WhiteStar styling ideas

[TEG]

I searched through a lot of sedan concept car images, and collected up some of the ones I thought looked most modern, stylish, sophisticated, classy, aggressive and cool:

http://www.cwwcardesign.com/cars/pics/fisker__mezzogiorno.jpg
http://www.diseno-art.com/images_2/2008_BMW_Concept_CS.jpghttp://www.diseno-art.com/images_2/2008_BMW_Concept_CS_side.jpg
http://blog.vehiclevoice.com/Jag_09_XF_07Cncpt_bl_12.jpghttp://blog.vehiclevoice.com/Jag_09_XF_07Cncpt_bl_11.jpg
http://blog.vehiclevoice.com/Jag_09_XF_07Cncpt_bl_3.jpghttp://blog.vehiclevoice.com/Jag_09_XF_07Cncpt_bl_8.jpg
http://blog.vehiclevoice.com/A_M_08_Rapide_bl_front.jpghttp://blog.vehiclevoice.com/A_M_08_Rapide_bl_rear.jpg
http://www.automobilemag.com/future_cars/2007/0505_porsche_panamera_1.jpghttp://www.dancewithshadows.com/auto/images/porsche-panamera.jpg
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/07porsche184.jpg
http://www.italiancar.net/site/FACTfiles/alfa/alfaVisconti/picts_big/AlfaRomeoVisconti_07_lg.jpg

Modded production cars (perhaps a better design for a $30K 3rd model):
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/12/tommy_kaira.jpg
http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/01/tsxaspec05.jpghttp://www.edmunds.com/media/2002/paris/mazda/03.mazda.6.mps.f34.500.jpg
http://www.motorage.com/motorage/data/articlestandard/motorage/102006/312090/031606NL_UC3.jpghttp://www.alfaromeo.com/ALFAROMEO_COM/uploads/1006/1073788109/20050721/KVB_159_com.gif

[tonybelding]

I like the "fastback" shape of that Alfa Romeo Visconti concept car.

I would be terrible at styling cars because I am too reactionary.* I'm usually against whatever is currently fashionable.

Some currently fashionable cars that I do like are the current Aston Martins.* But they seem to have a timeless quality, I think they will still look good 20 years from now.* I can't say the same for the Chevy Volt, for example.* :P

I generally don't like boxy or chunky shapes.* I think the 1980s were the lowest point of car design, when all the cars looked like a box with another box sitting on it.* (And that reminds me of Papa's burgundy red 1989 Cadillac Brougham, which was by far the crummiest car we ever had.)

[Michael]

Quite a few beautiful designs. Many of them though, look like they would have severely restricted rear seat headroom. I do hope that Tesla doesn't have to sacrifice too much comfort.

[Iz]

I like the 4-door beamer. Rear doors slide open in the same manner as those on some mini-vans.

[dsacks6]

The second car is a photoshop of a car that was designed by the supposed future designer of the whitestar, henrik Fisker.

[TEG]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/10/fisker1-450.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/08/908_1.jpg
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/08/908_2.jpg

[malcolm]

The new Eagle from Lotus. Due at the UK Motor Show this July. Apparently it is a four-seater.

http://www.coolsupercars.com/wp-content/pics/2007/10/project-eagle.jpg

Lotus "Eagle" coming in 2008 - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/31/lotus-eagle-coming-in-2008/)

[Hunter]

I agree with those who like the Alfa Romeo for style, but I also agree that it and some of the others look like rear headroom would be compromised. Also, I like the BMW, except (like some of the others) that it follows the recent trend of really high window sills and thus tiny windows. What's with that? Sure, it looks "tough" from the outside...but when I'm inside I want to actually see outside. About that Lotus...looks a bit small, and only has two doors. And it's pretty exotic looking for a sedan (probably since it's a coupe). As for Tesla sacrificing comfort in its design, that doesn't sound likely to me. First off, they get to do just about anything they want, since the motor is tiny and the batteries can go anywhere...so there's really no reason for the interior not to be roomier than anything else in its class (does this thing have a class?). But also I would cite Elon's statements so far about the Roadster: he forced a redesign to lower the doorsills, and now he's saying they're going to replace the seats...all just for comfort. If that's the way he thinks about their performance car, I'd expect the luxury sports sedan to be downright, well, luxurious.

Anyway, isn't this all a moot point? Don't they already have the body design done? And darn it, when do we get to see this thing? They keep saying "soon."

[TEG]

I saw that "Lotus Eagle" but didn't mention it here because it is only a 2 door.

[BBHighway]

Actually, they said we would get a first look at Whitestart in the second quarter.

I take that as meaning sometime in June. It could be as soon as April, but I wouldn't count on it.

[doug]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/07/lotusesprius.jpg

[TEG]

Yeah - yeah - they should have announced that on April 1st...

Super-secret photo of Tesla Whitestar leaks out of San Carlos - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/12/super-secret-photo-of-tesla-whitestar-leaks-out-of-san-carlos/)

Elius ?
Prelise?

[TEG]

Reminscent of the "Porschius (http://www.core77.com/blog/images/idsa2b.jpg)".

[doug]

Elius ?
Prelise?The file says Lotus Esprius.

[TEG]

OK, I prefer Prelise.


Esprius sounds like a Lotus Esprit and Prius merger.

[doug]

Actually I interpreted that filename as "Lotuses Prius"... (like Lotus' Prius)

lotusesprius.jpg
Also in the ABG Gallery (http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/lotusesprius/915320/) is says "LotusEsprius". While the name works nicely for the portmanteau, that ABG monstrosity looks nothing like the Esprit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Lotus_Esprit_S2_1980.jpg/800px-Lotus_Esprit_S2_1980.jpg

[Iz]

Esprius? Prelise? The people at ABG have a good sense of humor.

[Laurent]

For me, Model S needs to be a practical car with lots of space for passengers and cargo. I recently heard a Tesla employee mention that it would provide ample space, much more than a BMW 3-series, closer to a 7-series. In terms of the actual design, he said that they were in the process of making a clay model and that the "real" car would be unveiled before the end of year. I certainly hope so.

http://images.europeancarweb.com/news/0407_03z+bmw_5_series_touring_wagon+left.jpg

[graham]

So... with the Model S design not public yet (not finished yet?) we can still speculate about it. The age old question remains on the design: For a 5-seat sedan in the $60k class would you prefer a more aerodynamic design, or one that is "nicer" looking.

The Roadster is nice looking, but not super aerodynamic (as no convertible can be). The EV1 was more aerodynamic, but arguably not as nice looking.

The Model S will be (I'm guessing) a 4000 lb sedan. So by default its range and power will have more challenges than the Roadster currently has. They can make it super aerodynamic and make the numbers go up... and make a car that will be difficult to sell to the mainstream on looks. They can make a car look very nice, but have lousy range, acceleration etc.

Where would you like them to compromise? For those interested in buying a Whitestar is it more important to you to have a car which looks very nice, or one which has superior range/power numbers?

[vfx]

Well if the Fisker Karma had indeed been the Whitestar (S) final design it would have struck a pretty good compromise for us. We have a down on the FK but will pull that in a nanosecond if the S is Superior.

[Cobos]

I would like a decent compromise, or rather I want 100 miles range with low price or very good looks. If they can do 100 miles range and 6.0 secs on 0-100, I'm more than happy. A 100 miles and 7.5s I would still buy if the price was right. My main problem seem to be it is essentially priced out of my range. Or $60 000 isn't but 60 000 Euro probably is... Looking more generally, would say the Fisker is in many ways a decent compromise between looks and airodynamic shape, but I'd prefer that the Model S was a lot less polarizing in design than the FK. It's a bit too much hate it or love it. I like the new Jaguars and Aston Martin DB9 kind of looks. I've seen one Maserati Quattroporte in Oslo and that design is fantastic in real life IMHO. Probably a bit too big for the Model S but that would be fantastic.

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

For me I need a range of at least 175-200 miles. 0-60 in 6 seconds is perfectly acceptable. BUT I will not buy a car that I consider ugly. So a car that is super aerodynamic is probably not going to work for me given the past super aerodynamic cars. Deal killers for me are wheel skirts - hate those ugly things. And probably this hatchback idea that is floating around. I am VERY disappointed that our "family sedan" has seemed to move to a Coupe hatchback. I was looking for a LUXURY SEDAN. Meaning a BMW 5 or 7 series, a Mercedes 300S or 500S, an Audi A6 or A8 or even the new Jag FK (I think that is right). I want 4 doors and a trunk. I am coming from an SUV now so a coupe hatchback is too small for me. I really hope that the S is compatible with my needs because I would really hate to have to wait for another model or manufacturer to come out with something else.

[Laurent]

Here is what I'm looking for. First of all, the car has to look good and it has to be comfortable for 2 adults and 2 kids, otherwise it's a non-starter. The range is the most important thing, it needs to be at least 150 miles (EPA) so that we can drive around the Bay Area without worrying about running out of electrons. We like to go to Monterey (90 miles away) every once in a while but I guess we'll have to take the minivan for that. Same goes for Tahoe obviously. Second most important thing is performance. 0-60 is 6 seconds is just fine, that's actually very quick compared to what I've been driving lately (you guessed it, it's the minivan :biggrin:). And least important thing is the price. If price was important, I wouldn't be on the waiting list for a Roadster ! :tongue:

[flabby]

Personally, I love the idea of a hatchback...so much more practical (surfing, camping, hauling stuff, etc., and, of course, family:smile:), as long as they can make it look good. I seriously doubt that it will be a coupe (2d) hatchback, more likely it will be a sedan (4d) hatchback.

I spoke to one of the guys at the menlo park store on Tuesday and asked him about rumors of multiple motor choices for the whitestar. He said the choices will more likely be with battery sizes. He said the base car will probably cost around $60,000 and get about 150 miles to the charge, and that the 240ish mile per charge car will likley have a base price of around $70,000 to $80,000.

[malcolm]

So it's quite likely there will be numbers in the name: S150, S240. Although they will probably use the battery energy capacity figure rather than the EPA range.

[Cobos]

I do hope they'll use the battery energy, but I'm afraid they'll use the EPA miles since that is easier to understand for the uninitiated, even though it makes less sense from a engineering standpoint.

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

Flabby,

That is all well and good but I have been racking my brain to come up with a 4DR hatchback. I can not think of any that are on the market. All the hatchbacks that I can remember are 2DR coupes. Can we share some 4DR hatchbacks !!! I want 4DRs Nothing I HATE more than having to move my seat for someone to get in the car !!!!! ARRRRRG except maybe those ugly wheel skirts. They have to top my list :)

[flabby]

Kevin
I'm fully with you about the whitestar having 4-doors...if the whitestar has only two doors, it won't buy it. Four doors for me is a must.

Most of the four door sedans in the US nowdays I believe are called crossovers or sports wagons (possibly to give them a "coolness" factor and remove them from the bad stigma of the "station wagon" label applied to various four-door hatchbacks of the past). Following are a few 4door hatchbacks that I found after doing a quick internet search (I'm sure there are more):
US Crossovers/wagons: First Generation Saab 9-3, Buick Enclave, Infinity EX and FX , BMW X6, Audi A3, Saturn Outlook, Cadillac SRX Crossover, Saab 9-5 and 9-3 SportCombi, GMC Acadia, Pontiac Torrent Crossover, Pontiac Vibe, subaru outback, Subaru Impreza 5-door and outback sport, Subaru Impreza Wrx 5-door and WRX Sport, VW Jetta Sports Wagon, Mazdz CX-7 and CX-9

In the UK and much of Europe, because of the hatchback's popularity, most automobile manufacturers offer numerous 4-door hatchback models. In the US, 4 door hatches are gradually becoming more popular, but the standard here is still the sedan. I believe, as was pointed out by TEG in an earlier blog, the reason is probably because a trunk is viewed by many as being more secure than a hatch.

As an aside,
I read a quote by Elon in an interview a while back, but I can't seem to find it, that gave me the impression that Telsa was going to attempt to steal away not only the sedan croud, but also some of the SUV croud with the whitestar.
(SUV's are also four door hatch backs, they have four doors and a hatch back:biggrin:).

[doug]

That is all well and good but I have been racking my brain to come up with a 4DR hatchback.
Here's the Mazda 3 hatchback. They tend to call them 5 doors:

http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide/photos/2005/Mazda/MAZDA3/Hatchback/2005_Mazda_MAZDA3hatchback_ext_1.jpg

[TEG]

There a quite a few 4 door sport hatchbacks (AKA 5-door) but they all tend to be less expensive than the Model S market.

Some examples:

Subaru WRX
Mitushibish Lancer
Mazda6
IS300 Sportcross

http://p.webwombat.com.au/motoring/images/subaru-wrx-sti-2008-1-big.jpg
http://redlineculture.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/large.jpg
http://www.niot.net/niot_570/mazda_6_5door_niot.net.jpg%20(5).jpg
http://images.securedwebform.com/stock/300/LEXUS/IS300/2005/5ES.JPG

[Kevin Harney]

I was really AFRAID that you'll would name Station Wagons and Cross overs. These are not Hatch backs in my little old humble opinion. They are Station wagons and SUVs. The only one I have seen that was a hatch back was the Lancer and that is fugly looking. If it is like an SUV - great that is what I drive now but then call it that. Cross over is a station wagon or small SUV call it that. What I don't like about the hatchbacks are the rear window on the same plane as the trunk area ie a long flat slant from the roof to the bumper. I want a break in angle for the trunk or straight down from the roof llike an SUV. I got to tell you that I was REALLY hoping for a SEDAN as was first reported. 5 seater with a trunk typical sedan. Now that that has changed I am disappointed and will probably not like whatever they put out :( But I am keeping my fingers crossed that I am WRONG. I have resigned myself that it will be a piece of crap so that I have a slight chance of being excited when they come out that it is not anywhere near as bad as I pictured. I have NEVER seen a true HATCHBACK that I like. Very practicle but IMHO fugly and I would NEVER buy one.

[TEG]

...Porsche Panamera again...

http://media.autobild.de/bild/3/771a0160a12ebda3a0a7aad6c1a99933_1.jpg
http://gmotors.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/porsche-panamera-2.jpg

Planned Hybrid too (http://www.carpages.co.uk/porsche/porsche-panamera-07-01-08.asp)

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/upload/7570/images/PorschePanameraPIC.jpg

[Michael]

Wouldn't a Prius also be considered a hatchback?

[doug]

Wouldn't a Prius also be considered a hatchback?
Yes. I think if done right, a hatchback can look ok. Been recently doing quite a bit of moving and it is certainly a much more functional design.

[Kevin Harney]

All of these listed are Bluestar material not Whitestar IMHO. I want LUXURY for $60K.

[doug]

All of these listed are Bluestar material not Whitestar IMHO. I want LUXURY for $60K.
I understand your opinion (though I don't necessarily agree). I suppose they could save the functionality for Bluestar. I'd like Bluestar to be a 2 door, 5 seater hatchback with rally car like proportions (and performance :wink:).

[Kevin Harney]

Doug,

That was not my point at all. I think that Bluestar can be anything and I think your ideas of styling are really good . What I am saying is that I want LUXURY in my Luxury Sedan and for me a hatch back aint it. I want four doors and a trunk and all of the ammenities you can think of in a car and then some. I have all that and more in my Jeep Grand Cherokee and I only spent $40K for that. If I am spending almost double that for a Whitestar I want my money's worth :) And IMHO simply putting in an electric motor aint worth double. That is all I was saying. All of the cars listed above with the possible exception of the Porsche are really $20K - $30 K cars not $60K - $80K cars.

[Kevin Harney]

And, I expect Bluestar to be the equivalent of a Honda Accord or Toyota Camary. Something that is the modern day equivelent of the model T - something that millions of people can afford and drive easily. Not necessarily the styling of those cars but the philosophy of them. Something that is for the blue class worker to lower middle class.

Whitestar on the other hand should be the equivalent of a Mercedes 500 class or a BMW 5 or 7 series or an Audi A6 or A8 or a Jaguar F class. Shall we say a step above. Or something that is upper middle class or lower upper class.

[Cobos]

I can agree that Model S should supercede the Pruis in luxury. I'm not too averse of the hatchback shape and for the Norwegian market a hatchback will do better than a sedan. But to really hit most customers in this segment in Norway I'm pretty sure they need a station wagon shape in addition or instead of a sedan. They sell boatloads of station wagons in Norway, so much that most crossovers are called wagons here not SUVs. But I suppose that is too much of a special shape so I expect it to be some kind of sedanlike shape.

Cobos

[TEG]

I can agree that Model S should supercede the Pruis in luxury.

Don't forget that there is a plan to offer a Lexus (http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0804_future_lexus_hybrid/index.html) (more upscale) version of Prius.

[Kevin Harney]

Cobos,

Unhappily I think that you are wrong - or in this case maybe right LOL Confusing ... I believe that it will be a cross over or station wagon type design. We have already been told it is a hatchback and we have been told it will steal some of the SUV market and we have been told it will be a car for the mommies. I am very depressed that I might have to wait until Bluestar when I want one now :mad: But I am still hoping for something I can use in the Whitestar.

[dpeilow]

Don't forget that there is a plan to offer a Lexus (http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0804_future_lexus_hybrid/index.html) (more upscale) version of Prius.

Are these available in the US?

LEXUS - HYBRID RANGE (http://www.lexus.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-range/index.aspx)

[TEG]

Yes, all of them. The rx400h is particularly popular around here. I don't see too many of the others.

[Cobos]

Since most normal mid-sized sedans like the Audi A4 and A6 both comes in sedan and station wagon shapes I wouldn't say it's too much of a stretch if Tesla does something a bit similar. Looking at the Ford Focus in Norway you can get that as station wagon, sedan and hatchback. All using almost the exact same parts.
As to the Hybrid Lexus's, I was thinking of compared to a "regular" Prius not any possible Lexus badged version. Speaking of Hybrids in Norway Lexus almost only sells their Hybrid models since they are so cheap compared to the competition. Though Lexus is very small in Norway in total sales anyway...

Cobos

[flabby]

Kevin, I understand that you don't like the 5-door look, and that's fine. But just for information purposes, there are some high end luxury 5-doors out there.
Two examples:
-Mercedes E63AMG Wagon- $87,000
Mercedes-AMG (http://www.mercedes-amg.com/index2.html?loc=us/showroom/models/e63e)
-BMW M5 Touring (available in the UK, 68,000 pounds/$130,000)
BMW UK : BMW M5*Touring Model overview (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/index/0,,1156___bs-TQ%3D%3D%40bb-TTVfVE8%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html?requestSource=topnav)

Note: I'm not sure I did the conversion for the cost of the BMW correctly. Seems a bit high. I would expect something more around $85,000 since the M5 sedan sells for $83,000 here in the US.

[dpeilow]

No, that is correct - that is the sort of premium we end up paying.

[Cobos]

While in Norway you can get it for the special offer price of $343 000 with 2 year warranty :)

Cobos

[flabby]

While in Norway you can get it for the special offer price of $343 000 with 2 year warranty :)

Cobos

Ouch!!! I think I'd wait for the whitestar. :smile:

[Cobos]

Yes if you are comparing the Whitestar with the 5-series BMW as Tesla has said, and you assume the Whitestar will sell for around $60 000 + 22% European markup like the Roadster, you get a Whitestar price of $72 600.
Considering that the 520i with a stick costs $90 300 this should be interesting, regardless of styling.

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

It is not the 5 door look that I don't like. Some are nice. That is why I am still holding out some hope for the Whitestar. What I don't like is the Fastback kind of look where the roof goes diagonally down to the bumper with no break in styling. What I drive now is a 5 door. Jeep Grand Cherokee. When I think of Hatchback cars I think of those with the long sloping tail end which I do not like. I do not think of Station Wagons or Cross Overs or SUVs. All of which are a far better choice that what I think of as a Hatchback. My point is if it is a Cross Over or a SUV or Station wagon then call a spade a spade. I suppose that the difference is that a "hatchback" has different connotations to me and can be a more encompassing field than what comes to mind on the first mention of it.

[flabby]

Gotcha...I understand now.

[Michael]

I'm kinda thinking that an Audi Avant or Volvo V60-70 type look wouldn't be to bad. Or, how about the Lotus designed APX or ZAP-X?

[Kevin Harney]

Michael,

Please bite your tounge !!! Volvo should be a four letter word in my book. They have NEVER produced a good looking car. Safe yes - good looking NO :biggrin:

[dpeilow]

Michael,

Please bite your tounge !!! Volvo should be a four letter word in my book. They have NEVER produced a good looking car. Safe yes - good looking NO :biggrin:

That's debatable, but each to their own...

http://www.saint.org/blog/uploaded_images/1962-volvo-p1800-white-795833.jpg

http://www.volvoadventures.com/1900_vermant3.jpg

[vfx]

My 2 cents (where is that "cent$" key?)


I trust the Tesla team. The Roadster came out very nice. Very very nice. Not exciting or whacked out wicked awesome, but understated and classy. Nothing to hate.
My only concern came when Elon said he was going to design the car. I would like to believe that was his ego talking like a movie Producer talking about "his" movie -when what he did was assemble a Writer, Director, Actors, Production Designer, and Cameraman to create a film "for" him.

Then we find out that Fisker was doing the Whitestar. The Karma is simply luscious and someday we will see what Henry was doing for the Whitestar. The new guy has an OK petagree and decent designs (I used to really like the Solstice) so I feel they will do a good job putting together a desireable car. Any cool car that can carry more than the Roadster's microtrunk at the lower pricepoint is all my wife and I are looking for.

We have a down payment on the Fisker but will switch to a Model S in a second if it fills the above requiremnets and pushes our emotional buttons.

[TEG]

http://bp2.blogger.com/_hno8-UbSPr8/RwsUjc_c2HI/AAAAAAAAAI8/R7der2x7uHA/s320/SP32-20060824-125751_1_.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_hno8-UbSPr8/RwsUBc_c2CI/AAAAAAAAAIU/zIS5_ul4hE8/s320/Copie+de+mercedes-cls-class.jpg

[Kevin Harney]

Again GREAT choice. NOT a hatchback :confused:

[TEG]

Gilles: Chrysler done with 'Edge' look, going 'Organic' - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/20/gilles-chrysler-done-with-edge-look-going-organic/)

[graham]

Again GREAT choice. NOT a hatchback :confused:

Out of curiosity, would you like the Whitestar if it looked pretty much like a CLS, but had the hinges above the rear window instead of below?

[Kevin Harney]

Yes I would like that .. I said it was a nice design. My point is more to the fact that there are really NO production hatchbacks in the luxury class of car. Why is that ? No market for it perhaps ? Nobody has shown me a picture of a 4 door luxury production hatchback yet. I like the coupe look and the sedan look and even the look of a CUV or SUV it is just the look of the hatchback that I dislike. There has to be a reason that there is not a LUXURY HATCHBACK in production anywhere in the world !!!! My guess is that a hatchback does not give the luxury image ... to me anyway that is true though that is just MHO.

[Laurent]

I don't particularly like the CLS design. The headlights are the ugliest part:

http://www.autounleashed.com/images/mercedes_benz_cls_facelift.jpg

[Kevin Harney]

agreed on the headlights but the body styling is nice. Put Roadster lights there instead and all the sudden not so bad looking...

[stopcrazypp]

Yes I would like that .. I said it was a nice design. My point is more to the fact that there are really NO production hatchbacks in the luxury class of car. Why is that ? No market for it perhaps ? Nobody has shown me a picture of a 4 door luxury production hatchback yet. I like the coupe look and the sedan look and even the look of a CUV or SUV it is just the look of the hatchback that I dislike. There has to be a reason that there is not a LUXURY HATCHBACK in production anywhere in the world !!!! My guess is that a hatchback does not give the luxury image ... to me anyway that is true though that is just MHO.

There are some hatchbacks from luxury makers: The 1 series from BMW & A class from Mercedes. However they are lower price range and smaller. The closest in the higher price range is the BMW X6, but that is more of an SUV.
http://www.carfolio.com/images/dbimages/zgas/models/id/13861/2007_bmw_1_series_5-door_6.jpg
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/mercedes-a-class-2.JPG
http://image.automobilemag.com/f/9753870/0804_06_z+2008_bMW_x6_xDrive50i+and_xDrive35i.jpg
I'm guessing the Model S is going to look like a coupe or sedan, and we pretty much know that it will have 4 or more doors. I think a smaller hatchback is fit for Tesla's third model, but I am fairly sure the Model S won't be a small hatchback because of it's $50k starting price.

[TEG]

R-Class?

http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide/photos/2006/Mercedes-Benz/R-Class/Minivan_Van/2006_MercedesBenz_R-Class_ext_1.jpg

[Cobos]

The R-class is a station wagon isn't it. That's what I always thought it looked like. A humongous station wagon perhaps with a little bit more road clearance than a "normal" station wagon. I like the R-class though, but I dare say that is too big for the Model S. Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

Stopcrazy and TEG,

Again yes all nice but not what we have been told. DS recently said there are no plans yet for a CUV or SUV or Station Wagon. These are 5 door cars which have been ruled out by DS in his comments. TM has no current plans for these types of vehicles but the platform will support them in the future. That was the gist of the comment. So what remains to be seen is a luxury HATCHBACK. Not a SUV. Not a CUV. and Not a Station Wagon type vehicle.

[Cobos]

Double post...

[Michael]

I do hope that whatever comes out, that there is still sufficient headroom. I understand that the Mercedes CLS is a bit limited in the back seat.

[vfx]

... the BMW X6, but that is more of an SUV.

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/9753870/0804_06_z+2008_bMW_x6_xDrive50i+and_xDrive35i.jpg


When I saw the ads for the X6 I thought it was amazingly beautiful. A perfectly stylish SUV. I went out of my way to catch one at the local dealership.Not so hot in person. Just looks good on film.
.
.
.


Sort of like Jessica Simpson.

[TEG]

The distinction between hatchback and "station wagon" ("Estate Car" in Europe) can be somewhat blurry.

I bet EM's target is something like the Maserati Quattroporte Bellagio Fastback...
http://www.sybarites.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/carrozzeriatouringmaseratiquattroportebellagiofastback.jpg
http://www.sybarites.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/l_003474.jpg

[stopcrazypp]

Stopcrazy and TEG,

Again yes all nice but not what we have been told. DS recently said there are no plans yet for a CUV or SUV or Station Wagon. These are 5 door cars which have been ruled out by DS in his comments. TM has no current plans for these types of vehicles but the platform will support them in the future. That was the gist of the comment. So what remains to be seen is a luxury HATCHBACK. Not a SUV. Not a CUV. and Not a Station Wagon type vehicle.
I'm well aware they ruled out SUV, CUV, and Station wagon,which is why I said "but that is more of an SUV" for the X6.

My guess is Model S will look like the BMW Gran Turismo (AKA CS Concept), the Mercedes-Benz CLS, Maserati Quattroporte, Aston Martin Rapide, Porsche Panamera (all of these designs are posted in this thread except the Quattroporte), all of which are all sedans which look like coupes, except the Model S will have a hatch.

Since TEG posted the Fastback Maserati, I'll post the normal version:
http://www.outrefranc.com/pleinsphares/img/maseratiquattroporte2.jpg
http://www.outrefranc.com/pleinsphares/img/maseratiquattroporte4.jpg


The Panamera does fit your original request for a luxury hatchback (I forgot it was a hatchback), and it is higher end in pricing, similar to Model S. Here's a look at a more production ready version:
http://www.automotto.org/images/spy-shot-porsche-panamera-image4_5965.jpg

[TEG]

The top 4:

Porsche Panamera:
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/11/porsche-panamera-11.jpg

Aston Martin Rapide:
http://cdn4.leftlanenews.com/photos/cars/aston-martin/thumbnails5.0/2010-aston-martin-rapide-38_318.jpg

Maserati Quattroporte Bellagio Fastback
http://www.sybarites.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/l_003474.jpg


BMW CS:
http://www.carstyling.ru/resources/concept/2007bmw_cs_s01.jpg

[vfx]

Aston Martin Rapide:
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2006/01/stories/01/01large.jpg



Long ago I chose this one as my Whitestar design. The Fiskar choice was a bonus.

This one makes me drool like Homer Simpson. Aaaaawstuuuun Maaaaaartiiiin

[dpeilow]

Does it have to be 4 door? I really fell for this now and it looks so much nicer in reality too.

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/02/audi_a5_new.jpg

[TEG]

Does it have to be 4 door? I really fell for this now and it looks so much nicer in reality too.

Yes, this whole topic is speculation about Whitestar styling. We know it will be 4 door + probably "hatchback" of some sort. To me this topic is now more about guessing what "Model S" might look like, and less about what styling I like.

There are a gobs of 2 door Coupes that we could mention here, but that isn't the point.

[Edited my post to remove pix of 2 door BMW. DPeilow - care to remove Audi & Volvo pix from this topic?]

[graham]

Does it have to be 4 door? I really fell for this now and it looks so much nicer in reality too.

Yes, I think Darryl Siry (and perhaps Elon Musk) have been quoted as saying that it will be a 4-door hatchback.

Edit to add: TEG types faster than I do :-)

[dpeilow]

Sorry <slaps wrist>...

Perhaps the new A4 then :-/ ?

[stopcrazypp]

Long ago I chose this one as my Whitestar design. The Fiskar choice was a bonus.

This one makes me drool like Homer Simpson. Aaaaawstuuuun Maaaaaartiiiin

Of course like Michael mentioned earlier, there are concerns about headroom with these kind of designs (similar in the Fisker and the CLS).

However, I have to agree, something like the Rapide would be awesome as a Model S design. It's the best looking of the bunch, in my opinion.

[graham]

something like the Rapide would be awesome as a Model S design. It's the best looking of the bunch, in my opinion.

Agreed! Now if only Tesla would do something like hire Aston Martin's designer...

Or maybe that would not turn out so well...

[vfx]

Hey what's the car on the wall behind JB?
Technology Review: Videos (http://www.technologyreview.com/video/index.aspx?id=742&brightcove=1655720422&iframe=tr35&autoplay=true)

While we are at it, what is written on the blue tape (probably from the factory)?

XXX XXX Vehicle
Mileage in ________Date_________
Mileage out _______Date_________
500 miles Prod'n PEM

[TEG]

Yeah, I noticed that pic on the wall. Seems like it is next to pix of IGBTs. It looks a like like a Mercedes CLS to me, but who knows.
http://www.auto-motor.at/Auto/Autos-Neuwagen/Automarken-Automodelle-Neuigkeiten/Mercedes-News/Mercedes-CLS-Klasse/Mercedes-CLS-350-hinten_high.jpg

Regarding the tape - I think they use that to log mileage in and out, and dates while it is being tested.
In the video, the tape says "Prod'n (Production) PEM" There is probably a more sophisticated way they could do that, but sometimes crude tools are the best way to get the job done.

By the way, the pic on his LCD is the Roadster mule as seen in page 3 of this presentation (http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/pressguild.swf).
(During filming for the spot in 'Who Killed the Electric Car' perhaps?)

[stopcrazypp]

Agreed! Now if only Tesla would do something like hire Aston Martin's designer...

Or maybe that would not turn out so well...
Yes, that turned out real well...:rolleyes:


Yeah, I noticed that pic on the wall. Seems like it is next to pix of IGBTs. It looks a like like a Mercedes CLS to me, but who knows.
Yes it looks like it's just the CLS. I highly doubt they would leave sketches of Model S pinned up during a video interview.

[vfx]

I highly doubt they would leave sketches of Model S pinned up during a video interview.

Sort of like leaving a mule in front of the new showroom. It's a 4 door and it's been put up so it means something. Even if that something is disinformation.

The IGBTs above the candle (candle?:confused:) Looked like they might the real thing in a plastic pack.

TEG I think your car match is a good one.

[Kevin Harney]

So the gaunlet remains thrown... Please post a picture of a LUXURY 4 DOOR HATCHBACK. Please do not include any SUV's, CUV'c or Station Wagons or Estate Cars. And nothing with a trunk. Just curious as to if we can come up with anything in the whole world ?!?!?!?!?! THANKS :smile:

[Kevin Harney]

Is JB's Video gone !?!?!?!? I can't seem to get it to play when I click on it ....

[ChargeIt!]

Agree on the CLS on the pix. Regarding the video: did not play for me either, until I used the "get link" button near bottom edge of video and pasted the link into a new browser window.

[Kevin Harney]

I don't see a get link button .... where is it ?

[ChargeIt!]

Along the bottom edge of the black/charcoal window that presents the video, at about the same level (height) as the play/pause/email/speaker/Menu buttons ... found it ?

[Kevin Harney]

I don't even get that far. Can you paste a link here for me ? Much thanks :)

[Laurent]

I don't even get that far. Can you paste a link here for me ? Much thanks :)

Linky (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1460879066?bctid=1655720422)

[Kevin Harney]

Thanks so much but now it is blocked here at the office so I have to view it at home. When will they allow me to enjoy my day here at the office like I should :rolleyes: LOL

[stopcrazypp]

So the gaunlet remains thrown... Please post a picture of a LUXURY 4 DOOR HATCHBACK. Please do not include any SUV's, CUV'c or Station Wagons or Estate Cars. And nothing with a trunk. Just curious as to if we can come up with anything in the whole world ?!?!?!?!?! THANKS

Hmm, I thought I answered this request. See my previous post with the BMW 1 series, Mercedes A class. They are "LUXURY 4 DOOR HATCHBACK"s, but they are lower in price range. A luxury hatchback in the higher price bracket is the Porsche Panamera.

I'll repost:
Lower price range:
BMW 1 series, luxury 4 door hatchback:
http://www.carfolio.com/images/dbimages/zgas/models/id/13861/2007_bmw_1_series_5-door_6.jpg
Mercedes A class, luxury 4 door hatchback:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/mercedes-a-class-2.JPG
Audi A3, luxury 4 door hatchback:
http://www.new-cars-usa.com/new-car-research/audi/images/2006audi_A3.jpg

Higher price range (same as Model S):
Porsche Panamera(production), luxury 4 door hatchback:
http://www.automotto.org/images/spy-shot-porsche-panamera-image4_5965.jpg
All of these are luxury 4 door hatchbacks (yes hatchbacks, not SUVs, CUVs, or stationwagons).

[TEG]

Is JB's Video gone !?!?!?!? I can't seem to get it to play when I click on it ....

Video still works for me.

[TEG]

So the gaunlet remains thrown... Please post a picture of a LUXURY 4 DOOR HATCHBACK. Please do not include any SUV's, CUV'c or Station Wagons or Estate Cars. And nothing with a trunk. Just curious as to if we can come up with anything in the whole world ?!?!?!?!?! THANKS :smile:

I thought the Porsche Panamera, and Maserati Quattroporte Bellagio Fastback fit the bill... How do they differ from what we know of Model S right now?
(Aside from being gasoline powered)

[Kevin Harney]

stop the top 3 (cheaper ones) seem to be cross over or small sport ute category to me. Porshe is a good example of a really ugly car but fits the build. I hope that is not what we have to look forward to :eek:

[stopcrazypp]

stop the top 3 (cheaper ones) seem to be cross over or small sport ute category to me. Porshe is a good example of a really ugly car but fits the build. I hope that is not what we have to look forward to :eek:
The Top 3 cheaper ones are firmly in the hatchback territory, the manufacturers even call them hatchbacks; it's just they are on the small side and thus is cheaper in the price range (basically the lowest price range).

Traditionally hatchbacks are supposed to look like what the Top 3 cheaper ones look like. You can look up non-luxury hatchbacks and they basically all look like that.

However the style of the Porsche is more of a "fastback" look, where the "roofline slopes continuously down at the back".
Fastback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastback)

I imagine the Model S will look more like that than the traditional hatchbacks b/c it is higher price. Fastbacks tend to look more sporty than traditional hatchbacks (which as you said looks more like a small SUV). Don't be discouraged by the Porsche's looks, the CLS is also fastback (the wikipedia article describes it as such) and it looks much better.

[TEG]

Well, if you are going to get all Wiki on me, note how they say (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_body_style) that the back window doesn't open on a Fastback:
"Fastback
A design where the roof slopes at a smooth angle to the tail of the car, but the rear window does not open..."
(Maserati notwithstanding)

So, we are back to Hatchback...
"Hatchback
Identified by a rear door including the back window that opens vertically to access a storage area not separated from the rest of the passenger compartment. May be 3 or 5 door and 2 to 5 seats, but generally in the US the tailgate isn't counted making it a 2-door and 4-door."

Maybe we want Liftback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liftback)?
(like the Ford Mondeo?)
http://www.carsandtuning.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/new-ford-mondeo-2.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/7/q/l/ford_mondeo.jpg
...And the Prius (http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-main-forum/2493d1175741662-transport-bike-inside-prius-picture_6_copy.png)...

[stopcrazypp]

Well, if you are going to get all Wiki on me, note how they say (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_body_style) that the back window doesn't open on a Fastback:
"Fastback
A design where the roof slopes at a smooth angle to the tail of the car, but the rear window does not open..."
(Maserati notwithstanding)

Maybe we want Liftback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liftback)?


Hmm the wiki entry for the fastback seems to say different:
"When the rear window of a car with a fastback profile is integral to a lid or 'fifth door' (i.e. a hatch) giving access to the trunk area, the car may also fit the classification of hatchback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatchback) or liftback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liftback)"
Fastback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastback)
Fastback seems to refer to the profile, not really how the trunk/hatch opens. A Liftback can either be a "fastback" or a "notchback" in profile according to wiki.

Regardless of what the "real" definition is, I'm just going to say when I used the term "fastback" I just wanted to refer to a profile where the "roofline slopes continuously down at the back".

[vfx]

From Ken Gibson in the SUN.
Electric dreams | The Sun |Motors|Ken Gibson (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/motors/ken_gibson/article1591204.ece)



The Californian firm are already close to finishing a four-door electric family car ...I was given a sneak preview of pictures of the car and it looks a bit like an Aston Martin ...

http://www.allcarwallpapers.com/wallpapers/previews/aston-martin-rapide-5044.jpg

:smile:

[stopcrazypp]

From Ken Gibson in the SUN.
Electric dreams | The Sun |Motors|Ken Gibson (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/motors/ken_gibson/article1591204.ece)



The Californian firm are already close to finishing a four-door electric family car ...I was given a sneak preview of pictures of the car and it looks a bit like an Aston Martin ...

http://www.allcarwallpapers.com/wallpapers/previews/aston-martin-rapide-5044.jpg

:smile:
While this is great news for those of us who like the Aston's look, it makes me wonder if they kept too many elements of the Fisker design (after all, the current Astons basically follow Ian Callum & Fisker's DB9 design). It'll be interesting to see how the final Model S design compares to Fisker's original Whitestar design, but it's unlikely they will show Fisker's design given the lawsuit. Oh well, I'll be happy just to see what Model S looks like after such a long wait.

[Kevin Harney]

So can all of you interenet searcher types find a Astin Martin Hatch back or coupe that it might look like ?

[Kevin Harney]

and BTW Astin Martin is REALLY good company to keep IMHO !!!!! :smile: This gives me hope again !!!

[TEG]

So can all of you interenet searcher types find a Astin Martin Hatch back

2004 Aston Martin-Bertone Jet2 Concept | Aston Martin Concept Cars | Automobile.com (http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Aston%20Martin/concept/2004-aston-martin-bertone-jet2-concept/582/)

[flabby]

So can all of you interenet searcher types find a Astin Martin Hatch back or coupe that it might look like ?


2006 Aston Martin Rapide Concept - Top - Open Doors - 1920x1440 Wallpaper (http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2006-Aston-Martin-Rapide-Concept.htm)

and some photos at a car show

Aston Martin s .com Picture Gallery - Rapide Concept (http://www.astonmartins.com/gaydon_vh/rapide_concept.htm)
http://www.seriouswheels.com/2006/2006-Aston-Martin-Rapide-Concept-RA-OH-1280x960.htm

[stopcrazypp]

So can all of you interenet searcher types find a Astin Martin Hatch back or coupe that it might look like ?


2006 Aston Martin Rapide Concept - Top - Open Doors - 1920x1440 Wallpaper (http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2006-Aston-Martin-Rapide-Concept.htm)

and some photos at a car show

Aston Martin s .com Picture Gallery - Rapide Concept (http://www.astonmartins.com/gaydon_vh/rapide_concept.htm)

Thanks for the links flabby. Wow, so the Rapide is actually a hatchback, it looks just like a coupe/sedan (I thought it had a standard trunk, never saw the back open before).
http://www.astonmartins.com/gaydon_vh/images/DSC_3198.jpg

Kevin, I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Aston can make a 4 door luxury hatchback that looks that good (the Rapide), then I have no worries about Model S.

[flabby]

Thank you for posting the photo. I've been trying to do that for the last hour. Still haven't figured that one out, even with help from some forum members.

[Kevin Harney]

If the Whitestar looks anything near as good as the Rapide I am there :smile: Put one on order for me !!! Here is hoping for the best still. I have renewed faith.

[graham]

I agree that if the Model S looks like the Rapide, it would be an awesome car. I wonder how easy it is to have circuits to charge 2 Tesla cars? Or can you easily coordinate to charge 2 cars from a single charger?

[vfx]

2004 Aston Martin-Bertone Jet2 Concept | Aston Martin Concept Cars | Automobile.com (http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Aston%20Martin/concept/2004-aston-martin-bertone-jet2-concept/582/)

Amazing find TEG. This actually does what I need. I currently drive an SUV for the times I have to haul gear to work and back. That's only about 15% of the time so the rest of my driving is extremely wasteful. I at least bought the most stylish (to me) SUV on the market but this AM concept kicks it's a**! The AM (if made) would probably be 2 to 3 times the price and probably even worse mileage but an EV of this one would sway me.

Thanks Flabby That shot of the AM Rapide back open gives hope. To me this is the perfect configuration for the Model S. Covers all the bases and still looks great. And looking at the comments here it seems to be the car of choice. Wouldn't it be great if this was the car that caused Tesla to hire Fiskar in the first place?!?

I could make the Rapide work by loading up the passenger seat but that would be a crime wouldn't it?

Sigh...

[domenick]

My contribution to the discussion.
http://www.wintonsworld.com/cars/a-cars-2005/2005-carpics/citroen-c6.jpg
I went with this angle because the grilles on most of these are too distracting and the Whitestar probably shouldn't have one anyway since aero is so important.

[flabby]

Some tidbits I garnered about the Model S (Whitestar) from our group meeting at the Menlo Park store:

-It was confirmed that price differences for the Model S will be because of the number of batteries in the car. ie. you pay for the distance the car can go.
-the battery pack will be in the floor of the car.
-Initial offering of the Model S will go to roadster owners beginning just after the end of the year. Offering to the general public will begin around April of next year.
-The deposit will be between $3000 and $5000, but has not been finalized.
-Jeramy said the Model S is "Huge". When I asked him what he meant by "Huge" (whether he meant wide, long or both) he said that the car is very long. (Again fitting the styling of the very long Aston Martin Rapide, 2006 Aston Martin Rapide Concept - Top - Open Doors - 1920x1440 Wallpaper (http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2006-Aston-Martin-Rapide-Concept.htm)). He also mentioned that the car will be closer to the size of a BMW 7 series.

[TEG]

We also asked about trade-ins. As always they aren't taking any trade-ins for Roadster purchases now, but may consider doing it for Model-S. They seemed to think if someone wanted to trade a Roadster for model-S they would probably try to accommodate that request. No final decisions about any of that, just something they are considering.

[Joseph]

"He also mentioned that the car will be closer to the size of a BMW 7 series."

As the battery pack becomes more compact, hopefully they can scale down their cars. At the size of a 7-series though, I can't imagine it being nearly as much fun to drive as the Roadster.

[doug]

OnElectricCars.com Anticipation builds for Tesla’s Model S (http://www.onelectriccars.com/model-s/anticipation-builds-for-teslas-model-s/50)

[vfx]

OnElectricCars.com Anticipation builds for Tesla’s Model S (http://www.onelectriccars.com/model-s/anticipation-builds-for-teslas-model-s/50)

They are quoting us but I had never heard of them. Thanks for the new lkink.

[graham]

OnElectricCars.com Anticipation builds for Tesla’s Model S (http://www.onelectriccars.com/model-s/anticipation-builds-for-teslas-model-s/50)

From the article:


This is still all speculation, but anything rolling out of Tesla Motors is sure to be superbly designed and built, given their track record.

Trying to decide if they are being facetious or not... Do we have any idea where this publication "stands" with regards to Tesla?

[doug]

Trying to decide if they are being facetious or not... Do we have any idea where this publication "stands" with regards to Tesla?
I had never heard of the site before either. But skimming through a few of the other posts, the author seems to mean well enough. Favorable comparisons with the with other vehicles, etc.

[flabby]

"He also mentioned that the car will be closer to the size of a BMW 7 series."

As the battery pack becomes more compact, hopefully they can scale down their cars. At the size of a 7-series though, I can't imagine it being nearly as much fun to drive as the Roadster.

With all of the weight of the batteries in the floor of the car, the center of gravity has to be quite low...I would think cornering would be fantastic, even if it is a large car.

[TEG]

With all of the weight of the batteries in the floor of the car, the center of gravity has to be quite low...I would think cornering would be fantastic, even if it is a large car.

Both the RAV4EV and RangerEV have the battery pack mounted near the center of the vehicle laid out flat near the ground. Both of them have very flat cornering for such tall vehicles. The Tango proves the point better than anything. It looks like it should tip over, but having the weight all down so low keeps it stable even during hard cornering.
http://www.commutercars.com/images/gallery/marinaAutocross/marina04.jpg

[graham]

Yeah, ever since I first saw that Tango video in 2003 or so I have always thought of the Tango as a Weeble :-)

[Laurent]

-Initial offering of the Model S will go to roadster owners beginning just after the end of the year. Offering to the general public will begin around April of next year.

Any hints as to when it will be unveiled ? Obviously some time in the next 4 months. Maybe at the LA auto show (http://www.laautoshow.com/) ? Or at a press-only event ?

[graham]

Any hints as to when it will be unveiled ? Obviously some time in the next 4 months. Maybe at the LA auto show (http://www.laautoshow.com/) ? Or at a press-only event ?

They were not specific about that. The closest specifics we got were that the Model S design needs to be completed by the end of this year. This is to allow them to have enough time to do all the DOT safety testing to ship in 2010. We can assume that shortly after they finish the design they will show it to the public, but that was not mentioned.

[Joseph]

Having all that weight down low does make the car more stable, but there's still a rule that's rarely broken: A huge 7-Series-like car will likely be a heavy car; a heavy car, no matter how stable, rarely has the driving dynamics of a more compact car.

There are exceptions. The X6, Charger SRT8. These are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. It can be done, it's just uncommon.

[graham]

The ball-park number I have heard folks from Tesla throwing out is around 4000 lbs.

[stopcrazypp]

Having all that weight down low does make the car more stable, but there's still a rule that's rarely broken: A huge 7-Series-like car will likely be a heavy car; a heavy car, no matter how stable, rarely has the driving dynamics of a more compact car.

There are exceptions. The X6, Charger SRT8. These are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. It can be done, it's just uncommon.
A Charger SRT8 is ~4140lbs, so it isn't too heavy (given it is based on an older E-class, which is midsized, chassis this shouldn't be a surprise). An X6 is actually 4894lbs-5269lbs depending on the engine. If they can make the X6 handle well, then if Model S is ~4000lbs it shouldn't be that bad.

A standard V8 7 series is ~4500lbs. The Quattroporte, which is the segment Model S is supposed to be in, weighs ~4400lbs and most reviews say it handles well. I would expect the Whitestar to weigh around this range if the materials are more conventional.

A 5 series handles well and it is ~4000lbs, but it is midsized.

It'll be a challenge to keep it at ~4000lbs rather than ~4500lbs given the heavy batteries and the size of a 7 series. But the Jaguar XJ8 is only 3726lbs, it's a big and long car, and it uses an aluminum frame and body (like the Whitestar, the body part at least), so perhaps Tesla might pull it off.

[GSP]

I'm sure the Quattroporte handles well for what it is, a grand touring car. However lower mass and lower polar moment of inertia will make the handling of a car much more responsive. A Lotus Elise will change direction much quicker than a grand touring car like the Quttroporte or an Aston Martin. Likewise, a go-cart can run circles around the Elise.

Kinda of like comparing a Pitts Special to a CitationX biz-jet.

I'm glad to hear that the Model S is going to be 7 series sized. Providing 7 series like accommodations is a good way to keep the cost/value equasion of the Whitestar competitive with gasoline cars.

By the way, with the Whitestar now called the Model S, I assume the Bluestar will be the Model T. How cute.

GSP

[malcolm]

Autocar UK claim to have a rendering of Model S:

Autocar - Scoop: Tesla's future (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/234774/)

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg

[TEG]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg

Hints of Mazda Rx8 there...
http://www.philsblog.com/archives/rx8_exterior.JPG

[graham]

Interesting comparison, TEG! They made a point in the article that this design is incomplete. They did this before they hired Franz von Holzhausen from Mazda with the intent that he complete the last 10 percent. It is interesting that it already resembles a Mazda design.

Of course it is difficult to tell what it really looks like from that picture. Supposedly it looks to some like a CLS as well... which looks nothing like an RX8 :smile:

[vfx]

The Mazda has the hidden half doors. It is hard to see the back doors in the rendering. To me that arrangement is a great function/styling solution. I even ordered an RX8 based on the pre-press when it was coming out the first year. When it arrived I went to the dealership and after driving it, I passed. Was not too impressed with the handling. Hope my grey/red color choice sold quickly for them.

I thought someone had said the nose of Model S kept the styling cues from the roadster? I see at the bottom the inverted smile grill but the new grill is a shape they have added -and will become relatively permanent to the company's look.

BTW that Autocar article had a bunch of new info. A racing series was one of them.

[doug]

Comparison with the Roadster.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3035/2808536183_845108e261_m.jpg

[Laurent]

RS vs. S

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2826020332_726500ca04_m.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2826020332_a5aed93d5b_o.png)
http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg

[stopcrazypp]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg
http://www.auto-sport-prestige.net/images/fiches/uk/aston/DB7_Vantage_Coupe_00.jpg

I can see why they said it looks a bit like an aston, it also has a mouth-like front grille, but beyond that, not really.

They obviously incorporated the Roadster's lower grille and maybe even the headlights. The rear details are unclear, so can't comment on that. Hopefully we see the final design soon!

[TEG]

I don't know why they need the big "mouth". With electric motors being so much more efficient than gas engines, there is a lot less heat to reject. You probably don't need as much airflow as with a 'gasser', so a more sleek nose would seem to be possible.

[graham]

I was wondering the exact same thing. Isn't the grille on the Volt fake? And it even has an engine.

[Joseph]

I've always wondered the same thing. I mean, the EV1 didn't even have a grille. Why does the Roadster have such a huge (for EV standards) grille?

I'm guessing it's mostly for looks?

[TEG]

That "oval mouth up high" makes me think Ford Taurus, unfortunately.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/media/seo/500/2006.ford.taurus.jpg
http://www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Ford/5894/2000.ford.taurus.3737-300x189.jpg

[domenick]

I found this design to be a little disappointing. I'd be curious to know the exact lineage of the sketch since I suspect it that, if it is a child of Tesla, it will be disowned.

[Brent]

That "oval mouth up high" makes me think Ford Taurus, unfortunately.


Yeah...I see the Buick LaCrosse, but either way, sorta bland styling. Although if the Toyota Camry can sell zillions, maybe bland styling isn't all bad.

[TEG]

I see the Buick LaCrosse...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg
http://images.autobytel.com/view/aic/BUICK/LACROSSE/sdn/usa_2007_buick_lacrosse_sdn_4_x_exfrdrvr75_x.jpg

[graham]

I found this design to be a little disappointing. I'd be curious to know the exact lineage of the sketch since I suspect it that, if it is a child of Tesla, it will be disowned.

I wouldn't worry too terribly much about the styling yet. The sketch is from before they hired their designer -- That was to determine size and shape, not distinctiveness. His first task is to finish the look of the car. Maybe it will be just as bland, but there is a good chance the look will change before it is released - hopefully for the better.

[stopcrazypp]

That "oval mouth up high" makes me think Ford Taurus, unfortunately.


Proportion-wise the Taurus and LaCrosse is spot on, but the positioning of the oval is lower than the headlights, unlike both of those with it aligned with the headlights.
Maserati oval is similar in positioning.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/rapunzelmonkey/work/maserati-gran-turismo.jpg
http://www.carpages.co.uk/maserati/maserati_images/maserati_quattroporte_07_12_06.jpg
The design reminds me of the Ferrai California the most, probably because of the similar lower grille.
http://static.blogo.it/autoblog/ferrari-california/FerrariCalifornia.jpg

[TEG]

The picture has some typical "styling exercise" bits of impracticality.
For instance, there is no gap between the wheels and the wells, so it wouldn't likely have enough suspension travel to comfortable. Also it looks too low/flat and might not be tall enough to fit tall passengers. If that is a real concept drawing I would expect it would need to change quite a bit before it was production ready.

[TEG]

I suppose we need the comparison to the Chevy SS concept...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Tesla/3988101641.jpg
http://www.autoshowusa.com/MTAS/Repository/Images/Concept_Cars/preview_ChevSScroped.jpg

[graham]

From Siry's Twitter:

Twitter / TeslaMotors: Also, the sketch in Autocar... (http://twitter.com/TeslaMotors/statuses/909484877)


Also, the sketch in Autocar is not a Tesla sketch. It is their rendition of what they think Model S will look like.

[doug]

I figured they drew it after seeing the sketch Siry showed them.

[graham]

I figured they drew it after seeing the sketch Siry showed them.

Yes, that is what I figured too. However, I am guessing since he is making a point of noting it - the Autocar sketch isn't very representative of the final product. Either because they didn't do a very good copy of the original, or because the design is changing enough to make it noteworthy.

Or maybe the Autocar sketch is very accurate, and they are getting enough negative feedback that they are going back into the drawing room :smile:

[TEG]

http://automobile.nouvelobs.com/images_breves/5682.jpg

[Joseph]

Ah, good thinking. That Mercedes concept does seem to embody the direction Whitestar is heading towards.

There is yet another car to add to out list however: the Cadillac CTS station wagon. (Or shall I say, "sports wagon.") You really should watch the video below also, in order to get a better feel for the car. It's the best looking, true station wagon I can think of.

Monterey 2008: 2010 Cadillac CTS Sport Wagon revealed LIVE - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/15/monterey-2008-2010-cadillac-cts-sport-wagon-revealed/)

http://image.motortrend.com/f/10715685/112_0808_01l+2010_cadillac_CTS_sport_wagon+side_view.jpg (http://image.motortrend.com/f/10715685/112_0808_01l+2010_cadillac_CTS_sport_wagon+side_view.jpg)

[Cobos]

I'd really like to know what is so wrong with station wagon. This is a perfectly normal station wagon. It might have sporty lines or it might not, a station wagon it is nonetheless. It's the same naming problems I have with all the small SUV's, oh I mean "Crossovers" not SUV of course... bah....
Sorry about that, just had to get it out...

Cobos

[tonybelding]

I'd really like to know what is so wrong with station wagon.

It's all about associations and mental images. When people hear "station wagon" they picture this:

http://zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/image/cars/station-wagon.jpg

I've heard that minivans are now suffering some of the same stigma. They've victims of their own strengths. . . They're immensely practical family vehicles, therefore they develop an association with mundane parenting duties, and potential buyers are afraid of looking like stodgy, tied-down parents. Even if that's what they are. Or maybe especially if that's what they are.

[ChargeIt!]

Tony makes a very good point. I mentioned elsewhere about the fantastic performance of the "4matic" (all wheel drive) on my Benz and its no-snow-chains-required performance in the Lake Tahoe region. Well guess what ... it is an E320 Wagon ! And you should have heard the comments from the (8th grader) son after I came home with it brand new ... "I am not about to be dropped off at school in THAT thing!" But of course they did ... despite months worth of reluctance ... also from the high-schooler that hated being picked up in it ("are you coming to get me in mom's car?"). It's a case of peer-pressure (the most dangerous issue in a teenager's life -- one which they need to be weaned off of).
As to joseph's comment: Yes I also test drove the "CTS sportswagon" ... a few years ago; I think its called the SRX. Very nice also, good road handling and performance. Did not look at it too closely, but at least it had made it into my top 10 back in 2004 or 2005).

Ok ... update ( I hadn't looked at joseph's link yet ). Back then there was the SRX that I test drove (Cadillac SRX - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_SRX)). Now it seems they are coming out with something different. I do like the styling on either one.

[Cobos]

I of course know that the US has a stigma associated with wagons, but I find it silly. And it is in stark contrast with our car sales.
Looking at the 5 biggest sellers in Norway for 2007 you get this:
Volkswagen Passat 7200 units
Volkswagen Golf 6100 units
Toyota Avensis 5600 units
Volvo V70 4200 units
Toyota Rav4 units.

Out of those the Passat is available in both wagon and sedan, but I guess they sell in about 8:1 ratio for wagon here. The Golf is a compact, but exists in a "extended" version as a wagon. Avensis is AFAIK only available in wagon, I don't think I've seen a Avensis sedan ever. The V70 is Volvos high-end wagon, and finally the Rav-4 is an example of our love of small SUVs.
So in Norway if you need space you buy a wagon.
Thought I'd add some pictures as well of those models to show you what a good selling wagon looks like. I've added the new Mondeo from Ford as well which is selling very well this year.

[doug]

Hmmm... ya know I was pretty patient before. But with the official unveiling of the Volt today, I'm eager for some Whitestar/Model S/Sedan news.

The main reason I previously thought it was prudent for Tesla to wait was because of the issues with the Roadster. But now that DT 1.5 is working out and Tesla appears ready for their production ramp, that rationale for waiting is removed. Of course maybe Model S isn't ready yet, and that's fine. I can wait. Just that I don't think Tesla needs to wait on showing off the Model S because of the Roadster any more.

Though they don't directly compete, the other players in the green 4/5 door sedan space have shown their designs: Prius, Insight, and now the Volt. I think it's about time we got to see and get excited about what Tesla has to offer. :smile:

[flabby]

whitestar......whitestar.....whitestar.....whitestar. My whitestar chant.:smile:

[AGR]

As anyone heard of, or seen prototypes of the car anywhere?

[graham]

Other than the Dodge Magnum mules from last Spring, no. They have not unveiled the design yet for the Model S, and until they do I would not expect to see anything except mules which looked like other cars.

They have said that they want to unveil the design sometime before the end of the year. The car may be completely designed already and they just haven't unveiled it - or they may be still tweaking the final looks.

Edit to add: Although they have shown sketches of the car to the European press...

[tomsax]

Although they have shown sketches of the car to the European press...

Darryl Siry said that story was totally false. The sketches were made up by someone guessing at what the Model S will look like.

[Cobos]

That's not true. Darryl has said the red sketches the english magazine published are all made up. There are several sources that says they've seen the sketches of the Whitestar. And Espen their scandinavian guy also has said he has seen sketches. So there are some sketches somewhere. How true they will be to the final design I suppose no one knows unless the designs are all done.

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

I thought Daryl said that those were sketches that the magazine had made after they saw TM's sketches but they were not accurate. Am I mistaken ?

[Cobos]

Yes that was what I had heard as well. They were based on actual TM sketches but after what DS said not very true to them I suppose. Even though I wouldn't mind that design or a bit more practical version of that design :)

Cobos

[graham]

Did this article actually publish the "Lotus Esprius" as a picture of the Whitestar? (from earlier in this thread)

Scroll to bottom of article:
Tesla Motors builds cars in Silicon Valley (http://www.itexaminer.com/tesla-motors-builds-cars-in-silicon-valley.aspx)

http://www.itexaminer.com/images/articles/1/2_lotusesprius_244w-166h.jpg

[WarpedOne]

Oh Jesus... :eek:

Edit: at least they haven't renamed that jpeg. It sill says lotus esprius but nevertheless this is supposed to be Journalism?

[Dragonfly]

My money is on something that looks like the Ryuga with a higher roofline and less rake on the windshield.

http://images.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/images/vehicles/upcoming/ryuga/veh_upcoming_ryuga_1.jpg

[vfx]

It's all about associations and mental images. When people hear "station wagon" they picture this:

[IMG]http://zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/image/cars/station-wagon.jpg[/IMG

But they can fly through space (Via a giant MangoBeam)

IMDb Video: Mom and Dad Save the World (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/LINK//video/screenplay/vi2593784089/)

[vfx]

My money is on something that looks like the Ryuga with a higher roofline and less rake on the windshield.

http://images.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/images/vehicles/upcoming/ryuga/veh_upcoming_ryuga_1.jpg

Very nice looking.

I even like "The Joker" front end.

[doug]

http://www.cartype.com/pics/4374/small/chrysler_expresso_93.jpg

j/k

[Cobos]

The scary thing is I kinda like the egg as a design. Not for a luxury sedan at $60 000 mind, but as a quirky EV, sure. But as they say, there's no accounting for taste I guess :)

Cobos

[dpeilow]

Another new Model S = REEV article...

Automotive World - US: Second-generation Tesla Model S sedan to feature range-extending engine (http://www.automotiveworld.com/WVMA/content.asp?contentid=71048)


US: Second-generation Tesla Model S sedan to feature range-extending engine
By Toby Procter
23 September, 2008
Source: Automotive World
The forthcoming Tesla five-seater sedan to be built in a new Californian assembly plant, now referred to by the company as the Model S and formerly as Project WhiteStar, will use lithium ion batteries for a maximum range of 386km and its base price w...


That's all - I'm not going to subscribe!

[doug]

Tesla Motors Seattle Road Show - Tom's Blog (http://www.saxton.org/tom_saxton/2008/09/tesla-motors-seattle-road-show.html)


They have the exterior design and Darryl says it looks great. It is technically a hatchback design, but in a good way, perhaps something along the lines of the Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class. (They in fact have a Model S test mule based on a CLS.) It will have a flat battery pack, as opposed to the Roadster's boxy ESS. Their production goal is 20,000 per year, worldwide.

When pressed about when we would get to see it, they only say it will be "soon." The plan is to show it first to existing Tesla customers, then the press, then the public by spring of 2009.

[Joseph]

"The plan is to show it first to existing Tesla customers, then the press, then the public by spring of 2009."

It better happen by spring 2009. Otherwise, their unveiling of Model S will be a full year later than they initially planned. You can't be an entire year late on the unveling of a car.

[Laurent]

Those tires look way too big for the Roadster. Could they be for the sedan ?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/2897062558_2ac2b639e5.jpg?v=0 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/2897062558_ae873ec8d2_o.jpg)

[deenko]

No, That is just a really small pickup. I think they are for the VP Fleet.

[TEG]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2008/10/Lanborghini-Estoque.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/10/medium_2904970450_362db83fa0_o.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/10/medium_2904970454_5bf461ee52_o.jpg

[TEG]

Hmm, the Lambo could be a hybrid (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/10/lamborghinis-ne.html). More 'Model S' competition...?

http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2008/10/01/01_estoque_34_front_2.jpg
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20081002/estoque01_540x386.JPG

[stopcrazypp]

Hmm, the Lambo could be a hybrid (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/10/lamborghinis-ne.html). More 'Model S' competition...?

The Peugeot RC Hymotion concept unveiled at the same show looks to be more like the competition with it's (edit, I think it's just a hybrid) drivetrain:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/10/PugeotHymotionRC4.jpg

Peugeot RC HYmotion4: Peugeot Debuts RC HYmotion4 Concept For Very Serious Eco-Minded French Businessmen (http://jalopnik.com/5058275/peugeot-debuts-rc-hymotion4-concept-for-very-serious-eco+minded-french-businessmen)

[TEG]

Striking that the Peugeot and Lamborghini look so similar.
And both look a lot like what I expect the Tesla Sedan to look like as well.

Add the Fisker and you start to have a lot of choices in sleek, high end, high style, high efficiency 4 door "fastback" sedans.

[doug]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3216/2944375891_78d6d82f4a.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/2944375891/in/photostream/)
Elon with Franz von Holzhausen

Venture Capitalist Steve Jervetson has seen the Model S design:
The Model S is absolutely gorgeous by the way, and it has more people and luggage space than any sedan... Enabled by having batteries and motors all low down below the wheel line. And with a cool trunk option, it can carry 5 adults and 2 kids. Many Apple analogies come to mind regarding the HCI...(HCI = human computer interface)

[dpeilow]

Venture Capitalist Steve Jervetson has seen the Model S design

Let's hope we do...

[Cobos]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3216/2944375891_78d6d82f4a.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/2944375891/in/photostream/)
Elon with Franz von Holzhausen

Venture Capitalist Steve Jervetson has seen the Model S design:(HCI = human computer interface)

How can he have seen the design, when the Model S supposedly is not finished yet ? Or if it is finished enough to show to somebody why wait all the way to next year to unveil the car?

Cobos

[doug]

How can he have seen the design, when the Model S supposedly is not finished yet ?
Big Day for Elon Musk on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/2944375891/in/photostream/)

He probably saw it on the chief designer's white laptop...

Anyhow, the seating arrangement reminds me of the woody station wagon my dad had in the early '80s.

[flabby]

I was in LA today at the test drive event for the 1.5 tranny and two of the people there said they've seen the sedan. Whether that means the completed car or just the design, i don't know, but one said that it is "beautiful". It was mentioned that the Sedan is 90% complete.

[vfx]

Porsche Panamera
Porsche Panamera: Four-Door Porsche Panamera Spotted In San Francisco (http://jalopnik.com/5065791/four+door-porsche-panamera-spotted-in-san-francisco)

[graham]

The Porsche is a nice looking car. I would not mind if the Model S looked similar.

[Cobos]

I agree in contrast to the Cayenne which looks like someone took a Porsche and tried to make huge monster out of their design. I really dislike the Cayenne. So here's hoping for a Panamera lookalike for the Model S.

Cobos

[doug]

BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_44/b4106080147392.htm)

http://images.businessweek.com/mz/08/44/popup_0844_mz_tesla2.jpg

[graham]

That is truly a peek!

Is there any more to that article?

Edit: Found it!
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_44/b4106080144482.htm?chan=magazine+channel_what%27s+next

Electric Carmaker Tesla Downshifts
Funding gaps have put some of the Silicon Valley carmaker's plans on hold


This article probably belongs in its own post in news.

[TEG]

It lives!

Now we get to wait.

[stopcrazypp]

BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_44/b4106080147392.htm)

http://images.businessweek.com/mz/08/44/popup_0844_mz_tesla2.jpg
Finally a look! Kind of reminds me of the G35/G37 coupe's rear end for some reason.

[Chris H.]

First look at the *SS end of the Model S:

First teaser shot of the Tesla Model S appears! - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/23/first-teaser-shot-of-the-tesla-model-s-appears/#comments)

All the best,

Chris H.

[Chris H.]

The small section of the tail light that is visible looks like it has some Nagare (Mazda) influence...

[TEG]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/10/popup_0844_mz_tesla2-450.jpg

Usually there is some set-back for the tail light lense from the bumper.
Isn't there some risk of breaking the tail light from a low speed parking lot tap?

Maybe they plan to make the tail light out of some new flexible material?

[Chris H.]

Good point... Is it possible to make tail lights out of lexan? :confused:

Lexan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexan)

[TEG]

The small section of the tail light that is visible looks like it has some Nagare (Mazda) influence...

? http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/11/mazda-nagare_la---14.jpg ?

[thejump]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/10/popup_0844_mz_tesla2-450.jpg


Maybe they plan to make the tail light out of some new flexible material?

A new flexible material that no other automaker in the industry is using? Do you really think Tesla has so much money that they can R&D a new already established technology such as tail light cover?

[thejump]

Good point... Is it possible to make tail lights out of lexan? :confused:

Lexan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexan)

They already are made out of Lexan.

[TEG]

Kind of reminds me of the G35/G37 coupe's rear end for some reason.

?http://www.japanesesportcars.com/photos/d/5081-2/2008+infiniti+g37+coupe+_9_.jpg?

[Joseph]

This damn car better be beautiful.:biggrin:

[Joseph]

Maybe he just isn't holding the cover up high enough, but I can't really see any sloping indicating where the trunk should be. I know it's supposed to be a hatchback, but since so many people are saying that it is not a traditional hatchback, but that it still looks very good, I assumed that it would be curved in a sloping manner somewhat resembling a regular sedan.

???

[mt2]

Well, I like the color and it's shiny.

[TEG]

Not much of a comparison, but that ovoid under-pan made me think Murano for some reason.

http://www.automobilebox.com/wp-content/gallery/nissan/Murano_2.jpeg
http://www.nissanforum.com/models/murano/images/2005-Nissan-Murano.jpg

[graham]

This damn car better be beautiful.:biggrin:

Agreed... I am hating the fact that we are not going to see the whole thing until March.

[mt2]

My first thought was Saturn Aura because of the chrome. But I, also, thought of the Murono. It seem to have it's butt in the air like the Murono, assuming that von Holzhausenis on his knees and the vehicle isn't on a lift.

Mixed feelings about the Murono. Not sure why I don't like it, but I don't. I think it's very stylish, but I guess it just doesn't feel "finished" to me. Here's hoping the Model S thrills me much more.

[Cobos]

Yeah I also got a bit wierd image from this due to the height. Either von Holzhausen is on his knees or this car has SUV proportions. And in many ways a SUVs basic design is a station wagon with more ground clearance, so this gives me station wagon/SUV feelers?? Not at all as much slope it should have to even be close to the Merc CLS as was hinted earlier.

Cobos

[Cobos]

If they are already doing teaser shots now I hope they wont string this out until March.

Anyone else notice the carbonfiber bottom end of the rear? Or is that just carbonfiber paint? It would seem a bit silly considering how much carbonfiber they used on the Roadster.

Cobos

[dpeilow]

I did, and wandered how much of it they might have used. That piece is similar to the Roadster's but not quite the same. Thought they might be going for a family look there.

[TEG]

Yeah, I was thinking about Aura too.
You seen the 2012 model visualizations?

http://www.gminsidenews.com/naias/revitalization/Aura%20XR%20Exterior.jpg
http://carwad.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/2010_opel_insignia_2_gallery_image_large.jpg
http://carwad.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/2010_opel_insignia_3_gallery_image_large.jpg

[dpeilow]

If you look at the top left of the picture, you can see it slopes.

Also, if he isn't on his knees, then it is either a *very* tall car or he is a dwarf :smile:.

[graham]

Or perhaps the car is on a lift...

[DDB]

Agreed... I am hating the fact that we are not going to see the whole thing until March.

With all the buzz at Tesla I'll bet a dollar that someone leaks photos before March, much like the Volt.

[TEG]

Opel Insignia:

http://www.diseno-art.com/images/opel%20_insignia.jpg
http://www.diseno-art.com/images/opel_insignia_rear.jpg

http://autoworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/opel-insignia-photo.jpg?w=510&h=340
http://autoworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/opel-insignia-photo_2.jpg?w=510&h=340

[vfx]

I'm sure the Tesla folk will be reading these comments more than some others.

At this point we are not letting our Fisker deposit go. The sharp under edge is very different than the sexy sinue-y curves of the Karma.

Also not much of a fan for the brushed aluminum strip across the back. I know there the Roadster has some semi sharp lines but he only shiny bits are the logos.

Does anyone believe that vH had anything to do with this design? He just got there to late.

[graham]

Does anyone believe that vH had anything to do with this design? He just got there to late.

I believe he got there soon enough to dictate many of the details of the exterior. And as the project continues delays, he will probably continue to tweak it until it is publicly released (and maybe even beyond that like the Roadster was).

[Cobos]

I would actually go so far as being able to at least tweak the Model S was the very reason he signed on at Tesla. Especially at this point in time, not much point in being a cheif designer if you haven't designed any of the two cars your company is making. Someone mentioned in the comments somewhere that the taillights looked like a design by him.

Cobos

[stopcrazypp]

I would actually go so far as being able to at least tweak the Model S was the very reason he signed on at Tesla. Especially at this point in time, not much point in being a cheif designer if you haven't designed any of the two cars your company is making. Someone mentioned in the comments somewhere that the taillights looked like a design by him.

Cobos
I think the Motor Trend article mentioned how taillights looked like a design by him. I didn't mention it, though I noticed it too, because it might be the striped reflections that make it look like that.

[vfx]

I think the Motor Trend article mentioned how taillights looked like a design by him.

Look like a Z to me.

[stopcrazypp]

Look like a Z to me.
You mean the 350Z?
Apparently I'm not the only one who is reminded of the g35/g37/350Z twins by the rear end. See comment here:
First teaser shot of the Tesla Model S appears! - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/23/first-teaser-shot-of-the-tesla-model-s-appears/#c15082039)

Reading the Motor Trend article again it just says he penned the design not that it looks like his previous designs.

[Dragonfly]

The small section of the tail light that is visible looks like it has some Nagare (Mazda) influence...


My money is on something that looks like the Ryuga with a higher roofline and less rake on the windshield.

http://images.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/images/vehicles/upcoming/ryuga/veh_upcoming_ryuga_1.jpg

It would be neat if I was right... I usually never am.
The Ryuga is more of a crossover type vehicle though, maybe the Nagare is a better bet.

[Dragonfly]

Let's see.
http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/popup_0844_mz_tesla2.jpg
S rear

http://z.about.com/d/trucks/1/0/G/t/DSC_0176detroit.jpg
Ryuga rear

http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Mazda_Nagare_Concept_rear.jpg
Nagare rear

http://www.niot.net/niot_570/mazda_hakaze_concept_niot.net%20(19).jpg
Hakaze rear

I'm not seeing anything...

[Chris H.]

Cobos,

I think you are right. The rear diffuser does look like it is carbon fibre, and for sixty grand, I would hope so too.

Dragonfly, I was referring to the design philosophy of Nagare, or "flow", that Mazda has adopted on its recent prototypes, rather than the actual car. You are right that the rear ends of the Ryuga, the Nagare, and the Hakaze do not look like the rear end of the leaked Model S. I was referring only to the tail light. The body work looks more like the Nissan Altima.


http://static.taume.com/image/2008-Nissan-Altima.jpg
2008 Nissan Altima

[mike]

Is this the S?
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/226/teslastd9.jpg


RoadandTrack.com -- New Car Search - New & Future Cars: Tesla Builds a 4-Door (12/2008) (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7201)

[Laurent]

Could be. The color seems to match the one from the teaser shot.

Family resemblance ?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/2846913636_5464c40467.jpg?v=0

[Chris H.]

Mike,

if that's it, it's a nice looking car... Good find!

[Chris H.]

It looks a bit like a Nissan GT-R.... Except for the two extra doors

http://www.autospectator.com/cars/files/images/2009-Nissan-GT-R-30.jpg

[TEG]

I wonder if that is from a real photo, or just an artists best guess.

It does have a bit of 350Z look, doesn't it?

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/226/teslastd9.jpg
http://www.analogstereo.com/images/om/nissan_350z.jpg
http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/07/03-nissan-350z-gt-s-concept/Nissan-350Z-GT-S-Concept-3-lg.jpg

[Chris H.]

This was Mike's find, but I thought it deserved a thread of it's own...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/2008/W43/102320081443041416.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:standardgallerypop%28667,1%29;)

[Chris H.]

I wonder if that is from a real photo, or just an artists best guess.

It does have a bit of 350Z look, doesn't it?




TEG,

you're right, that A pillar & roof line are very 350Z-ish. :biggrin: I was wondering the same thing about CGI or paint shop. If it is an "artist's impression", then they did a very good job...

[TEG]

Another comparison... To the Porsche Panamera...
http://chsc.ie/uploads/images/porsche_panamera.jpg

[Chris H.]

Those wheels are a very tight fit with the wheel arches (on the Model S). Wouldn't want to hit a pothole at high speed.

[Chris H.]

Big wheels, and wide too. That's got to increase rolling resistance...

[mike]

FYI - I messaged 'teslamotors' on twitter to see if this was a pic of the Model S and they replied "no, it's just their best guess" -- I assume this means that this rendering was done by Road and Track.

- Mike

[doug]

I wonder if that is from a real photo, or just an artists best guess.

It does have a bit of 350Z look, doesn't it?
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/226/teslastd9.jpg
The picture is certainly a photoshop creation. No question about that. The real issue is whether or not it's representative.

I was thinking it looked like the 350Z as well.

[TEG]

..."no, it's just their best guess"...
Argh... More teasing.

[Chris H.]

If the Model S ended up looking something like that R&T photoshop image, I wouldn't mind at all. I think it looks pretty good.

[mike]

If the Model S ended up looking something like that R&T photoshop image, I wouldn't mind at all. I think it looks pretty good.

Agreed, if this is what the production Model S looks like and it meets current bounced around specs at ~60K then it could be one hell of a product.
I just hope Tesla stays afloat and committed to producing this vehicle, but speculation is for another thread. :wink:

- Mike

[Cobos]

Though if the body style is something like that I figure calling it a 5 person car is a bit of a stretch. They've also earlier used more Limo like cars for comparison that all have in common a very useful back seat. I love the design of this one, but as a "family" car it must be horrible. Imagine navigating a screaming kid into a kid seat in that backseat :) This would be a better Bluestar IMHO as this is too small for at least what I would have envisioned.

Cobos

[Laurent]

if this is what the production Model S looks like
It is not Model S, according to a Tesla employee I talked to who's seen the actual car. He said that Model S was much more elegant, about the size of a BMW 5 series.

[dpeilow]

R&T describes it as a "photo-illustration", i.e. Photoshop.

There is a more honest description in the VW Roadster text on the next page (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7123).


If you can believe what you read on the Internet, Volkswagen will have a new mid-engine sports-car concept on display at the Los Angeles auto show this November — looking very similar to the photo-illustration seen here, we believe

[vfx]

Prototypes, artist concepts, styling exersizes always have bigger wheels than possible. It just makes them look better without all that dead space around the rubber.

[TEG]

I actually really like that R&T mock-up.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/2008/W43/102320081443041416.jpg
Along with the previously mentioned Nissan Z resemblance, the new Accord reminds me a bit of that design.
http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/images1/2009-honda-accord-concept.jpg

[TEG]

But, I suspect Tesla is going for more European elegance and less Japanese "boy racer" style...
http://www.lapcr.com/Mercedes%20CLS%20Class.jpg

[Kevin Harney]

There has to be a third row seat in there guys.... Elon said it holds five adults and 2 kids. I am sure it is a small rumble seat type thing .... but you need an opening to get into it.

[doug]

There has to be a third row seat in there guys.... Elon said it holds five adults and 2 kids. I am sure it is a small rumble seat type thing .... but you need an opening to get into it.

I'm sure that third row is just a couple rear facing kid seats (http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/injury/files/Educational_Ills/belt_parts/RF_third_row_stationWagon.jpg), just like in the old station wagons. You get to it though the hatchback.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Mercury/10532/2000.mercury.sable.25995-E.jpghttp://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Mercury/10532/2000.mercury.sable.7733-E.jpg



At least the kids shouldn't have to worry about this (http://new.volvocars.com/ownersdocs/2005/2005_V70/05v70_01b.htm) one:


http://new.volvocars.com/ownersdocs/2005/2005_V70/IMAGES/pg11b.jpg
WARNING!
The exhaust pipe will still be hot when the engine is turned off. Take care
that children do not burn themselves when they get into or out of the car.

[graham]

Seats like this definitely bring back memories of childhood!

I wonder how significantly the range will drop with 5 adults and two kids in the car.

[graham]

Sigh... Sci-Fi's Dvice just picked up the Road and Track photoshop. Although they are reporting it as fact. Lame.

I wonder how many other sites are going to think the R&T picture is real?

DVICE: First Peek: Tesla Model S, the all-electric 4-door sedan (http://dvice.com/archives/2008/10/first_peek_tesl.php)

[TEG]

It keeps getting copied, modified, cropped, and shrunk...

R&T (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7201):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/2008/W43/102320081443041416.jpg

The "Tesla Model S" label is missing from the "dvice.com (http://dvice.com/archives/2008/10/first_peek_tesl.php)" version.
http://dvice.com/pics/tesla_model_s.jpg



Ubergizmo (http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/10/tesla_4door_model_s_sports_sedan.html) has a tiny "u" in the lower right:
http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2008/10/telsamodels.jpg

Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/24/teslas-4-door-all-electric-model-s-sports-sedan-gets-pictured/):
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/10/10-25-08-tesla_model_s.jpg

Notice the differences in the streaks in the sky where the label was removed.

[graham]

They Photoshopped the Photoshop!?

[dpeilow]

Looks like it was "Ubergizmo" that did the photoshopping.

Tesla Sedan (http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/10/tesla_4door_model_s_sports_sedan.html)

[graham]

Yes, and it looks like Ubergizmo did not understand that the R&T was a mock-up either. So I guess Dvice is slightly off the hook. They were reporting from an unreliable source.

[TEG]

R&T article (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7201) says "Photo Illustration by Larson".

'Larson' has done other photo illustrations that take some creative liberties ("guesswork") compared to the actual vehicle:

Larson GT-R:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/2007/Q1/1222007192320.jpg
Real GT-R:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/2007/W42/10172007164540.jpg
(very close - although those intakes under the headlights are missing)