Charging the Roadster - EU Style [Archive] - Tesla Motors Club

dpeilow

08-16-2009, 06:18 AM

You cant use 400V to charge the roadster, nor cant you use 3 phase. (US)Roadsters input range is 108V to 120V and 208V to 240V, 1 phase.

In continental middle europe (DACH), you are not allowed to draw 63A on one phase. There is a regulation which prevents this. Its because of the "Schieflast" (dont know the english word) on a 3-phase system when drawing out that much power on one phase; although it might work.

We europeans stuck officially with 230V/32A one phase, which will never allow us to reach the charging numbers officially advertised in all Tesla papers, including the european ones.

As TEG says, it translates as "unbalanced load" (thanks Google :wink:)

You are allowed to pull 63A on one phase in the UK, but it's not something that would normally happen for hours at a time, which may be an issue. As I mentioned in another thread, utilities in the UK try to balance customers across the three phases at the street level. However they do install three phase supplies for loads that pull a lot of power for long times (such as overnight storage heaters).

Additionally, I asked a couple of colleagues from France about their system and was told that apart from one with a three phase swimming pool pump, they typically have single phase at home, with breakers rated from 15-25kVA for apartments to houses respectively.

So we are not yet at the point where we can talk about "this is how we do it in Europe".

For my information Tesla will not use the blue 7pin Mennekes plug at the moment; RWE is providing an adapter for the roadster. The plug on the car will remain the same as on the US cars.

This is definitely something that Tesla should be looking at.

Also, TEG pointed out those two red connectors in this photo:

http://img36.yfrog.com/img36/4531/ae4k.jpg

They are relatively common in industrial locations, so a solid state 3 phase to single phase converter box or HPC would be a big benefit. Even the smaller of the two sockets would easily allow an overnight charge. The question is, can one be made light and small enough? (*Goes off to freshen up on big diodes, IGBTs and transformer theory.)

sooner or later the Euro-spec Roadster should have a 3-phase charger, a "must have" for the EU-spec Model S.

100% agreed. If necessary, I'd sacrifice space in the "front trunk" of the Model S to have the ability to hook up to any size of the three phase connectors shown above (say, up to the 125A version (http://www.interpower.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=icl/findpart.p?w_part=84154351)). If the car makes it as simple as possible for locations to install a "fast charger" (e.g. an off the shelf connector), then maybe this will encourage a faster roll-out.

So to keep this kind of on topic, I may well be the case that the charging systems between US and EU cars diverge to make best use of the available infrastructure.

Alpine Driver

08-16-2009, 08:54 AM

dpeilow,

I do agree 100%. What I dislike is the way Tesla handled the issue.
There was NO support of the manufacturer in this case.
As my cars expected delivery was long said for July, I went to the grid company somewhere in May/June. The guy there was very nice, and we had nice talks. He liked the car; but when I told him casually that the cars charging is single power, he nearly fell from his chair. "Imagine there are 3 in your street, and by accident they are on the same phase - when then have more than 100amp unbalaced loads!".
But, for everything there is a procedure. It is not impossible to operate a device on the grid with more than the officially allowed amount of single phase power. I got a form to be filled out by the manufacturer of the device (a lot of technical issues) and signed by the manufacturer, and when they get it back they can judge the device, and give me an exemption to allow me draw 32A single phase. (they denied there is even an official exemption for more then 32A by going this way).
So I mailed the form to Tesla and waited. Nothing happened. When I called them, they told me they do not understand the form, they will not fill it out, and why I do make everything so complicated? I just would have to ask an electric company to install a 32A 3-phase power outlet in my garage. Thats an easy task. And yes, the roadster will draw its power single phase on this outlet, but noone will notice.
Well, in theoretical, Tesla is right. This would have been the silent, easy way. (unfortunately I have talked honestly to the grid provider already).
But is this the support you can expect from a premium manufacturer? No filling out a form, no talking to the grid provider for help, just suggesting a "grey" workaround.
This is what I dislike.
I then talked to the grid provider, and told them that the manufacturer will not fill out the form. They were very supportive. They said they will judge it without the form. They knew they cant prevent it. When you are the first in town with an electric car, even in a large area, it would give a lot of negative PR when the do not allow you to charge it in time. So they calculated it based on the physical location of my garage, and I got a verbally exeption to draw 32A single phase if the harmonic overwaves of the device are max 24%.
(they added: "try it, should work". and when you have the car, please visit us. How many kW? 185? wow. We just have a 10 year old electric car here, forget it. But we are very interested in seeing it. So just try it. If we can help further, just call).
So in the meantime, I have a device installed in my garage, which looks similar to the two RWE devices, even bigger. (I hope I can post photos soon), Its 3-phase, connected with a cable 5x 16mm2, and has a 63A power-Twist industrial connector. Breaker at the moment is 3-phase 50A. So 32A no problem, scalable up to 63A (3-phase) if necessary/possible/allowed sometimes.

Conclusio:
Goal acchieved. Power installation done. But -NO- support from Tesla on this issue.
To bring this post back to topic a little bit: one difference is support. In the EU, the do not officially allow you to talk to more than one guy, your rep. This one guy is responsible for several countries, all sales, deliveries (theoretical), all media work, fair presentations, demo rides, etc. This cant work. And when you then have questions and need help, you might get lost. Thats a difference.
And on a technical way:
HPC is an option for US customers only. It dissapeared in the EU option list around may 09; at the moment HPC is not a valid option for EU customers.

dpeilow

08-16-2009, 01:14 PM

I'm surprised you need permission to draw only 32A. Even electric showers can require over 9kW (http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/detail.htm?productNumber=Advance%20ATL%20(9.8kW)&section=Electric%20showers&resultPageKey=316145834-0&category=) here, so they would break that threshold. How are showers wired over there?

It's clear that there is a need for two classes of three phase to single phase device in this case:

1) A home/garage converter for which size and weight isn't an issue.

2) A portable solution (as mentioned above).

Version 1 exists now. A 15kw (63A output) device can be found here: ATS Three phase in single phase out constant frequency constant voltage transformer (http://www.aelgroup.co.uk/htm/ats.htm)

It looks expensive.

Now, for 2, shrink that into a portable unit...

On the other hand, the PEM is doing the opposite of this and at even higher powers. Therefore, I'm certain the best answer is to modify it to rectify 3 phase straight to DC and cut out the single phase "middleman".

raymond

08-16-2009, 11:06 PM

raymond

08-16-2009, 11:16 PM

You cant use 400V to charge the roadster, nor cant you use 3 phase. (US)Roadsters input range is 108V to 120V and 208V to 240V, 1 phase.

But a 400V -> 230V converter (transformer) is an easily built low-tech solution giving you 1.73 [sqrt(3)] more power (or it reduces the single-phase power requirements by a factor of 1.73 which in the Netherlands means it's cheaper). It doesn't remove the Schieflast (I like that word) alltogether but it does mitigate the problem.

dpeilow

08-16-2009, 11:36 PM

Man, that sounds scary! Has nobody ever been electrocuted? The Dutch answer is "gas". We use gas to heat everything.

Electric showers... :confused:

Apparently so (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4679129.stm), although I'd never heard of it until you asked.

On the other hand - allowing an invisible, explosive substance into your house...

It occurred to me a three phase UPS with single phase output could work as a garage converter. Perhaps looking out for one whose batteries are old and is being replaced could be a cheap solution. You could probably remove the batteries all together.

AndrewBissell

08-17-2009, 01:02 AM

I want to be able to road-trip around Europe in my Roadster with as low recharge times as possible. Hence this topic is of intense interest to me, and I have been thinking these issues through and researching them for some time.

I am deeply appreciative of the various insights about local regulations and practice in different countries.

I have been looking for a portable 3-to-1 phase device, and knew that it had to be electronic (to paraphrase Wikipedia's entry for "single phase": "no system of transformers can convert multiphase power to single phase". (of course you can strip out a single phase by simple wiring, but then you get all the schliefast unbalanced load problems)

I deeply appreciate dpeilow finding the ATS device. I will investigate it further.

I wonder if raymond can elaborate further on his point as I don't understand it, and sqrt(3) more power (and less schliefast) sounds good!

Finally, I am trying to find out more about what the RWE-sponsored "Mennekes" standard actually supports on single phase. My reading is that it gives up to 63A 400V 3-phase or up to 63A 230V single phase. If that is correct, maybe the utility is expecting to balance loads for single phase vehicles behind the socket. The fact that RWE have bought several euro-spec Teslas suggests that there may be a good solution - would they limit themselves to 32A single phase? What are RWE doing in practice? Please can any german speakers shed more light on this?

Thanks

Andrew

AndrewBissell

08-17-2009, 01:19 AM

I just called the company. The ATS device is no longed available. (apart from being a little large for carrying round in a Roadster!)

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 01:26 AM

Shame.

But this problem is not that hard. Making a dual conversion that goes from three phase to DC and then immediately to single phase is conceptually easy - the circuits for both stages can be found online - and I've found most of the components needed (with sufficient power handling capability) already. I think heat dissipation is going to be the main issue here.

Or you can try the UPS route. I think I know where one might be getting stripped out, so I will ask...

TEG

08-17-2009, 01:32 AM

TEG

08-17-2009, 01:36 AM

...If you had three Roadsters you could charge all 3 at once off of different phases to keep everything in balance... :redface:

Note, "unbalanced" can apparently be literal. Turbine generators at power generating stations can start to wobble (and break) if the phases are not kept in balance. Generally things even themselves out, but if there is a major short on one of the lines it can damage the generator. A single Roadster isn't going to do this, but they do have a general desire to keep everything as balanced as possible.

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 01:58 AM

That would only be the case if the Roadster was directly connected to the generator.

Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power)

The power transmission grid is organized so that each phase carries the same magnitude of current out of the major parts of the transmission system. The currents returning from the customers' premises to the last supply transformer all share the neutral wire, but the three-phase system ensures that the sum of the returning currents is approximately zero. The primary side of that supply transformer commonly uses a delta winding, and no neutral is needed in the high voltage side of the network. Any unbalanced phase loading on the secondary side of the transformer will use the transformer capacity inefficiently, but equal current will be drawn from the phases feeding the primary delta winding, leaving the high voltage network unaffected.

EV_de

08-17-2009, 02:06 AM

The BRUSA Company made some Paperwork (highly recommended) to read:

"Definition and implementation of a global EV charging infrastructure"
PDF-download (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/EV-infrastructure%20project.pdf)

Point 5.3 "considering the 208V system for US public charging stations" show's how to
build a charger for both systems 1 (2) Phase and EU 3 Phase.

more Dokuments here (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/Infrastructure/documents.htm)

---

I send a Mail to RWE "e-mobility@rwe.com" asking about the 63A@1-wire thing ....

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 02:45 AM

3 Phase Basics (http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm)
Figure 15 ***Three-Phase To Single-Phase Connections (http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1011v4/css/h1011v4_135.htm)
CR4 - Thread: Three Phase To Single Phase (http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/6806/Three-Phase-To-Single-Phase)

Thanks. Been around most of those sites since yesterday.

The middle URL describes exactly what we don't want to be doing :biggrin:

The Scott T transformer could be of use, I have also been looking at it, but I think it would be easier on people's backs if we could do this with power electronics.

Alpine Driver

08-17-2009, 02:50 AM

Some time ago, I talked to a very well educated technician about this problem. He told me, that technically, of course there is a solution. One way of having 3-phase converted to single-phase (with balanced loads on the 3-phase end) is power electronics converters. (not directly the same approach as dpeilows ATS device with UPS inside; but have you seen its dimensions? and 288kg? puh!).
But in this case, he sayed that here we are in the part of industrial power electronics, no "playground items", and for 15kVA with european certifications, he expected this in the price-range between 8k EUR and 10k EUR, likely more....

Another solution is a theoretical one. Use a 3-phase motor, and the motor shaft connect to an alternator. There, use only one phase of the alternator. You will have your single phase, and the primary load on the 3-phase motor is balanced. Well, efficiency isnt the thing of that solution. And the lack of sound of EVs you wont experience - because you then will have it in your garage while charging ...

So, solution seems to be as simple to as to live with the unbalaced loads.

One important thing is: power is not power. There is a wide variation of how power can be drawn out of the grid. And this variations have different "Netzrückwirkungen" (grid retroactive effects? grid feedback?).
So with variant A, you might be allowed to draw the amount of x kVA out of the grid. But with variant B, you might not be allowed.

Here is the link of the (in austria at least, in germany and switzerland also what I have understood) responsible regulation, the TOR:
A&B - Strom (http://www.aundb.at/strom/download_recht.htm)
scroll down till the files beginn with "TOR". unfortunately, its hundreds of pdfs in german language.
From what I have understood:
This thing is based on law from the european legislative. Each country then puts this in its national law.
For me, its seems they devide into different devices based on the technics, and on this different technics, a device can draw different power amount out of the grid. But when you are manufacturer of a device and within that limits, nothing can "happen" to you, you can sell this device - you have legal certainty.
This amounts are very low, on one part there were only 1.5kVA, the maximum I found was 4.7kVA.
When you and your device do exeed this, then there is a procedure. Its in "Hauptabschnitt D2, page 146" - the form you have to fill out and submit to your grid provider. Then they will judge it if -the way you are drawing out the power of their grid- will influence their grid; and therefore they will allow you or not.
I do my best to translate some kind of things they are asking here:

Power/max.Power
230V/400V/3x400V/others
alternation of load often yes/no
Stromrichter ("power converter? line-commutated power converter?") yes/no
Energy back to the grid yes/no
Power factor correction yes/no; if yes, which type, kvar
Direktanlauf(direct start?)/Anlaufhilfe(?)/Leistungssteuerung(power control?)
Phase controlled modulator yes/no
Schwingungspaketsteuerung (?) yes/no
Pulssteuerung (? pulse controlled?) yes/no
Drehstromsteller (AC power controller? regulator?) yes/no
Frequenzumrichter (frequency converter / inverter?) yes/no, if yes, from Hz to Hz
Stern-Dreieck-Anlauf (star-delta connection ?) yes/no
Starting under load yes/no
how often starting in which time period
proportion of starting current vs. regular current

Based on this technical data, they may calculate and allow you to use or not use the device, and make additional suggestions. But "device has xy kW / kVA" is not enough for their judging.

Hmm. You see its very complicated. I have my exemption :cool:

But overall, dpeilow is right. The most cheapest and easiest solution is to change the charging electronics. I have talked to the same technician on this issue, and told him about the ACP licence technics using the motor for charging, etc.; but he said nice, but however the car "internally" works, it is not that complicated to design a device to accept 3-phase input at an of course balanced load. (he explained somthing from a few diodes here, some bridge rectifier circuit there; but I am not that kind of technician to understand this ;-), over all minimal costs).
But it would need some time to make an own EU-PEM accepting 3-phase from the grid, and a new connector (5pin at least, when not taking the blue Mennekes one which would be the only useful solution); this would lead in a new Mobile connector, etc.
But time is the only thing Tesla does NOT have when it comes on deliveries of european cars; its a pitty that they have overseen this completely, like other things on the european homologation.

raymond

08-17-2009, 02:53 AM

...If you had three Roadsters you could charge all 3 at once off of different phases to keep everything in balance.

That *is* of course the best solution!

A cheaper solution could be to use a 400V->230V transformer (300 euro for a 10kVA model; I just found a supplier) and then charge from two phases. Someone with more knowledge on this will surely be able to tell how (and if) the 120-degree phase difference translates to sqrt(3) saving.

I'd say 400V/36A = 230V/63A (roughly).

BBHighway

08-17-2009, 02:58 AM

The Dutch answer is "gas". We use gas to heat everything.

That sounds scary! Don't you worry about your house blowing up with all that explosive stuff flowing through!

I guess any high power appliance can be dangerous if it's not engineered properly, regardless of the energy source.

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 03:32 AM

So a crude 3 phase -> DC rectifier looks like this.

http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03267.png

Simple :wink: Tesla - stick one of those in the back please...

That *is* of course the best solution!

A cheaper solution could be to use a 400V->230V transformer (300 euro for a 10kVA model; I just found a supplier) and then charge from two phases. Someone with more knowledge on this will surely be able to tell how (and if) the 120-degree phase difference translates to sqrt(3) saving.

I'd say 400V/36A = 230V/63A (roughly).

Do you have a link to the supplier?

EV_de

08-17-2009, 03:47 AM

Six-Pulse Bridge rectifier - B6

DC Voltage Waveform:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Waveform_fullwave_rectifier3.png/180px-Waveform_fullwave_rectifier3.png

If you run this with only 1 Phase and Nutral the DC Voltage Output will have a bigger ripple (gap between the Bumps)
therefore the average Voltage is lower and of course the Power-Output

raymond

08-17-2009, 04:48 AM

So a crude 3 phase -> DC rectifier looks like this.

But that doesn't make use of all available power, does it? It just spreads the load evenly of the three phases, but only draws a load from each single phase at it's peak voltage.

Using 400V (or better: a proper three-phase AC -> single-phase AC converter) *does* reduce the load on each phase. [I think; please correct me if I'm wrong]

Can anybody confirm that a crude 3 phase AC -> DC rectifier is a bad idea?

I got a very informal EUR 300-EUR 600 quote from Noratel (http://en.noratel.ezpublish.no/content/view/full/2635) for their 10kVA transformer.

If anybody can find the price for a 3-phase AC -> 1-phase AC converter I'd be interested.

Alpine Driver

08-17-2009, 04:57 AM

raymond,
more technically experienced people will hopefully answer your questions in a more detailed way.
But look at the datasheet (wiring diagramm) of your mentioned device:

http://en.noratel.ezpublish.no/content/download/4497/392228/file/2LT-23.pdf

this is a "simple" voltage up/down or even only galvanic isolating device; it has nothing to do with more phases or with load balancing.

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 05:02 AM

But that doesn't make use of all available power, does it? It just spreads the load evenly of the three phases, but only draws a load from each single phase at it's peak voltage.

I think that is sort of the point. As long as each phase is in the positive part of its cycle, it will be contributing to the DC output, hence contributing power. This is where your 1.73 is coming from...

raymond,
more technically experienced people will hopefully answer your questions in a more detailed way.
But look at the datasheet (wiring diagramm) of your mentioned device:

http://en.noratel.ezpublish.no/content/download/4497/392228/file/2LT-23.pdf

this is a "simple" voltage up/down or even only galvanic isolating device; it has nothing to do with more phases or with load balancing.

Which is why you can't do this with a "normal" transformer.

Seems there are dozens of single phase -> three phase products, but not much demand for going the other way...

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 05:13 AM

In the absence of a suitable solution, a UPS with minimal batteries is the next best option. "Double Conversion Online" signifies that it is always going through the rectifier/inverter rather than passing through power straight from the input.

This one would supply 32A safely: Emerson GXT2 10kVA TOWER UPS - Misco.co.uk (http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=339653&CatId=0)

Datasheet (http://www.emerson-ups.co.uk/Products/downloads/datasheets/GXT2_10kVA_Tower_Brochure.pdf)

As you can see, not very portable and not cheap, but in the ballpark of the HPC. It's cheaper than AlpineDriver's contact thought too. This may help out some people for their home charging situations. We'll keep working on the portable one :wink:

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 08:25 AM

OK, there are some devices out there which do what we want (search for frequency converters, power factor correctors, that kind of thing), but the bottom line is that none are smaller or cheaper than that UPS when you are talking about 10+ kVA. I've reached that point where I am going around in circles finding the same products.

So it would appear that if you want to charge from three-phase at home and not annoy your supplier, get an online/double conversion/VFI UPS. At least you can charge for a bit during a power failure :smile:

AndrewBissell

08-17-2009, 10:08 AM

Now, if only the Roadster allowed a trailer to be towed: we could mount such a UPS and a *lot* of battery. Trailable range extender! (not useable while driving of course, but get you out of a jam if you misjudge the range to next charger - and when you encounter say 16A 3-phase (common all over continetal Europe) you can simultaneously recharge the Roadster at 40A and use the remaining capacity to charge the battery.)

we can dream.

raymond

08-17-2009, 11:43 AM

this is a "simple" voltage up/down or even only galvanic isolating device; it has nothing to do with more phases or with load balancing.

Yes and no. It IS a simple voltage transformer, however since the three phases are 120 degrees out of phase, you can load two of the three phases equally giving you 400V instead of 230V. This in turn enables you to draw a current which is 1.73x less than what you would need to draw from a single phase 230V.

It's a partial solution which only loads two phases, but it is highly efficient, affordable, low-tech, unlikely to break, etc. It's 1.73x as good as loading a single phase, and 1.73x as bad as using all three phases.

Are their any prices out their for a proper converter (with or without UPS capabilities)? Any ideas about efficiency?

dpeilow

08-17-2009, 11:58 AM

Thing is, the Roadster doesn't do 400V. So your idea could get expensive.

Furthermore, the transformer in your link is *only* single phase.

I looked at 'converter' prices, but there was no advantage over a UPS. Must be economies of scale.

Efficiency of a double conversion device is high 90s.

dpeilow

08-18-2009, 03:16 AM

OK, I found another supplier of converters:

http://www.effekta.co.uk/Downloads/EF20%20SFC%20Pamphlet.pdf

Power for power, these are slightly larger than the ATS one that Andrew found was obsolete. But, they go up to 32kVA - more than enough to run the Tesla HPC.

I called the company (the number has changed to +44 1582 882332, by the way) and got the following list prices:

8 kVA - £4466
16kVA - £5888

They said that they can normally reduce those by 10%.

They also said that a Scott T transformer would do what we are looking for, for a lot less money, however the efficiency isn't as high.

Alpine Driver

08-18-2009, 04:56 AM

dpeilow,

thanks for this find.
Now we have the confirmation, that it IS (would be) possible to charge the roadster, even in continental DACH europe, with 70A (in the 16kVA case: 69,5A).
The negative issue is the price; I have converted it and xe gave me 6.868 EUR for that value. Lets reduce it by about 10% to 6k EUR - but as for industrial electronics, you surely have spoken about prices excl. VAT - so here in austria we have 20%, which means we are at 7.200 Euros. And then there is transportation costs.... its not mentioned how "heavy" the device is, but from the dimensions and the looks ...

Another problem is heat dissipation. Datasheet says under load, for every 1000W load -> 100W of heat are generated. So when charging with 16kVA, you have constant 1600W of heat generated from the device (seems to comply with the 90% efficiency).
So just imagine, for the charging time of 4 hours, a heater blower with 1600W is running. This will result in problems. For charging, less ambient temperatures are extremely important. See tread "energy consumption while sitting", etc.; at TM owners section. With that heat source, you wont efficiently charge, and in summer, you simply have a problem in your garage.
So, depending on the size of your garage, add 4k EUR to EUR 8k for a stationary air condition including installation.
But then - with the air condition running - see overall energy efficiency (AC, Inverter, roadster itself).

Hmm. I like the Schieflast more and more :wink:

dpeilow

08-18-2009, 06:41 AM

You can see that there is no size advantage and certainly no price advantage of taking the smaller converter over a readily available UPS, in this case. But the option is there.

As for heat dissipation, how much heat does the Roadster itself emit while charging? If it takes >70kWh to fill the 53kWh battery, this suggests 1/4 of the 70A from the HPC is going into heat, in which case 1kW from the phase converter is the least of your worries. Best get a heat pump and warm your house :smile:.

I found an interesting thread here (http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/27383/Three-Phase-to-Single-Phase-Transformer). An Indian supplier is talking about doing this with a transformer

EDIT: So I've been thinking about this one and it is puzzling me. I think it is incorrect. The instantaneous voltages in the secondary coils add up to zero. Check by adding up the vectors for the coils in series and you get zero. I'll admit to it being a good few years since I last did this, but can anyone verify this guy's advice?

Alpine Driver

08-18-2009, 10:55 AM

I could add some photos of my power outlet on my flickr album:
Flickr: teslatuning.com's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/teslatuning)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2564/3834392154_3ddf10dd36.jpg

dpeilow

08-18-2009, 04:24 PM

So what they've installed there is a 5 pole 3 Phase + Neutral + Earth IEC 60309 socket (Y connection) which is fully submersible and rated at 63A for 6 hours.

What is the device at the back on the heater?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2650/3834395180_c318a385d4.jpg

Alpine Driver

08-19-2009, 02:40 AM

This is a Schell Easycount 3 electric meter:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3472/3835762569_020b275df8.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2529/3835763029_b8f03c7396.jpg

Manufacturer:
Schell Count - (http://www.guenther-schell.de/schell_counter/cablekWhelectricitymeterforsinglephase/cablekWhelectricitymeterforsinglephase_easycount3.php?navid=9)

Never trust a VDS :wink:

dpeilow

08-19-2009, 03:27 AM

EDIT: So I've been thinking about this one and it is puzzling me. I think it is incorrect. The instantaneous voltages in the secondary coils add up to zero. Check by adding up the vectors for the coils in series and you get zero. I'll admit to it being a good few years since I last did this, but can anyone verify this guy's advice?

Seems my inkling was correct (At least my arithmetic was ok after having not done any AC circuit calcs for 15 years - and that was at school).

I asked a supplier to look into this circuit and just got the following response:

Actually David it is impossible to achieve a balanced loading on a three phase system when supplying a single phase load with a transformer

The phase shift between the three phases means the circuit you have proposed will result in an output of 0V

There are two methods of obtaining a balanced load

1. A three phase to single phase inverter
The three phase is converted to DC then a single phase sine wave AC is created by switching electronics
The three phase supply only sees the DC as a load and is thus balance on the phases

2. A motor generator set
A 3 phase motor is powered by the supply this mechanically drives a single generator
The supply only sees the motor as a load and is thus balanced

There are several methods of converting 3 phase to single phase with a transformer but you can not get a balanced loading on the three phase system with just one single phase output. It could be possible if the load can be distributed between say two single phase ring mains

So there you have it. I'd already discounted the motor-generator method as being inelegant, but maybe it is worth a look again. The last paragraph is essentially talking about the Scott T transformer - it needs two separate loads to be efficient.

So it looks like it the rectifier-inverter (or UPS) is the best method, at least until Tesla lets the cars take three-phase directly and obviates the need for the inverter.

By the way, small, high-power three-phase rectifiers are available.

http://theelectrostore.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/diodes-rectifiers/bridgeRectifier_SanRex_DF150BA80_new1.jpg

Bridge Rectifier, 800V 150A 3-Phase, Sanrex DF150BA80 at The Electrostore.com - Electronic Surplus Parts & Equipment (http://theelectrostore.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/df150ba80-3-phase-bridge-rectifier-sanrex.html)

Powerex Grids (http://www.pwrx.com/Grids.aspx?g=148&m=33)

But, this is only half the story.

dpeilow

08-20-2009, 09:47 AM

I found a great presentation on the Mennekes EV connector standard for Europe here (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/MENNEKES+and+EV.pdf).

For those charging at home with 32A, check page 27.

Alpine Driver

08-20-2009, 11:16 AM

great presentation!
I did not know of the electromechanical interlock - so no "mobile connector" - no cable can be stolen!

TEG

08-20-2009, 11:22 AM

I found a great presentation on the Mennekes EV connector standard for Europe here (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/MENNEKES+and+EV.pdf).

Yeah, I had that linked from my EV charging page (http://teg.net/EV/charging.html) for a while now...

And previously mentioned in this topic.

doug

08-20-2009, 11:57 AM

Yes, from what I've seen the Mennekes connector looks very versatile and well thought out. I wish we could just adopt this standard globally.

dpeilow

08-20-2009, 02:14 PM

TEG has a charging page! :wink:

By the way, this bit...

European IEC 60309 connectors
230V (Blue) Single Phase
400V (Red) 3 Phase

...isn't quite right - the colour just signifies the voltage. You can have three phase blue ones (indeed, this would be the type for the US 208V system). Also, IEC is as much American as European, even if their Boston office isn't very vocal on EV connectors!

Another minor niggle: 480VAC@400A 3P is 332kW, not 192kW (multiply by sqrt 3).

This page (http://www.tuer.co.uk/charge-connectors.htm) has a nice summary of the issues. Interestingly, they claim that the Mennekes connector is pin compatible with J1772-2009 in single phase mode. Looking at the pinouts, I can't see how that is the case - did I read that right?

What does appear to be the case from the above presentation and some of the links on TEG's site is that the pilot signal is the same on both the Mennekes (inherited from IEC 309-2) and J1772, so an adapter should be easy at least.

This IEC 62196-2-X document (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/IEC_62196-2-X%20Proposal%20Troester.pdf) outlines the Mennekes connector, so it clearly is not some kind of industry-only standard.

It also appears that the baseline standard is for 32A, with "case C charging" extending that to 63A three phase and 70A single phase. I guess Menekkes adopted this case, as their press release claims they can handle this current. SAE 1772 is mentioned in the introduction, but not again in the main document.

vfx

08-20-2009, 04:59 PM

I found a great presentation on the Mennekes EV connector standard for Europe

That's a nice writeup on a very nice connector. I'm jealous. Let's see one of these documents on the J1772 for '09.

TEG

08-20-2009, 05:10 PM

Thanks, dpeilow, I made the corrections you suggested.

TEG

08-20-2009, 05:13 PM

Has this been posted already?
RWE presents “filling station of the future” by Financial News (http://www.1888pressrelease.com/rwe-presents-filling-station-of-the-future-pr-134615.html)

(1888PressRelease) July 17, 2009 (http://www.1888pressrelease.com/07-17-2009.html) - RWE is presenting the “filling station of the future” in Berlin. But it is electricity that is doing the filling, not petrol or diesel. “We want electric mobility to become an integral part of our society”, said Dr. Rolf Martin Schmitz, Board member of RWE AG, at the launch in the Sony Center on Potsdamer Platz, Berlin. The project partners are automobile club ADAC, car hire firm Sixt, Siemens and APCOA, Germany’s largest car park provider. Together, they are sending the electric filling station on a road-show tour to seven German cities.
Environmentally friendly and cost-efficient mobility

“It’s not just a question of replacing petrol by electricity. It’s about bringing renewables onto our streets”, said Rolf Martin Schmitz when describing the vision of electric mobility. New wind farms and new solar energy facilities improve the climate footprint of the electric car as they feed clean energy into the grid. With the current energy mix in Germany, electric cars are already more environmentally friendly than any petrol-driven vehicle.

“Electric mobility will become a part of our energy supply network and will increase the share of environmentally friendly power generation. Since the batteries of the electric cars can be charged for variable periods of time, the share of renewables in the grid, which fluctuate depending on time of day or year, can be utilised more efficiently”, explained Wolfgang Dehen, CEO of the project partner Siemens Energy. However, the future is not just clean, it is also cost-efficient: depending on the petrol price, it costs only half as much to fully harge an electric car as it does to fill up a petrol tank. The ADAC automobile association is also participating in the project. “The ADAC considers it essential to provide its members and the general public with comprehensive and competent information about all fuel alternatives. Electric cars play an important role here as they are a promising technology for the future,” said Stefan Mueller, ADAC’s Board Chairman.
Full infrastructure coverage

The experts at RWE estimate that there will be up to 2.5 million electric cars on Germany’s roads by the year 2020. And of course, they will need to recharge with electricity. In Berlin, RWE has already set up 56 charging points for electric cars, by mid 2010 this number will have increased to some 500. “Berlin is and will remain a city in which new and future-looking ideas will have room to develop. I am sure that very soon, the charging points, which still look slightly unusual because they are so new, will become a trademark of Berlin as a clean metropolis,” said Maria Krautzberger, State Secretary for Traffic and Urban Development.

It takes several hours to charge an electric car. This is why RWE is setting up the charging points in places where cars are parked anyway. For example, in the car parks of partner APCOA. “We believe in the future of the electric car. For us, the partnership with RWE is a project that is sending out a clear signal,” said Thomas Veith, Managing Director of APCOA Autoparking GmbH, at the launch of the road show.

Charging points will be set up in Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich before the end of this year. But the big cities are just the start. The longterm aim is to have a network of charging points to cover the whole of Europe. For this reason 20 companies are supporting the development of a standardised charging plug that drivers can use to recharge their electric cars anywhere.
Driving enjoyment with a sporty touch

Germany’s leading mobility service provider, Sixt is also supporting the road show. “Sixt is the innovation leader in car rentals. That is why we promote alternative, low-consumption fuel types,” said Erich Sixt, Board Chairman of Sixt AG. “It is in the stop-and-go traffic in cities, where a lot of fuel is used, that electric cars can gain a good lead on conventional fuels.” Sixt, RWE and Siemens are providing an eRUF, an eRUF Greenster and a Tesla Roadster for people to do organised test drives. Visitors to the road show can see how enjoyable electric cars can be by trying them out themselves. You can see these and other cars at the “filling station of the future” in the Sony Center on Potsdamer Platz in Berlin until 19 July. After that they will be going on their road-show tour around Germany.

Road show stations:

* Berlin (Sony Center on Potsdamer Platz), 15 to 19 July 2009
* Dortmund/Essen (location see RWE Mobility (http://www.rwe-mobility.com)), 30 July to 8 August 2009
* Dusseldorf (location see RWE Mobility (http://www.rwe-mobility.com)), 14 to 19 August 2009
* Hamburg (location see RWE Mobility (http://www.rwe-mobility.com)), 27 August to 2 September 2009
* Frankfurt am Main (Agora site at the IAA in Frankfurt), 10 to 27 September 2009
* Munich (location see RWE Mobility (http://www.rwe-mobility.com)), 8 to 14 October 2009
* Mainz (location see RWE Mobility (http://www.rwe-mobility.com)), 22 to 28 October 2009

Printable picture material:
Printable picture material on RWE electric power for cars can be downloaded free at www.rwemobility.com wurde fÃ¼r einen Checkdomain-Kunden registriert! (http://www.rwemobility.com) and RWE Pressebilddatenbank - Login (http://www.rweimages.com) (access code: EM09).

TEG

08-20-2009, 05:15 PM

“Filling station of the future” Cooperation between RWE and APCOA, Europe’s larg by Financial News (http://www.1888pressrelease.com/-filling-station-of-the-future-cooperation-between-rwe-and-pr-126368.html)

(1888PressRelease) June 14, 2009 (http://www.1888pressrelease.com/06-14-2009.html) - Initially, RWE charging points will be set up at 20 APCOA parking facilities in central locations in Berlin, e.g. at Alexanderplatz or at the Brandenburg Gate. The next step will then be to expand the RWE charging point infrastructure to car parks in other large cities such as Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Stuttgart and Munich.

Thomas Veith, Managing Director of APCOA Autoparking GmbH said, “electric vehicles will play an important role in mobility in the future. APCOA is purposefully investing in the filling station of the future and is offering its customers pioneering services.”

With this strategic partnership, RWE AG has taken one step further towards its objective of developing a full nationwide network of filling stations for electric vehicles. “We are delighted to have Europe’s market leader in car park operations as a partner in setting up the necessary infrastructure for our charging points. Together, we want to demonstrate to consumers that it will soon be a very simple thing for the general public to recharge their vehicles,” said Carolin Reichert, responsible for electric mobility at RWE.

The charging points are being set up in Berlin by RWE and Daimler’s joint pilot project for e-mobility. RWE AG is installing 500 charging points and is using 100 electric Smart cars to test how the public charging infrastructure works, as well as examining the driving behaviour of the users. Until 2012, the largest such project in the world will be finding out how e-mobility can be brought onto the street.

Information on APCOA
APCOA is the largest European car park operator and offers facility owners a full service package for parking. This includes operating parking facilities based on leasing or management agreements. The APCOA Group currently manages some 1.2 million individual parking spaces at more than 5,400 locations in 18 European countries.

Jan-Peter Schwartz
Head of External Communications
T+49-201-12-15023
F+49-201-12-15094

RWE AG - Strom. Gas. Wasser. Dienstleistungen. (http://www.rwe.com)

malcolm

08-21-2009, 03:52 AM

I found a great presentation on the Mennekes EV connector standard for Europe here (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/MENNEKES+and+EV.pdf).

Excellent find. Thank you.

I particularly like the reversible portable cable idea on slide 21 and the summary on 39.

Only slight gripe with the recommendation of a screw cover on vehicle charging ports. Would prefer a lockable flip-lid.

dpeilow

08-21-2009, 05:24 AM

Only slight gripe with the recommendation of a screw cover on vehicle charging ports. Would prefer a lockable flip-lid.

I expect that is necessary to get the IP65 rating on the connector when not in use - necessary for car washes and the British weather this summer.

dpeilow

08-21-2009, 04:26 PM

While this isn't a dedicated 3P > 1P converter, I've seen that Mitsubishi make very compact inverter-based motor controllers (http://download.mitsubishi-automation.com/resources/brochures/206313.pdf) which perform a similar function (and more).

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:CQ-YwpltCj4DnM:http://www.elektroradar.de/WebRoot/Store/Shops/ElektroRadar/Products/Images/23/6201123/650860_211955.jpg

These devices are again using power electronics, rectifying the incoming 3P AC to DC, then reconstructing a variable frequency and voltage 3P waveform to run the attached motor efficiently. It seems to me that if the output stage was programmed to invert all three phases in phase (i.e. 0 deg offset) and the output was paralleled, this would virtually give us what we want. (of course, with a new design it could be a single inverter stage.)

Conceptually, it looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/PWM_VFD_Diagram.png/800px-PWM_VFD_Diagram.png

The 7.2kVA model measures 108x128x165mm and weighs 1.5kg. The 13kVA model is 220x150x147, 3.2kg. The 23kVA model is 220x260x190, 5.9kg. Losses range from 180-500W.

Manual (http://www.acpd.co.uk/sei/s/1488/mitsubishi%20e700%20series%20manual.pdf)

Better still, they are under £1000 (http://www.lcautomation.com/pdf/mitsubishi/Mitsubishi%20E700%20Price%20List.pdf).

Am I totally barking up the wrong tree, or does this show that there is no fundamental reason why a lightweight, portable converter can't be built?

As an aside, even the 0.5MVA ones are ~£30k (http://www.acpd.co.uk/sei/s/1488/f125.pdf). I wonder if this is a good pointer for the eventual cost of a fast charger?

malcolm

08-22-2009, 11:03 AM

The 7.2kVA model measures 108x128x165mm and weighs 1.5kg. The 13kVA model is 220x150x147, 3.2kg. The 23kVA model is 220x260x190, 5.9kg. Losses range from 180-500W.

Am I totally barking up the wrong tree, or does this show that there is no fundamental reason why a lightweight, portable converter can't be built?

If they've been able to shrink the size of the new PEM, this sort of circuit could be added within the existing frame of the vehicle. Also allowing the internal cable between the PEM and the charge socket to be made a bit lighter.

Roadster 3.0?

dpeilow

08-22-2009, 01:59 PM

Well, incorporating three-phase charging into the vehicle would be the best option for EU cars - but if we are going to get into that game then using the regen circuit would be more economic...

malcolm

08-22-2009, 02:31 PM

Well, incorporating three-phase charging into the vehicle would be the best option for EU cars - but if we are going to get into that game then using the regen circuit would be more economic...

I am such a 'tard. Of course, the 3P to DC circuitry is already on-board.

TEG

08-22-2009, 08:09 PM

I am such a 'tard. Of course, the 3P to DC circuitry is already on-board.

But there is a question if the regen circuit really could sustain continuous current for a whole charge cycle like that.

Would 3 phase line current be comparable to AC current coming from a 'regenning' drive motor?

Also how do you switch the connections from the motor over to the 3 phase charging circuit?

I suspect it is all doable, but there might be some complications.

Joseph

08-22-2009, 10:13 PM

The European standard charging plug for cars is selected after Mennekes design — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/05/20/the-european-standard-charging-plug-for-cars-is-selected-after-m?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_autobloggreen)

The Mennekes charging standard is a bit puzzling.

"The plug works both for single phase 230-Volt connections, the vast majority of European outlets, as well as three-phasing up to 63 amps and 400 Volts, which results in a much shorter recharging time."

Tt doesn't sense that all European EVs would have the same connector even though not all European EVs would charge charge from three-phase/single-phase.

Diesel stations have different nozzles than gasoline stations, shouldn't it be the same for single-phase vs. three-phase charging?

Shouldn't the connectors be different to avoid the balancing issues you guys were talking about at the beginning of the thread?:confused:

AndrewBissell

08-23-2009, 04:07 AM

I am fully convinced that, in specifying the requirements for this standard, RWE and it's partners have understood something profound: that the biggest remaining obstacles to practical use of EVs as primary cars are:

1. How to drive a long distance down the autobahn in a single day on the occasions when I need to.
2. How the millions of apartment-dwellers should recharge routinely.

RWE have addressed this by choosing to offer up to 400V 3-phase 63A for recharge. This delivers a 43 kW charge rate.When combined with around 50kWh batteries (in the model of Tesla) the impact is game-changing.

Consider a car with the range of the Tesla Roadster (200 miles Range Mode with the central 160 miles routinely used in Standard Mode). Those central 160 miles use 80% of 53 kWh ~= 43 kWh. So on a 43kW charger the Roadster could in principle recharge 43kWh in an hour (ignoring charging losses) or 160 miles range per hour.

Note: this combination doesn't exist yet because Tesla doesn't support 3-phase charging.

Nevertheless RWE are taking a bold step of the "if you build it they will come" variety. And in my view they have found a sweet spot that manages to exceed a new threshold of user acceptance and yet is within the capability of utilities to deliver cost-effectively.

What are the implications of 160 mph charging?

1. You can cruise down the autobahn/motorway/interstate for 2-2.5 hours, covering around 160 miles, then take a one hour break for comfort and recharge, then cover another 160 miles, another 1 hour charge and comfort break, and repeat ad infinitum. (or variants like drive 100 miles, charge 40 minutes, repeat)

To me this 2:1 drive:rest ratio seems entirely acceptable. I think a large fraction (but not all) of the population would agree (agreeing: those who roadtrip less often and when they do drive up to 500 miles per day requiring just two intermediate 1 hour breaks assuming charging at either end of the day is available; disagreeing: travelling sales people and commercial reps for whom time is money).

By contrast the best-case for current gen Tesla Roadster roadtripping of 160 miles followed by 240V 40-70A recharge (10-17 kW) requires 2.5 to 4.5 hour breaks after 2-3 hours of driving. This ratio of 1:1 to 1:2 drive:rest falls short of my patience threshold. I totally appreciate the pioneering efforts of people in the Tesla Owners community in this regard, but I think the vast majority of people won't accept the resulting travel times for long drives.

If the Roadster incorporates the RWE 43kW standard in future and the German autobahn network (and hopefully other countries networks' around Europe as well) are equipped with 43kW chargers every 100 miles or so, then the Tesla Roadster will be a joy to drive across Europe.

On the utility side, 400V 3-phase 63A (43 kW) is easy for utilities like RWE to deliver to just about anywhere on their grid. Motorway service stations defintely have it.

2. Consider installing such 43 kW chargers at all the usual opportunity charging locations (malls, cinemas, restaurants, public buildings, ...). This solves the other problem: what to do for the millions who live in apartment building who park on street.

We all know the stats that say 90% of driving is less than 40 miles per day. If an EV does 160 miles between charges for city driving, and then re-fills in an hour, then 90% of drivers won't have to charge more than once every 4 days or twice a week. (Many drivers who do fewer miles per day will be fine charging weekly or fortnightly for around town driving.)

An hour charge while at the cinema, gym, supermarket is absolutely fine.

On the utility side, installing thousands of 43 kW chargers in concentrated locations like malls where 400V 3-phase is readily available, is a darned sight easier than ripping up thousands of miles of city streets to equip millions of parking spots with slow (overnight) chargers. (Broadly I estimate that one 43kW at a mall can substitute for around 30 kerbside overnight chargers, and in the early adoption phase gets a far higher leverage factor - ask for details if interested.)

RWE and their consortium partners have been careful not to disenfranchise cars that charge more slowly. They allow single phase up to 70A. I think utilities will easily be able to manage the unbalanced load issues on single phase use of the chargers in public places like malls where vehicle charging is just one of many uses of their electric grid.

To conclude:

To my mind the RWE/Mennekes charging standard allows EVs to be built that allow reasonable time long-distance driving and easy use for city dwellers without private parking.

This is breakthrough territory.

It allows someone to think of buying an EV as their only car, no longer needing either a second car ICE to cover occasional road trips or a PHEV. And it allows EVs to be used by apartment dwellers with a broadly familiar mode of use (park on the street without charging, fill up at the supermarket every so often - in Europe supermarkets already have gas stations and sell a lot of fuel. )

I don't see this as the final end-point - higher charging kW profiles will follow, but this standard crosses a threshold. It does it with standard power already delivered all over the place in Europe; low-cost infrastructure and plugs; cable and sockets capable of being used by anyone.

Andrew Bissell (copyright and republication rights reserved)

dpeilow

08-23-2009, 04:44 AM

But there is a question if the regen circuit really could sustain continuous current for a whole charge cycle like that.

Would 3 phase line current be comparable to AC current coming from a 'regenning' drive motor?

Obviously it's fun to speculate, but I presume the circuit or cooling of the PEM could be beefed up to handle this (and the latter would have to be done for a separate circuit anyway).

The Mennekes plug can deliver a very similar amount of power to that which I have seen quoted for regen (44 vs. 40kW)

Also how do you switch the connections from the motor over to the 3 phase charging circuit?

How does the PEM do it now (or how did it with reductive charging in the old design)?

The Mennekes charging standard is a bit puzzling.

"The plug works both for single phase 230-Volt connections, the vast majority of European outlets, as well as three-phasing up to 63 amps and 400 Volts, which results in a much shorter recharging time."

Yes, 230V <16A outlets form the vast majority of outlets as they are the default domestic ones. They are also found on the majority of today's on-street charging stations.

That's fine for small cars like NICE and G-Wiz, but for high-power EVs like Tesla's it isn't. As you know, even for an overnight charge the car needs >30A. The issue is that some power companies don't like this happening on a single phase as AlpineDriver has found.

Furthermore, even where it isn't requirement, these sockets still exist. I know of even industrial installations in the UK where the main board is 63A 3P. You couldn't run the HPC from one of the phases, yet there is more than enough power available to do a fast charge.

Tt doesn't sense that all European EVs would have the same connector even though not all European EVs would charge charge from three-phase/single-phase.

Diesel stations have different nozzles than gasoline stations, shouldn't it be the same for single-phase vs. three-phase charging?

Shouldn't the connectors be different to avoid the balancing issues you guys were talking about at the beginning of the thread?:confused:

I suppose the difference between diesel/gasoline and 1P/3P is that you can put more intelligence into an electrical connection. The Mennekes-equipped charging station, cable and car will be able to work out which is the weakest link in the chain and charge at that component's fastest rate. It means that average users only have to carry one cable, not bother about things like volts and amps and only worry about how long they have to leave their car on the charger (something I'm sure will be communicated in a user-friendly manner).

Larger charging stations like the 3P Elektrobays and the RWE ones that we have seen will probably have to do balancing internally. Others can tell the car their requirements.

However, this scenario is a while away. In the meantime the trailblazers will have to carry a multitude of plugs and do this themselves - just like in the US - with the added complication that you might want to scavenge (or even charge at home) from a 3P source.

EDIT: Andrew posted in the meantime - 100% agreed.

P.S. It should be remembered that this Mennekes design is not officially a standard. It appears to be their proposal for a new IEC standard which is at least a year away from ratification. Clearly, announcing it as such is a political move designed to railroad their design through. As a "standards" person, this kind of thing normally annoys me, but in this case given that 1) it appears to be well thought out and 2) time is of the essence, I will forgive them :smile:.

malcolm

08-23-2009, 04:58 AM

As you know, even for an overnight charge the car needs >30A. The issue is that some power companies don't like this happening on a single phase as AlpineDriver has found.

Assuming that you and your immediate neighbours have a daily commute/range need of around 200 miles and share a similar taste in cars.

In an average neighbourhood we can expect a mixture of BEV and plug-in hybrids. So we could see a wider range of required currents/ charging habits.

However, the Friday night recharge-for-the-weekend could be the issue.

Maybe a Smartgrid could improve phase balancing? Or 3P is fitted as standard in new garages.

dpeilow

08-23-2009, 05:09 AM

Assuming that you and your immediate neighbours have a daily commute/range need of around 200 miles and share a similar taste in cars.

Maybe a Smartgrid could improve phase balancing? Or 3P is fitted as standard in new garages.

If your neighbours have the same cars and range requirements, the problem goes away :wink:

A smart grid could help, but it requires a lot more EVs to be in the field to improve the chances of other local ones being on different phases.

If we rearchitected local distribution into a star topology, so that the substation could switch individual houses onto different phases as necessary, it could help - but what are the chances of that? :frown: I guess you could have 3P into the garage and use a remotely controlled transfer switch to select between phases, but if you have it there it seems silly not to send it straight to the car and get the 3P benefits.

Lennart

09-20-2009, 08:37 AM

For everyone interested:

I charge on 1 phase 32A, my electrician just installed me a 3 phase plug outside and connected only 1 phase to the cable.

Pics:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=408&stc=1&d=1253460994

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=409&stc=1&d=1253460994

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=410&stc=1&d=1253460994

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=411&stc=1&d=1253460994

Greetings from Germany

vfx

09-20-2009, 06:23 PM

oooo! pretty colors!!

meloccom

09-28-2009, 10:48 PM

Hi,
It looks like there are 3 Phase to Single phase converters manufactured in Australia. (Who'd a thunk it!)
The company is called Polyphaz POLYPHAZ Single to Three phase converters (http://www.polyphaz.com/index.html)
Here is a link to their Polytranz 415V 3Phase to 240V Single phase transformer.
Three phase to single phase transformers (http://www.polyphaz.com/Three_phase_to_single_phase_transformers.htm)
Can't see any motors here.

dpeilow

09-29-2009, 01:24 AM

Good find. I wouldn't mind seeing the schematic for it (couldn't see it on their site with a quick look).

doug

12-02-2009, 11:37 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2779/4152793572_63ef7dce32_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ibm_research_zurich/4152793572/sizes/l/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2666/4152010679_fb603acaa9_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/czlowiekzpolnocy/4152010679/sizes/l/in/photostream/)

Seems to be the common theme of graffiti here.

TEG

12-08-2009, 11:51 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4160663904_595d303c35_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/schwend/4160663904/sizes/l/in/set-72157622941060906/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4160665844_1e7427ed1d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/schwend/4160665844/sizes/l/)

TEG

12-09-2009, 12:11 AM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2771/4140443523_9949bdb6c7_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelbiro/4140443523/sizes/o/)

daghb

12-10-2009, 03:20 PM

Seems to be the common theme of graffiti here.

Doug, seems like you caught my Roadster in the second frame just a few hundred meters from where Obama is tonight. Where did you get that pic?

(edit) I found it on Flickr :)

TEG

12-16-2009, 10:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XAtDNjwEbo

doug

12-17-2009, 01:09 AM

I've said it before, but the charge port is really on the wrong side for parallel parked curbside charging. Wonder what they'll do with it on the RHD model.

Alef Arendsen

12-20-2009, 02:25 PM

Hey, these are my colors (I was talking about the blue one...)! Exactly the same. What interior color did you get. I got the two-tone leather, but kept both black...

About the charging solution; this is also what I did: 32A, one phase, same connectors.

Lennart

01-28-2010, 01:50 AM

I took the microfibre seats... so rather grey. Really happy with that decision!

letoufou

01-31-2010, 02:18 AM

Hello,

Will receive my roadster sport next week ...

Problem is my electric power supply is about 15 meters from where the car will be parked.

What is the length of the cable provided by tesla ?

Do you know in which way adding additional cable length would impact the charge ?

Regards

Toufou

mpt

01-31-2010, 05:18 AM

The standard canle is only a few metres. What country are you in?

You'll need to extend the Non-Tesla end, it's a NEMA 14-50 plug (In the US) on the portable chargers if you have one, an ordinary 110v plug on the free emergency last resort, lots of time on your hands charger that they throw in with the car.

If you're electrically minded, you can make your own extension with plug, socket and cable from the local Home Depot, if not, you'll need to have an electrician make one up for you, same if you're thinking of putting in a new outlet.

The good news is that 15 meters won't affect the charging time.

Have a look around the site, there's much discussion on charging cables and adapters.

Congrats on the Sport!

Alfred

01-31-2010, 08:36 AM

Signature Roadsters are delivered with a European MC 240 fitted with a CEE plug, blue or red. In Switzerland it is a red CEE plug rated at 32A. So you simply buy a 32A extension cord with the red (3-phase) plug. You can get these from your electrician or e.g. by mail from conrad.ch (called CEE Verlängerungen). I would guess that the losses are negligible with a 10m extension. Note that these cables are quite hefty.

dpeilow

02-01-2010, 03:01 PM

This sort of thing: PRISE CEE MURALE FEMELLE 32A sur Conrad : à commander en ligne ! (http://www.conrad.fr/webapps/prise_cee_murale.html)

(Note - you can also get 32A blue (single phase) ones, not shown here. Check what comes with your charger.)

TEG

04-30-2010, 09:26 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2739/4522918214_f3759883bf_b.jpg

TEG

06-02-2010, 08:49 AM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/4663297048_b66de2abf8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dpeilow/4663297048/in/set-72157624059826325/)

Double the power for double the fun :)

dpeilow

06-02-2010, 10:43 AM

Kids - do not try this at home.

This is for advanced users only. You have to know the wiring of the building or ask someone that does.

Besides, it's probably illegal...

doug

06-05-2010, 11:25 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4671241401_4999e3a1a6_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/minkuni/4671241401/sizes/l/in/set-72157624083967715/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/minkuni/sets/72157624083967715/

TEG

06-05-2010, 11:47 PM

Another EU Roadster with the 'base' wheels.
It seemed I was used to seeing nothing but signature models there up until recently.

Kevin Sharpe

08-16-2010, 04:01 AM

What's the reason behind the 32A limitation of the European MC 240? Is it simply the CEE plug?

malcolm

08-16-2010, 05:53 AM

What's the reason behind the 32A limitation of the European MC 240? Is it simply the CEE plug?

As you can see from this link: http://essentialsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Plugs___Sockets_84.html the CEE standard can go up to 125A single phase, so the restriction is more one of practicality. Greater currents require beefier cables and electronics which all add to the weight and general unwieldiness. You have to have the strength to bend/lift the cable to pack it into the boot etc.

Plus given that public charging facilities are likely to have a short lifespan before increasing battery capacities make them obsolete, the cheapest option is that they offer 16 or maybe 32 Amps (here in the UK). Once public facilities die out, these simplest/cheapest domestic ratings will continue to be used in an increasing number of homes.

dpeilow

08-16-2010, 06:08 AM

The trouble is that (and I'm not subscribing to this public facilities dying out theory for a while) once we get into 500 mile battery territory, even household overnight charging will need to be at 63 Amps for a full charge.

But another current consideration is that 63A sockets (the next size above 32A) are far more rare and there is a disproportionate jump in parts costs at that level too.

Kevin Sharpe

08-16-2010, 06:17 AM

Thanks.... I guess what I'm asking is what's the difference between the two cables supplied by Tesla... is it just the termination connector (CEE or 14-50)?

malcolm

08-16-2010, 07:00 AM

Thanks.... I guess what I'm asking is what's the difference between the two cables supplied by Tesla... is it just the termination connector (CEE or 14-50)?

The main (US) site provides this guide. http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/charging/products/universal-mobile-connector-available-october-2009 There is the multi-charger with many attachments and also the single yellow cable (which I guess can be made up with the connectors of your choice)
The NEMA is a US standard so you'd need to contact one of the Tesla stores in your country (UK) for details. Obviously, they would only sell you the one which is correct for your location. Notice that the charger is rated at 240V, 40A.

http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/universal_chargetimes.gif

malcolm

08-16-2010, 07:09 AM

once we get into 500 mile battery territory, even household overnight charging will need to be at 63 Amps for a full charge.

But that's only true if you go on a 500 mile trip, get there (or get back home) and realise you have forgotton something vital which can't be mailed to you and which you have to collect the very next day - not an impossibility, just a bit unlikely.

Otherwise, if you are in the habit of keeping the battery half-full you won't need 63A for an overnight charge.

Kevin Sharpe

08-16-2010, 07:23 AM

The NEMA is a US standard so you'd need to contact one of the Tesla stores in your country (UK) for details. Obviously, they would only sell you the one which is correct for your location. Notice that the charger is rated at 240V, 40A.I've contacted Tesla but can't get a definitive answer about what's different between the two cables. If it's just the termination connector then I can buy in Europe and replace with a 50A part if I so wish (I appreciate they have a 80% derating factor to get to 40A). If however, the US cable is different in some other way then I can buy in the US (I have offices and homes in both the UK and US).

Kevin Sharpe

08-16-2010, 07:49 AM

But another current consideration is that 63A sockets (the next size above 32A) are far more rare and there is a disproportionate jump in parts costs at that level too.I fully understand this.... I intend to deploy a number of simple charge points... in locations where I need a 'quick' charge I'll put a 63A and 16A CEE connector, elsewhere a 32A and 16A CEE connector. I hope that many of these sites will offer access the EV Community free of charge.

dpeilow

08-16-2010, 08:27 AM

OK I see where you are coming from. (By the way, welcome to the site. I'm also originally from Bradford on Avon - must me something in the water.)

We had another thread on the technicalities of the charge signalling. I'm not sure if there are hard limits in the EU MC240 that limit it to 30A, but on other mobile chargers there is a diode whose polarity tells the charger what current to allow. There is also a thermal switch which cuts out if the plug overheats.

It would be very easy to convert that other charger to work in the EU, but the original project to do so petered out. It seems there may be demand for it after all.

EV_de

08-16-2010, 11:26 AM

What's the reason behind the 32A limitation of the European MC 240? Is it simply the CEE plug?

most EU - electric company's will not allow higher currents on a single phase - because of "Schieflast" :-) - unbalanced loads

sooner or later TM has to provide 3-phase charging in EU.
.
.

Kevin Sharpe

08-16-2010, 12:27 PM

most EU - electric company's will not allow higher currents on a single phase - because of "Schieflast" :-) - unbalanced loads
this is a non issue in the UK today.... I'm looking to deploy a 48A (32A + 16A) service at domestic properties, and 79A (63A + 16A) at commercial properties.... my brother runs a electrical installation company and has confirmed that these installations can meet all of the current requirements.

Obviously, "Schieflast" will become more of an issue as the number of EV's grows, but that really is not an issue I need to worry about today... or maybe for many years...

This is also getting a little bit away from my original question.... what I'm trying to find out is whether the only difference between the US and EU cable is the termination connector.

Kevin Sharpe

08-24-2010, 10:19 AM

What's the reason behind the 32A limitation of the European MC 240? Is it simply the CEE plug?For the record, Tesla have confirmed that the only difference between the US and EU cable is the termination connector.

Alfred

08-25-2010, 12:13 PM

And that it limits the current to 30A in the Roadster. The next standard CEE connector would be 64A and those are not often seen. Remember that the red CEE is a three phase plug and could deliver a lot more power, if the Roadster could rectify 3 phases.
- Alfred

Alfred

01-12-2011, 02:55 AM

TexxEnergy (Switzerland) is planning to place new Versions of their charging stations featuring also 63 A Tesla connectors at important motorway locations. The first station is planned for Gunzgen A1, opening May 2011.
Specs planned:

2 x 32A 230V (IMiev)
2 x 16A 230V (CEE)
2 x 63A 230V (Tesla)
2 x 32A 400V (CEE)
4 x 16A 230V (CEE)

The stations include plenty of software and server connections for services, including billing and maintenance. Their construction is essentially modular and can accommodate a wide range of services. Some station will include their own storage, permitting very fast charges and benefits from off-peak electricity recharging.

Further info from:
T e x x E n e r g y A G
Koordination Office
Technopark D4 Platz4
CH-6039 R o o t
tel. +41 (41) 3422424
nat +41 (76) 3682525
info@texxenergy.ch
www.texxenergy.ch

suxxer

01-12-2011, 03:10 AM

Alfred

01-14-2011, 02:00 AM

Nice!
1 hour charge @ 64 Amps should give approx. 80 km range. Thats enough to reach Bern or Zurich.

I just hope they don't just place on in Gunzgen Nord but also in Gunzgen Süd. Cause Gunzgen Süd has the Mövenpick restaurant.... ;)

Exaclty, and yes - both sides are planned to get their stations for up to 6 cars charging simultaneously. Excellent "bring you home coffee-stop" location. We need more of those. Yesterday I test-charged at one of their charge points in Rathausen (CKW head office) near Emmen at 30A with my MC 240 (red CEE 32A). Those stations (their VT-80) are very powerful. For Gunzgen 500A in total were mentioned. They also said that powerful connections can be realised very easily in Switzerland as the basic grid is very strong. Nevertheless they reckon that their battery buffered version will be welcome, as it should be able to benefit from lower tariffs at night and day-time peak shaving, also with no cars connected. Payment systems are cleverly thought out. Among those: Tourists can just buy a prepaid card and if you register with your mobile phone, end of charge will be signalled by SMS. We talked some about Car-to-Grid. Their immediate plans are rather tending towards "Charge Point to Grid". This from the grid operators perspective. For them it very much matters where balancing is needed and can be called upon at short notice (and not from where a given car just happens to be).

suxxer

01-14-2011, 01:01 PM

Nice, thanks for the info Alfred.

Dragon

01-16-2011, 01:26 PM

How do you charge there at 63A? The mobile connector is not compatible, is there a external charger cable you can use exclusively for the Roadster?

Alfred

01-17-2011, 04:36 AM

How do you charge there at 63A? The mobile connector is not compatible, is there a external charger cable you can use exclusively for the Roadster?
This is currently being looked at. Tesla Motors in Zurich was contacted.

TEG

01-20-2011, 11:04 PM

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/e-miglia-2010-9.jpg

Eberhard

01-21-2011, 01:52 AM

if you are in Zurich, you can also charge at the GRAN DOLDER, they have several 400V/32A CEE socket + 1 Tesla 64A (no cable needed)

baslemmens

01-25-2011, 02:22 PM

Hi All,

I've been reading up this post and it was a very interesting read. But one question remains: Has anybody actually set up a method of trying to get more amps from 3 phases to 1 phase to charge your Tesla faster?

Hi,
It looks like there are 3 Phase to Single phase converters manufactured in Australia. (Who'd a thunk it!)
The company is called Polyphaz POLYPHAZ Single to Three phase converters (http://www.polyphaz.com/index.html)
Here is a link to their Polytranz 415V 3Phase to 240V Single phase transformer.
Three phase to single phase transformers (http://www.polyphaz.com/Three_phase_to_single_phase_transformers.htm)
Can't see any motors here.

suxxer

01-26-2011, 04:03 AM

And if you live in Finland - you probably have the best infrastructure one could wish: every parking lot has it's own 220V plug. They plug in their cars overnight when temperatures drop to low levels (below 10 F).

I wonder how the roadster batteries would deal with that kind of weather...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46987000/jpg/_46987586_finland_gallery.jpg

Eberhard

01-26-2011, 04:33 AM

no problems - as long as you are plugged in

baslemmens

01-26-2011, 04:56 AM

Hi all,

I have been reading this thread with interest. A number of options have past on trying to convert EU 3 phases to single phase for faster charging. Besides the technical discussion I wonder whether somebody actually has implemented some solution to solve our 'Schieflast' or need for higher currents without altering your connection to the grid.

In my situation I have 3*25 amps coming in fused to 3 phase 16 amps. This 3 phase connection I like to use for charging my roadster faster. I believe sqroot3*16 amps (-loss) should be available to charge up the car. But looking for some hands-on experience in getting this to work is appreciated.

Eberhard

01-26-2011, 05:35 AM

Kevin Sharpe

01-26-2011, 05:49 AM

widodh

01-26-2011, 05:54 AM

If we had DC charging then we wouldn't really give a damn about the number of phases, voltage, or current available from the utility supply. We would simply have a universal device that rectifies the AC and feeds it to the car in the appropriate voltage for the on-board charger. I think it's interesting that in Japan you are beginning to see widespread CHAdeMO deployments often with no AC sockets available on site. I'm not suggesting that we will all have a ultra-high power DC supply at home, simply that having a DC connector would allow the car to receive energy from any power source worldwide and address the issues we now face with multiple AC standards.Yes, but don't forget that you won't have a DC converter at every place.

So it would be nice if the converter fitted in the car somewhere.

Here in Holland 3x16A is everywhere, gas stations, restaurants, offices, warehouses, etc. I'm planning to make some pictures with my phone and geotag them, just to show how many of those outlets I see in my daily trips around the city (On my bicycle :) )

Eberhard

01-26-2011, 05:58 AM

But then we are bound to an external charger and those are expensive. tesla is reusing the power-electronics as an 1-phase charger but can be upgraded to an 3-phase charger, but they did not. 3-phase charging is be best where 3-phase is available. 400V/32A provides 22kW (63A = 44kW) 240V/70 = 16kW. Higher current needs thicker more expensive cable using more copper.

Kevin Sharpe

01-26-2011, 06:24 AM

Yes, but don't forget that you won't have a DC converter at every place.not at all, you carry it with you.... low power versions could be cheap. The great thing about it is that you could 'feed' the AC-DC converter from any AC supply.

Kevin Sharpe

01-26-2011, 06:30 AM

But then we are bound to an external charger and those are expensive.low power version don't have to be... the big advantage is that you can cope with 1-phase, 3-phase etc with a universal AC-DC device not by re-engineering the car for each market.

Here in the UK we now have in the "wild" UK Standard, "CEE", Tesla, Mennekes, and CHAdeMO.... so 5 different connector standards and NO 3-phase support.

Kevin Sharpe

01-26-2011, 06:32 AM

Here in the UK we now have in the "wild" UK Standard, "CEE", Tesla, Mennekes, and CHAdeMO.... so 5 different connector standards and NO 3-phase support.Sorry, forgot J1772... make that 6 different connectors.

suxxer

01-26-2011, 09:09 AM

no problems - as long as you are plugged in

That's what I assume. But that yields the question how much energy is used for heating the cells 30°C (~50F) higher than the outside temperature...

widodh

01-26-2011, 10:19 AM

not at all, you carry it with you.... low power versions could be cheap. The great thing about it is that you could 'feed' the AC-DC converter from any AC supply.Yes, that was what I meant.

To get back on the connectors, those are just connectors. It is far from ideal, but as the US probably will stick with J1772 (1-phase) and the EU with Mennekes (3-phase) and some other manufacturers with CHAdeMO for DC charging.

But AC power is everywhere, so I'm not a fan of CHAdeMO. 1-phase for the US and 3-phase for the EU would be fine.

cinergi

01-26-2011, 10:53 AM

That's what I assume. But that yields the question how much energy is used for heating the cells 30°C (~50F) higher than the outside temperature...

I'll actually be providing info based on my logs for that soon in this (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4760-Comments-on-disabled-regen-in-the-cold) thread. I had it parked in 0F weather overnight while plugged in and I'm very curious to see how much energy it used.

suxxer

01-26-2011, 12:52 PM

I'll actually be providing info based on my logs for that soon in this (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4760-Comments-on-disabled-regen-in-the-cold) thread. I had it parked in 0F weather overnight while plugged in and I'm very curious to see how much energy it used.

Great! I'll be watching that thread!

baslemmens

01-27-2011, 01:18 AM

converting 3-phase to 1-phase make no sense. you have to rectify the 3-phase to DC. If you convert DC to 1-phase. then the charger in the car has to rectify again back to DC. You make an extra step with additional conversion loss.

Eberhard, I do not totally agree that it makes no sense (apart from the method of converting 3-1 phase). Rectifying 3-1 phase provides you in this case 1.73 times the fused current (16 amps in my case). This means instead of charging the Tesla with 16 Amps resulting in 14 hours load times to 1.73*16=27.7 Amps resulting in theoretical ~ 9 hours charge time. Off course depending on the method of converting the 3-1 phase there will be more or less loss. Let's assume a high loss 20% ?? still leaves me 6 Amps extra, shaving off 2-3 hours of charging time.

widodh

01-27-2011, 04:37 AM

Eberhard, I do not totally agree that it makes no sense (apart from the method of converting 3-1 phase). Rectifying 3-1 phase provides you in this case 1.73 times the fused current (16 amps in my case). This means instead of charging the Tesla with 16 Amps resulting in 14 hours load times to 1.73*16=27.7 Amps resulting in theoretical ~ 9 hours charge time. Off course depending on the method of converting the 3-1 phase there will be more or less loss. Let's assume a high loss 20% ?? still leaves me 6 Amps extra, shaving off 2-3 hours of charging time.Uhm, I might be missing something here:

At 3-phase 16A (230V) you get: 400V x 16A x 1.73 power factor = 11072W of power.

That would make it possible to charge the Roadster in about 5 hours (Not taken any losses into account). So 6 hours should be possible if you could charge at max power.

Talkredius

01-27-2011, 09:48 AM

Here in Holland 3x16A is everywhere, gas stations, restaurants, offices, warehouses, etc. I'm planning to make some pictures with my phone and geotag them, just to show how many of those outlets I see in my daily trips around the city (On my bicycle :) )

Good idea, especially for me living near to the NL-border :-). You could crosscheck them with http://www.lemnet.org, perhaps they are already there.

baslemmens

01-27-2011, 11:38 AM

Hi Widodh,

You're right I was taking a wrong turn on Voltage here. Even better supporting case for 3-1 phase conversion :)
But my question remains. Is there anybody out there that has tried or done anything in this direction?

widodh

01-27-2011, 12:16 PM

Good idea, especially for me living near to the NL-border :-). You could crosscheck them with http://www.lemnet.org, perhaps they are already there.

Oh well, I live in Zeeland at the coast, so you could make the trip there with your Tesla. We also have two private 32A charging stations which are open to visitors! There is even a electrical scooter you can take while your Tesla is charging.

But making pictures of the 3-phase wall connectors is just too prove how much there are. I found 2 3x32A connectors today. I'll make a blogpost in a few weeks with all my findings.

Hi Widodh,

You're right I was taking a wrong turn on Voltage here. Even better supporting case for 3-1 phase conversion :)
But my question remains. Is there anybody out there that has tried or done anything in this direction?

No problem :) But my question is the same as yours!

Eberhard

01-27-2011, 12:18 PM

i would prefer to use an internal 3-phase charger. I do not want to carry a 140kg 3-1phase-transformer which may deliver 3x32A at 230V = 96A (Roadster can only do 70A)

widodh

01-27-2011, 12:30 PM

i would prefer to use an internal 3-phase charger. I do not want to carry a 140kg 3-1phase-transformer which may deliver 3x32A at 230V = 96A (Roadster can only do 70A)Yes, it should be build into the car somewhere.

Btw, I just found: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/charging/products/high-power-connector

Currently the High Power Wall Connector is only available in North America. We are working on developing a unit for all other markets. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Don't know how long that has been there?

AndrewBissell

01-27-2011, 12:52 PM

I think the Tesla online store is misleading. The HPWC is clearly available at least in the UK because some owners have bought it.

Also if you believed the online store then there is no universal mobile connector in Europe - but it is available.

In fact there would be no charging solution for Europe at all - yet we all charge our cars!

AndrewBissell

01-27-2011, 01:05 PM

While I think we all agree with Eberhard that the Roadster should natively accept 3-phase from the wall, today it doesn't, and it may never. Hopefully Eberhard and others can press upon Elon at the Milan customer meeting how much we want this (a Mennekes socket on European cars, accompanied by a European 3-phase UMC would be ideal).

Meanwhile there are several ways to take 3-phase and feed 1-phase to the current car charger. The trick is to make a small, portable decide. I think it could be sourced, if enough people agree to buy (via a group buy). Could you indicate:
1. If you would buy
2. What max fraction of the trunk you could accept it taking up
3. What max weight penalty you would accept
4. What is the max price you would pay
5. If you would use it only for static application (e.g. At own garage)

My answers:
1. Yes
2. 30%
3. 60kg
4. £1500
5. No - mobile

2.

Eberhard

01-27-2011, 02:29 PM

BRUSA has already done a 3-phase charger(liquid-cooled) with 400V/32A producing 22kW power. But there is no DC input available on my roadster, but Model S will have.

Dragon

02-12-2011, 09:27 AM

Has someone a list of all avalaible adapters for Europe? And how much is an adapter, 100 €?

Talkredius

02-12-2011, 09:55 AM

i would prefer to use an internal 3-phase charger. I do not want to carry a 140kg 3-1phase-transformer which may deliver 3x32A at 230V = 96A (Roadster can only do 70A)

100 % agreed, and even if you would accept a transformer you would still have no connector for the Roadster. They do not sell it seperately, may be you could use the spare adapter from the US Tesla Store and cut off the line, but I'm not sure if you can dismantle the connector.
A while ago I asked Mennekes for an adaptor Mennekes <=> Tesla Roadster, they are working on that but no product yet.
They now have their own Roadster, this might improve things...:smile:

dwegmull

02-12-2011, 10:13 AM

100 % agreed, and even if you would accept a transformer you would still have no connector for the Roadster. They do not sell it seperately, may be you could use the spare adapter from the US Tesla Store and cut off the line, but I'm not sure if you can dismantle the connector.
A while ago I asked Mennekes for an adaptor Mennekes <=> Tesla Roadster, they are working on that but no product yet.
They now have their own Roadster, this might improve things...:smile:

The connector can be dismantled. The problem is that the wires are crimped into the pins of the connector and therefore cannot be easily changed. You will have to buy the $1500 mobile connector to get wires rated to 70A.
Pictures of the connector tear down here: http://wegmuller.org/v-web/gallery/MC120TearDown (the gallery has two pages).

Talkredius

02-12-2011, 10:37 AM

Pictures of the connector tear down here: http://wegmuller.org/v-web/gallery/MC120TearDown (the gallery has two pages).

thanks and whow, your home page looks like you could build your own Tesla Connector from a block of metal:smile:

dpeilow

03-03-2011, 06:55 AM

Are there any EU owners out there with an HPC (or regularly use one) who charge at 70A?

Eberhard

03-03-2011, 09:27 AM

those i know charge with max. 64A in germany

Kevin Sharpe

03-03-2011, 02:10 PM

Are there any EU owners out there with an HPC (or regularly use one) who charge at 70A?I have an HPC but I have rarely used it. At home, and at locations I visit often, I've installed 32A "commando" sockets.

dpeilow

03-03-2011, 02:53 PM

I have an HPC but I have rarely used it. At home, and at locations I visit often, I've installed 32A "commando" sockets.

Yes but what amperage is your HPC providing?

Kevin Sharpe

03-03-2011, 03:02 PM

Yes but what amperage is your HPC providing?If I remember correctly I used it at 70A a few times and 40A a bit more than that.... I don't use the HPC often because 32A meets my needs and the HPC cable can be difficult in the tight confines of my garage.

Does that answer your question or are you looking for a more technical response?

dpeilow

03-04-2011, 04:00 AM

If I remember correctly I used it at 70A a few times and 40A a bit more than that...

Does that answer your question or are you looking for a more technical response?

If it definitely supplies 70 A then that answers my question, thanks.

those i know charge with max. 64A in germany

Do you know the reason it is 64A?

Talkredius

03-08-2011, 01:52 PM

If it definitely supplies 70 A then that answers my question, thanks.

Do you know the reason it is 64A?

I think it's a typo, should be 60 A. Normal house installation in Germany is 3 x 400 V @ 63 A, and the HPC isn't a 3 phase to 1 phase transformer or I'm wrong here ?
The sales people in Munich told me, they could switch it to 60 A max. I don't own one.

Only in industrial areas you could get the max. of 70 A

dpeilow

03-08-2011, 03:12 PM

Maybe not a typo as I too saw 64A on an HPC on my Edinburgh trip.

Kevin Sharpe

03-08-2011, 03:29 PM

My HPC has the following settings (controlled by a rotary switch inside the unit);

0: 12A
1: 16A
2: 24A
3: 32A
4: 40A
5: 48A
6: 60A
7: 70A

dpeilow

03-08-2011, 03:37 PM

Is that a Clipper Creek or the old Tesla in-house one?

Kevin Sharpe

03-12-2011, 02:06 PM

Is that a Clipper Creek or the old Tesla in-house one?Tesla in-house (I think)... part number 06-001919-00

Eberhard

03-12-2011, 02:59 PM

Tesla 3-phase charger for Mercedes A-Class? If they did it for Mercedes, why not for the European Model S? source: mercedes-benz PR

Flexible charging options
The batteries of the A-Class E-CELL can be either replenished at public charging points or plugged into an ordinary household power socket. A range of charging options are available, including single-phase 230-volt sockets, three-phase sockets in a household wall-box, and public recharging points. Using a  single-phase 230-volt network, it takes around eight hours of charging time to accumulate the energy required for a range of 100 km (NEDC). This time is reduced to just three hours in the case of charging from a wall-box or at a recharging point
Daimler and a number of other European automakers and energy utilities have agreed on standardised charging plugs and sockets, with an ultimate aim of worldwide standardisation. This makes the technology more customer-friendly, and is seen as a key prerequisite for the rapid spread of electric mobility.
Intelligent charging management
Like the smart fortwo electric drive, the A-Class E-CELL is the world’s first vehicle in its class to be fitted with an intelligent charging management system based on "SmartCharge Communication". Via the vehicle electronics system, all relevant information – such as the electricity supply contract identification data – is exchanged with the charging point. Benefits include a convenient, simple and totally reliable billing system.

From tesla official annual paper:

we provide services for the development of electric powertrain components and sell electric powertrain components to other automotive manufacturers as evidenced by our development services and sales of battery packs and chargers to Daimler AG (Daimler) for its Smart fortwo and A-Class electric vehicles