View Full Version : Toyota Says: electric cars not practical
tonybelding
05-21-2007, 10:03 AM
The article is from msnbc:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18615741/
The really eye-opening quote is on the second page, where we find this:
Takimoto said Toyota had been approached by both parties as well as many other battery makers, but dismissed their products as "unusable" due to their low energy density.
"Our battery is still superior," he said. He added that plug-in hybrids, which can be recharged through an electric socket, were still years away from practical application and pure electric vehicles even further out because even with a trunk full of rechargeable batteries, they would have a cruising range of just 60 km (37 miles).
Why is it that Toyota, with their "superior" batteries, can only make an electric car go 37 miles, while Tesla are getting over 200 miles out of theirs?* And isn't 37 miles range often achieved even by homebrew conversions of gasoline cars using DC motors and common lead-acid batteries?
Interesting that Toyota is taking the same stance as GM when it comes to plug-ins and EV range. Is this a conspiracy or is it the truth?
RokketRide
05-22-2007, 08:31 AM
Interesting that Toyota is taking the same stance as GM when it comes to plug-ins and EV range. Is this a conspiracy or is it the truth?
Well its certainly Toyota's truth. Gotta protect the bottom line by propping up your current product.
As it's been said, If electrics are a better car, then everything else they are selling you is wrong.
Tesla2Go
05-22-2007, 10:33 AM
Would be interesting to see the numbers on how much a car company makes by selling the car, and how much they make selling parts for that car.....Wonder what the ratio is? So for them, ofcourse electric cars are at least 10 years away, they can't sell you 2000 different parts just to keep it running.
... how much a car company makes by selling the car, and how much they make selling parts for that car.....Wonder what the ratio is?
I think in the movie WKtEC they mention that 40% of the total profit from a car's life cycle comes from parts.
Again, I think that is what was said.
--Update--
Ok, I watched the film again last night* and that 40% number is not in there so I don't know where that came from. The film does mention the brake biz alone is more than a billion dollar industry and the mechanic says thanks to regen braking he never serviced brakes on an EV1.
*I'm off to the ARB meeting tomorrow so I thought it would be good to watch the last time they met in April 2003. The shenanigans they pulled at that meeting are reprehensible! AT this point they are aleady placing full EVs low on the list.
Ok, I watched the film again last night* and that 40% number is not in there so I don't know where that came from
Talked to Chris the Director. The 40% profit is what the dealer makes yearly off parts.
Toyota Builds Thicket of Patents Around Hybrid To Block Competitors
Toyota Builds Thicket of Patents Around Hybrid To Block Competitors - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124640553503576637.html)
Toyota's goal: to make it difficult for other auto makers to develop their own hybrids without seeking licensing from Toyota, as Ford Motor Co. already did to make its Escape hybrid and Nissan Motor Co. has for its Altima hybrid.
This one is interesting. The New York Times questions wheather Toyota is missing the "EV bus". Kind of a flop to the other side of view
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/20/business/energy-environment/20electric.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1250751610-0CwbsQk9GCQD2zNHAkyhww
TOKYO — Despite Toyota’s image as the world’s greenest automaker, the company that brought us the Prius — totem of the environmentally conscious — has fallen behind in the race for the all-electric car.
dpeilow
08-20-2009, 01:40 AM
“At first, electric cars will all be small, making profit margins small also,” said Maho Inoue, an automobile analyst at the Daiwa Institute of Research, a research group in Tokyo.
Uhh - I guess they haven't read anything about the Model S...
BBHighway
08-20-2009, 03:57 AM
Yes, that RAV4EV was a tiny little thing, seating only 5 passengers and a good amount of cargo. Same for that Ranger EV.
Serge
08-20-2009, 11:07 AM
This one is interesting. The New York Times questions whether Toyota is missing the "EV bus".
I find the closing paragraphs particularly ominous.
And more often than not in the history of innovation, a change in the dominant technology means a change in the market leader.
“Electric cars are a disruptive technology, and Toyota knows that,” Mr. Shimizu said. “I wouldn’t say Toyota is killing the electric vehicle. Perhaps Toyota is scared.”
For their sake, I hope the current public stance is due to desire to milk the Prius investment to a maximum.
Toyota would like to profit all it can from the current technology before shifting to a new one, analysts say, especially because the company is facing a second down year after a loss last year of about $4.4 billion.
I really hope they have something secret in the works.
James
08-20-2009, 04:10 PM
Uhh - I guess they haven't read anything about the Model S...
That is what I love about Tesla. They get it. The electric vehicle does not have to be small and slow. It can be a Sports car, it can be a high end luxury car.
All of these new EVs, that the big auto companies are developing, seem to be small and modest. It fits too much of the stereotype of what an EV is "supposed" to be.
Tesla is going to own the high end market for the first few years of the EV revolution.
I really hope they have something secret in the works.
I suspect they do...
efusco
08-20-2009, 07:56 PM
Then today Toyota has an announcement that they've achieved a 10-fold improvement in Li battery technology:
Toyota Said to Achieve 10-Fold Lithium-ion Battery Breakthrough - AllCarsElectric.com (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1034384_toyota-said-to-achieve-10-fold-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough)
Toyota may be slow to actually adopt lithium-ion batteries into its cars, but it appears the company may be ahead of the pack when it come to basic scientific development.
A report out of the Nikkei in Japan states that Toyota achieved the ability to fabricate single crystals of cobalt-oxide for use in lithium ion cells.
A lithium-ion battery stores energy by moving charged lithium ions through a matrix consisting of a carbon graphite anode and various different molecular cathodes. In Toyota's case cobalt oxide is the cathode, but in present technology exists as a large crystalline molecular structure.
In the breakthrough, by creating single crystals, much less graphite is needed thereby making room for more energy storing lithium.
Over the next 10 years Toyota engineers hope to completely eliminate the carbon altogether therefore effectively creating a battery that can hold 10 times the energy in the same mass.
flabby
08-21-2009, 12:32 PM
Toyota may be slow to actually adopt lithium-ion batteries into its cars, but it appears the company may be ahead of the pack when it come to basic scientific development.
I doesn't sound like they're ahead of the pack to me. From an autoblog green quote:
"Toyota says the technology needs at least a decade to come to fruition." (Toyota, University of Tohoku improve lithium-ion batteries ten-fold (in the lab) — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/20/toyota-university-of-tohoku-improve-lithium-ion-batteries-ten-f/))
A lot can happen with technology in ("at least") 10 years. And who really knows what other companies are working on right now.
Exclusive: Toyota Explains Its Position on Electric Cars | Hybrid Cars (http://www.hybridcars.com/news/exclusive-toyota-explains-position-electric-cars-26031.html)
...“We’re pacing ourselves in a way that we think that we can be competitive in a few years time for a market that makes sense for both us and the customer.” Jana Hartline, Toyota’s environmental communication manager, added, “Our outlook has never been to be the first to market. We want to be the best to market.”...
...While GM, Ford, and Nissan—and newcomers like Tesla, Fisker, and Coda—busily generate buzz for their grid-connected vehicles, Toyota has been nearly silent about electric cars...
...“If we had a technology that was ready today—if we had the battery at a performance and quality and durability and price point that we could put into a car and mass manufacture it for some market and both sustain our business and provide value to the customer—we’d do it,” said {Doug} Coleman. “We’re trying to get to that point in the future.”...
domenick
08-24-2009, 08:09 PM
Funny then that Daihatsu, who they own a 51 percet share in is not only planning on making electric cars (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/18/daihatsu-wants-to-make-strike-hybrids-strike-electric-cars/), but going to Toyota for a little integration knowhow. Notice one of the commenters left links to an electric Copen the company did a year or two ago.
MONDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2009
Toyota/Fuji Heavy EV Rumors
Plugs and Cars (http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com/)
Toyota is knocking plug-in cars at CARB and in the press and touting impossible to deliver near-term hydrogen fuel cell commercialization. But it may have a Plan B. "Toyota Motor Corp is considering working with affiliate Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd to develop its electric vehicles," according to Mainichi newspaper as reported by Reuters.
Toyota attempting to ‘green’ the sports car - Autos- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33199292/ns/business-autos/from/ET)
"Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, is promising an electric vehicle by 2012.
It trails some other automakers, including Japanese rival Nissan Motor Co., which plans to start selling an electric car called Leaf next year.
Yasuo Kajino, a Toyota manager, said the FT-EV II electric vehicle, a concept model to be unveiled at the Tokyo show, isn't the 2012 model and won't be available for consumers for some years after that.
Toyota has led the world in hybrids with the Prius, now in its third-generation since its 1997 debut. The Prius is the top-selling gas-electric hybrid, racking up more than 1.4 million vehicles in global sales so far.
The automaker has long said it believes hybrids are a more practical green car solution because of costs and the lack of recharging stations for electric cars. But it has always had electric car technology. Hybrids are part electric vehicles.
Toyota has leased in small numbers to rental customers an electric version of the RAV-4 sport utility vehicle in the U.S. since 1997. It became available to regular consumers in 2003. Production was discontinued that same year, partly because only about 300 were sold.
ABG too
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/06/tokyo-preview-toyota-ft-ev-ii-brings-the-tiny/
Cue the jig music
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/business/global/21toyota.html
malcolm
10-22-2009, 07:12 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/business/global/21toyota.html
But Toyota is increasingly looking back as rivals play catch-up in hybrid technology — and may soon be racing to catch up to rivals that are taking the leap to all-electric vehicles.
:biggrin:
Toyota to release solar charger for electric vehicles - PhysOrg.com (http://www.physorg.com/news175848652.html)
Toyota to release solar charger for electric vehicles
October 27th, 2009 by Lin Edwards
Toyota to release solar charger for electric vehicles
(PhysOrg.com) -- Toyota is developing a solar charging station for electric
cars and plug-in hybrids, making a green technology even greener. It has
also designed a battery charger for mounting inside an electric vehicle or
plug-in hybrid to recharge the storage batteries.
Toyota Industries Corporation's announcement follows similar press releases
in August by Nissan Motor Co Ltd and Showa Shell Sekiyu KK.
Toyota's solar charging station will consist of solar cells capable of
generating 100/200V of electricity. The station includes storage batteries
to store the electricity generated until it is required to recharge
electric vehicles. The station also has a communication facility to
authenticate users' identification information, and to communicate the
amount of charge and other data to a remote data center. The communication
system is expected to use LANs and Mobile networks.
Earlier this year Toyota Industries unveiled a new public charging station
for electric vehicles, which went on sale a few months ago at a cost of
450,000 Yen (around 4,600USD). Both the earlier public charging station and
the new solar charging system were developed in collaboration with Nitto
Kogyo Corporation.
A variety of charging station options is needed to address the potential
range limitations of electric vehicles, and a significant network of
charging stations will need to be deployed to make electric vehicles viable
for longer distance travel. Virtually all major car manufacturers are
planning to launch electric or plug-in hybrid cars starting next year.
Charging stations for electric cars are gradually becoming more widespread.
In the UK the Department of Transport estimates there will be about two
million electric vehicles by 2020. In the US, SolarCity and Rabbobank have
created a partnership to provide free electric charging for electric
vehicles traveling between San Francisco and Los Angeles along Highway 101.
SolarCity has also bought SolSource Energy, which is in the business of
installing charging stations for electric cars.
Toyota made the announcement and exhibited the charging station and battery
charger at the 2009 Tokyo Motor Show being held from October 23 to November
4, 2009 at Makuhari Messe, in Chiba City, Japan. The solar charger is
scheduled for release late next year or in 2011 at a price of several
hundred thousand Yen.
Via: TechOn (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20091026/176889/)
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20091026/176889/1.JPG
Serge
10-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Toyota to release solar charger for electric vehicles - PhysOrg.com (http://www.physorg.com/news175848652.html)
I think it's time to rename the thread to "Toyota Says: electric cars not practical (unless Toyota makes them so)"
domenick
10-31-2009, 10:14 AM
I think it's time to rename the thread to "Toyota Says: electric cars not practical (unless Toyota makes them so)"
Or perhaps, " Toyota's Electric Cars Aren't Practical".
Every electric concept they've made recently doesn't come close to the Rav4 they made years ago. Still can't help but think they're keeping the good stuff in the back to bring it out when they have to.
Toyota to introduce BEV in 2012...
Green Fuels Forecast (http://greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=763)
(Detroit, Nov. 2, 2009) Speaking at a media luncheon in Detroit today, Bob Carter, group vice president and general manager of Toyota confirmed that the automaker would launch a production electric vehicle in 2012. Toyota has shown two different BEV concepts in the past year, both of which were small urban commuter cars.
(familiar author)
dpeilow
11-04-2009, 02:56 PM
Toyota to launch battery electric vehicle in 2012, fuel cell in 2015 — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/03/toyota-to-launch-battery-electric-vehicle-in-2012-fuel-cell-in/)
dpeilow
11-21-2009, 10:41 AM
Toyota starts discussions on who will get PHEV Priuses — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/20/toyota-starts-discussions-on-who-will-get-phev-priuses/)
5 miles?!? It was previously 12, but that wasn't linked to a speed.
23ish miles and lease only in 2011
Toyota to sell plug-in hybrids (http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/TechandScience/Story/STIStory_466426.html)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE5BD11520091214
http://uk.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20091214&t=2&i=31193746&w=450&r=2009-12-14T134953Z_01_BTRE5BD12FA00_RTROPTP_0_TOYOTA-PLUGIN-HYBRID
http://uk.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20091214&t=2&i=31193747&w=450&r=2009-12-14T134953Z_01_BTRE5BD12FB00_RTROPTP_0_TOYOTA-PLUGIN-HYBRID
http://uk.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20091214&t=2&i=31193745&w=450&r=2009-12-14T134953Z_01_BTRE5BD12F900_RTROPTP_0_TOYOTA-PLUGIN-HYBRID
kicking and screaming
Toyota is now "scrambling" :biggrin:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/business/global/15toyota.html?_r=1&emc=eta1
ChargeIt!
12-14-2009, 10:10 AM
23ish miles and lease only in 2011
kicking and screaming
km not miles !
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/business/global/15toyota.html?_r=1&emc=eta1
...Executives point to a number of constraints for electric vehicles: short range and feeble horsepower...
Um, Roadster owners probably scoff at that sort of remark. Anyways, off the line torque rules over horsepower most of the time.
dpeilow
12-15-2009, 01:13 AM
Toyota launches plug-in hybrid, poised to continue green car dominance | VentureBeat (http://green.venturebeat.com/2009/12/14/toyota-launches-plug-in-hybrid-poised-to-continue-green-car-dominance/)
The company says it will first lease the vehicles to consumers in Strasbourg, France as a pilot group. Beginning this month, about 100 vehicles will be leased there. The city was chosen because it has more than 300 electric vehicle charging stations. Nowhere in the U.S. has equivalent infrastructure despite the efforts of companies like Better Place and Coulomb Technologies.
Before general release, Toyota says it will lease 600 of its Prius PHEVs, 150 of which will be in the U.S. The Toyota brand alone could be enough for the traditional automaker to continue its domination of the green car market, despite near-term releases of the Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf.
Lease, lease, lease...
dpeilow
01-12-2010, 04:48 PM
Toyota accelerates next-generation battery R&D | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60B43620100112)
Back to the thread title:
Toyota Executive Sees Limits to Electric Cars - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/toyota-executive-sees-limits-to-electric-cars/?emc=eta1)
But Mr. Saga harbors considerable doubt about the current prospects for long-distance battery-only cars. He said (through a translator) that limited range means that E.V.’s work best as “very small commuter-type vehicles” for use in major metropolitan areas (he used Europe and Japan as examples). Asked if longer-range E.V.’s were possible with current technology, he said that could happen only “if we forget about battery life and if we forget about the cost incurred for replacement of those batteries.”
Cake and eat it too
dpeilow
01-23-2010, 01:13 AM
Reinert: Toyota won't sell upcoming EV; lease or car-sharing options available instead - Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/22/reinert-toyota-wont-sell-upcoming-ev-lease-or-car-sharing-opt/)
I love this thread! :smile:
Toyota president: We are determined to lead the electric-drive segment
(http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/12/toyota-president-we-are-determined-to-lead-the-electric-drive-s/)
Toyota president, Akio Toyoda, addressed the company's U.S. dealers at an annual conference in Las Vegas and his vision for the automaker came through loud and clear: he intends to run a company that dominates the electric-drive segment.
EVNow
10-13-2010, 09:16 PM
...he intends to run a company that dominates the electric-drive segment.
What ? He intends to topple Ghosn and take over Nissan ?!