no regen force left at walking speed, so you have to use the brake to come to a complete stop. This is by design and not just a feature of AC induction motors. Also, there is very little energy left to regenerate at such low speed anyway.
I have my AC induction motor set similarly, it usually takes a little brake pedal to come to a complete stop, though not at low speed on the flat, so I can still single pedal most of the time in stop and go traffic.
S-2000 Roadster
03-02-2012, 11:47 PM
I wish it was like a Segway and would just hold its position whether you're on a hill or not. As it is, if you are stopped on a hill the car will roll backwards which is just ridiculous. Make creep the default but let us turn it off.
Why would you want to drain your battery to keep your car on a hill? I just use the brake, and I've never rolled backwards. It's also nice to see the current drop when you apply the brake.
S-2000 Roadster
03-02-2012, 11:49 PM
At the very least the ability to turn it off (and keep it off) is a must.
Creep can be turned off by selecting Neutral. Look for the button labeled 'N' on your control panel. You don't even have to apply the brake for this transition.
S-2000 Roadster
03-02-2012, 11:54 PM
If the brakes are engaged at a stop light/sign (due to creep) then the car won't hit the person in front of you in the event of a rear collision.
In the event of a rear-end collision, you would prefer to have your foot off the brake. Less damage will happen to you and your car if the energy of the impact can be absorbed by moving your car forward rather than by crushing your car or you inside your car. Obviously, this ideally requires that you leave enough space between you and the car in front of you so that you don't hit them, too, otherwise you'll be crushed anyway.
stopcrazypp
03-03-2012, 12:21 AM
In the event of a rear-end collision, you would prefer to have your foot off the brake. Less damage will happen to you and your car if the energy of the impact can be absorbed by moving your car forward rather than by crushing your car or you inside your car. Obviously, this ideally requires that you leave enough space between you and the car in front of you so that you don't hit them, too, otherwise you'll be crushed anyway.
I think in at a stop light/sign keeping the brakes applied is better. With the brakes off you will likely hit the car in front (even with a reasonable distance away from the front car), which means front AND rear damage (as well as two collisions). The other big danger is losing control of your car and being pushed into oncoming traffic or cross traffic or pedestrians or other obstacles.
As for the physics argument, supposedly having the brakes applied means less overall acceleration for the passenger and less risk of injury (even if it means more rear damage to the vehicle).
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=227726
daniel
03-03-2012, 06:15 AM
... most people (at least in the U.S.) are used to driving ICE-powered automatics. [... C]reep [...] is an attempt to keep people as "comfortable" as possible with the transition to an EV. [...]
If the brakes are engaged at a stop light/sign (due to creep) then the car won't hit the person in front of you in the event of a rear collision....
The Roadster is a sports car. Most sports cars have manual transmission. So I would think that most Roadster buyers would "expect" or would be "used to" no creep. Neither my Xebra nor my electric Porsche have creep, and I like it that way,
The wife of a friend was rear-ended. The car was an automatic and so she had her foot on the brake. Her car was thrown into the car in front of her hard enough to do serious damage to the car, and she had neck pain for several months. (She is well now.) Most people, stopped at a light, do not apply sufficient pressure on the brake to hold the car if it's hit from behind, and probably don't have the presence of mind or reaction time to apply full pressure at the instant of being struck.
When you're hit from the rear and are not expecting it, your body will move backwards releasing the brake IMO.
The MINI E and ActiveE drive more smoothly as a result of no creep - it's just nicer.
Time for a poll - let the community decide!
howabout2
03-03-2012, 08:39 AM
No creep, please.
I wonder if any of the former MINI E drivers or current ActiveE drivers would prefer creep. I'm guessing no.
You become acclimated to no-creep in just a few minutes because it's so natural as a human-being. Do you keep moving when you elect to stop walking? Do you have to apply pressure on your feet to stay stopped?
Then, after turning in the MINI E and switching back to an ICE with that automatic creep, it boggled my mind. Whoa, whoa, whoa! Why is the car still moving??? I am not providing any forward input to the car!
Lloyd
03-03-2012, 08:50 AM
I believe we did a Poll on creep some time ago!!
dpeilow
03-03-2012, 09:27 AM
Here's my vote...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkzRNyygfk
It's moot since Tesla has made the decision quite clearly to creep. The point of this post was that creep makes in neatly impossible to get a smooth stop. It needs to be turned off when the brake is applied or some other off-solution.
cinergi
03-03-2012, 10:23 AM
Why would you want to drain your battery to keep your car on a hill? I just use the brake, and I've never rolled backwards. It's also nice to see the current drop when you apply the brake.
It would use less power than running the A/C to do this (based on observations of using creep to keep my car from rolling backwards on a hill)
Has anyone experimented with putting the car in neutral when braking to a stop?
Has anyone experimented with putting the car in neutral when braking to a stop?
You can neutralize creep with a sufficient enough upward grade. You can get a magically smooth stop without the creep trying to launch (lurch) the car forward. using the N (or "shifting" to N) is a superfluous step that can be negated by proper software.
Doug_G
03-03-2012, 12:58 PM
Has anyone tried two-footing a stop, pressing both pedals at once? It's entirely possible that pressing both pedals at once would kill the motor drive, due to safety interlocks.
NigelM
03-03-2012, 01:05 PM
Time for a poll - let the community decide!
I gave them up for Lent.
neroden
03-03-2012, 07:39 PM
Creep ("high idle" is the technical term) "creeped me out" when I first encountered it on an automatic. It's frightening and dangerous. I learned to drive on manual transmissions.
Anyone who has driven a manual understands how to drive without "creep". Though the complex "quick, hit the clutch" maneuver necessary when stopping is another matter, one I'll be glad to get rid of with an electric car.
To be blunt, drivers of manual transmissions *do* leave their feet on the accelerator at a full stop sometimes, on uphill slopes, with their foot on the clutch. I think there is no justifiable reason for creep. (In automatics it's there so that it's possible to start the car without clutching, a technical reason which does not apply to electric cars.)
But there's no reason for a center console either, and some people badly want one, so whatever. We're early adopters, we're going to get gratuitous leftovers from the ICE age, just like the Ford Model T buyers got a buggy whip holder.
neroden
03-03-2012, 07:43 PM
It's very easy to single-pedal drive a Roadster and come to a complete stop using regen alone (if creep was disabled). This would make it tempting for lazy drivers to keep their foot on the accelerator at stop signs and stop lights - which needless to say is extremely dangerous. By including creep drivers are forced to take their foot off the accelerator and hold the brake at stops. Manual transmission ICE cars don't carry the same risk - without regen you can't come to a complete stop using the gas pedal alone.
To be clear on what I said above, yes, manual transmission ICE cars do carry precisely the same "risk", if you're stopping uphill. Not good driving practice, but it's been done.
Creep ("high idle" is the technical term) "creeped me out" when I first encountered it on an automatic. It's frightening and dangerous. I learned to drive on manual transmissions.Yes, the idea that the "safe" thing to do is allow the vehicle to move under it's own power without driver input does not make much sense. I guess it's what many people are used to so they are looking for reasons not to change.
To be blunt, drivers of manual transmissions *do* leave their feet on the accelerator at a full stop sometimes, on uphill slopes, with their foot on the clutch. :scared: You mean slipping the clutch to hold the car on a hill? That was ingrained in me as a bad idea that could burn out a clutch.
But there's no reason for a center console either, and some people badly want one, so whatever.
To me a properly designed center console is positioned so that I can rest my elbow on it when holding the wheel, same with a properly position door armrest. Plus I keep a lot of crap in the center console, all of it essential of course :redface:.
To be clear on what I said above, yes, manual transmission ICE cars do carry precisely the same "risk", if you're stopping uphill. Not good driving practice, but it's been done.
There is definitely a higher risk of drivers leaving their foot on the accelerator in EVs than manual ICE cars. The difference between the two is the heavy regen on the accelerator, which makes it possible to use the "gas" pedal as a brake and single pedal drive the car without using the brakes at all. Without creep, EV drivers would be tempted to leave their foot on the accelerator at all stop signs, stop lights and when stopped in stop & go traffic. I think this is what Tesla is trying to prevent by using creep to force drivers to hold the brake at stops.
Personally I don't like creep either, but I prefer it to the idea of thousands of new Model S/X drivers single pedal driving their cars with their foot never leaving the accelerator.
I don't think a soft fade of the regen when stopping as suggested previously would help much - the car would still coast to a stop from the rolling friction of the tires and gearbox, with the same end result of coming to a complete stop without hitting the brakes.
The one design change I would make is the original one suggested on this thread to disable the creep as soon as the brakes are engaged. I've tried doing the equivalent by switching to neutral while braking, and it works perfectly with a nice clean smooth stop. It's a pain to switch to neutral on every stop, but there's no reason Tesla couldn't do the same in the firmware.
As an ActiveE & MINI E driver, I've not found myself hovering over the accelerator at junctions, unless the road is very very flat, the car rolls around anyway so, the foot is usually resting on the brake. I've watched others do the save.
I think that the poll should be more specific and ask what do you want for yourself not what you want for others.
I don't think a soft fade of the regen when stopping as suggested previously would help much - the car would still coast to a stop from the rolling friction of the tires and gearbox, with the same end result of coming to a complete stop without hitting the brakes.As I mentioned this is how I set my car up, and most of the time I do need to use the brakes at the very end to completely stop, unless I'm going very slowly, or uphill.
The one design change I would make is the original one suggested on this thread to disable the creep as soon as the brakes are engaged. I've tried doing the equivalent by switching to neutral while braking, and it works perfectly with a nice clean smooth stop. It's a pain to switch to neutral on every stop, but there's no reason Tesla couldn't do the same in the firmware.
Agree, if they won't kill creep completely they could kill it with the brake pedal.
Yes to the brake pedal creep kill. (It should be a poll option).
Also what about having creep as standard setup. Then buried under several screens with appropriate safety warnings the creep could be disabled.
Then the electric car would remember your driver preferences along with seat and steering wheel positions and favorite radio an regen settings.
As I mentioned this is how I set my car up, and most of the time I do need to use the brakes at the very end to completely stop, unless I'm going very slowly, or uphill.
I guess it depends on the threshold speed where regen is faded out. You're right - this would be a workable solution if the threshold speed is high enough that you can't coast to a stop.
Agree, if they won't kill creep completely they could kill it with the brake pedal.
Actually, on the roadster, they already do. There's a stop light on a slight uphill on my way to work. It's just right for the creep to balance the uphill, and the car stays still. Without my foot on the brake (just for testing...) it draws 3 kW. When I put my foot on the brake, it drops instantly to 1kW. Unfortunately, there's a certain minimum pressure needed on the brake, and it's *still* too much to allow smooth stopping. You can also feel it if, while stopped, you gradually ease off the brake pedal, at some point you feel the lurch as the creep comes back on.
Actually, on the roadster, they already do. There's a stop light on a slight uphill on my way to work. It's just right for the creep to balance the uphill, and the car stays still. Without my foot on the brake (just for testing...) it draws 3 kW. When I put my foot on the brake, it drops instantly to 1kW. Unfortunately, there's a certain minimum pressure needed on the brake, and it's *still* too much to allow smooth stopping. You can also feel it if, while stopped, you gradually ease off the brake pedal, at some point you feel the lurch as the creep comes back on.
I think that's just the brakes taking some of the load of holding the vehicle so the motor is under less load. The power should be lower than 1 kw if the motor is disengaged.
cinergi
03-04-2012, 01:24 PM
The problem is that creep is NOT killed via the brake pedal unless you're at or very near 0 MPH.
If Telsa were to change the firmware to take creep off the brake pedal, would the car then need to be re-certified by the NHTSA and international regulators? That could make this whole discussion a non-starter.
Kipernicus
03-08-2012, 09:37 PM
the complex "quick, hit the clutch" maneuver necessary when stopping is another matter, one I'll be glad to get rid of with an electric car.
Me too - there have been a few times while driving my wife's car (auto) that my left foot instinctively went to press in the clutch and it hit the brake instead for a very jarring jolt. Wife not amused.
As an ActiveE & MINI E driver, I've not found myself hovering over the accelerator at junctions, unless the road is very very flat, the car rolls around anyway so, the foot is usually resting on the brake. I've watched others do the save.
MPT I take it from your post that the ActiveE and MiniE have no creep?
eledille
03-08-2012, 11:43 PM
I guess it depends on the threshold speed where regen is faded out. You're right - this would be a workable solution if the threshold speed is high enough that you can't coast to a stop.
My EV fades regen out so smoothly that it's impossible to say when it's completely gone without a clamp ammmeter around the battery cable. It starts to fade out at approximately 20 km/h and is completely gone somewhere between 10 and 5 km/h. The car will then continue to roll. A simple reduction gear has extremely low drag, I would guess that I need 50 to 100 m to bring it to a stop without braking. It certainly takes too much time to be practical, and if there is even the slightest bit of uphill it will start rolling backwards unless I apply the brakes.
Removing creep when depressing the brake pedal would almost solve the problem, except that I think creep is scary, dangerous and counterintuitive. Why not have the car select 'P' instead, after say five or ten seconds of standing still without brakes applied? If Tesla added creep to force drivers to keep their foot on the brake pedal, then I should think this solution would be better.
This also changes the behaviour of the driver, you tend to do what the car "wants you to do". Fading out regen encourages early deceleration and letting the car roll. That's what good truck drivers do, because it requires less energy and decreases wear.
de704
03-09-2012, 03:38 AM
Why not make in a driver controlled feature. Have it on be default for new EV drivers coming from ICEs. Those who want it off will figure out how to go through the menu and turn it off (once it's off it stays off until turned back on). Some one will also most likely share how to deactivate it with others owners wanting to do the same on TMC.
My only thought would be, would you forget your car is on and accidently graze the torque pedal when you forget to put the car in park? Just a thought.
NEWDL
03-09-2012, 03:49 AM
I have always called this feature "idle crawl"... Wether speaking of an ICE or simulated in an EV...
MPT I take it from your post that the ActiveE and MiniE have no creep?
None; they are much smoother to drive, especially when maneuvering as a result.
One trick I like to pull the in ActiveE is to receive a passenger and, whilst they're putting on their seat belt I set off ever so slowly; they feel absolutely nothing, like a modern train, until they look up! It's quite funny, you can often see them visibly startled that we're already moving.
I drive a manual, so I prefer no creep. As far has not rolling back on hills, that's what the three pedal shuffle is for, or just use the hand brake.
Creep is only good for ghost riding in the East Bay.
Check out this vid at the 5 minute mark for a creep fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTY3WS1C_g#t=305s
No creep here also. I have an automatic with no creep and it is awesome.
I think that having a car without creep significantly increases your desire for no creep. First time we drove the MINI E we were instantly polarized towards no creep.
shark2k
03-09-2012, 03:03 PM
I also drive a manual and don't want creep. Besides, as MPT already mentioned elsewhere, BMW has dealt with the forgetting you have the car in drive and getting out of the car. I believe he said it shut it off when you have it in drive and get off the seat.
-Shark2k
MitchL
03-09-2012, 03:05 PM
I've read this whole thread trying to figure out what "creep" means to me -- since I don't(yet) own an EV, and 5 minutes driving a Leaf does not count as experience, I'm not sure what to think.
I'm used to both standard and automatic transmissions -- in heavy traffic, I like creep from an automatic, and would prefer not to keep shifting between pedals. I also like that the brake light will mostly stay ON while I'm creeping - if I'm only moving a foot or two, I don't want the guy behind me to get the idea that I'm accelerating.
However, I totally appreciate the idea that unless I press the "Go" pedal, we will in fact _not_ go.
Still, I wonder about that brake light. Unless I am moving or am just about to start moving, I'd like the brake light ON, so I'll hold the brake.
Those of you that say "Standard transmissions don't creep" - true - but on a level road, do you take your foot off the brake at a stop light? I don't..., so no matter how I come to a stop, once I get there I'll definitely have my foot on the brake, and will hold it there, so does the creep really matter?
I guess I'd quickly get used to no creep - and I might even form some deep appreciation for it, but right now, without any other experience, I actually will expect my Model S to do it (it's the way expectations are wired, and undoubtably the reason why it's there in the first place).
How does the brake light work on EVs that don't creep, or when you're rapidly decelerating via regen? - does the light come on even though your foot isn't on the pedal? Should it?
/Mitch.
How does the brake light work on EVs that don't creep, or when you're rapidly decelerating via regen? - does the light come on even though your foot isn't on the pedal? Should it?
/Mitch.
Yes, for North American Roadsters the brake light comes on during strong regen. European Roadsters don't use the brake light during regen due to an odd regulation that says brake lights can only be on if the brakes are engaged, and European Roadsters have weaker regen to compensate.
Check out this vid at the 5 minute mark for a creep fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTY3WS1C_g#t=305s
Great "safety" feature :rolleyes:
howabout2
03-09-2012, 05:46 PM
One trick I like to pull the in ActiveE is to receive a passenger and, whilst they're putting on their seat belt I set off ever so slowly; they feel absolutely nothing, like a modern train, until they look up! It's quite funny, you can often see them visibly startled that we're already moving.
mpt, it's funny you should mention that. I didn't do that specific thing, but I remember absolutely loving the unbelievable precision control that the no-creep MINI E provided. I remember telling people, "I'll bet you I can make the car move one millimeter forward. One millimeter!" (One ping only!) Everyone said, "no, that's impossible." In any car with creep, there's absolutely no way to do it. And yet, in the MINI E there was such linear precision in the accelerator that you could start moving with absolutely zero stutter, zero commotion. It was as smooth as silk.
Like you say, it was like a modern train. I did tiny acceleration motions so much that my passengers sometimes got on my case because they would get carsick--something about the mixed signals they were getting from their senses.
As others have said, the ability to come to a stop with zero--and I mean zero--stutter was also such a delight. Ever since turning in the MINI E, when I drive my wife's automatic ICE, I feel a twinge of frustration when the brakes do that annoying shake of the vehicle as the friction of the brakes finally seizes the calipers.
Frankly, the no-creep total precision acceleration was one of my favorite things about the MINI E. I miss that and it sounds like I'll continue to miss it with the Model S.
...
One trick I like to pull the in ActiveE is to receive a passenger and, whilst they're putting on their seat belt I set off ever so slowly; they feel absolutely nothing, like a modern train, until they look up! It's quite funny, you can often see them visibly startled that we're already moving.
I like this. Too bad a Roadster could only do this on an uphill slope.
Creep should be in car setup with seat, radio settings and steering wheel position.
Lloyd
03-09-2012, 06:39 PM
Creep should be user selectable. I voted NO creeps
Changing my wording.
I like this. Too bad a Roadster could only do this on an uphill slope.
Creep should be in the driver's setup screen with other options like seat position, radio settings and steering wheel height.
Mycroft
04-18-2012, 02:06 PM
According to my last trip to the store and the maintenance mode, they're definitely looking at the ability to disable the automatic creep "feature". In fact, removing the creep improves the energy efficiency.
Robert.Boston
04-18-2012, 03:20 PM
According to my last trip to the store and the maintenance mode, they're definitely looking at the ability to disable the automatic creep "feature". In fact, removing the creep improves the energy efficiency.
+1 Good news, indeed.
Lloyd
04-18-2012, 04:17 PM
Maybe you just need some of this
5579
According to my last trip to the store and the maintenance mode, they're definitely looking at the ability to disable the automatic creep "feature". In fact, removing the creep improves the energy efficiency.
Great news. Also a step towards a hypermiling mindset. There are many tools that could be offered to help squeeze a decent range increase if needed.
Stuart
06-01-2012, 06:44 PM
The one design change I would make is the original one suggested on this thread to disable the creep as soon as the brakes are engaged. I've tried doing the equivalent by switching to neutral while braking, and it works perfectly with a nice clean smooth stop. It's a pain to switch to neutral on every stop, but there's no reason Tesla couldn't do the same in the firmware.
I was driving my old manual-transmission Volvo V70 today, and I noticed how I habitually and automatically come to a smooth stop every time.
I depress the clutch pedal, gently reduce the brake pedal pressure as the car slows, and as the car comes to a perfectly smooth stop with no lurch or kickback, the handbrake goes on. (Yes, the handbrake always goes on. That stops the car rolling when one foot's on the clutch pedal and the other's getting ready to press the accelerator to start off again. Call me odd if you like; I was taught to drive by a strict British driving instructor.)
I was struck by the disappointing fact that it's near-impossible to drive my Roadster with the same level of skill that I drive my manual Volvo. With the automatic-transmission-emulating creep fighting the brakes, it's impossible to bring the brake pressure completely to zero as the car stops, so it's impossible to stop the car without that little final kickback.
I say "near-impossible" because I can achieve a smooth stop in the Roadster, but it's a clumsy process:
1. As you're slowing down, pay close attention to the exact moment when the motor switches over from "regen braking" mode to "creep forward" mode, and shift from Drive to Neutral at that exact moment (I have 2008 model with the shifter knob, which helps). Now creep is disengaged.
2. From there use the brake pedal to bring the speed gently down to a smooth stop.
3. As the car gently slows to a complete stop: Brake pedal finishes coming up, handbrake goes on, perfect smooth stop achieved. Success!
Starting off again typically goes like this:
1. Shift into Drive, ready to release handbrake and depress accelerator.
2. BEEP BEEP BEEP, Car says, "Depress brake pedal before shifting into Drive."
3. Move foot from accelerator pedal back to brake pedal.
4. Press brake pedal.
5. "D" light continues blinking.
6. Shift into Neutral.
7. Shift back into Drive.
8. "D" light now illuminates.
9. Remove foot from brake pedal.
10. Note at this point that the car is still *not* creeping. If you doubt me, get in a Roadster and try it. You'll notice that if you release the handbrake, creep does not re-engage until two or three seconds later. The firmware is evidently smart enough to sense that the car is not moving and the handbrake is on, so creep is disabled. (Also note that this fails to achieve the stated safety goal: With the car in Drive and the handbrake on, a child or dog could still press the accelerator and generate enough torque to rocket the Roadster through a concrete wall.)
11. Now release handbrake, depress accelerator, and drive smoothly away.
I was struck by the irony that driving my "automatic" Roadster is so much harder work than driving my "manual" Volvo.
On this forum there are a lot of calls for a user-option to turn off creep. I don't think this is helpful. Giving the user lots of configuration options is not good design. Configuration options are a way of making the user finish your product design process for you, and that's not good design. Good design is making the product just work right, without the user having to tweak the settings, or make crucial decisions about design tradeoffs that you weren't willing or able to make yourself. (See "Joel on Software", such as "Choices" — "design is the art of making choices" (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html) and "Choices = Headaches" (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html).)
Good design is making something that everyone likes and doesn't feel the need to tweak or customize.
I really think that if Tesla prototyped my suggestion of having the brake pedal suppress creep, they'd find it makes everyone happy. The people who like creep (36% in this teslamotorsclub poll) would be happy because if they sit with the car in Drive, it creeps forward like they want. And most of the people who don't like creep (64%), like me, would be happy because as long as either the handbrake or brake pedal is applied, the car is not trying to creep. (The only group of people still unhappy would be the ones who want the car to stay still even when no brake is applied, and that group may be empty — if a car's on even a slight slope with no brake applied it's probably going to roll forwards or backwards anyway, so what do those people expect?)
Electric cars don't simulate the lurch of an automatic transmission changing gears, so why make them simulate other unnecessary characteristics of a 1950s automatic transmission?
Safety? Yes, I'm fully in favor of it.
Unnecessarily simulating the drawbacks of a primitive mechanical device from the previous century? No, I don't think we need that.
Robert.Boston
06-01-2012, 07:02 PM
Unfortunately, we can't even follow this method for a perfect stop in the Model S, as the parking brake engages and disengages automatically.
NigelM
06-01-2012, 07:21 PM
But how does the dog release the handbrake?
smorgasbord
06-01-2012, 08:15 PM
I really think that if Tesla prototyped my suggestion of having the brake pedal suppress creep, they'd find it makes everyone happy.
I used to not think this was a problem, but now that I've been driving my Roadster for almost a full year now, I now dislike the creep fighting me on stopping. I strongly encourage Tesla to at least explore Stuart's suggestion for a better driving experience.
tennis_trs
06-01-2012, 08:59 PM
I used to not think this was a problem, but now that I've been driving my Roadster for almost a full year now, I now dislike the creep fighting me on stopping. I strongly encourage Tesla to at least explore Stuart's suggestion for a better driving experience.
After about 2.75 years of driving my Roadster (27,000 miles), I still haven't noticed this, even though I've read this thread before. I'll have to make an effort to pay attention some time and see what all of the fuss is about. Regardless, I expect that there are other things (and probably easier things) that I'd rather have changed ahead of this.
First thing I want to test on a Model S drive.
Been thinking about shoot a video of this with a Roadster, some flat level ground, a slight incline, and a glass of water.
slcasner
06-02-2012, 12:16 AM
The only group of people still unhappy would be the ones who want the car to stay still even when no brake is applied, and that group may be empty — if a car's on even a slight slope with no brake applied it's probably going to roll forwards or backwards anyway, so what do those people expect?I think the main desire in this category is for the car to come to a complete stop without requiring use of the brakes, e.g. when coming up to a stop sign. Bill Arnett has stated this desire several times. He mentioned getting a "failed to stop" ticket because he was trying to get by with one-pedal negotiation of a stop sign with no traffic.
NigelM
06-02-2012, 05:36 AM
I'm with *tennis*, it really doesn't bother me at all. In fact I rather like creep as it seems to provide me with just about the right amount of traction on the few inclines we have in FL. Not to say that you guys shouldn't have what you want but even a poll with arguably questionable wording shows that a fair number want to keep creep; so the one point where I disagree with *Stuart* is imposing no-creep on everyone.
dsm363
06-02-2012, 05:46 AM
I actually didn't even really notice this was a problem until this thread. I still don't see anything wrong with it but can understand why people don't like it. I'd like any solution to be an option as well.
jerry33
06-02-2012, 06:31 AM
+1 for having it optional because I don't like forced choices. I don't like the creep mode in the Prius either--It uses a minimum of 500 Wh. The nice thing is that the Prius actually tells you when you are in creep mode (the tires spin on the energy display).
daniel
06-02-2012, 06:50 AM
<...snip...> it's a clumsy process <...snip...> I was struck by the irony that driving my "automatic" Roadster is so much harder work than driving my "manual" Volvo. <...snip...> Unnecessarily simulating the drawbacks of a primitive mechanical device from the previous century? No, I don't think we need that.
All that hassle and rigamarole just to avoid the tiny little bump when stopping??? I agree that it would be nice to be allowed to turn off creep, and be able to stop smoothly. But rather than turning the process of coming to a stop into something about as complicated as brain surgery, I'll just live with the "bump," thank you very much. It's not that big a deal, and even in a manual-transmission car, most people expect the stopping bump anyway. :wink:
I'm much more concerned about the black hole under the seat that collects any coins or other small objects I have in my pockets, never to be seen again. :crying: Or the piece-of-garbage Alpine unit. :scared: And none of that (certainly not the bump) detracts from the fun of driving the coolest car ever built.
strider
06-03-2012, 11:12 AM
Stuart, when sitting at at stop you should leave your foot ON the brake and not rely on the handbrake to hold you. This is because with only the handbrake the brake lights are not lit and so someone may not see you stopped there. So leave your foot on the brake. In this position the creep is NOT engages (Jerry33, no power is being consumed when stopped). Then the car will not complain when you switch into D and off you go.
I think there should be a menu setting for creep as I want the car to act like a Segway - the computer should keep the car from rolling forward or back when transitioning from brake to throttle. Basically the car should not move unless I gave a control input.
This should be even easier to manage in Model S as they can just automatically shift into Park and engage the e-brake whenever the driver gets out of the seat. Then require the fob to shift back into D or R. This eliminates the child or dog problem.
jerry33
06-03-2012, 12:20 PM
(Jerry33, no power is being consumed when stopped)
That's great for the Roadster. In the Prius, no power is consumed (by the creep) if your foot is firmly on the brakes. If you only lightly have them on it will use 500Wh of power at least.
I'd like the creep to be user selectable.
AnOutsider
06-22-2012, 07:57 PM
Model S has creep:
Put in Drive with the selector stalk, the car began to creep forward, at a slow pace fine for stop-and-go traffic or seeking a space in a crowded parking lot. Then I touched the accelerator. The response was instantaneous. A push of my foot, and the car surged forward. It took very little to make the car move, and in my initial flirtation with the Model S, I felt the accelerator might even be too sensitive, at least for crawling around residential streets at the posted limits.
Tesla Model S first drive: Quiet satisfaction | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57459125-48/tesla-model-s-first-drive-quiet-satisfaction/)
As suggested, if the creep shut off when the brake is pressed then the jerky motion would not be a problem.
I just heard that it's available without creep - No creep yeah!
... Probably a user configurable option.
Now we just need to be able to tweak the Roadster.
QB 45
06-25-2012, 10:08 AM
I think creep should be disabled as long as the brake pedal is depressed. It would allow for easy rolling through parking lots and such, while still allowing for smooth complete stops, no unnecissary energy consumption while stopped, and it would ensure the driver holds the brake pedal, keeping the brake lights on at traffic lights and such.
I think creep should be disabled as long as the brake pedal is depressed...
This seems like the best solution.
Tesla is worried about people walking away from the car (presumably with key in ignition or MS fob on the seat) and the car being "Live" and can move uncontrollably when the accelerator is pushed. Creep disabled when brake is pushed would still retain the runaway prevention creep implementation. If they can put an accelerometer on the brake lights this firmware change should be cake.
hcsharp
06-25-2012, 03:12 PM
This seems like the best solution.
Tesla is worried about people walking away from the car (presumably with key in ignition or MS fob on the seat) and the car being "Live" and can move uncontrollably when the accelerator is pushed. Creep disabled when brake is pushed would still retain the runaway prevention creep implementation. If they can put an accelerometer on the brake lights this firmware change should be cake.
Doesn't it already do this? If I press the brake pedal then creep shuts off. That's why we have jerky stops. The problem lies in how it is turned off. If it was more gradual we could come to a smooth stop. No?
Tesla 940
06-25-2012, 05:21 PM
I'm much more concerned about the black hole under the seat that collects any coins or other small objects I have in my pockets, never to be seen again. :crying: Or the piece-of-garbage Alpine unit. :scared: And none of that (certainly not the bump) detracts from the fun of driving the coolest car ever built.
+1 many times over! :biggrin:
That Alpine is an outrageous embarrsement. :mad:
dsm363
06-25-2012, 05:28 PM
+1 many times over! :biggrin:
That Alpine is an outrageous embarrsement. :mad:
Yes! If a firmware update would fix this issue for people, I'm all for that but coming up with a replacement for the Alpine would be great. Maybe Tesla could design their own unit with their Model S experience to replace the Alpine. That would be cool.
wycolo
06-26-2012, 08:18 AM
P > D = loud clunk - this means heavy duty contactor (relay) has been activated. Also same vice versa. Likewise in & out of R (??).
So whatever mods are being proposed here, none should add more contactor activity; all should be done with software/firmware/solid-state devices. So as not to contribute to contactor wearing out at faster rate. Make sense?
I assume loud 'clunk' NOT being created by a 'feel good' noisemaker.
--
Doesn't it already do this? If I press the brake pedal then creep shuts off. That's why we have jerky stops. The problem lies in how it is turned off. If it was more gradual we could come to a smooth stop. No?
As stated upthread #1 the "problem with creep" is that it fights with the brake. This makes the jerky stops. So I would say no, it does not shut off when the brake is depressed.
P > D = loud clunk - this means heavy duty contactor (relay) has been activated. Also same vice versa. Likewise in & out of R (??).
So whatever mods are being proposed here, none should add more contactor activity; all should be done with software/firmware/solid-state devices. So as not to contribute to contactor wearing out at faster rate. Make sense?
I assume loud 'clunk' NOT being created by a 'feel good' noisemaker.
--
That's just the parking pawl engaging and disengaging.
Pawlhttps://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQgyD3qnPVtLC1JtZ94azKtKtxuwWTMsay5b2x_g5GZjQgg6at3UKDT-SKsw
Parking Pawl
7123
Lloyd
06-26-2012, 09:24 AM
Personally during my drive I found coming to a smoth stop extreemly easy, in fact easier than any car I have driven, and without effort! This should not be an issue for anyone. I believe Tesla got it very right.
That's just the parking pawl engaging and disengaging.
Yes, contactors should not be opening and closing once the car is turned on.
hcsharp
06-26-2012, 07:25 PM
As stated upthread #1 the "problem with creep" is that it fights with the brake. This makes the jerky stops. So I would say no, it does not shut off when the brake is depressed.
It definitely shuts off on my car. Yours may be different. Here's what happens: You brake and slow to 1-2 mph when it transitions from regen to creep. You keep applying brakes but more lightly in hopes of coming to a smooth stop. Meanwhile creep is still on so the brakes are applied more than they need to be if you had no creep. Then suddenly just before final stop, creep shuts off and you come to a jerky stop because your brakes are still applied hard enough to overcome creep, but creep is now off. If you keep your foot on the brake while stopped, creep will stay off. Cinergi described it in post 28 and you can observe the amps drop when fully stopped and creep is off. If they kept creep on a second longer you could stop smoother, but still not perfect.
One solution to the jerky stop would be to transition the creep off a little slower so you could adjust brake pressure accordingly and stop smoothly. Not sure why they don't do that. There may be a minimum amount of power they have to send the motor due to a minimum duty cycle of the PWM electronics, preventing a smoother shut-down of power. Maybe they tried other methods of shutting down creep and it created other problems... So many times I wish I could interview the engineers who worked on this or that.
So creep should be on for a second more or shut off a second earlier.
:mad:
wycolo
06-28-2012, 09:57 AM
Want ME one'a them squeeze horns!!
Doug_G
06-28-2012, 12:58 PM
There's a hill near my house, where if I let off the brake the car just sits there. It consumes more power when my foot is off the brake, because the creep is holding it stationary. When I put my foot back down again the power drops back.
Incidentally, the Model S seemed very smooth to me. Maybe they've done it a bit better.