View Full Version : Project Better Place
tonybelding
10-29-2007, 05:46 AM
Shai Agassi's company finally has a name! It's "Project Better Place" -- as in, making the world a better place. (It's too bad "Feel Good Cars" was already taken, don't you think?)
Also, it turns out that PBP isn't a car company. Instead their goal is to set up networks of charging stations and battery-exchange stations in urban areas.
“We’re basically saying this is just like the cellular phone model,” he said. “If you think of Tesla as the iPhone, we’re AT&T.”
Here's the company website:
http://www.projectbetterplace.com/
Here are some articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/29/technology/29agassi.html
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2007/db20071027_825187.htm
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-shai-agassi-launches-alternative-transportation-venture-/2007/10/29/3050233.htm
Note the NYT article which incorrectly -- and infuriatingly -- blames Tesla's delays on problems with the battery pack. As far as I can tell, the ESS has been about the most trouble-free component in the car.
That sounds like a tough business model. If we had a lot of EV users clamoring for recharging spots and replacement batteries then I could see the need, but it sounds like a chicken and egg problem right now. They are going to be competing with people who already can do recharging at home.
Good luck to them.
Perhaps if they have Tesla Roadsters for lease, I might find them useful!
Perhaps Tesla's success with the VCs has caught the eye of other "serial entrepreneurs?"
By the way, Google has been soliciting proposals (https://services.google.com/inquiry/rechargerfp) for plug-in hybrid projects to fund.
Brent
10-29-2007, 01:30 PM
Based on what I read, it seems he wants to attack the battery problem largely from the swap angle, but also set up a recharge network. Perhaps he's hedging his bets.
I think he has several huge challenges ahead:
1) Convincing auto makers to go electric;
2) Convincing auto makers to use his standard, rather than whatever they come up with;
3) Convincing auto makers that they can design a safe car that can allow for quick changes of batteries that are heavy, cumbersome, and possibly lethal;
4) Convincing drivers to recharge at his stations rather than at home, hotels, or elsewhere;
5) etc...
Like TEG, I wish him well, but I wonder whether he is crossing the bridge before he comes to it...
Why not invest the $200m in quick-charging batteries? Sounds like a hell of a lot better plan than revamping all of the infrastructure.
From what I understand, this business model is not meant for the US anyhow...It sounds someone plausible in Israel or other densely packed country. I think those VC dollars would do much better in another company, like ZAP--what does that tell you about what this investor thinks of the idea?
SByer
10-30-2007, 11:27 AM
Because charging any faster than Tesla's 3.5 hours won't work without major infrastructure improvements - Tesla is already pushing home charging about as hard as they can. To charge any faster starts requiring significant changes or improvements in cabling, thermal management, and electrical supply capacity.
I also think it's the wrong end of the equation to work on for BEVs - if you can work on the range enough, then the need to quick charge essentially goes away, and just having in place a matrix of potential overnight charging spots fills out the picture better than any attempt at coming up with a standard for quick-exchange batteries.
-Scott
Because charging any faster than Tesla's 3.5 hours won't work without major infrastructure improvements - Tesla is already pushing home charging about as hard as they can. To charge any faster starts requiring significant changes or improvements in cabling, thermal management, and electrical supply capacity.
I also think it's the wrong end of the equation to work on for BEVs - if you can work on the range enough, then the need to quick charge essentially goes away, and just having in place a matrix of potential overnight charging spots fills out the picture better than any attempt at coming up with a standard for quick-exchange batteries.
-Scott
Agreed. building gas stations 100 years ago made sense because there was a need, a standard delivery mechanism (a hose), and no existing infrastructure. Building an infrastructure to deliver electricity to cars today doesn't make sense to me. At best, you'll get 25 years out of them and be out of business.
The electricity delivery infrastructure in is already expanding to accommodate more than just cars.
There is no standard for delivery to the vehicle.
There is no standard for quick swap batteries.
Residential and community power generation is picking up speed.
And vehicle range will only improve.
Because charging any faster than Tesla's 3.5 hours won't work without major infrastructure improvements - Tesla is already pushing home charging about as hard as they can. To charge any faster starts requiring significant changes or improvements in cabling, thermal management, and electrical supply capacity.
-Scott
That sounds like one of those quotes that suggests there can be no more advances in technology because everything has been invented.
I get that you can't charge your car in ten minutes by plugging into a 220 volt receptical. There are supercaps, which can be used for disbursing lots of energy at once. A combination of a regular battery and supercap may solve the quick charge problem. You could let your home charging station run essentially 24/7 gathering all of the energy needed to charge your EV, then connect the car for a 10 minute fill-up. Do I have a clue how to do it, no. But I'll bet there's some techies out there that do.
malcolm
10-31-2007, 06:39 AM
The advantage of slow recharging is reduced energy consumption. At present, a 3.5 hr charge of the 53 kWh ESS requires 70 kWh of energy (32% more energy!). The extra is needed to run the ESS cooling system. Slower charge rates generate less heat and reduce this energy overhead.
tonybelding
10-31-2007, 06:57 AM
It's a question of cost versus benefit.
Fast charging at home is not a priority, because your car is typically sitting there all night anyhow. So. . . Not much benefit. But the costs of a fast-charge system with some kind of buffer (supercapacitors, flywheels, etc.) and cable as thick as your arm would be much, much higher.
I feel like the only way fast charging could make economic sense is if you get people to accept cars with smaller batteries and reduced range. If the car's range is 60-100 miles, then charging in five or ten minutes isn't that far-fetched. The cars could be much less expensive. I can imagine lots of these little "city cars" and fast-charging stations deployed around the cities to support them. But then you are getting into the chicken-and-egg problem, because you need both the cars and the charging stations available before it makes much sense.
Tesla's approach, on the other hand, doesn't rely on the deployment of a big new charging infrastructure. It also doesn't rely on people long accustomed to gasoline cars with 300+ miles range suddenly deciding they can accept 60 or 100 miles.
With Tesla the downside is the cost of the car. To get that super-long range they have to use a very large and expensive battery, and then offset part of the battery's weight by using expensive materials (carbon fiber!) in the car.
The other way to go is PHEV, of course -- which is very promising. I think what GM are attempting with the Volt looks quite good.
Re: Fast charging
I'm in the "Hasn't been invented yet" school.
No one knows what developments are in the lab now. No one knows what Genius is about to have a brain flash that will change the entire battery paradigm.
Yes, the great next battery has been around the corner for 100 years but compare batteries from 20 years ago and you can see major improvements. The same could be done with charging solutions.
There have been many times in the past where science has cheated the laws of physics with clever workarounds. The answer might be chemical, mechanical, electrical (!), biological, or E., all of the above.
Speculation:
A fat cable at a charging station should be ubiquitous. Maybe the batteries can be “tricked” into charging in parallel to avoid overheating; maybe the batteries are immersed in bacta to stay cool while charging. I also like the not-yet-found amazon bug solution.
BTW, Utracaps have such a neat name they should be added to and charging mix just for the cool factor
tonybelding
10-31-2007, 10:02 AM
What hasn't been invented yet?
Batteries? I think the batteries existing today are adequate. They aren't the perfect, ultimate batteries, but they are good enough to proceed with -- and way, way better than lead-acid, which EVs were saddled with for about 100 years.
It's funny how there are reactionaries in the EV community who seem unhappy about new battery technology. According to the Wikipedia article on the RAV4 EV:
"A number of electric vehicle advocates voiced disappointment that the choice was made to manufacture only the NiMH version. Many electric vehicle advocates claim that automaker's choice of the NiMH battery worked against the 90's deployment of cost-effective electric vehicles based on PbA batteries, and that further development of Lead-acid technology could result in performance equal to NiMH, but at a substantially lower price."
Then there's Doug Korthoff who appeared in the Who Killed movie. He's a great advocate of EVs, but the poor guy just won't give it a rest when it comes to NiMH batteries. He's convinced that GM could build the Chevy Volt "today" using NiMH cells, and the fact that they aren't doing so proves they aren't serious about the whole thing. It's just another GM greenwashing smoke screen.
I tried to explain to him, it takes GM three-to-four years to bring a new car platform from concept to production -- that means any car, even completely conventional ones. Switching from Li-ion to NiMH now wouldn't make it happen any faster, but would make the car less competitive when it hits the market in 2010/2011. Furthermore, in order to use NiMH cells, GM (or their suppliers) would have to challenge Chevron's patents in court.
Then there's Doug Korthoff who appeared in the Who Killed movie. He's a great advocate of EVs, but the poor guy just won't give it a rest when it comes to NiMH batteries...
...Yes... Being a NiMH EV owner, I tried to point out that NiMH is likely to remain cost prohibitive because the rising costs of Nickel, but it didn't seem there is much I could say to change the tune.
http://www.coinflation.com/spot-nickel-1y.gif
The kind of people (me included) who are "bullheaded" enough to buck the trend and be an early adopter of EVs tend to be rather opinionated about things. Tesla seems to be the best hope of breaking through that barrier and finding more mainstream customers who just want in because it is "cool" rather than "different".
I get the impression that Tesla is trying to ease us into a new mindset of thinking that serial hybrids are a good idea, but I am already convinced and fixated that pure EVs are the answer. Some people are just slow to change direction and hang on to a certain point of view. Others will follow whatever latest marketing is the hip trend of the moment.
Tony wrote:
"What hasn't been invented yet? "
Think big Tony.
We don't know what we don't know.
Kardax
11-01-2007, 10:12 AM
All those Chevron NiMH patents are going to expire early next decade, though, so we may see a resurgence of that technology then. Of course, by that time it'll be competing with a variety of advanced lithium-ion-based technologies, among other things.
The only real certainty is that the EV battery situation is going to look very different 10 years from now than it does today. Building a battery-swap infrastructure today is that much more stupid because of it.
Chargers could be an ugly standards battle. We know Tesla has their own proprietary connector... the ZEV-mandate-era EVs used their own... who knows what other players will use?
I don't really care who wins, as long as it's able to automatically negotiate the highest possible wattage, and can also charge my credit card if any fees are necessary.
-Ryan / Kardax
(topic split off from a different one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9bc4vNccL0
WarpedOne
12-20-2007, 01:33 AM
Hey, this car IS a Renault Laguna II that is currently being phased out and replaced with Laguna III that looks kinda different. Just a coincidence or is it really Renault that big carmaker that is trying to go there?
Kardax
12-20-2007, 07:18 AM
I think I did read somewhere that Renault is the one PBP is working with, so it makes sense that one of their cars would appear in the video.
It still makes my head spin to think about all the robotic engineering it would take to create an automated battery swapping system that works with more than one model of car...
-Ryan
It still makes my head spin to think about all the robotic engineering it would take to create an automated battery swapping system that works with more than one model of car...
-Ryan
Not to mention it's really unnecessary.
malcolm
12-31-2007, 06:30 AM
Update on funding
Ofer to invest $30 mln in electric car deal | Environment | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUKL2716086020071227)
Another news story (with Kent (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/off-topic/672-ken-kent-kerry-beauchrt-beuchert-beuchrt-biker-rider-krider.html) responding as usual):
Free cars for the world? » P2P Foundation (http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/free-cars-for-the-world/2008/01/05)
hailstorm
01-13-2008, 03:26 AM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-U1U9HSviU0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-U1U9HSviU0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Another video created by PBP. It's in response to The Davos Question (http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/davos-question.html), which is "What one thing do you think that countries, companies or individuals must do to make the world a better place in 2008?".
I help out with moderating the PBP forums. I'd invite anyone interested to drop by and join the discussions at Project Better Place (http://www.projectbetterplace.com)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyUJAcctGA8
0-60 in about 13 seconds.
Range about 80 miles.
Ho-hum specs.
Probably needs a rather small pack to keep the price down low enough.
It will be interesting to see if this initiative really gets widespread "traction" in Israel. Looks like we will need to wait a decade to see what happens.
malcolm
03-18-2008, 02:03 PM
25 minute video presentation by Shai from 12th march 2008
A Moment of Transformation? Shai Agassi Speaks in Washington, DC (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6115647726887047092)
Cobos
03-18-2008, 05:32 PM
He mentioned the "magical" tax regime for EVs vs gasoline cars. We already have that in Norway and have had that since around 1990s. As our is progressive depending on pollution level it goes from around 70% extra for 520i series BMW upto about 150% extra for the M5. So hopefully we'll see a similar launch from PBP here in Norway as well as Israel.
Cobos
I'm glad I spent the time to watch the video. (Even after Barack's yesterday). I had thought the concept of making a plug in infrastructure was good of course but pretty impractical.
His presentation makes it sound so easy. So simple. It's one of those ideas that is beautifully elegent in it's simpliciy. A no brainer that everyone can (and should!) do.
Believe me, I read the hype about the concept and the man and thought at best "Ho Hum". But the video really made me excited for the future.
With 30 Planned Countries in total, Denmark will mark second to copy Project Better Place.
iTWire - Denmark signs deal to implement Israel’s electric car project (http://www.itwire.com/content/view/17370/1103/)
Approximately 20 % of Denmark's electric generation is derived from wind turbine power. The Danish wind turbine industry is the worlds largest. Denmark has installed 5,500 wind turbines as of 2004. Earlier opinion polls show 86 % of Danes supporting wind turbine power. The near term goal will be to produce 35 % of total energy by 2015 and continue constructing from there to possibly reach half-way point.
Sources:
Wikipedia.com
Windpower.org
domenick
05-11-2008, 11:37 AM
No battery swapping for you!!!
I haven't posted a sighting in a while and I'm only doing so now because of the name used is "kerry bradshaw" and the fact that it's in Haaretz.
Response Details (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?itemno=982331&resNo=3494652)
Agassi`s scheme is an oxymoron that has been rejected many times in the past - the idea od swappable batteries is an old one and also one that makes no economic sense. It simply increases the very cost that make electric cars
not viable alernatives -the cost of batterie. making them cost the same as israel`s sky high gas prices is no solution - all those taxes will be lost and replaced by nothing. Plug-in hybrids are the only slution that makes any sense - Israel`s govt has been conned into belieiving that a pure electric car has some advantage over a plug-in in reducting gasoline dependence. It demonstrably does not - it merely makes the cost of electric propulstion exorbitant. taking his pound of flesh one day at a time is Agassi`s scheme to rape Israeli drivers. And if the EEStor ultra capacitors work as planned, his whole sceme comes tumbling down and is totally obsoelte even before the first of his exorbitantly priced "system" can be installed. Agassi is simply a con man.
While I don't agree with his tone, nor his personal attacks, I basically concur with his main point. I don't see the point in building a battery swapping infrastructure. I do think full electric is the eventual future. It will come gradually as the price of batteries comes down, or perhaps more quickly if there is a break through in storage (e.g. EEStore, perhaps). Till then plug-in hybrids are a good stepping-stone technology.
Cobos
05-11-2008, 04:03 PM
I don't get why everyone always gets all worked up about the batteryswap. Yes I do realise in itself batteryswap is not very interesting in the same way as quick-charging is not. But if you look at PBPs plans their idea is to cover about 30-50% of every parking space with an outlet. The 100-150 swap station intended to cover entire Isreal is to slightly extend the range and mostly show they can. This will also remove the argument everyone is using that everyone in an apartment can't use an EV or REEV. And this is the genius in the plan, the reason Agassi raised more money than Tesla did within a pretty short time.
Cobos
One of my problems with battery swapping is it's an attempt at a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. The idea that an EV has to have more than a 200 mile range is a misconception, especially in a small country such as Israel. A 100 mile range EV would probably suffice for most of it's residents.
If you can go more than 3 days without stopping at a gas station to refill your ICE then you're probably driving less than 100 miles a day.
VIDEO: San Francisco mayor in talks with Project Better Place - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/14/video-san-francisco-mayor-in-talks-with-project-better-place/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXGqvkBdenw
Deutsche Bank analysts say electric cars viable - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/09/deutsche-bank-analysts-say-electric-cars-viable/)
I love the 25 minute video of Shai and have asked many to watch it for it's clarity.
While I don't agree with a lot of what she is saying, I thought a counter opinion was worth a read: Karin Kloosterman: Green Smoke and Mirrors: A Voice of Reason On Israel's Electric Car Hype - Green on The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karin-kloosterman/green-smoke-and-mirrors-a_b_105302.html)
btw, this is a new "green" site/page...
Cobos
06-05-2008, 10:34 PM
It's worth a read, but she also has this hangup on battery swap stations. If you discard the battery swap issue point 1 and 2 goes out. The Renault-Nissan car uses regular standard power, it doesn't need specialflavored electrons. She continues to spread the myth about batteries wear out quickly.
She does have a point in that this might increase number of cars in Israel quite a bit, and for congestion purposes building train/light rail is a lot more sensible.
Then she comes with the silly Israel burns coal argument, so what, using dirty coal EVs are still MORE efficient, and from there it can only go up. Not to mention the security argument of foreign oil, which should be VERY relevant to Israel.
Cobos
Israel backs Palo Alto man's electric car plan (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/17/MN1F112F1P.DTL)
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/06/16/bu-israel17_car_ph_0495525228.jpg
Good article. Best overall view of the PBP to date.
dpeilow
07-20-2008, 08:10 AM
Ministers embrace electric car revolution - Green Living, Environment - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/ministers-embrace-electric-car-revolution-872393.html)
Gordon Brown is to launch the biggest revolution in the way Britons drive since the development of the internal combustion engine. He will meet manufacturers this week to try to persuade them to mass-produce electric cars, and is considering a remarkable plan to sell the cars cheap, together with their fuel, that is modelled on mobile-phone contracts.
The scheme, which has already been taken up by Israel and Denmark, would sell heavily subsidised vehicles – or even give them away – in return for contracts to buy the electricity to charge them.
...
He also wants to "incentivise" the rapid changeover to electric vehicles in Britain, and so is studying the mould-breaking scheme being promoted by the 38-year-old entrepreneur, Shai Agassi, backed by $200m (£100m) of venture capital.
malcolm
07-20-2008, 08:29 AM
Oh God! Hard not to have that sinking feeling in the present context of tax u-turns and poorly thought-through initiatives.
(I'm British and as such, I crave disappointment, which this government seems to deliver :biggrin:)
dpeilow
07-20-2008, 08:41 AM
Gordon Brown needs all the help he can get in the polls at the moment. Perhaps saying "you can all have a free car" is exactly what he needs :smile:.
To be fair, it's about time the government offered the public a few more carrots, rather than seemingly endless sticks, on sustainable transport.
malcolm
07-20-2008, 08:47 AM
To be fair, it's about time the government offered the public a few more carrots, rather than seemingly endless sticks, on sustainable transport.
Usless the EV they have in mind is the G-Wiz :frown:
Chris H.
07-20-2008, 08:51 AM
dp,
this is great news! That a country with the population of the UK (and the attendant potential EV sales) is making a serious move towards embracing EVs for personal transportation, is a fantastic sign for the rapid, and widespread, adoption of EVs in the rest of the developed world. The high cost of petrol, and the relatively high population density, should make this a successful program in the UK.
I just wish this were also happening in Canada. Unfortunately, our present national government is quite resistant to the adoption of EVs, due to the PM being from Calgary, which is the epicentre of the Canadian oil industry. Oil money helped get him where he is right now, and EV's are a threat to big oil, so guess what....?
Anyway, long live the rEVolution! :smile:
All the best,
Chris H.
I wonder if Tesla and "Better Place" can coordinate. It would be a shame if "Better Place" put in a lot of charger infrastructure that was incompatible with Tesla charging.
WarpedOne
07-20-2008, 11:28 AM
I wonder if Tesla and "Better Place" can coordinate. It would be a shame if "Better Place" put in a lot of charger infrastructure that was incompatible with Tesla charging.
You mean future Model S quick charging?
Current Roadsters should not have any problems utilizing any 240V/80A source.
I wonder if Tesla and "Better Place" can coordinate. It would be a shame if "Better Place" put in a lot of charger infrastructure that was incompatible with Tesla charging.
I just said that (!)
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/future-cars/1305-improving-functionality-2.html#post9879:cool:
You mean future Model S quick charging?
Current Roadsters should not have any problems utilizing any 240V/80A source.
I don't know if Better Place will offer a proprietary plug interface or something "open standard". If proprietary, perhaps a "better place to Tesla" adapter could be produced.
Old RAV4EV and RangerEVs have their own plug standards that are different from what Tesla uses.
I just said that (!)
Hadn't seen your other post yet. We are thinking the same thing. This point has been made before. It just becomes all the more significant since Better Place appears to be headed to the UK as well as Tesla. It wasn't such a big deal when Tesla was US only, and Better Place seemed to be Israel only, but now they will be in the same market.
dpeilow
07-21-2008, 03:58 AM
Electric cars could be given away free - Mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/07/21/electric-cars-could-be-given-away-free-89520-20656796/)
This more than demonstrates the quality of journalism in a typical British tabloid...
Mr Brown will meet manufacturers this week to try to persuade them to mass-produce electric cars.
He will then outline his plans to accelerate the use of electric cars at the Motor Show this week.
It was also revealed yesterday that inventor James Dyson is working on a fast battery-powered car with a solar panels. At the moment, electric cars can only go around 30mph.
We are thinking the same thing.
Great minds...
hailstorm
07-22-2008, 08:52 AM
Just to clear up any confusion about standards. Project Better Place plan on using any existing standards in market or creating new ones if they don't exist. They have hired Ziva Patir to concentrate on this as mentioned in this press release:
Project Better Place Appoints Patir to Lead International Standardization Efforts | Project Better Place (http://www.projectbetterplace.com/project-better-place-appoints-patir-lead-international-standardization-efforts)
dpeilow
07-22-2008, 10:42 AM
Labour: Gordon Brown kick-starts green car plan (http://www.labour.org.uk/green_car_plan,2008-07-22)
Proposals include:
• Removing barriers in the planning system to enable an electric charging network to be set up as quickly as possible.
• Collaborating with other countries - including Germany, France, Denmark, and Portugal - on international industry standards.
• Launching a study on issues relating to the development and commercialisation of electric cars, with findings to be included in a low-carbon manufacturing strategy in the autumn.
• Working with the National Grid and energy companies to assess the impact on the electricity system of the widespread use of electric vehicles and ensure adequate capacity.
• Providing more than £90m of funding for UK research, development and demonstration of low carbon vehicles over the next five years, and an additional £20m to provide lead markets for low carbon vehicles through the use of strategic public procurement.
• Accelerating the pace of transition to low emissions vehicles, so that within the next three years new car purchases for all Government departments average 130g/km CO2 or less.
BBC NEWS | UK | Brown drives green car revolution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7518683.stm)
Mr Brown outlined measures aimed at assisting the changeover to low carbon and electric vehicles.
He said the government was working towards a situation where electric-powered cars could be charged in thousands of streets, and it would spend £90m over the next five years to reduce carbon emissions from vehicles.
Nothing specific about Project Better Place, though.
CNN Video:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/31/shubert.mideast.electric.car.cnn)
I will be shocked if cars are on the road by the end of 2008. If it happens, smaller countries, in particular island countries like Britain, Japan, etc. may buy in to Shai's idea. I hope it works.
hailstorm
08-01-2008, 02:19 PM
I don't think 2008 is quite accurate. Prototypes are likely to arrive in 2009. Limited production to start in 2010 and then mass production will happen in 2011. The car shown in the video is just a conversion. Shai Agassi has mentioned that he hopes to have 50 conversions ready this year to use in Israel for giving test drives and getting people educated and used to what an electric car feels like to drive.
Deutsche Bank: Electric Cars Could Wipe Gas Cars off the Map | SolveClimate.com (http://solveclimate.com/blog/20080409/deutsche-bank-electric-cars-could-wipe-gas-cars-map)
Deutsche Bank: Electric Cars Could Wipe Gas Cars off the Map | SolveClimate.com (http://solveclimate.com/blog/20080409/deutsche-bank-electric-cars-could-wipe-gas-cars-map)
At some point Big Oil will begin a smear campaign against Shai. Of course they will fight the logic but they will attack the messenger. Who knows? Maybe KB is the tip of the paid iceberg.
By the way, there were some well reasoned comments on this page. Not counting the one that said, "douche bags".
Driven: Shai Agassi's Audacious Plan to Put Electric Cars on the Road (http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-09/ff_agassi)
graham
08-28-2008, 02:30 PM
Last Winter when Tesla was still testing out the idea of the WhiteStar having a range extender, they also made some comment about it possibly having swappable batteries. I took this to mean they were considering partnering with Project Better Place. Has anyone heard anything new now that the WhiteStar is the Model S? PBP doesn't make sense for the Roadster, but it might make sense for the Model S.
After reading the Wired article, I had some more thoughts about Better Place.
Better Place has an entirely different business model from Tesla. Better Place wants to make money selling the power you use to recharge the EVs. They want someone else to make the EVs, and they want to sell them at a subsidized discount and then make money in the long run as they maintain and refill your battery pack. Better Place seems to be "inventing" a smart charging infrastructure that will direct you to the appropriate charger at the appropriate times. In some cases this will take into account grid capacity and request that you charge when there is extra power available. I bet they get into V2G someday too asking to attach your car to take power back when the grid needs some extra juice at that time.
If Better Place subsidizes the cars and the battery pack, then they need to charge above market rates for power. Would Tesla owners (who paid full price for their cars) want to pay inflated rates for power at Better Place power stations? I doubt it. Also, better place chargers will probably have proprietary protocols and perhaps even "security features" to make them only work with Better Place cars. To me, a risk item for Better Place would be if someone found a way to recharge their Better Place car using a non-better place charger. You could defeat their business model if you used power that doesn't include their needed mark-up. I bet they will engineer in all sorts of safety mechanisms to prevent this, but we know how resourceful some people can be at bypassing even well engineered systems.
I don't see Better Place cars using Tesla chargers, or Tesla cars using Better Place chargers. Perhaps the only possibility would be if Tesla made a special "Model S Better Place edition" that included the Better Place charging components. Then it would only charge at Better Place chargers and nowhere else.
...Just some thoughts...
SByer
08-28-2008, 10:06 PM
Marginalize your complement? You have to stumble into having a complement in the first place. It's never the things you avoid when getting things going. If you're too obvious a complement to a first mover, I don't think you ever get traction.
Cobos
08-28-2008, 10:34 PM
TEG: I beleive PBP will sell you a number of miles on your EV. That means you pay a subscription fee for your car essentially. If they tie that to the battery or power or whatever isn't really relevant. The idea is they've got an extensive recharge structure which you get access to by paying them a fee. Remember they are launching in countries like Denmark where there is a significant fee on gas-powered cars, and not on EVs. This will at first make up much of the price difference between an EV and a gas-fueled counterpart. If they get a good engineered version from Renault-Nissan they will start with a battery-less EV that is cheaper than the gas counterpart. Add inn the battery and the gasoline fees and the EV is more expensive. PBP then takes f. inst. a 3 year deal with you and you get a big rebate on the car from them dropping the EV to a cheaper price than the gasoline car. For PBP if they can sell a power access only membership to Tesla owners that will pay off as well. They get more value out of all the recharge stations everywhere and the Tesla owner pays a bit for the power and a bit for the convenience of charging "everywhere". Think of the car and battery as a cellphone. You can now buy cellphones for free with an expensive plan or you can pay the whole phone up front and get a better monthly plan. A regular PBP customer will be the former and a Tesla customer will be the latter.
Cobos
Last Winter when Tesla was still testing out the idea of the WhiteStar having a range extender, they also made some comment about it possibly having swappable batteries. I took this to mean they were considering partnering with Project Better Place. Has anyone heard anything new now that the WhiteStar is the Model S? PBP doesn't make sense for the Roadster, but it might make sense for the Model S.
The first and only time I heard Tesla mention a swappable battery pack was Elon's interview with Fareed Zakaria.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/news-articles-events/1348-fareed-zakaria-interviews-elon.html
Zakaria: Goodbye Gas Pump? A Solar-Powered Auto | Newsweek Future Of Energy | Newsweek.com (http://www.newsweek.com/id/145876)
[Fareed:] Most people travel less than 50 miles a day.
[Elon:] And 99 percent of travel is under 200 miles [a day]. There is the occasional road trip, but that's actually pretty rare, and for some people it's never. Our second model will address that rare case in two ways. One is to allow people to switch out the battery pack, so you can go to a battery-change station just like you'd go to a gas station. The second path is to have a high-speed charge. If you have a high-powered onboard charger, you can get an 80 percent charge in 45 minutes. If you're going from L.A. to San Francisco (http://www.newsweek.com/related.aspx?subject=San+Francisco), which is about a 400-mile trip, you can drive 200 miles, stop for lunch, charge your car in the restaurant parking lot, finish lunch and continue the remaining 200 miles to San Francisco.
Well, it will be interesting to see if Tesla and Better-Place ultimately compete, join forces or just coexist.
Kevin Harney
09-02-2008, 11:19 AM
An 80% charge in 45 minutes translates to what size outlet ? (in amps)
WarpedOne
09-02-2008, 01:48 PM
An 80% charge in 45 minutes translates to what size outlet ? (in amps)
If we assume it's ESS will store the same 53kWh as in Roadster than we have:
- 53kWh * 80% = 42kWh
- 42kWh in 1 hour => 42kW charger
- 42kWh in 45 min => 56kW charger
- add 20% for inefficiencies => 67kW charger
- 67kW at 240V will suck 280 ampers
- 67kW at 110V will suck 610 ampers
- 67kW at 380V will suck 180 ampers
- 67kW at 1000V will stil suck 67 amperes
Wanna bet we ain't gonna see that in practice?
Kevin Harney
09-03-2008, 05:42 AM
Well, I am not too familiar with what that math means here in the US. Aren't MOST outlets 110 V and 15A ? And isn't a large outlet 240V and 70A ? So does that mean that a two phase outlet would need to be 280A which is the equivalent of 4 outlets that are of rather large size ? Doesn't that exceed the available capacity of most of the electric panels in the US ?
WarpedOne
09-03-2008, 06:54 AM
>> Doesn't that exceed the available capacity of most of the electric panels in the US ?
Yes.
This is exactly why all this talk about quick charging is only mumbo jumbo.
Cobos
09-03-2008, 07:04 AM
I'll discuss if it's mumbo jumbo or just very unrealistic :) I do have faith that there will be some quick charging stations somewhere... Just not that quick and just not that normal.
It's a bit like talking about the highest digit on your speedometer. In theory your car can get up to that speed, downhill, with a headwind, right at the redline. But usually you really don't WANT to go that fast :)
Cobos
Kevin Harney
09-03-2008, 07:48 AM
I am not denying that there might be some quick charging stations around. But here in the US MOST people will be charging at home. And here in the US a 70A 2 phase 240V circuit is considered a very large residential circuit. much less a 280A circuit. Commercial may be a different baby all together and Elon did say stopping for lunch and charging would be faster.
...Elon did say stopping for lunch and charging would be faster.
Which is why context is necessary. "HOME" quick charging is unlikely.
(and arguably less needed)
Globes [online] - Israel business news - Renault delays electric car exports (http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=1000380721&fid=1725)
Environmental Capital - WSJ.com : Electric Avenue: Will Electric Cars Ever Be Mass-Market? (http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/10/07/electric-avenue-will-electric-cars-ever-be-mass-market/)
stopcrazypp
11-20-2008, 11:47 PM
Here's news of Project Better Place's plans for the Bay Area and EV charging:
Making Bay Area friendly for electric cars (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/20/BA1A1494TB.DTL)
There's a bit about SF Mayor Newsom's Roadster order and how he's having trouble working out how he's going to pay for the electricity since he's parked in a garage in an apartment.
Between Tesla talking about battery pack swap stations, and Gavin Newsom ("I need a place to charge my Tesla") talking about Better Place infrastructure, I am starting to think that Better Place and Tesla might be planning a collaboration of some sort.
Between Tesla talking about battery pack swap stations, and Gavin Newsom ("I need a place to charge my Tesla") talking about Better Place infrastructure, I am starting to think that Better Place and Tesla might be planning a collaboration of some sort.
If anything IMO there needs to be a "universal" type charging port with a Tesla adapter, PBP adapter, 110, 220, and adapters for whoever else is entering into production in the next 2 years PLUS A METER FOR CHARGING MONEY AND USE because it's coming sooner or later.
If anything IMO there needs to be a "universal" type charging port with a Tesla adapter, PBP adapter, 110, 220, and adapters for whoever else is entering into production in the next 2 years PLUS A METER FOR CHARGING MONEY AND USE because it's coming sooner or later.
Would it be too much to ask for the "universal" plug to include Avcon for my RangerEV and the Tango? Somehow I think they will probably do a new standard for next gen EVs and let the old standards fade away.
Would it be too much to ask for the "universal" plug to include Avcon for my RangerEV and the Tango? Somehow I think they will probably do a new standard for next gen EVs and let the old standards fade away.
Yes.
Seriously, Backwards compatible tech can seriously hurt new formats for a long time. (look at NTSC) I would ask how many public vehicles and how many chargers are there? Is it worth it? I'd rather give you $500 one time through the DMV to pay for backwards adaptors. Seriously.
An adapter would be fine. I just fear no way to hook up at all.
SF, Oakland, SJ's nine point plan released:
Mayor Office Press Room (http://www.sfgov.org/site/mayor_index.asp?id=93399)
Project Bette Place now Global Electric Transportation Company??
Thanks, VFX. That is a very "cool" development for us NorCal EV fans.
The article talks about "110V" as "low voltage".
I see the term "low voltage" used to describe 12V halogen lighting stepped down from 110V, so talking about 110V as "low voltage" seems a little weird.
Basically if it can shock me when I touch it I don't like to call it low voltage!
Looking online I find NEC Defintion of low voltage (http://www.chemicool.com/definition/national_electric_code_nec_low_voltage.html): "voltage between 50 and 600 V. [SEMI S2-91]", so even the Tesla 240V@70AMP is still technically "low voltage". I suppose the term has relative meaning depending on what you are describing in compared to something else.
From the NECs perspective, homes and businesses only ever deal with low voltage unless you are a power company running "high tension" distribution lines.
dpeilow
12-01-2008, 03:27 AM
Better Place to Build First U.S. Electric Vehicle Network in Bay Area Earth2Tech (http://earth2tech.com/2008/11/20/better-place-to-build-first-us-electric-vehicle-network-in-bay-area/)
Better Place to Build First U.S. Electric Vehicle Network in Bay Area Earth2Tech (http://earth2tech.com/2008/11/20/better-place-to-build-first-us-electric-vehicle-network-in-bay-area/)
Wow...that's a lot of money. I understand the Bay Area wants to be the pilot project of the Nation, but why not start it on a smaller scale? Couldn't they do it for 100 m. or so for swapping stations--just a few like they are doing with hydrogen stations? I mean really, how many EVs--compatible with PBP's stations will be on the road by 2010?
I like the end (paraphrased),
No noise, no engine, no tailpipe, no emissions. It's a no brainer.
graham
12-04-2008, 08:10 AM
Couldn't figure out if this should go in a Project Better Place thread or maybe that talk Martin gave a year or so ago to Hawaii explaining why it was a great place for electric cars. Mods: Please move this if appropriate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/technology/start-ups/03hawaii.html?_r=1&em=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1228406677-ABXYwwlunptB+tWJDMo6OQ
The State of Hawaii and the Hawaiian Electric Company on Tuesday endorsed an effort to build an alternative transportation system based on electric vehicles with swappable batteries and an “intelligent” battery recharging network.
The plan, the brainchild of the former Silicon Valley software executive Shai Agassi, is an effort to overcome the major hurdles to electric cars — slow battery recharging and limited availability.
By using existing electric car technologies, coupled with an Internet-connected web of tens of thousands of recharging stations, he thinks his company, Better Place L.L.C. of Palo Alto, Calif., will make all-electric vehicles feasible.
I love the idea of millions of worldly (and redneck) island tourists learning the perfection of Electric cars. The furtive manner it which it will spread will be sublime.
dpeilow
12-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Israel pilots electric car network | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/09/electric-car-israel-better-place)
CTV.ca | Startup company wires parking lot for electric cars (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081208/AUTOS_electric_cars_0801208/20081208?s_name=Autos)
http://www.betterplace.com/israel
http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20081208/668_electric_car_081208.jpg
and now in Japan http://www.betterplace.com/press-room/press-releases-detail/better-place-joins-subaru-other-japanese-carmakers-in-ministry-of-environme/
Aggasi equals Jobs (Steve) (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10friedman.html?_r=1&hp)
Bob Smith
12-12-2008, 08:17 PM
I love the idea of Better Place. Do they say when they are going to start here? I can not wait to be driving my roadster and have my son using Better Place while in school.
tomsax
12-15-2008, 05:19 PM
I don't understand the appeal of Project Better Place. They seem to want to have local governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars to put in infrastructure for EVs that don't exist yet. PBP wants to impose design constraints on EVs (their model of replaceable batteries), but won't be producing any themselves. PBP wants the high-margin charging business while EV producers get stuck competing for razor thin margins on commodity EVs. PBP want to be paid billions of dollars and get a monopoly on charging EVs so that they can impose cellphone-type plans on EV owners.
Do you love your relationship with your cellphone provider so much that you want to have your driving turned over to a cellphone-like company with government-sponsored monopoly power?
hailstorm
12-16-2008, 06:26 AM
I don't understand the appeal of Project Better Place. They seem to want to have local governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars to put in infrastructure for EVs that don't exist yet.
The way Better Place funds infrastructure deployment varies from country to country. In Israel for example it is being funded by private investment. Denmark they are working with DONG. Australia they are working with Macquarie to raise money. California it is VantagePoint Venture Partners.
I think Hawaii is the first place that is doing a public-private partnership. That may well be using public money. It's a far cry from Better Place going to each government begging for billions.
PBP wants to impose design constraints on EVs (their model of replaceable batteries), but won't be producing any themselves. PBP wants the high-margin charging business while EV producers get stuck competing for razor thin margins on commodity EVs. PBP want to be paid billions of dollars and get a monopoly on charging EVs so that they can impose cellphone-type plans on EV owners.
*Sigh* No one is being forced down the path of having replaceable batteries. If a car maker doesn't want to implement this into their cars they don't have to. It won't prevent you from using Better Place's charge spots.
Wherever possible they are using open stardards and creating new ones where they don't exist. If this is successful then there will be plenty of competitors to Better Place.
If you don't want to use any of their services at all then you can always charge up from home.
Do you love your relationship with your cellphone provider so much that you want to have your driving turned over to a cellphone-like company with government-sponsored monopoly power?
Again, stop with the fearmongering. If another company wants to come along and install a charging infrastructure they can do. Indeed in many countries now it has been an electric utility company that has installed charging stations.
Thank you Hailstorm. You blew in a breath of educated air.
Even if the financial model of PBP is suspect it will educate the world that EVs are possible and practical.
Martin's assertion about Hawaii is spot on. As a tourist destination for the entire world it will send out converted to every spot on the planet. When EVs come up in local conversation and for vote, there will be a seed planted in that town.
SanFran is also a tourist mecca -so more EV reinforcement. :smile:
I don't understand the appeal of Project Better Place. They seem to want to have local governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars to put in infrastructure for EVs that don't exist yet. ...
The "build it and they will come" approach seemed backwards to me too, but it does seem like they are getting some traction with it. There is still a big question if a large scale recharging or battery swap infrastructure is what is really needed to start things rolling. Are companies like Tesla held back because they expect predominantly home charging? Will chargers on every corner provide the inspiration for more people to want to buy EVs?
Anyone happen to know if any car manufacturers besides Nissan/Renault are on board to build PBP compatible vehicles?
Will chargers on every corner provide the inspiration for more people to want to buy EVs?
If they see a person across the street getting out of their car and plugging in while they are standing at a gas pump with rapidly climbing numbers.
dpeilow
12-16-2008, 08:57 AM
Anyone happen to know if any car manufacturers besides Nissan/Renault are on board to build PBP compatible vehicles?
Subaru?
Better Place Joins Subaru, Other Japanese Carmakers in Ministry of Environment Electric Vehicle Project (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/better-place-joins-subaru-other,648533.shtml)
Subaru?
Better Place Joins Subaru, Other Japanese Carmakers in Ministry of Environment Electric Vehicle Project (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/better-place-joins-subaru-other,648533.shtml)
Not exactly an agreement, but it sounds like that could lead to something.
With everyone else talking about economic slowdown spoiling their plans, I wonder if PBP is scaling back right now?
hailstorm
12-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Not exactly an agreement, but it sounds like that could lead to something.
With everyone else talking about economic slowdown spoiling their plans, I wonder if PBP is scaling back right now?
I've been following them quite closely. I did help them out for a while with forum moderation on their website up until recently.
If anything they have actually surprised me with how quick they have moved getting several big countries and states around the world to sign up.
My expectation was they would stick with just Israel and Denmark as proof of concept before approaching other countries.
I think the next major milestone for them is how quickly they can get all this new infrastructure installed in each country. Each country they are operating in appears to have its own subsidiary company set up in it so success could vary.
What I think is unclear at the moment is whether a car company has to support battery exchange to allow participation in the battery leasing pricing model and be eligible for the subsidy towards the purchase of the car.
graham
12-16-2008, 11:11 AM
Martin's assertion about Hawaii is spot on. As a tourist destination for the entire world it will send out converted to every spot on the planet. When EVs come up in local conversation and for vote, there will be a seed planted in that town.
Currently in Hawaii, and I would have to agree. This would be a great place for electric cars. And Solar. And Wind. And Geothermal. And Wave...
I just gotta stick in here that PBP solves the "which comes first?" problem. Car makers won't build EVs because there is no place to plug them in. No community or company wants to put up chargers without cars. Doing it a one expensive chunk at once gets the egg rolling. Who pays? I guess who feels they benefit most.
SByer
12-16-2008, 05:00 PM
Ok, so I still don't get all this worry about battery swapping. We talk about swapping out a known-good battery as a concern. Well, the battery quality is fairly directly related to the max charge it will take - something easily measurable and displayed. And nothing says that the swappable part has to constitute the whole battery. Yes, a custom battery wins on capacity partly because of all the corners you can tuck it into. So, keep tucking non-swappable parts into those corners. Then, you can get away with fewer, more brick-like configurations of the swappable part. Instead of getting another 200 miles on every swap, you just have to comfortably get to the next swap station, then still top off from a plug overnight to get back the full range.
And, I think a reasonable swapping plan reduces the pressure to tuck in a super-big battery and all the potential dead weight it represents. Heck, even better would be for a car to have the ability to run on fewer "bricks" than it's maximum capacity for daily use. Better handling and efficiency for day-to-day, but the ability to stuff in extra capacity when necessary. Or, if you design the bricks and connections right, take a bit of room on the bottom of the wagon's floor for the extra range set of bricks.
dpeilow
12-16-2008, 05:07 PM
Also, the onus should be on the supplier in this deal to ensure you never get a battery below a decent minimum range. That would be known at the time you take out the contract. So you could avoid the scenario of having a dying battery around year 5 in the car's life altogether. It will be interesting to see what the subscription charge is, though.
malcolm
12-17-2008, 07:21 AM
My expectation was they would stick with just Israel and Denmark as proof of concept before approaching other countries.
I agree.
Standardised/modular battery packs was something we discussed a while ago in relation to commonality across Whitestar and Bluestar.
Perhaps GE can get in on the modular pack design?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/22/ge-doubles-down-on-a123-in-for-55-million/
And of course, modular packs can happen with or without swap stations.
I do wonder if some future problem will lead to Tesla requiring all/any swapping to be carried out by Tesla-trained-and-certified third parties.
Does this point toward a form of battery dealerships?
Michael
12-23-2008, 06:24 AM
We don't need battery swapping or rapid recharging stations in the near term! I believe that BEV vehicles will get a great start just focusing on individuals that can afford them, have low daily commuting requirements, and can recharge at home.
Once BEV vehicles become more prevalent, then it would seem to be more appropriate to begin establishing the long term infrastructure. Personally I think the inventory requirements and variability, and equipment repair needs for swapping stations are a significant problem that will push the swap cost much higher than just following a rapid charging station path.
James
12-23-2008, 07:08 AM
We don't need battery swapping or rapid recharging stations in the near term! I believe that BEV vehicles will get a great start just focusing on individuals that can afford them, have low daily commuting requirements, and can recharge at home.
Once BEV vehicles become more prevalent, then it would seem to be more appropriate to begin establishing the long term infrastructure. Personally I think the inventory requirements and variability, and equipment repair needs for swapping stations are a significant problem that will push the swap cost much higher than just following a rapid charging station path.
Having some early electric cars out there, with early adopters, will help to get people to realize that 200 miles of range is more than enough.
I don't think that battery swapping locations would be used that much.
I think people will be surprised just far 200 miles of EV range actually covers. Because of gasoline and quick refills, we never really monitor our daily miles driven.
I have been monitoring my miles closely for the past 3 months with my Hymotion Prius (PHEV). I reset my trip B odometer every morning with a full 5 kwh lithium battery in the back of my Prius. Typically I get about 30 miles of electric boost for my Prius with a full battery. For most days, that is enough. Luckily with the Hymotion Prius the gas engine takes away the concern for running out of battery juice. But I still prefer to always have Hymotion energy boosting the system for my 99.9+ mpg average (http://peakoilgarage.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/hymotion-0032.jpg).
So when a Tesla Roadster or Model S is able to get 200 miles from a full battery (or even 150 miles) and I start each day with a standard full battery from home, that is just easy to get through the day with zero concerns about a refill. Even a heavy day of driving won't use 150 miles for 95% (or more) of the people.
For people who drive more, then a PHEV like a GM Volt or Hymotion Prius would be appropriate.
In reality, I get about 60-80 miles per day of Hymotion energy because I can plug-in at work. So a full discharge in the morning and recharge (5 1/2 hours at work) provides plenty of range that I never enter standard Prius mode.
Rheazombi
12-24-2008, 12:06 PM
I think all of this is good. I agree that there are some concerns and kinks to work out, and personally I would never pay for a subscription like that, but I like the idea that after 10+ years of waiting, all this stuff is coming together, and I can see that people are trying to make EVs appealing to the masses.
As long as these Better Places can be used by someone without a subscription, perhaps for a higher fee, I would love them. I will continue to use city-provided chargers/my garage/portable charger when need be, but love the idea of being able to pull into a strategically placed PBP on a 200 mile+ journey.
dpeilow
01-15-2009, 02:17 PM
Better Place goes Canadian with Ontario electric car partnership - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/15/better-place-goes-canadian-with-ontario-electric-car-partnership/)
The electric car deal-making juggernaut that is Better Place is staking its claim on a new territory. BP representatives are in Ontario this morning and, along with Ontario Premier McGuinty, announced a new partnership to advance the cause of EVs - what they're calling a Car 2.0 model - in the Great White North.
I read this and for a split second thought
http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/bp-logo.jpg
:rolleyes:
Battery swap video:
YouTube - Project Better Place (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9bc4vNccL0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9bc4vNccL0
Bradleybang
02-02-2009, 09:46 PM
that video confirms what has been in the recess of my thoughts for the electric future.
Swap and or charge the battery. Why do we need to own the battery in the car?
As Elon stated in the town hall meeting, when you design a car from sctratch you are not tied to adapting a vehicle whose original desing was to hold a gas tank.
I think you build an electric to swap the battery for intercity travel and charge for intracity travel.
When I buy the car I dont pay for the battery but get charged $8 per day ($2,920 per year and $14,600 over its 5 year life) for its use and I have to charge it. It will only go 75+- miles.
If I need a range of 220 miles then I pay $25 per day ($9,125 annual and $45,625 over its 5 year life).
If I have a 75 mile battery and I need to swap at public station to a fully charged battery
$7 for 75mile charged battery swap
$20 for 220mile charged battery swap
Examples
In my daily commute I would keep 75mile battery and charge it at home. I would only pay $8 a day.
On occasion I drive from Oakaland to San Jose. I could charge at home, drive to San Jose, swap for another 75miler= $7 and drive home.
The swap (refill) time would be less than a gas station.
If I decide to go to tahoe. I go to a swap station and get 220miler = $20 plus now I am paying $25 per day while that battery sits in my car.
just a thought....
domenick
02-07-2009, 04:39 AM
Every time I see the battery swapping video I thnk of all the car washes I see out of order. It's as automatic a thought as when I hear someone say, "Why should I own the battery?" and think, whether you own the battery or not someone will have to pay for it and that someone isn't Shai Agassi.
Seriously, as far as I can tell, the "Better Place" model is about making money for a middle man. It's about leveraging money (including a lot of public money) to pay for charging infrastructure, battery swapping stations, and of course, all those batteries. I think it only makes sense if you want to add an unnessesary layer of cost to the electricfication process. That extra cost will flow from our pockets to those of Agassi and the original backers.
Of course, it's possible I'm missing something.
Mapping a Global Plan for Car Charging Stations - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/business/09electric.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/02/09/business/09electric.span.jpg
dpeilow
03-01-2009, 05:17 AM
Better Place announces 19 "Vision Partners" (aka early buyers) in Israel - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/26/better-place-announces-19-vision-partners-aka-early-buyers-i/)
Glad people are questioning this concept:
Better Place battery swapping plan comes under fire - Autobloggreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/11/better-place-battery-swapping-plan-comes-under-fire/)
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/03/better-place-battery-swap-graphic.jpg
graham
03-11-2009, 08:36 AM
I agree that there are a bunch of problems with battery swapping. Premature standardization on specific types/locations/sizes of batteries at this stage of rapid changes will do more harm than good I think.
Although I think "rapid charging" is mostly vaporware at this point too.
I will happily take advantage of whichever technology becomes reality and is useful to me, but I have hopes that battery capacity will increase to the point of trumping them all. At the present rates we should have 750 mile range EVs in 10-12 years if a new technology does not come along sooner. I wonder if enough EVs will get sold in the next decade with present technology to make Better Place and others viable before they are obsoleted?
Some well reasoned comments (for once!).
VS High powered charge stations...
Building and maintaining the swap stations will be a big chore. How much land will be needed for a warehouse of batteries? (think tire store)
If every car has a battery and every station has 200 batteries on the shelf and there are 2000(0) battery swap stations in the US that makes for a very happy battery maker (And a strain on Lith supplies?).
The limitation of one battery shape is the biggest problem. At this point they can't even standardize the plugs.
All this, and the swap stations will probably offer high powered charges as well.
IF PBP is a closed loop then it might work.
James
03-11-2009, 08:48 AM
I question whether people will be battery swapping much at all. In my experience with my EVs, I cannot imagine needing it anywhere in my regular daily driving.
If electric cars just have 100 miles of range, and the driver starts each day with a full battery from his garage, how many times per year will you need a battery swap? Twice?
If there just a regular 220 volt 40 amp charging station in parking lots or parking garages, that would double the daily range of most people. They would leave work with a full battery also.
I think most of these electric cars could top off their batteries with a simple 110 volt 20 amp outlet. 8-9 hours at work would likely provide another 30-40 miles of range to most midsize electric cars.
The perceived need for "battery swap" is based on the outdated concept that we refuel once per week with gasoline about every 300 miles. So we are trained to think that refueling requires stopping somewhere to get fuel within 10 minutes.
With an electric vehicle, you are starting each day with a full tank of electricity. So the odds of getting below 25% to 50% are really quite low on any given day.
Right, that's why I think it's way too early to be trying to build either fast chargers or battery swap stations.
Let the early adopters get their BEVs and PHEVs (for which home charging eliminates the chicken and egg problem, and gas stations eliminate the range problem).
Build parking meter style charging stations (both 120 and 240 V), scaling roll out with the number of EVs out there. When building new parking structures, pay the incremental cost of supplying power near the parking spots so that charging stations can be easily added as needed.
Implement the >100 kW charging and the battery swaps within competitive racing where their use is more appropriate and the engineering cycles are faster. Let that refined technology filter to the masses when/if it makes sense.
I spoke to the people behind Charge Point and the resellers in New York; it IS chicken and egg; and they’re only looking at 120-240V charging today and for the foreseeable future.
Getting critical mass is the challenge; the Parking garages don’t see the financial return soon enough, the idea of an NY tenant choosing them over another garage because they have charging isn’t there yet.
The best bet for streets of charging stations on every lamp post lays with the local townships who have available cash for green projects and a desire to shape traffic by offering free charge stations with parking in town or at rail feeder stations outside of town… one cleaver feature of the ChargePoint system has is the ability to pre-book a charging point in town at a certain time so, you drive in, park up and go to see a show.
If you want to help the charging idea get going, the best advice I’ve received is:
1. Badger your local township
2. Get on the ChargePoint.net website and get a charge card… whether you have a car, bike or nothing electric at all; show the investors there may be a market!
I wrote up my notes at PT (http://planettesla.com/blogs/news/archive/2009/01/18/charge-it.aspx)
As for battery swap… I’m not sure I’m ready to share my $30k battery with anyone yet… mine will be looked after… will the exchange one be?
I spoke to the people behind Charge Point and the resellers in New York; it IS chicken and egg; and they’re only looking at 120-240V charging today and for the foreseeable future.
I don't disagree with you. I didn't elaborate since I figure I've said the same thing a few times before. Clearly, home charging doesn't immediately make EVs a viable option for those of which home charging is unavailable.
Given the cost of EVs, the early adopters will likely be those with home garages. Those buyers do not need to wait for public charging stations for their cars to be useful, thus no "chicken and egg" problem as I prefer to define it. They will, however, create a demand for public charging since that expands the functionality of their vehicles. As more public charging becomes available, those who don't live in houses will be more able to accommodate driving an EV, etc...
At any rate, my point for this thread is that battery swaps are a solution in search of a problem. And that problem will be solved in the near future with REEVs. And the battery swap solution creates its own problems. And it's expensive. And likely to become quickly obsolete, else force EV development to stagnate in order to amortize their cost. And...
Actually, I suspect we agree. I need to re-phrase the Chicken and egg comment; the ChargePoint people are talking to garage owners who say that they won't install ChargePoints until there are enough tenants asking for them; of course the tenants aren't asking because they're assuming that they're out of luck and can't have a bev because they don't have anywhere to charge it. It'll take a few garages to take a leap of faith to trigger the ensuing arms race that'll eventually see garages fighting to win business by having the best and cheapest charging options. I doubt many home charge owners will demand on-street or garage charging; with a 200 mile range I can't think of an example where I'd need to re-charge away from home.
But, back to the swappable debate: todays news from MIT may (hopefully) put the question to bed; the talk is of modified Li-ion cells that can support better ion flow and charge in seconds… with enough available power of course.
If I can charge my 200-mile range car in a couple of minutes using electricity; a commodity freely available at many locations, isn't that it, done, finished, pack up; no more hydrogen debate?
Same story:
» Lithium-Ion batteries get supercharged Dvorak Uncensored: General interest observations and true web-log. (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2009/03/12/lithium-ion-batteries-get-supercharged/)
AFP: Battery breakthrough promises phone, car revolution (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5irTIYH7D3rtf50YhkIDYlm_lpVcw)
Superfast-charging batteries? Whoa there, MIT • Register Hardware (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/03/12/fast_charge_battery_bubble_stab/)
stopcrazypp
03-19-2009, 08:07 PM
mXfqGL3C2uI
Did it say "AC propulsion" on that LCD panel?
Doesn't Nissan make their own EV drivetrain?
stopcrazypp
03-19-2009, 09:45 PM
Did it say "AC propulsion" on that LCD panel?
Doesn't Nissan make their own EV drivetrain?
It does say that, but I think the car it was on was the Renault not the Nissan.
Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated) (http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s.html)
...the Model S’ battery can also be swapped out in just five minutes, making it compatible with Shai Agassi’s Better Place initiative...
Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated) (http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s.html)
Good catch TEG. You would think that would be something worth mentioning yesterday...would you not? If it's true, that's a bump to both platforms.
Elon did say this in his Model S introduction speech. Though it sounded like, Change the battery out faster that changing a gas tank".
Kinda weird but there were a lot of people talking around me...
SByer
03-27-2009, 09:37 AM
Marginalize your compliment
If Tesla isn't going into battery swapping themselves, it's in their best interest to stay battery-swapping-station agnostic, if possible. Foster the competition. Your ICE car can fuel from any brand station, your BEV should be able to swap at any swap station.
Yes, there's the little minor detail of standards and things, but if the Tesla design is reasonable, first mover has a lot of power to set the standard.
The article I quoted said (or implied?) that it would be compatible. Is that wishful thinking from the reporter? I think there is a pattern of "leading" comments being made that allow reporters to jump to conclusions, sometimes wrong. I wish they would try harder to be "matter of fact", not "suggestive".
This article is much less certain:
"Tesla Model S Unveiled: A Great Concept, but Now the Wait Begins" Green Car Advisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/03/tesla-model-s-unveiled-a-great-concept-but-now-the-wait-begins.html)
...The flat battery pack can be designed into the car to be easily and quickly removed and swapped for a fully charged pack when it is depleted.
Musk said this doesn't mean that it will be designed that way, or that Tesla is going to evangelize for a national battery swap standard, but it does mean that if everything came together and battery swapping instead of plug-in recharging became the thing to do, the Tesla S would be able to do it...
So is it an advertised, standardized feature, or just a future wishlist item? Annoying these vague details reported different ways.
Shai Agassi's bold plan for electric cars | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/512)
graham
04-14-2009, 02:07 PM
From Doug's link:
...and in the San Francisco Bay Area not only do you have the highest concentration of Priuses, but you also have the perfect Range Extender: It's called "The Other Car":biggrin:
The Green Issue - Batteries Not Included - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19car-t.html)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/04/19/magazine/19cars.2-500.jpghttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/04/19/magazine/19cars.1-500.jpg
The Green Issue - Batteries Not Included - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19car-t.html)
...But Agassi realized he needed one more breakthrough: some way to rapidly charge a vehicle. No drivers, he knew, will tolerate a two-hour wait to recharge when they’re on a 500-mile haul. Then one day, he and an automotive engineer were chewing over an impractical method for quickly replenishing batteries. The engineer wondered aloud: Wouldn’t the fastest way to charge an electric car be to simply replace the battery?
It was, Agassi says, his “aha” moment. ...I keep reading stories suggesting that this was some sort of new, breakthrough idea.
But I have read about battery swap for years and years before this.
For instance, see this (http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/batteryswap.html) from year 2000.
Admittedly they are running with and pushing an idea that hadn't previously gained traction though.
Will Better Place swap station compatibility be a pre-requisite for an EV to be accepted in the market place in 2020? I gather Tesla is preparing to get on board if they think this works out, but also isn't exactly embracing PBP as "THE answer" just yet.
New York, Boston and Paris all had taxi fleets with swapable batteries in 1911.
Back then, no robots, no hydraulics and big heavy lead batteries.
Nothing is new.
efusco
04-18-2009, 09:28 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19car-t.html
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/04/19/magazine/19cars.3-650.jpg
The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
April 19, 2009
The Green Issue
Batteries Not Included
By CLIVE THOMPSON
Shai Agassi stood in a warehouse on the outskirts of Tel Aviv one afternoon last month and watched his battery-swapping robot go to work. He was conducting a demonstration of the curious machine that is central to his two-year-old clean-energy company, which is called Better Place. Agassi’s grand plan is to kick-start the global adoption of electric cars by minimizing one of the biggest frustrations with the technology: the need for slow and frequent recharges. The robot is the key to his solution. Unlike most electric-car technologies, which generally require you to plug your car into a power source and recharge an onboard battery for hours, the Better Place robot is designed to reach under the chassis of an electric car, pluck its battery out and replace it with a new one, much the same way you’d put new batteries in a child’s toy.
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19car-t.html?pagewanted=all
For-profit seeks to build E-car 'charge spots' (http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=109034)
...
Better Place spokeswoman Julie Mullins said plans for Bay Area stations are currently in the planning and permitting phase, with construction to begin around 2012, she said. Charge spots would be managed directly by the company, with no plans for local franchises.
Drivers would pay for access to the charge spots on a “subscription” based off of miles driven, comparing it to purchasing a cellular phone and an attached payment plan, Mullins said. Battery exchanges would be for trips farther than the estimated maximum range of 100 miles.
Better Place does not manufacture cars itself. The Renault-Nissan Alliance is developing an electric-powered five-door sedan that will be compatible with Better Place’s infrastructure, Mullins said. She added that other existing electric models such as the Chevrolet Volt and the Tesla Roadster would be able to use the charge spots...
James
04-20-2009, 03:23 PM
This entire business model for Project Better Place is going to implode on them.
If the average EV can do 100+ miles of range, and starts each day with a full battery via home charging, then how often do you really think the driver will need to stop at a "PBP" charging station for a fast charge or battery swap?
Since the average American drives 29 miles per day, I predict that the need for all of these PBP stations is extremely low. They will rarely ever be used. As a result, the will likely never make financial sense.
It sounds good to people who have never driven an electric vehicle. Those people are trained to think of this like gas stations. You stop and refuel somewhere once per week.
But that is not the reality of owning an EV. When charging at home each night and starting each day with a full battery and 100+ miles of range, you would almost never need to recharge anywhere except at home. And what are the odds of having a PBP location right where you need it, when you need it? The PBP stations would have to be as common as a gas station is today. Do you understand how expensive all of that land and infrastructure will be?
I am going to call it now. Project Better Place is not going to be successful with this current business model. It doesn't make sense to build thousands of these battery swap facilities when they will so rarely be utilized.
Tdave
04-20-2009, 04:11 PM
Interstate service/food stops. That's the only place I'd need a quick charge -- a few times per year if that. And as range increases with technology advances, that need fades.
stopcrazypp
04-20-2009, 06:52 PM
I am going to call it now. Project Better Place is not going to be successful with this current business model. It doesn't make sense to build thousands of these battery swap facilities when they will so rarely be utilized.
I think their business model is a little more complicated than that. Essentially they want to be like a cell phone company, they charge for the miles. They subsidize the car & get whatever slow charge, fast charge, battery swap infrastructure ready; in return, they charge you a fee for a tiered amount of miles much like cell phone companies charge for minutes. That means even for the charge point at home, you don't pay for the electricity, they do. Not too sure how that works, but probably even the charge point at home is owned by them.
I'm not sure if it's a viable business model since they'll need to stock up with batteries for those swap stations and that won't be cheap, but the appeal to the customer is they can hide the battery cost in the subscription fee. From previous talks Agassi doesn't anticipate having to build too many swap stations, he figure most people won't need them too often. Instead he's planning to build charge points every place where people leave their cars the most: in parking spaces at home, businesses, work.
Kevin Harney
04-20-2009, 06:58 PM
What is the benefit of me installing one of them at home ?!?!?!?!!? I have plugs already .....
stopcrazypp
04-20-2009, 07:20 PM
What is the benefit of me installing one of them at home ?!?!?!?!!? I have plugs already .....
The benefit is your electric car is now the same price as an equivalent gas car, or lower, maybe even free if you sign up for the plan with the most miles.
And another thing is under their plan, you are paying for miles, which means if you charge with your own electricity, all you are doing is paying extra.
Not too sure on the home charging part though, they might be able to work out how much electricity you used yourself and reimburse you.
Kevin Harney
04-20-2009, 08:20 PM
Yeah but what is the point ... I don't get it. Are they offering me a lower rate than I am paying the Electric Co? Why would I pay for the service at home? I guess I am just confused. I only pay for the miles at home so what is the difference? And If I guestimate with them too high then I am paying to much unless they are going to do the free roll over minutes thing .... :confused: :confused: :confused:
graham
04-21-2009, 06:04 AM
This entire business model for Project Better Place is going to implode on them.
If the average EV can do 100+ miles of range, and starts each day with a full battery via home charging, then how often do you really think the driver will need to stop at a "PBP" charging station for a fast charge or battery swap?
Todays EVs / PHEVs have steep requirements for ownership:
1) Own your own house with a garage
2) Have a second car for occasional long trips
3) Be able to afford an expensive vehicle.
If you can do these 3 things, Better Place makes no sense. However, if you live in an apartment, can only afford 1 inexpensive car they make more sense.
Overall I agree with James that they will likely not survive. Not to mention that I think their business model will try to enforce early battery standardization which I think is a mistake at this point. But their existence might open up EVs to a bunch of folks who could not consider the idea before.
But their existence might open up EVs to a bunch of folks who could not consider the idea before.
An important point. Especially if they get hundreds of thousands of cars and 10s of thousands of chargers out there.
The tiny group of passionate EV owners that exist now keep the cars and chargers alive, I can imagine even if the company goes under there could be a movement.
Aftermarket companies, repair shops, NOS manufacturers, etc., will all be setting up business in the towns that PBP are now populating. If they die it will happen veeeerrrryyyy slowly.
Kevin Harney
04-21-2009, 08:11 AM
If they die it will happen veeeerrrryyyy slowly.
They meaning PBP or EV's ?
Todays EVs / PHEVs have steep requirements for ownership:
1) Own your own house with a garage
2) Have a second car for occasional long trips
3) Be able to afford an expensive vehicle.
You don't absolutely have to have a garage...
Overall I agree with James that they will likely not survive.
I have doubts, but I am not so ready to call it. With government support (both national and local) they have leverage not available to other companies.
They meaning PBP or EV's ?
PBP.
EVs will live forever -at least until the asteroid hits. :tongue:
Kevin Harney
04-21-2009, 08:53 AM
I see EV's are here to stay and I see PBP as DOA - at least in the US.
graham
04-21-2009, 09:40 AM
Todays EVs / PHEVs have steep requirements for ownership:
1) Own your own house with a garage
2) Have a second car for occasional long trips
3) Be able to afford an expensive vehicle.
You don't absolutely have to have a garage...
Certainly none of these are absolutes. People have been buying expensive cars they can't afford for years. :smile: Many folks advocate renting an occasional long-distance car or taking public transport instead of having a second car. And you can work around needing to have a garage. But in general I think most will not consider todays EVs without those 3.
PBP does try to address each of these (perceived?) EV limitations to open up the market to a wider range of folks.
Better Place answers questions about home charging, Obama's interest (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/23/better-place-answers-questions-about-home-charging-obamas-inte/)
...ABG: You say that a non-Better Place customer can get power from a Better Place charging station using "an easily-installed converter"? What is this converter? How much will it cost? Will Better Place not be using the J1772 interface standard in their charging stations
BP: Better Place is working with the broader community to develop industry standards that can be applied to all EVs around the world. We are building an open-standards based network, so any EV driver to connect with our charge spot. ...
...ABG: I'd also like a little more clarification on what a Better Place customer can do with their car. If he or she wants to charge their Better Place/Renault/Nissan vehicle at home, either because they have solar panels, say, or want to take advantage of cheaper nighttime rates, will this be possible?
BP: Charge spots will be installed at homes, places of work and most retail locations. Better Place will provide safety and energy management services for all charge spots. ...
Kevin Harney
04-22-2009, 08:48 AM
Sounds to me like they need to just have credit card swiping. I see no need for a "membership". What do I get for that ?
You need one account tied to the vehicle. You pay for miles used on a plan.
Why even have a card at all? Shouldn't the vehicle be able to identify itself through the charge spot and have it automatically deduct from the mileage credit on your account? It would be good if you could just pre-register a credit card with your Better Place account so you never have to swipe a card.
James
04-25-2009, 06:45 AM
The more I read about Project Better Place, the less interested I become. This sounds like a disaster in the making. They want to put a charging station in my home? Get real. The only "charging station" anyone needs is a NEMA 14-50 outlet that costs about $200 to have installed.
If Project Better Place adds anything to mix, they are just becoming a middle man between the electric utility and myself.
There is no other way to describe it.
There is really no need for a home charger any more powerful than 50 amps. That will recharge any EV overnight.
Cobos
04-25-2009, 11:47 AM
The problem I see with PBP is their long-term success. Initially the batteries are expensive, will die prematurely if you mistreat them, and a huge economical benefit means you can drive away with a brand new EV for maybe $5000 as long as you sign up for an expensive plan. In many ways the same way if you lease a car.
Just look at the cell phone plans. The interesting thing about those at least here in Norway though is they are going away. The phones are getting so cheap and you change them so often that more and more people are buying them without the expensive plans. And that is where I see the problem for PBP they are offering an alternative financing as well as an insurance vs battery mishaps. They are adding value to the chain NOW, but if EVs really take off their usefullnes will wane. So I welcome them right now, I just don't want to invest in them :)
Cobos
The more I read about Project Better Place, the less interested I become. This sounds like a disaster in the making. They want to put a charging station in my home? Get real. The only "charging station" anyone needs is a NEMA 14-15 outlet that costs about $200 to have installed.
If Project Better Place adds anything to mix, they are just becoming a middle man between the electric utility and myself.
There is no other way to describe it.
There is really no need for a home charger any more powerful than 50 amps. That will recharge any EV overnight.
You got it. I never really liked PBP from the beginning and I haven't seen anything that would change my opinion.
Wiring Wars: The Race to Charge the World's EVs | BNET Auto Blog | BNET (http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10001091/wiring-wars-the-race-to-charge-the-worlds-evs/)
ECOtality’s CEO, Jonathan Read, is a critic of Better Place’s plan to offer battery swapping (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/11/better-place-battery-swapping-plan-comes-under-fire/). “First, it’s highly unlikely you will get a unitary [ie, one size fits all] battery among all manufacturers,” he said. “Batteries are proprietary and unique selling points for the companies—it was like herding cats just to get them all to agree to a single charging receptacle. Also, people are very personal about their vehicles and want to know that the battery they purchased and cared for is still in their car.
Exactly what I've been saying all along.
MP3 podcast from the Gavin Newson show... yes, that's right. The Gavin Newsom show.
Gavin Newsom 05/02/09 (http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/SANFRANCISCO-CA/KKGN-AM/Gavin%20Newsom%2005-02-09.mp3)
From Green 960 in San Francisco - the Gavin Newsom show.
Friday, May 01, 2009 11:58 PM
Mayor Newsom talks about the future of the car industry with Shai Agassi, CEO of Better Place. Shai believes the future is electric. His company Better Place has a revolutionary idea to treat transportation as a service, much like people do today with mobile phones.
stopcrazypp
05-13-2009, 09:27 AM
Video: Better Place's automated electric vehicle battery switch station is faster than Melvin Dummar (http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/13/video-better-places-automated-electric-vehicle-battery-switch/)
Project Better Place finally unveils their battery swapping station. It costs less than a hydrogen fueling station ($500k for this prototype, though if you include the costs of stocking up with batteries and then the charging equipment, it'll probably cost more) and it does swap the car in less than 2 minutes.
KKA4GhVn0a4
Simple Motion Control (Robotics) will always be cheaper than a chemical transformation/gas storage station.
Watching that video makes the whole idea of battery swap stations seem so accessible. It's like big arcade or carnival machine to tinker with.
You could have a room of spare parts that would let station owners do modular swap repairs. Something highly unlikely with a high pressure hydrogen station.
US firm unveils new battery tech for electric cars - Business | DailyAdvance.com (http://www.dailyadvance.com/business/us-firm-unveils-new-battery-tech-for-electric-cars-602633.html)
dpeilow
05-13-2009, 11:05 AM
Nice to see this video - it will be going into my armoury against the anti-EV and the hydrogen brigade
What occurs to me in that video is the how specialized the shape of the battery pack is, and how little ground clearance the car has.
efusco
05-13-2009, 01:13 PM
Impressive...wonder how they manage to align everything so precicely.
Impressive...wonder how they manage to align everything so precicely.
There are a variety of well established methods for precision alignment. The ones I'm familiar with are in optics and semiconductor manufacturing, but they certainly exist in many other places. It also helps to design things to be passively self aligning within certain margins.
I'd like to see how they would deal with mud and road grime.
Very cool machinery, but still unnecessary. The costs and space taken up to keep extra charged batteries on hand, the lack of standardized packs, and the fact that a swap station will still need high voltage lines to recharge all those packs, coupled with ever increasing pack range, will probably kill this technology before it even gets off the ground. Oh yeah, and most people will recharge at home for a lot less money than a swap. How profitable would a gas station be if most drivers left home every day with a full tank of gas, which cost a lot less than the gas at a station?
graham
05-13-2009, 05:15 PM
The costs and space taken up to keep extra charged batteries on hand, the lack of standardized packs, and the fact that a swap station will still need high voltage lines to recharge all those packs, coupled with ever increasing pack range, will probably kill this technology before it even gets off the ground. Oh yeah, and most people will recharge at home for a lot less money than a swap.
Agree with your first point, but not necessarily with the second. Yes, PBP doesn't make much sense with a car like the Roadster, as most people who can afford a Roadster will have a home with a garage and charge at home.
However, I think they are going for the other end of the market. Sell someone a cheap car without the battery, and set up a monthly fee for the battery and swapping. If this allows them to have a $10-$19k car, the people who buy this will often be apartment renters who cannot charge at home. They are willing to battery swap because it comes with the service plan they signed onto when they bought the car.
No idea if consumers will buy into this idea or not, but that is the market they are going after.
BBHighway
05-13-2009, 05:30 PM
Very cool. That battery pack didn't seem to have any liquid coolant hoses connected to it, which might complicate things a bit. Still, I'm sure that obstacle can be overcome.
Time will tell if this catches on or fizzles out. I'm not willing to make a prediction either way.
James
05-13-2009, 06:01 PM
How profitable would a gas station be if most drivers left home every day with a full tank of gas, which cost a lot less than the gas at a station?
That is exactly the point. If I start every day with a full battery from my garage 110 volt or 220 volt outlet, I would need a battery swap about twice per year, if that. With a Roadster range of 200 miles, I doubt I would ever need a battery swap as long as I occassionaly have access to a fast charger between some cities (440 volt, 160 amp).
These swap stations would be so rarely used that I doubt it will ever justify the cost of the land, building, machines, inventory, etc.
Also, gas stations don't make money on the gas they sell.
They make money on the soda and junk that people buy inside.
I think Project Better Place needs to invent a new reason to exist. I appreciate that they have sparked a discussion on what is possible and they are getting politicians to think about EVs. But their business is a disaster financially.
However, I think they are going for the other end of the market. Sell someone a cheap car without the battery, and set up a monthly fee for the battery and swapping. If this allows them to have a $10-$19k car, the people who buy this will often be apartment renters who cannot charge at home. They are willing to battery swap because it comes with the service plan they signed onto when they bought the car.
The problem I see is that the original battery pack still has to be paid for, as do all the extra packs, and the charging station itself. Plus there will be extra expense in the vehicle just to make a pack swapable as opposed to hard mounted. This all has to be figured in to the cost of pack swapping, which will have to make each pack swap much more expensive than a home recharge, which takes away one of the main advantages of an EV.
Frankly EV's just won't be practical for people who can't home charge for quite a while until more charging infrastructure is built. Apartments and businesses that offer charging will give themselves an advantage over their non wired competition as EV's continue to catch on.
efusco
05-13-2009, 07:23 PM
The point was made to me by someone else that manufacturers would all have to either make their batteries identical (or just use one of a few variations), or the PBP stations would have to stock multiples of all different sizes/shapes/brands of battery. Can you imagine the confusion if there are 20 or 30 different battery styles, you pull in expecting your battery to be replaced, but then they're "out" of your particular style/brand? What do you do then. Can you imagine the dissatisfaction?!
I guess each car manufacturer could have their own swap stations, maybe at dealership service departments in cities, but it starts getting complicated pretty fast.
..manufacturers would all have to either make their batteries identical (or just use one of a few variations), or the PBP stations would have to stock multiples of all different sizes/shapes/brands of battery.
And PBP keeps referencing the Cel phone model. Every phone brand uses a different battery, voltage and socket/plug. Even within a single brand.
Oh, and The "J" charging plug that was just approved as a standard has been in the works for 10 years.
rsquared99
05-13-2009, 08:35 PM
Isn't PBP trying to do the same thing the car/oil companies are trying to do? Keep control of the "fuel" component of the equation. Car/oil companies are supporting things like hydrogen or ethanol because they can still keep complex engine systems that take a lot of maintenance and they can keep the driver tied to a fuel station that he has little chance of being able to self produce. PBP is treating the battery like fuel, and therefore tieing themselves into the equation as indespensible for the user, even going so far as to provide charging stations in the home, which is certainly not needed except in very limited cercumstances. Pardon me if I'm just slow, but that brain cell just fired and I hate to waste those at my age.
Yes, I think that about sums it up.
efusco
05-13-2009, 08:48 PM
And PBP keeps referencing the Cel phone model. Every phone brand uses a different battery, voltage and socket/plug. Even within a single brand.
That seems to reinforce the point IMO. It's bad enough trying to find the right battery for a cell phone and you can fit several dozen brands/sizes on a single wall.
Imagine an EV size battery now...how the hell you gonna store all those? And maintain them? And keep the ones in stock that you really need?
BBHighway
05-14-2009, 12:03 AM
Memorial Day is coming up. Hundreds of thousands of people will be heading to the beach, about 150 miles away from my hometown.
So, imagine that a significant portion of those folks had electric cars with swappable batteries. All winter long there has been virtually no demand at all for battery swaps at the beach, and suddenly there are 20,000 cars wanting batteries Friday evening, and another 20,000 on Sunday looking for a swap for the drive home.
So, what do you do? Store a bunch of very expensive battery packs at the beach all winter? That's a bad business decision, spending lots of capital and not getting any return for a long time, while paying warehousing costs.
No, you truck in battery packs for the weekend on diesel powered trucks, largely negating the advantage of using electric cars in the first place. You also truck in the average number of packs that are expected. If it's a raining weekend, you're going to have a lot of extra packs ready for folks that don't show up. If it's a nice weekend, then you're going to run out of packs and have some very unhappy customers.
Much like hydrogen, the more you look at PBP the worse it appears.
James
05-14-2009, 07:20 AM
The posts the past few days, pointing out the problems with PBP swapping, are really good. A lot of really solid points exploring the real issues with this model.
From my experience with two EVs so far, the only viable solution is to make recharging stations common in parking lots and parking garages. Perhaps a parking meter / recharge station along streets.
220 volts / 40 amp recharging stations would just about handle anything. A one hour recharge would get most cars 20-25 miles of range so it would be perfect if that type of infrastructure was common in the shopping mall parking lots or grocery store parking lots.
"Shop at Best Buy and your recharge is FREE !!!"
If you were at work, your car would have 8-9 hours of recharge time during the day.
All winter long there has been virtually no demand at all for battery swaps at the beach, and suddenly there are 20,000 cars wanting batteries Friday evening, and another 20,000 on Sunday looking for a swap for the drive home.
So, what do you do?...
Reallocating inventory is not unusual. Seasonal distribution is quite common in many sectors. (think of the isles in your local store that are dedicated to holidays). That off-season stuff sits in warehouse all across the the country. And weather is something that is a factor on the ski slopes and the beach. Stuff happens.
,... you truck in battery packs for the weekend on diesel powered trucks, largely negating the advantage of using electric cars in the first place...
A diesel truck hauling 40 batteries is not that bad given the option of an equivalent tanker hauling gasoline to fill gasoline burning cars..
Also, a company that is in this business might well have an electric truck. See our TMC thread on the many available.
PBP is treating the battery like fuel,
So that brings it down to class. Consumers with money to own a home and a garage for charging don't need the PBP low budget car.
Less affluent need to buy the budget car and pay the PBP price for battery swap charging.
But it's really not that bad:
*Electric Fuel is 5 times cheaper than petrochemical fuel. It would take a lot of changes for electricity to get even close to gasoline prices -assuming gasoline pricing stays the same!
*cars will still be chargable and unlike sourcing gasoline, owners have the option and ability to get clever about charging at work, crazy long extension cords, plugging into street lamps, etc.
The reason PBP works is it covers everything at once. Solve the chicken/egg problem by getting an automaker to agree to make the car, get an isolated area like Hawaii and get them to agree to saturate the area with chargers. Everyone shakes hands and builds it.
* the PBP plan includes thousands and thousands of chagres in a region. The whole battery swap idea is there for two reasons.
1 for allaying "range anxiety" fears in a new customer market
2 legitimate long trips.
Charge stations are a marketing necessary evil. If it was not there it would be harder to sell the concept. Once they are in, they will surely fade from disuse.
James
05-14-2009, 09:29 AM
I tried to summarize all of the posts here (that I agree with) on my blog.
Project Better Place is going to be a financial train wreck « Peak Oil Garage (http://peakoilgarage.com/2009/05/14/project-better-place-is-going-to-be-a-financial-train-wreck/)
Charge stations are a marketing necessary evil. If it was not there it would be harder to sell the concept. Once they are in, they will surely fade from disuse.
Anyone know the ratio? How many battery swap stations per charge stations? I'm thinking something like 50 battery swap stations per 1000 chargers.
Put most of them at the edges of town along highways and a few in very visible locations in the center of the cities. After all they are mostly for show until people realize hey don't need them.
BBHighway
05-14-2009, 10:10 AM
Reallocating inventory is not unusual. Seasonal distribution is quite common in many sectors. (think of the isles in your local store that are dedicated to holidays). That off-season stuff sits in warehouse all across the the country. And weather is something that is a factor on the ski slopes and the beach. Stuff happens.
...
A diesel truck hauling 40 batteries is not that bad given the option of an equivalent tanker hauling gasoline to fill gasoline burning cars..
Also, a company that is in this business might well have an electric truck. See our TMC thread on the many available.
I'm not saying that these issues can't be worked out, just that everything is not just as simple as a car pulling into a garage and a robot taking care of everything. There are logistics that need to be to be dealt with. They aren't impossible, but they shouldn't just be ignored either.
Still, shipping electrons through a wire as needed sure sounds like an improvement over shipping gasoline in a tanker or shipping batteries on a truck.
James
05-22-2009, 02:29 PM
AutoBlogGreen just wrote about our Project Better Place discussions here on TeslaMotorsClub.com
Thinking through the Better Place strategy: is it seriously flawed? (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/22/thinking-through-the-better-place-strategy-is-it-seriously-flaw/)
They referenced my summary on my website at PeakOilGarage.com
Project Better Place is going to be a financial train wreck « Peak Oil Garage (http://peakoilgarage.com/2009/05/14/project-better-place-is-going-to-be-a-financial-train-wreck/)
I had a few people in the discussion debating it.
But I also wrote that it was a summary of my thoughts and those of others from this thread on TMC.com.
*Electric Fuel is 5 times cheaper than petrochemical fuel. It would take a lot of changes for electricity to get even close to gasoline prices -assuming gasoline pricing stays the same! Constructing extra battery packs, shipping them back and forth to swap stations, building complex machinery to swap them, adding complexity to vehicles to make packs swappable, and adding a profit margin to PBP, all go a along way to increasing the cost of electric Fuel.
The reason PBP works is it covers everything at once. Solve the chicken/egg problem by getting an automaker to agree to make the car, get an isolated area like Hawaii and get them to agree to saturate the area with chargers. Everyone shakes hands and builds it.
Why would you ever need a swapping infrastructure, or even a fast charging infrastructure, in a small place like Hawaii? The longest dimension of the largest island is 93 miles. The smaller places such as Hawaii and Israel where this is being pushed are the last places you'd need swapping, it makes no sense at all.
James
05-22-2009, 07:04 PM
Why would you ever need a swapping infrastructure, or even a fast charging infrastructure, in a small place like Hawaii? The longest dimension of the largest island is 93 miles. The smaller places such as Hawaii and Israel where this is being pushed are the last places you'd need swapping, it makes no sense at all.
That is an excellent point. Current battery range can already make battery swapping pointless in Israel, Denmark and Hawaii. Imagine how useless those swap stations will be in five years when battery range has doubled.
Right now I am getting new LiFePO4 batteries to test from ThunderSky.
They are claiming their new 190 Ah batteries are the same physical dimensions as the older 160 Ah batteries.
That is almost a 19% improvement in energy density in just one quick jump.
Cobos
05-23-2009, 03:49 AM
I still think PBP will find customers for their plan and will at least in certain limited places succeed. If they will financially survive and pay back their investors is anybodies guess. If you ask me I'd say in the long run not likely.
The swap stations and the quick recharge stations isn't really the important bit. The obiquitous slow chargers in EVERY parking space IS. The swap stations will be a PR measure just like the Corvette is a PR measure for GM and the Roadster in many ways is for Tesla. It's a way to make some of their R&D pay.
It also seems many people here are to economically sensible to see the draw of the PBP model. They use the cellphone model as their comparison and we still sell lots of cellphones here in Norway for $.25. If you do total the costs they are still essentially $200 phones for a $1500 price. Same thing goes for buying big things on credit. I'm pretty sure around 95% of all current Roadster buyers didn't have to get a carloan to pay for the car, that's not how it works for most people. So they are used to paying a higher price for a car, and they may be living in an apartment where using the PBP slowcharger outside on the curb sounds like a good idea. They get a new car, help the enviroment and end up paying about the same price as a similar petrol car.
Remember the Renault EV car in question is similar to the Megane if I recall correctly. A sensible small but decent compact car. For a 2-4 person family that can't afford a fancy car. That's a very different customer group than either Fisker or Tesla is going for. Looking at the price of the Roadster I'd bet V1 of the Bluestar will still be too expensive to hit that very price sensitive segment. A low entry price like PBP can offer might be all the incentive they need.
So I'm not saying this is the best solution for people, but for the EV "cause" widespread EV adoption has to be good. And even people that are good with their money (or somehow got their hand on a lot) does economically stupid things like buying a Ferrari :)
Cobos
James
05-23-2009, 04:37 AM
Project Better Place (PBP) sort of reminds me of @Home back during the early days of the cable model for the internet.
Think of @Home as the equivalent of Project Better Place.
Initially @Home knew all of the details on how to make the internet work over cable networks. But after a year or two, the cable companies realized that they actually did not need @Home to provide internet cable modem service to their customers. So they squeezed out @Home and took over the cable model business themselves.
Project Better Place is likely going to face the same future. The electric utilities are the real "power" behind the system. After everyone leans how an EV actually functions, they will realize that PBP doesn't really bring anything to the table. There is no value added.
EVs will get 100+ miles of range, recharge stations will become common and provided by many different companies with a common NEMA 14-50 outlet (or some other standard) and the electric utilities will power the system.
I don't really see a long term role for a middleman like PBP in the future. There is really no need after people learn how an EV actually works on a daily basis.
1) You drive it like a normal car.
2) You plug it in at home each night.
3) rinse, repeat
Project Better Place says they will own the batteries. If owning the batteries is the key to success and it is profitable, eventually the car manufacturers will figure out how to take that piece away from PBP. They will lease the batteries to EV owners.
Cobos
05-23-2009, 04:49 AM
Well I know that, you, James knows that, but fortunately the PBP investors don't know that yet. :)
If they will be willing to invest a few hundred million $ in getting people used to using EVs who am I to stop them?
And to go back to the cellphone example. When the $.25 cellphones first arrived they were the catalyst for cellphones moving from something a businessman had to an everyday item. (Curiously Norway now has about 9mill cell phone subscriptions and only about 5 mill people.) The heavily discounted phones are a lot less normal today than they were then, but you still see them. And that's my prediction for PBP, they will grow big, and then they will shrink to a niche player, but their huge investment in the actual chargers means they will be able to lease or rent those to other companies. Like utilities.
The main point being regardless of what happens to PBP the endresult is a lot more EVs and a lot more public chargers.
Cobos
The thing that most concerns me about PBP is that manufacturers may be fooled into thinking they need to spend extra time and money making a swappable battery pack which will drive the cost of EV's up, not down. I doubt that will actually happen, but even Tesla is talking about swappable packs. It's an unnecessary engineering challenge, and limits battery pack innovation once you've locked into a certain physical specification. I'm not concerned with PBP investors losing their money, that's on them, I'm concerned about PBP influencing EV design and construction in negative ways.
Their charge station idea is less problematic in my view, but as has been pointed out they will simply be a middle man adding little value and will probably be pushed out in the long run. A smart business or apartment owner will install their own charging stations, a one time expense with some routine maintenance thrown in, and generate business and profits for themselves by having them.
WarpedOne
05-23-2009, 06:21 AM
My sole fear is PBP will influence EV makers into making on-board chargers non-compatible with home electric installation to force people to charge from their charging stations i.e. that they will try to be the Oil Company of 21st century except from really pumping out any oil.
I see another danger in that governments might like this model because then they will be able to add additional fees to "automotive" electricity like they do now with automotive energents.
Diesel here in our country costs twice as much as ordinary oil for heating houses. They are the same thing except that oil has some added chemical that colors it red so government can fine me big money if I put it into my diesel car. That Tesla's 480V DC outboard charger might be a very dangerous idea from this point of view.
The only really new thing that EVs bring to the table is energy provider independence. PBP is capable of taking it away again.
T... but as has been pointed out they will simply be a middle man adding little value and will probably be pushed out in the long run. A smart business or apartment owner will install their own charging stations...
Some great observations here suggesting that PBP will be pushed out of the equation as power companies realize they can go direct to consumer to supply driver's needs. The need for charging will also be filled by and existing land owners and entrepreneurs branding charging lots like a combination gasoline station and paid parking lot -maybe every spot has a charger and you pay when you exit. That way the owner makes extra $$ when and ICE car parks there! Branded Coulomb-type pay charge kiosks may also be offered by independent companies licensing spots from municipalities and prime land owners. "I always use those WhizBang chargers because I like their funny commercials and are .02 cents less per mile than parking in the charge lot closer to work".
We will see the same with 3rd party battery suppliers as well. Especially when cars are retired form the PBP "fleet" Even a companies like Tesla or Zenn might make batteries for competitor's cars.
graham
05-23-2009, 07:42 AM
While I am skeptical of PBP, I still do not believe it is as simple as James seems to. Although his @Home comparison does ring true to me and reminds me of DVRs.
When I bought a DVR in the late '90s, I could buy the high quality, high feature set ReplayTV, or the far less capable and "less expensive" Tivo. The ReplayTV you paid for outright at $600, the Tivo was $300 but there was a something like a $12 monthly fee. The Tivo picture quality/compression was worse, you didn't have a network jack built in so that you could not back up your hard drive every night etc and ultimately you would pay at least as much if not more for the Tivo. Overwhelmingly, people who bought DVRs bought Tivo.
Then a decade later when the masses finally figured out what a DVR is, the cable companies realized that a DVR is not too difficult to make (user interface be damned). Most people who get them these days would rather get them for "free" and pay their cable company $10/month for the privilege. Ultimately paying more for a product that is not nearly as easy or nice to use, but starting out, it is less expensive.
I am on the sideline saying "But my DVR is better!... and... and... I paid it off in 1997... Network backup!..."
People would rather buy an expensive item for cheap today and pay a monthly fee forever. It is a reasonable business plan, but as James mentions with his @Home comparison probably doomed to the utilities in the end.
But what if that more expensive Replay got cheaper and better every year? Because that's what's happening with lithium batteries and it's happening quickly. So some people bought the better Replay at first, just as some people are now paying somewhat of a premium for lithium, but as time goes on the lithium is getting cheaper and better. It's a different model than the Replay/Tivo situation.
I look at it more as a Flat panel TV model. The first ones were very expensive and very few bought them, but over time they got cheaper and better and everyone can get them, and it happened pretty quickly.
stopcrazypp
05-23-2009, 05:47 PM
While I am skeptical of PBP, I still do not believe it is as simple as James seems to. Although his @Home comparison does ring true to me and reminds me of DVRs.
The DVR situation is kind of different. There's basically no option for non-subscription DVRs ever since Tivo (I was looking for a DVR for a friend and the only other options were to get a DVD recorder or a TV tuner card, there are basically no nonsubscription DVRs avaliable). I don't expect PBP to lead to this kind of situation in the battery market, as long as there are still many automakers planning not to bother with the battery swapping at least initially.
EVs will get 100+ miles of range, recharge stations will become common and provided by many different companies with a common NEMA 14-50 outlet (or some other standard) and the electric utilities will power the system.
I mostly agree with James' take on this, but I don't think NEMA 14-50 will be embraced as a standard for EV charging. PBP could well get into a 'situation' with contention for J1772 (in USA) and e-Mobility / RWE charge connections in Europe.
Yes, they have to convince the cities of what to subsidize/promote, as well as the auto makers of what to install in their vehicles. Perhaps something will emerge that will allow non PBP vehicles to get a PBP account and charge their vehicle at a PBP charge spot with some sort of adapter? What about a PBP vehicle that would like to charge at a non PBP public charger? Out of luck?
There is/was a very active TiVo modding community. People "hot rodded" their TiVos with bigger hard drives, and even add on ethernet interfaces to make them more replay TV like. Also there was the concept of one time fee for lifetime subscription, so it isn't always a montly fee based system. (Some hackers figured out how to avoid the subscription system altogether).
I abandoned all my old modded TiVo's and now just use a series 3 that has built in ethernet, lets me transfer shows to/from PCs at home, and even lets me schedule shows over the internet when I am away from home.
The series 3 has a supported eSATA port so I have an extra terrabyte drive hanging off the back.
I wonder what happens if someone buys a PBP car and mods it so it can recharge at non PBP chargers...? (!)
Cobos
05-24-2009, 12:54 AM
Letting everyone that doesn't have a PBP car use their charger network is an obvious extra source of revenue. You either prepay some amount of kW or you take out a subscription which gives you access.
The other way around though might not be such a problem. PBP is selling you x miles per year. They'll periodically read off your odometer I suppose and charge you based on that. That includes power from PBP chargepoints. If you still insist on using other power sources and still pay for each mile PBP should be happy to let you do that...
Cobos
So it will always be based on per-mile usage? So there would be no difference in cost if you charged at home versus at a public charger? No difference in cost based on time of day you charged? No difference if you used a PBP official charger or used some adapter to use someone else's?
If it is per mile then efficiency doesn't matter either, right? The PBP car that does a 75MPH commute would get cheaper power than the other one that does a 40MPH commute. It wouldn't matter how many wH/mile you used.
No money incentive to avoid "lead foot" driving.
Cobos
05-24-2009, 02:04 AM
I don't know of course, but if this was my network I would make sure the chargepoints offered Smart grid capability. That way customers can choose to set the car in "get-me-all-the-power-I-can-find"-mode or "only-charge-if-its-cheap"-mode. PBP will make sure to charge you for the first option, and will sell the second option as loadbalancing back to the utilities.
I suppose they could count kW put into the battery instead of miles and let you eat out of your "free miles" regardless of where you charge. kW though is less intuitive for the average user than miles...
Cobos
dpeilow
05-24-2009, 06:30 AM
The recent Frost and Sullivan report (http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/market-insight-top.pag?Src=RSS&docid=167114253) has this to say.
Although there has been some support in terms of building infrastructure, it has not been on a large scale. To make the EV dream a reality, governments need to ensure the availability of at least 4 charging points per EV in the 1st year, thereafter reducing to 2.5 charging points per EV by the 5th year. A fast charging infrastructure is also required, , possibly including battery swapping stations at a ratio of 1 per 100 EVs sold during the 1st year, followed by 1 per 1000 EVs post the 5th year of sales. This density of charging station networks will be able to meet the majority of EV owners' charging needs, especially when battery technology is improved such that EVs can travel further on a single charge.
Better Place to place chargers at local malls - Haaretz - Israel News (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1089774.html)
Better Places Breakthrough: Changing a Car Battery in One Minute: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/260660/Better-Places-Breakthrough%3A-Changing-a-Car-Battery-in-One-Minute)
Serge
07-16-2009, 09:10 AM
Green Car Congress: UC Berkeley Study Concludes Battery Switching Model Would Accelerate Mass-Market Adoption of Electric Cars; Baseline Scenario Projects EVs Reaching 64% of New LDV Sales in 2030 (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/07/becker-20090714.html#more)
New Polls Show Strong Consumer Interest in Electric Cars | BNET Auto Blog | BNET (http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10001942/new-poll-shows-strong-consumer-interest-in-electric-cars/)
I keep trying to get my head around how Better Placing charging spots will mesh/coexist with "public" charge spots. The photos of better place stations looked to use a proprietary connector, but perhaps those were just prototypes.
I had been assuming that the charge pedestal would need to restrict what kind of vehicle was plugged in, or at least know what serial number for reporting/billing purposes, but perhaps all the intelligence would be in the car?
Lets say for a moment that Better Place lets their cars plug in anywhere, but they keep track and report miles & kwh from the car and use the new GPS + 3G features to have the vehicle report back all the charging and usage. Then you could get billed for "Better Place Miles used" regardless if using a Better Place charge pedestal or a public one. Some sort of agreement could be in place for Better Place to pay the charge pedestal owner for the power used after the fact. I really don't know what they are planning to do but it seems that it might make sense to have most of the intelligence in the car rather than in the charge pedestal.
The old way of thinking is based on a gas pump where the pump has to get paid ahead of time for all the gas is dispenses. No one necessarily tracks where a particular car got its gas or how many miles it drove. The whole model is different if you track usage at the car rather than at the "refuel" location. GPS & mobile internet make this idea possible.
(Thinking out loud)
Serge
08-13-2009, 06:58 AM
I keep trying to get my head around how Better Placing charging spots will mesh/coexist with "public" charge spots. The photos of better place stations looked to use a proprietary connector, but perhaps those were just prototypes.
The GPS/3G tracking scenario seems kind of complicated and raises privacy issues for me. One of the simpler (for PBP) scenarios is making subscriber responsible for covering any non-PBP charging. While the purist in me balks at the idea of "double paying" for your electricity, the realist would just accept such scenario as "cost of doing business." Isn't the often quoted cost of full Tesla charge up at home around 5 bucks (obviously varies by location)? If so, I'd rather help out PBP with an occasional home charge up rather than burden PBB (Project Big alas Better Brother ;) with the task of keeping track of my driving.
You don't need GPS for distance traveled, just an odometer reading.
You don't need GPS for distance traveled, just an odometer reading.
I was thinking the GPS would be used to know where you charged though.
So if there was an agreement to pay back the charge pedestal owner for some of the power you used they would know where you got it.
Of course there could be some sort of handshake between vehicle and charge pedestal with serial number exchange, but I was pointing out that with all the intelligence in the car (including GPS locating) they wouldn't necessarily need to have that level of intelligence and communication in the charge pedestal.
Shai Agassi, Israel's Homegrown Electric Car Pioneer: On the Road to Oil Independence - Knowledge@Wharton (http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2315)
If so, I'd rather help out PBP with an occasional home charge up rather than burden PBB (Project Big alas Better Brother ;) with the task of keeping track of my driving.
I'd rather not help out a third party business that tries to lock me into their system. Since most charging will be done at home at reduced rates why buy into their overpriced charging system for the occasional charge?
Serge
08-14-2009, 07:39 AM
I'd rather not help out a third party business that tries to lock me into their system. Since most charging will be done at home at reduced rates why buy into their overpriced charging system for the occasional charge?
I think that PBP targets a different kind of customer; someone who doesn't have charge access at the place of residence or is frequently on the road and/or travels long distances. Unless they can offer a value proposition competitive with owning/fueling an ICV or ER-EV the market for their service does seem to be limited (at least in most U.S. markets)
With that said, I see PBP's mission as an overall benevolent one, as they can help speed up electrification of transport by developing a niche market that is not well served by a current generation of EVs. In this market they will compete directly with hydrogen, so I see it as a good thing :smile:
Shai Agassi, Israel's Homegrown Electric Car Pioneer: On the Road to Oil Independence - Knowledge@Wharton (http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2315)
Thanks TEG.
Really good read all the way. I sent it out to a few friends who don't know much about PBP.
Project Better Place Plans Massive Electric Car Rollout in 2011
Project Better Place Plans Massive Electric Car Rollout in 2011 : Gas 2.0 (http://gas2.org/2009/08/20/project-better-place-plans-massive-electric-car-rollout-in-2011/)
dpeilow
08-23-2009, 07:00 AM
Lots of interesting info in that article. However $38k for a Renault sedan without the battery (I'm presuming) is a bit of a shocker. This gives a good hint towards the price of the LEAF. I guess there is no or low tax on these cars, but maybe our Danish members can say how this compares to an ICE Megane.
It will also be interesting to see how having 50 swap stations affects opinions at the Climate Conference.
I know I keep saying this but it just seems so ridiculous
By developing an infrastructure of “swap stations (http://www.betterplace.com/solution/charging/),” drivers can swap discharged batteries in their electric cars in little more than five minutes, and be on their way. Pilot projects are already underway across the globe, including Denmark (http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/denmark/), Israel (http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/israel/), Japan (http://gas2.org/2009/05/13/better-place-unveils-first-solar-powered-electric-vehicle-battery-switching-station/), Hawaii (http://gas2.org/2008/12/03/hawaii-endorses-better-place-plan-for-electric-cars/), California (http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/california), and Australia (http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/10/23/australia-to-launch-one-of-worlds-biggest-electric-car-recharging-systems/).Denmark, Israel, and Hawaii are all so small I can't imagine ever needing a battery swap station. They are "solving" a problem that doesn't exist! A 200 mile battery pack and one or two fast charge stations takes care of everything in these places.
I know I keep saying this but it just seems so ridiculous
Denmark, Israel, and Hawaii are all so small I can't imagine ever needing a battery swap station. They are "solving" a problem that doesn't exist! ...
So here is how I see it going.
PBP (and ostensibly Tesla) make a big deal about battery swap. Put on a show by making up prototype Battery Swap Stations, go through the arduous engineering task of making the batteries come out easier with quick releases than would be needed for standard maintenance and then maybe even put a few Swap Stations a high visibility locations and importantly, include some plug in spots and and high powered chargers on sites.
Then you do three things;
Don't build many Battery Swap stations but make it sound like you have many more planned.
Offer cheap or free charging at those stations and other places.
Wait it out as consumers realize that swapping is really not necessary.
Take the "loss".
PS
Even better if this scheme is government funded.
Serge
08-24-2009, 01:08 PM
I know I keep saying this but it just seems so ridiculous
Denmark, Israel, and Hawaii are all so small I can't imagine ever needing a battery swap station. They are "solving" a problem that doesn't exist! A 200 mile battery pack and one or two fast charge stations takes care of everything in these places.
The problem they are trying to solve, I believe, is more of economic and less of technological nature. As in, Tesla Motors has shown that a high-end EV competitive with high-end gassers can be successfully built (and sold). However, they (or anybody else) have yet to build a 200 mile range, fast charge capable, cost-competitive mass-market EV. PBP may succeed if, just like Tesla, they manage to be the first to market. In this EV race the horses are out the gates and the winner is anybody's guess.
However, they (or anybody else) have yet to build a 200 mile range, fast charge capable, cost-competitive mass-market EV. PBP may succeed if, just like Tesla, they manage to be the first to market.
If that is their goal, and I'm not convinced it is, how does wasting time and money on unneeded swapping stations and packs help them achieve that goal? It doesn't. The whole swapping concept will only make EV's more
expensive, not less.
Here's an application where battery swapping can actually make sense. The heavy usage will also also accelerate working out the kinks of battery swapping and EVs in general.
Better Place to trial battery-swapping taxis in Tokyo - Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/26/better-place-to-trial-battery-swapping-taxis-in-tokyo/)
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/08/better-place-nihon-kotsu.jpg
Big city taxis frequently have to wait in a queue at the airport when they go to drop someone off for a flight, and then the driver wants to wait for a pick-up to go back into town. A battery swap station at the international airport would be a good place to do something like that for electric taxis. (Now if they can do it so you don't lose your place in the taxi queue...)
What's the daily average distance traveled by Tokyo taxis? At city driving speeds a 150 mile pack would not be hard to do, especially if you didn't have the added expense of making it swappable and building extra packs to have on had for swapping. With a 1 hour lunch break and access to a reasonably fast charging station you could make the pack even smaller, still no swap necessary.
No new ideas:
NASA Tech Briefs Create the Future Design Contest (http://www.createthefuturecontest.com/pages/view/entriesdetail.html?entryID=2616)
dpeilow
09-02-2009, 02:27 PM
Given that this thread is a year older than the date on that page, I think NASA should be careful whose ideas they pinch.
dpeilow
09-15-2009, 06:25 AM
Better Place Debuts EV Services Platform at Frankfurt Motor Show (http://it.tmcnet.com/news/2009/09/15/4369904.htm)
Serge
09-16-2009, 07:42 AM
Better Place Debuts EV Services Platform at Frankfurt Motor Show (http://it.tmcnet.com/news/2009/09/15/4369904.htm)
Better Place R&D is working closely with Continental of Germany and Intel and Microsoft R&D, developing the most modern computing platform for inside the car. Better Place is developing its AutOS in-car platform with Continental to produce in volume an automotive-grade head unit, which incorporates Microsoft Windows Embedded and is powered by the Intel Atom processor
Somehow that little tidbit of information coupled with "QuickDrop" name is producing some unhealthy associations in my brain.
Project Better Place Buys 100k Renaults | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/project-better-place-buys-100k-renaults/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIc9a5fG58Y
That's a lot of cars.
Serge
09-17-2009, 08:26 AM
Project Better Place Buys 100k Renaults | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/project-better-place-buys-100k-renaults/)
That's a lot of cars.
It's even more money. Taking into account a very optimistic 20,000 GBP they advertise as a retail price we get GBP 2 Billion! Then, there is the unknown cost of batteries. Somebody has to finance all this...
Also, the numbers keep jumping (up and down) orders of magnitude. PBP website links to the following Aug 18th Guardian article. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/18/renault-electric-car)
The electric car industry received a boost yesterday after a leading developer of low-emission vehicles said it would produce of tens of thousands vehicles a year from 2011.
• This article was amended on Tuesday 18 August 2009. We originally said incorrectly that Better Place expects to produce 160,000 cars and that the vehicles would use 250 watt batteries. This has been corrected.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU7I90AooOE
My arteries are clogging from the cheese factor :rolleyes: "Haven't been to the swap station in a while". Good thing the cost of EV's were increased substantially by building unneeded swap stations, swappable packs, and the extra packs that have to be kept on hand just in case they might be needed.
Better place video uses 2010 Prius interior...
http://www.hybridcars.com/files/2010-prius-dash-610.jpg
Shai was on The Colbert Report last night.
Hulu - The Colbert Report: Shai Agassi (http://www.hulu.com/watch/97346/the-colbert-report-shai-agassi)
Arnold Panz
09-23-2009, 02:19 PM
Hulu - The Colbert Report: Shai Agassi (http://www.hulu.com/watch/97346/the-colbert-report-shai-agassi)
Is it just me, or did that interview go rather poorly? I feel like Agassi didn't do a good job of explaining what Better Place is and what they're going to do. He needs to get a PR person help him simplify his "elevator speech" a bit so he can do interviews like this one and give a very clear, concise message about what Better Place is and how/why it will work. Colbert gave him a chance, but he was not very articulate in his description of the company. He focused on the cellphone analogy, yet how often do we change our the battery on our cellphones?
Maybe my expectations were too high -- I've heard so many laudatory things about Agassi over the years that I expected him to blow me away.
Is it just me, or did that interview go rather poorly?
I was gonna say that with Colbert the interviewee barely gets a word in edgewise and often has what he says misinterpreted for comedic effect. But then I watched the interview. And you're right. Colbert really did give him a chance and Agassi didn't sell it very well. He seemed tired. Also, it might be an ESL thing, but he should have said "less expensive" instead of "cheaper".
Of course the website mention alone was worth a lot. I don't particularly care for the Better Place model, but at least it helps get the word out about EVs. I'd prefer, however, that the public not be trained to think we need to wait for a battery swap infrastructure.
Much like Better Place that was mostly confusing and missed the point. His explanations were as weak as the concept. He did nothing to make EV's seem more "friendly". Colbert was great though :biggrin:
Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States
Hulu is committed to making its content available worldwide. To do so, we must work through a number of legal and business issues, including obtaining international streaming rights. Know that we are working to make this happen and will continue to do so. Given the international background of the Hulu team, we have both a professional and personal interest in bringing Hulu to a global audience.
:rolleyes:
stopcrazypp
09-23-2009, 10:44 PM
:rolleyes:
You can try this one:
Shai Agassi | DATE | ColbertNation.com (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/249718/september-22-2009/shai-agassi)
You can try this one:
Shai Agassi | DATE | ColbertNation.com (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/249718/september-22-2009/shai-agassi)
Thanks. This works. :)
Yeah, many are unhappy with his delivery. I fell asleep after telling my wife how brilliant a speaker he is.
James
09-24-2009, 11:12 AM
The more I learn about Project Better Place, the more it reminds me of the fuel cell. They make it sound wonderful, but the reality is much less realistic.
They need to invent a serious reason to exist. The battery swap station if a financial black hole that makes no sense. Charging stations are simple and likely to be standardized. There is nothing special there to hang your hat on. A charging station can be installed by any electrician and will likely be owned/operated by the local electric utility.
Similar to how @Home was squeezed out of the cable modem market by the cable companies.
Project Better Place doesn't really have much of a future as a middleman between the utility and the electricity consumer.
I also do not see PBP as remaining a middleman between the auto manufacturers and their customers.
Can someone explain to me what PBP brings to the table that is unique other than those silly battery swap stations that nobody really needs?
The straightforward Tesla model of "build a product and sell it" is easy to understand (and tout given the EV1 lease recall fiasco), but Better Place is trying to jump ahead with a way to offer EVs to the masses with low initial costs to the customer. I think there is ultimately room and need for both approaches, so I hope the different players (e.g., Tesla & Better Place) find ways to work together and complement each other, not confuse customers and fight over who gets to put their particular charger in a particular subsidized spot.
Further synergies (such as Model S using a Better Place pack swap station) are more questionable. I think the focus should be on unified charging standards, and complementary marketing.
As long as a battery pack capable of providing 200miles+ of range costs > $15K there is going to be some value in the better place model of leasing the pack and monitoring the miles.
Tdave
09-24-2009, 11:24 AM
James, c'mon, where's your vision, man?
/sarcasm
James
09-24-2009, 11:45 AM
James, c'mon, where's your vision, man?
/sarcasm
I just watched that video on the homepage of Better Place (http://www.betterplace.com)
I saw nothing there that seemed at all unique to PBP.
The iPhone app, the car, the charging stations, and the swap stations.
Only the battery swap station seemed to be the item that set PBP apart and the justification for that piece is a stretch. The financial costs of all of those stations and all of those batteries on standby are just enormous. And the fact that they would rarely be used just makes the fnancial numbers even more of a stretch. I have previously ranted on that issue.
The other three pieces (smart phone, car, charging station) are all going to be provided by other entities (phone company, car manufacturer, utility). I don't see a revenue stream there for PBP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU7I90AooOE
Can someone explain to me what PBP brings to the table that is unique other than those silly battery swap stations that nobody really needs?
I won't go very far to defend their model as I too can relate to the eventual "needless middleman" role, but they are "leading the charge" in some ways:
#1: Working closely with regional governments to make a concerted plan to move forward. Getting money commitments to back it up. (The time seems ripe for such things, but they do seem very able to be convincing.)
#2: Working with technology partners to develop large scale smart charging infrastructure. (Ultimately it would be great if there was some sort of open-standard for this sort of thing, but for now I bet Better Place plans to try to make the "best of breed" proprietary system).
#3: A true global solution mindset. (Evaluating and selecting the best standards from all over the world).
Where Tesla excels in technology, better place excels in strategy, partnering, and marketing.
Ultimately Better Place could end up being a powerhouse "think tank" that car companies, governments, battery makers, and other suppliers turn to in an effort to get a well thought out solution package.
Look at EPRI (http://my.epri.com/) (down the street from Better Place). Why do the power companies need an independent R&D company like that? Well the different power companies end up competing with each other and having an organization in-between can help them offer and share technology ideas.
James
09-24-2009, 11:57 AM
so I hope the different players (e.g., Tesla & Better Place) find ways to work together and complement each other, not confuse customers and fight over who gets to put their particular charger in a particular subsidized spot.
Further synergies (such as Model S using a Better Place pack swap station) are more questionable. I think the focus should be on unified charging standards, and complementary marketing.
As long as a battery pack capable of providing 200miles+ of range costs > $15K there is going to be some value in the better place model of leasing the pack and monitoring the miles.
Trust me on this. Tesla Motors does not want to work with anyone on charging issues. :-) They want to own the entire process and provide it to other car manufacturers. Tesla Motors has this nasty habit of trashing the efforts of others at every opportunity, even some of their biggest supporters.
Every auto manufacturer is like this to some extent. They all want to sell a proprietary charging solution to their customers so that they are locked into a system that requires the customers to return.
For example, if you already own a Tesla Motors HPC that cost you $3,000 and that HPC will work to recharge another car (Model S) would you be more likely to buy a BMW electric vehicle that requires a different BMW version of their HPC? Or would you be more likely to purchase a Model S that can also use your HPC on multiple cars?
I realize that they will all have the J-1772 connector standard in the future. But from what I am seeing, they are all trying to differentiate their products so that customers get locked into coming back to the same company. Perhaps with a software package that provides special features that are manufacturer specific.
This is their business model. Instead of forcing you to buy a replacement air filter or oil filter that is overpriced because it only works with their model, they now have to figure out new ways to lock their customers into their auto parts.
efusco
09-24-2009, 12:07 PM
Sounds like an opportunity for a cottage industry that creates adapter packages. You've got a Tesla, they sell you a package of multiple adapters (BMW to Tesla, Toyota to Tesla, Fisker to Tesla, generic to Tesla, etc.).
Yes, I would like to be able to plug my Ford RangerEV into all those new public Tesla charge spots popping up around California. But who has an adapter that can take a Tesla charger and adapt it to Avcon? (There already is a cottage industry going the other way - letting Teslas charge at existing Avcons).
There is some expectation that all these charge spots will offer J1772-2009 someday soon and everyone will just need J1772-2009 to whatever adapters (e.g.: to Tesla, to Avcon, ...)
At the moment nearly all the "public" chargers are free to use, but there are bunches of companies (including Better Place) wanting to be ready to get a cut of the money that comes in once critical mass hits and the charge spots switch over to pay to use.
As battery pack capacity grows, EV usage grows, and electricity prices go up, the free power experiment is likely to end. Some probably look at this like the Arpanet -> Internet transition. Subsidized research-grant funded give-aways end and upstart commercial entities move in.
James
09-24-2009, 02:08 PM
Sounds like an opportunity for a cottage industry that creates adapter packages. You've got a Tesla, they sell you a package of multiple adapters (BMW to Tesla, Toyota to Tesla, Fisker to Tesla, generic to Tesla, etc.).
We already have it designed and on a prototype machine.
J-1772 connector and every single adatper possible for any receptacle in Europe or North America. A complete universal adapter mobile recharging cable for any EV that uses J-1772.
As long as the EV has an onboard charger, which most of them seem to be doing, it will work with any of the cars.
James
09-24-2009, 02:11 PM
As battery pack capacity grows, EV usage grows, and electricity prices go up, the free power experiment is likely to end. Some probably look at this like the Arpanet -> Internet transition. Subsidized research-grant funded give-aways end and upstart commercial entities move in.
I actually think it will go the other way. The electricity cost of so minor that stores will offer it for free to get your business. Spend $50 at Best Buy and your 1 hour recharge is free. Eat at this restaurant and your recharge for 90 minutes is free, or heavily subsidized.
It will be like free internet access at coffee shops. They just offer it free so that you buy your $4 latte at that location.