Where are the charging stations? [Archive] - Tesla Motors Club

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pninen

04-14-2009, 07:59 PM

mt2

04-14-2009, 08:59 PM

Has someone started a project to map out locations of Tesla charging stations yet?

If I want to take a long drive, I need to know where I can get a charge along the way.

A few years ago the EV1 owners got really good at this. They convinced lots of places to install chargers, and they mapped out the locations and kept the maps up-to-date so folks could plan.
Not to worry. The Aptera nav system already does this and Tesla has already stated theirs will as well. (Although Tesla somehow believes they will be first).

meloccom

04-14-2009, 09:58 PM

Has someone started a project to map out locations of Tesla charging stations yet?

If I want to take a long drive, I need to know where I can get a charge along the way.

A few years ago the EV1 owners got really good at this. They convinced lots of places to install chargers, and they mapped out the locations and kept the maps up-to-date so folks could plan.

Didn't Hyatt Hotels sign an agreement with Tesla.
I'm pretty sure the Hyatt in SFO and another further out were going to allow charging.

pninen

04-14-2009, 10:07 PM

Didn't Hyatt Hotels sign an agreement with Tesla.
I'm pretty sure the Hyatt in SFO and another further out were going to allow charging.

Yea. I found several stories that said Hyatt was gonna install chargers in THREE hotels. Three whole hotels! None of them are even within driving range of my home! This is not helpful. If they were gonna install in 500 hotels, that might be useful. Then if a few other folks did the same thing, say a major gas station chain, a major fast food chain, ...

We need some real information. Plans. Tesla is silent on this issue. Without guidance we can only assume that we won't be able to get a charge, which makes the Tesla vehicle a short-range-only-and-forever gizmo.

Tesla needs to stop the mystery, and tell us what is planned.

I want to see plans that give me hope that I will be able to drive from one end of California to the other, or perhaps from San Diego to Las Vegas, or San Diego to Tucson. Then I will be impressed.

graham

04-15-2009, 07:58 AM

Tesla needs to stop the mystery, and tell us what is planned.

I want to see plans that give me hope that I will be able to drive from one end of California to the other, or perhaps from San Diego to Las Vegas, or San Diego to Tucson. Then I will be impressed.

I don't think there is any mystery - I don't think there are any concrete plans at this point.

I think anyone who buys an electric car today planning for it to be a road-tripping car will be up for disappointment. Electric cars are pretty much still for people who have other means of transportation for inter-city travel.

The Roadster was never really designed to be able to quick charge. The Model S has some theoretical technology to allow for it, but I would not expect Tesla to announce anything about quick charge/battery swap specifics until it is closer to production.

EVnut

04-15-2009, 08:59 AM

Several of us spend untold volunteer hours to not only get chargers installed, but we also maintain them, and keep track of their location and operational status. These are all the chargers known in the US. And anything that is an AVCON will work with the Tesla (with a small adapter box).
EV Charger News - Home (http://evchargernews.com/)
Any new Tesla (or other) chargers will be added to this list. The fact is, all new chargers will work with the tesla and all other new EVs, so eventually there won't be all these different options.

The latest is an interactive map:
EVChargerMaps (http://www.evchargermaps.com/)
Check in the lower left corner to choose area and type of charger.

Kevin Harney

04-15-2009, 09:04 AM

EEEE gads. There are a lot more than I thought but only 2 on the east coast and one is not working. How do we start fixing that around here? what are the next steps?

Young

04-15-2009, 09:25 AM

vfx

04-15-2009, 10:44 AM

The charging station network is all grassroots movement from owners at this point.

The internet and communications in general are much better than the EV1 days. Tools like on-board WiFi NAV-GPS filled with all the current info about available chargers will be valuable to program a day trip to include time driving, stops at charge points and time charging. Even charging while waiting for reported traffic jams to die down.

It's lightyears away from a glovebox full of folded maps printed by Oil conglomerates. You would get them free when you bought gasoline (and sometimes drinking glasses) at a filling station. Then when you were lost you could find the next place to fill up. How quaint.

BTW there are 11 percent less gasoline stations now that 10 years ago. It may be that Gasoline (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123957686061311925.html) peaked last year.

Tesla's 440V DC charger will have to be something that Tesla does or farms out to a service vendor. Those are some serious charge stations.

vfx

04-15-2009, 11:39 AM

The Hyatt chargers deal came about when the owner Nicholas Pritzker (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/54/richlist07_Nicholas-Pritzker-II_S26A.html) became an investor (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:zSFWvluuGJoJ:www.evworld.com/news.cfm%3Fnewsid%3D20707+hot+electric+sports+car+to+keep+the+planet+cool+"ev+world"&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) and Sig 100 (Founder?) and Roadster buyer (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=24767&seenIt=1).

At this point Tesla is waiting for their exterior charger to be approved ---and possibly the long awaited J1772 connector.

EVnut

04-15-2009, 12:45 PM

EEEE gads. There are a lot more than I thought but only 2 on the east coast and one is not working. How do we start fixing that around here? what are the next steps?
Start screaming and yelling. It may not work, but it can make you feel MUCH better. This all happens on the West coast first because of our historical ability to set air quality standards higher than the fed (we had a bit of an issue with that during the last administration, but we seem to be back on track now!). So also figure out how to follow CA's lead in this, or work for even HIGHER standards in your state.

Do not forget to mention the emergency charger list. EV owners exchange their addresses and allow others to use their chargers. Tesla owners can join the list.
Great point. It will be much easier to offer power to EVs when they're all conductive and just need an outlet.

The charging station network is all grassroots movement from owners at this point.
Well, not exactly. Keeping track of them and maintaining them today certainly is. But the initial installation wasn't. Plenty of public money was used to install them.

BTW there are 11 percent less gasoline stations now that 10 years ago. It may be that Gasoline (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123957686061311925.html) peaked last year.
Very interesting statistic!

Tesla's 440V DC charger will have to be something that Tesla does or farms out to a service vendor. Those are some serious charge stations.
There are many ways to charge a Tesla. We just need the proper connector or adapter. They don't all have to be high-zoot 440 VDC units to be useful!

The Hyatt chargers deal came about...
There were a few (couple?) installed to great fan-fare. And as far as I know, they were subsequently all removed after the camera crews packed up. Not really sure what the deal is today.

At this point Tesla is waiting for their exterior charger to be approved ---and possibly the long awaited J1772 connector.
Is are all EV makers... and charger makers, yup.

graham

04-15-2009, 02:26 PM

Do not forget to mention the emergency charger list. EV owners exchange their addresses and allow others to use their chargers. Tesla owners can join the list.

For those who are owners, there are some informal versions of this linked on the private Owner's Forum at teslamotors.com.

vfx

04-15-2009, 07:25 PM

Start screaming and yelling.

Well, not exactly. Keeping track of them and maintaining them today certainly is. But the initial installation wasn't. Plenty of public money was used to install them.

There are many ways to charge a Tesla. We just need the proper connector or adapter. They don't all have to be high-zoot 440 VDC units to be useful!

D,

It's the great unknown, Who do we scream at? You know that these things would be dusty corroded relics out of a "decaying planet" movie and would be all yanked out by now if not for the grass roots people using them.

Of course they were installed with government money but which branch? Are they maintained by local municipalities? State? Fed? Power companies? Here's an idea for the charger network map. Each charger is notated by a number or letter that refers to a legend at the bottom. The characters relate to the government or whatever organization that is in charge of maintaining that charger. Include a phone number and a contact person. Maybe even the number of the guy (or gal) that actually wrenches the chargers.

Obviously an EV driver will be highly motivated to call at the moment they find a dead charger and will read the "who to call" number that is sometimes stuck on it, but having the number on the map will be good so anyone can sit down and phone-bank all the broken ones at in one shot. This could be done in rotation by EV club members.

pninen

04-16-2009, 11:53 AM

Several of us spend untold volunteer hours to not only get chargers installed, but we also maintain them, and keep track of their location and operational status. These are all the chargers known in the US. And anything that is an AVCON will work with the Tesla (with a small adapter box).
EV Charger News - Home (http://evchargernews.com/)

Where can I learn what the heck "AVCON" means, and what this adapter box is?

I found that web site, and several others, during my search a few days ago, but it wasn't clear to me what the various acronyms for types of charger mean. No explanation found.

I really WANT to believe, but its pretty tough right now.

I'd be happy to buy a Tesla for MOSTLY local driving, but I would like to believe that it is possible to take a longer drive. Nothing found yet gives me any ability to have such a belief. :-(

pninen

04-16-2009, 12:02 PM

There are many ways to charge a Tesla. We just need the proper connector or adapter. They don't all have to be high-zoot 440 VDC units to be useful!

Your statement misses and obscures the issue. There are many ways to chage a Tesla, but most of them are not useful on a trip.

If I'm on a long trip, I need a charging station that can charge reasonably quickly, because I don't want to stop for 12 hours, or 4 hours, etc. I'd like to stop for maybe 45 minutes while I eat lunch. Therefore, it has to be one of the larger (higher power) charging stations.

Not necessary to get a full charge... Heck I wouldn't normally have discharged the thing all the way to get there -- not a safe behavior.

So I need big charging stations, spaced close enough so that I can have a very good chance of getting to the next one in the general direction I'm going if I find this one is blocked or inoperable. (Sorta like pilots planning alternate landing opportunities.)

Seems to me this requires 200 or so charging stations along the major freeways in California just to make it possible (not even easy) to take a long trip. So what do I see? No plans. Silly press releases about some hotel chain gonna install three.

I'll get 'em installed at my company. Can probably make this happen in at least 2 California cities. One person working for the company already took delivery of his Tesla roadster.

I have no patience.

Kevin Harney

04-16-2009, 01:06 PM

pninen,

We can tell you have no patience. Based on what you said I think it is pretty safe to say that the Roadster is NOT for you.

vfx

04-16-2009, 01:33 PM

I think we should all chip in and get him a Roadster. If Pninen likes it then everyone will.

If he doesn't then we will take it away.

Further incentive and aversion techniques will also be incorporated. :smile:

pninen

04-16-2009, 03:21 PM

pninen,
We can tell you have no patience. Based on what you said I think it is pretty safe to say that the Roadster is NOT for you.

Your answer is a classic "love it or leave it" kinda response. Seems a shame you don't have a more open minde about the practicalities. These things won't just pop up without anybody workin' on them.

AnOutsider

04-16-2009, 03:44 PM

Your answer is a classic "love it or leave it" kinda response. Seems a shame you don't have a more open minde about the practicalities. These things won't just pop up without anybody workin' on them.

I don't think anyone doubts that fact... but I think they may have been put off with what might equate to ranting and raving over an issue that we here have no control over.

One of Fisker's reasons for a plugin hybrid is because the gasoline infrastructure is already there... it's going to be a fairly large undertaking to get an electric infrastructure in place. Baby steps... and patience (which you stated you don't have... hence him saying it's not for you)

graham

04-16-2009, 03:47 PM

If I'm on a long trip, I need a charging station that can charge reasonably quickly, because I don't want to stop for 12 hours, or 4 hours, etc. I'd like to stop for maybe 45 minutes while I eat lunch. Therefore, it has to be one of the larger (higher power) charging stations.

For the most part today, if you want a car for inter-city travel, owning an EV as your only car is not for you. I know of people who have traveled from San Francisco to LA in a Roadster - it is possible - but not nearly as convenient as a gas car today.

Today you either still need a second car (gas powered) for the occasional trip, or plan to rent a car when that happens (or fly, or train or something).

Tesla has announced some possibilities for the Model S to allow for quicker charges - but the Model S is far enough out that no one is building that infrastructure yet, and likely won't for a few years.

EVs are not for yet for everyone. Pretty much the pre-requisites for an EV today are:
1) own your own house with a garage you can use to charge
2) own more than one car
3) have the means and be willing to buy an expensive car

3 usually implies 1 and 2. There are the uber-EV nuts here which will tell you you don't need #2, or ways to get around #1 but for the majority, you need these 3 things.

Eventually, we will get to the point where
a) there are enough EV early adopters that a charging infrastructure will exist because there will be demand enough to make it economically viable,
b) the cost will come down which will compound a)
c) the range will go up reducing the need for a),
and d) people will be comfortable enough with EVs to realize that they do not need their EV to do everything (much like I don't need my Mercedes to be able to drive me to Hawaii...). That day is not today.

pninen

04-16-2009, 04:20 PM

Eventually, we will get to the point where
a) there are enough EV early adopters that a charging infrastructure will exist because there will be demand enough to make it economically viable,

When? 2012?

I'm trying to figure if I should order a model-S.

I was kinda hoping that the volume of roadsters hitting the streets before the model-S would drive the appearance of charging stations. So far that isn't happening.

There are many things in the way. The present roadster charges slowly, making charging stations along the highways not very useful. Hence, perhaps the slow-charging-roadster doesn't drive the installation of the charging stations that the model-S user would like to see.

My theory is that faster charging will come to the roadster too, but the delay will have a serious impact on the development of the charging infrastructure.

Of course this isn't the only problem delaying the charging infrastructure... Lack of standards (or equivalently too many standards), etc.

I understand the 2-car thing well. My 2nd car is presently a Segway. I use the Segway for the 7 mile commute to work whenever its sunny and I don't need to take a side-trip during the day.

AnOutsider

04-16-2009, 04:33 PM

Of course this isn't the only problem delaying the charging infrastructure... Lack of standards (or equivalently too many standards), etc.

I think until things are standardized (which a big company like GM with the volt might help put in place), most people will be sticking to at-home charging and known charge points.

graham

04-16-2009, 04:34 PM

When? 2012?

I'm trying to figure if I should order a model-S.

Doubtful it will happen fast enough for you. The Roadster doesn't ship in high enough volume to really drive an infrastructure in earnest. At least the type that you are wanting. The Roadster also does not yet have the quick-charging capability that the Model S does, and it is doubtful it will gain that capability all that much sooner if it does.

So it will be the volume of the Model S that will drive this. Model S won't be in volume until at least 2012, but I am betting not until 2013 or 2014 to get to the volumes that you get what you want. If you want to hedge your bets and have the funds, put down a $5000 deposit now and plan on pulling it if the world is not to your liking by the time your car comes due. If you don't have the funds to make that bet, get something else now which better suits your needs.

EVnut

04-16-2009, 10:23 PM

D,

It's the great unknown, Who do we scream at?
If it makes you feel better, you can scream at me. Everybody else does. ;)

You know that these things would be dusty corroded relics out of a "decaying planet" movie and would be all yanked out by now if not for the grass roots people using them.
You can bet that I do know this... and this answers your next bit as well.

Of course they were installed with government money but which branch? Are they maintained by local municipalities? State? Fed? Power companies?
The answer here, unfortunately, is "yes." There were so many programs that installed these, that today nobody knows or - for the most part - cares who was originally resonsible for them. Basically, they are all orphans today.

Here's an idea for the charger network map. Each charger is notated by a number or letter that refers to a legend at the bottom. The characters relate to the government or whatever organization that is in charge of maintaining that charger. Include a phone number and a contact person. Maybe even the number of the guy (or gal) that actually wrenches the chargers.
There is only one number to call for any of them: The EAA. We're the only ones who repair them today. NONE of the orgs that originally installed them claim any responsibility, and the warranties are all up. We repair them with our own time and funds and donations from others.

Where can I learn what the heck "AVCON" means, and what this adapter box is?

I found that web site, and several others, during my search a few days ago, but it wasn't clear to me what the various acronyms for types of charger mean. No explanation found.
Hmmm. Really? You mean the key found at the bottom of every charger page didn't help?

Types of Chargers:
LP means Large Paddle Inductive.
SP means Small Paddle Inductive.
AV means Avcon-compatible conductive.
OC means another kind of conductive charging station or receptacle.
$ denotes pay parking.
R denotes restricted parking -- not available at certain times or under certain circumstances.

None of this really means much of anything to somebody who doesn't own a car. The EVCN pages are specifically for owners. There have been several charging "standards" in the past, and they all mean something to current EV owners. AVCON is the old conductive standard, SPI is a small paddle inductive charger, and LPI is Large paddle inductive - like the key says. If you car uses one, then you're set. If not, then you need to adapt it. If you buy a Tesla, you'll find out all about this wonderful world of chargers - and all the Teslas will be converted to use the new standard when it is rolled out. And if any of this does NOT become obvious if/when you buy an EV, you can ask one of the several hundred people who know this stuff well. We aren't that hard to find. Asking pleasantly will probably yield better results than demanding, however.

Oh, and this is what the AVCON adapter looks like:
http://evnut.com/images/chargers/adapters/avcon_adapter.jpg

In fact, there is a whole section on chargers and adapters on my site:
http://evnut.com/charger.htm See the links at the top for varous sub-pages like Adapters.

I really WANT to believe, but its pretty tough right now.
Believe what, exactly? That EVs can work? That there are 2,000 public chargers? Not sure what you mean.

I'd be happy to buy a Tesla for MOSTLY local driving, but I would like to believe that it is possible to take a longer drive. Nothing found yet gives me any ability to have such a belief. :-(
Ah. You want to believe right now that EVs are a good choice for long distance driving? Save yourself lots of grief and stop believing now. EVs are superior vehicles for fixed-distance commuting. Today they aren't great long-distance vehicles. Right tool for the right job.

Your statement misses and obscures the issue. There are many ways to chage a Tesla, but most of them are not useful on a trip.
Misses and obscures? Whoa. All I was trying to do was inject some accuracy. I had no intention of misleading anybody. I guess we all have to define what "useful" is on a road trip. I have friends who charge slower than 18 miles per hour on their road trips. And they CHOOSE to take their EVs. Their other option is charging at 120V at about 7 mph, so the 240V chargers at 18 mph seem REALLY useful. It is all relative. There will come a time when we have to decide what we "need" and what we "want" out of our transportation.

I have no patience.
Then my advice is to by an EV and work tirelessly toward making them more perfect.

EVnut

04-16-2009, 10:43 PM

Oh, and this is a good place to point out that this whole fast charge/range thing is either/or... and not both. For comfortable long distance, we either need higher capacity energy storage, or we need fast charge. There may be a happy balance in the middle there, but in general if you have a huge "tank" you don't need to fill it super fast. If you can fill the tank super fast, then you don't need the tank to be huge.

If we really wanted EVs to happen (as much as we pretended that we wanted fuel cells to happen) then it would be relatively easy (as compared to H2 fueling station implementation) to offer fast chargers on all interstates. But for some reason the money is/was there for H2, and not available for battery research/infrastructure. Go figure.

The big question becomes: How much do we want to spend to support the most difficult 10% of vehicles trips (meaning that long-distance travel beyond say 200 miles range is the high-hanging fruit). We can do the sub 200 mile distances somewhat easily and cheaply - and that accounts for about 90% of the vehicle trips made. How much do we want to spend for the other 10% of vehicle trips? Are we willing to spend 100% more money to achieve another 10%? Or is there a better way than to force the situation with EVs that have a sweet spot in the "90% of trips" area?

It is amazing what we think we "need" in our transportation these days. But then I'm a bit biased since the vast majority of the miles I personally travel are by bicycle. :)

MarkW

04-17-2009, 12:20 AM

RV parks (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=rv+park&sll=38.976492,-115.422363&sspn=13.39678,19.775391&gl=us&ie=UTF8&ll=38.376115,-115.268555&spn=13.508607,19.775391&z=6) are available all over the country and usually offer fairly high power outlets (often 30 or 50 amp service).

The Dept. of Energy also runs the "Truck Stop Electrification (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/idle_reduction_electrification.html)" program. Idle reduction for heavy trucks is the main purpose, but the resultant higher power, outdoor outlets could recharge an EV too.

efusco

04-17-2009, 07:19 AM

The big question becomes: How much do we want to spend to support the most difficult 10% of vehicles trips (meaning that long-distance travel beyond say 200 miles range is the high-hanging fruit). We can do the sub 200 mile distances somewhat easily and cheaply - and that accounts for about 90% of the vehicle trips made. How much do we want to spend for the other 10% of vehicle trips? Are we willing to spend 100% more money to achieve another 10%? Or is there a better way than to force the situation with EVs that have a sweet spot in the "90% of trips" area?

It is amazing what we think we "need" in our transportation these days. But then I'm a bit biased since the vast majority of the miles I personally travel are by bicycle. :)
I've heard, and understand YOUR thinking on this Darrell, but as we've discussed in the past PERCEPTION is what this is all about. It is THE hurdle. And if people have the perception that their EV won't be a 'do everything' vehicle the resistance to acceptance will be huge.

If we build quick-charge highways and people have the perception and confidence that they can travel around the country in their EV and juice up whereever and whenever they need to just like they do with their ICE vehicles then the process of acceptance will be smoother.

It is, by far, the first and most oft asked question when I've told people I ordered a Tesla. How far can it go, what do you do if it runs out of juice, and how can you charge it on long trip. I know you've heard them too and have made your arguements...and they're good arguements for sure. But in my part of the world people travel longer distances and they do not trust batteries. If spending money to build a quick-charge highway will help overcome those perceptions then I think it should happen.

Frankly, and I've said it before, I think it needs to be a private entrepreneur that takes up the task of starting to build these quick charge highways. If they can find build a multi-charger type charge station that could accomodate all current and anticipated models of EV, put credit card operated machines along the highway just like gas stations or even located on gas station property next to the pay air and water machines, I think that would help. But they're gonna need start up $$ and they'll need to be willing to wait a long time to become profitable. Obviously strategic placement in California to start would be smart...dropping one of these in Hayes, KS is unlikely to be a wise business decision for a number of years. And yet that may be where they most need to be to get us midwesterners over our perception problem.

graham

04-17-2009, 07:44 AM

we've discussed in the past PERCEPTION is what this is all about. It is THE hurdle. And if people have the perception that their EV won't be a 'do everything' vehicle the resistance to acceptance will be huge.

I agree with this. People do not like change. They don't want to buy that new fancy DVD player, they want the double-deck DVD / VHS player. Until they get it and realize they never use their VHS player and would much rather only play DVDs. So their next purchase is a DVD only deck.

People will realize once they have plug-in hybrids that they do not want the hassle, expense and noise of an ICE and will go out of their way in the future to avoid it. But even though that is the case, it is a waste of time trying to convince lots of these skeptics that they would be happier going straight to EV today: that EVs really will handle most of their needs. Most won't listen and need to discover it for themselves before they believe it. Pushing the point only annoys them (even if it is ultimately true).

EVnut

04-17-2009, 08:02 AM

Oh sure, EVan *WE* have discussed it before. But not everybody on this forum has had the pleasure of being part of our witty reparte. ;)

If we build quick-charge highways and people have the perception and confidence that they can travel around the country in their EV and juice up whereever and whenever they need to just like they do with their ICE vehicles then the process of acceptance will be smoother.
There's nothing here to disagree with. It comes down to just one question: How much are we willing to pay for this luxury? We can do anything... if we are willing to pay for it. Hell, we could even make hydrogen cars work to some extent if we were willing to pay the price.

If spending money to build a quick-charge highway will help overcome those perceptions then I think it should happen.
Heck, I too think that it would be GREAT. This would allow the EV to come ever closer to that mythical "perfect car" status for sure. And this will be part of the natural progression of things. I just don't see it happening in the short term. As it is right now there are many who says that EVs can't work until we have infrastructure, and the infrastructure guys aren't going to put big bucks into installations unless there are enough cars to use them. It is a sticky situation, and not an easy one to throw money at from any angle.

Frankly, and I've said it before, I think it needs to be a private entrepreneur that takes up the task of starting to build these quick charge highways.
There are certainly some high-profile companies working on this right now. The bad news is that the direction it is heading is to a situation where driving an EV is more expensive than driving a gas car. And I think that will work against the cause every bit as much as not seeing a fast charger every 10 miles of highway.

As before, we agree on the basics. We only differ on the details.

EVnut

04-17-2009, 08:09 AM

Pushing the point only annoys them (even if it is ultimately true).

I think that many would agree that my forte is the *annoying* part. :tongue:

Tdave

04-17-2009, 08:11 AM

Give me a 400 mile battery and then I only need charging stations 2 places:

1) Wherever I sleep
2) Wherever I eat on long trips (highway service station)

And #2 becomes increasingly unnecessary as battery ranges top 500 miles.

Kevin Harney

04-17-2009, 08:13 AM

I would even say that 400 miles would enable only #1 for 99% of the time. That is 8 hours of highway driving per day and that is plenty for most people :)

EVnut

04-17-2009, 08:16 AM

The beauty of this is that none of this is "rocket science." We know how to do high-capacity batteries. We know how to do fast charging. And both get better at a steady pace, and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future. We just can't afford to wait around for the perfect when the "good enough" is rarin' to go.

If we all wait for big batteries and fast chargers, we might as well wait on fuel cells.

Tdave

04-17-2009, 08:16 AM

I would even say that 400 miles would enable only #1 for 99% of the time. That is 8 hours of highway driving per day and that is plenty for most people :)
Fine. Then we're down to just needing charging at homes and hotels. That's all I want for my Roadster today to be happy.

graham

04-17-2009, 08:18 AM

I would even say that 400 miles would enable only #1 for 99% of the time. That is 8 hours of highway driving per day and that is plenty for most people :)

Agreed - but a "400 mile" battery is very likely not 400 highway miles. Figure a 500-600 mile battery to get your 400 highway miles. At the current rate of capacity increase those cars are only 5-8 years away.

Kevin Harney

04-17-2009, 08:21 AM

Fair enough statement and very true but I had sort of figured that it would include a lunch stop and a few poddy stops that you might be able to plug in for a while. A few extra miles if needed.

Tdave

04-17-2009, 08:26 AM

Agreed - but a "400 mile" battery is very likely not 400 highway miles. Figure a 500-600 mile battery to get your 400 highway miles. At the current rate of capacity increase those cars are only 5-8 years away.

Right. So forget all the infrastructure EXCEPT ... Charge where we sleep. Done.

Other charging locations will spring up to attract consumers. That'll be bonus. And will fade as range increases.

vfx

04-17-2009, 09:56 AM

Fair enough statement and very true but I had sort of figured that it would include a lunch stop and a few poddy stops that you might be able to plug in for a while. A few extra miles if needed.

I thought it was potty.

AnOutsider

04-17-2009, 09:57 AM

I would even say that 400 miles would enable only #1 for 99% of the time. That is 8 hours of highway driving per day and that is plenty for most people :)

highway range vs street range aside, at 60MPH, you could go 400 miles in less than 6 hours... with my driving habits, a little over 5 :biggrin:

Right. So forget all the infrastructure EXCEPT ... Charge where we sleep. Done.

Other charging locations will spring up to attract consumers. That'll be bonus. And will fade as range increases.

Especially along interstate rest stops

Kevin Harney

04-17-2009, 10:45 AM

Yes but AVERAGING 60 mph is a hard thing to do. With stops and all you really have to be breaking the speed limit a LOT to average that speed.

pninen

05-04-2009, 01:38 AM

but a "400 mile" battery is very likely not 400 highway miles. Figure a 500-600 mile battery to get your 400 highway miles. At the current rate of capacity increase those cars are only 5-8 years away.

Batteries are not rated like fuel tanks. A "400 mile" battery (per mfr spec) is probably good for 300 miles after a couple of years. At freeway speeds, that's probably 200 miles. If your freeway limit is 200 miles, you need a way to recharge it after 150 miles or so.

In other words, you really would like an 900 mile battery (per mfr spec).

Might be 10 years away.

Arkean

05-04-2009, 05:58 AM

Batteries are not rated like fuel tanks. A "400 mile" battery (per mfr spec) is probably good for 300 miles after a couple of years. At freeway speeds, that's probably 200 miles. If your freeway limit is 200 miles, you need a way to recharge it after 150 miles or so.

In other words, you really would like an 900 mile battery (per mfr spec).

Might be 10 years away.
Well.. reasoning in terms of miles in Battery capacities may raise some additional problems.

Given the Model is claimed to have a 160 Miles standard battery pack, and a quick-recharge capacity for about 45 min. ok.

If you double the battery capacity, Full quick-recharge time may be doubled, hence lasting about 1.30 hours, assuming the charge station is thresholded on his max Amp capacity... imagine then "quick-recharge" a 900 Miles battery pack. The only solution I arithmetically see is to raise drastically the Amp a quick-charger can supply... but this raise the problem about connectivity capacity and surely the availability of such electrical supply in a standardized way.

The other solution would be then to enhance the car energy-efficiency. In other words, how to make your EV suck less energy from battery to accomplish a fixed distance?

Check me if I'm wrong.. I just put up some simplistic maths given the numbers supplied publicly.

Cheers

WarpedOne

05-04-2009, 06:33 AM

Your reasoning is OK.

ICE cars have tanks rated in litres or gallons not miles and everyone gets along just fine. BEVs will have batteries rated in kWh and everyone will get along just fine also.

This "160mile battery" is just an interim step, before our minds adapt to what 50kWh in a small car actually means for range, or 40kWh in large car, or 70kWh in a big car.

The other solution would be then to enhance the car energy-efficiency. In other words, how to make your EV suck less energy from battery to accomplish a fixed distance?
Don't hold your breath here. All low hanging fruits are already picked. Maybe such improvements could bring another 10% or 20% improvement in range, but they would also bring other compromises like smaller size, lower max speed, odd design choices etc. Our boddies are as big and heavy as they are, the car has to be big enough for us to get in, materials have their phisical properties that will not change. When you have 90% efficient drive train you have to improve it 10times or 1000% for 10% increase in range with same kWh. Range reality.

vfx

05-04-2009, 07:28 AM

... imagine then "quick-recharge" a 900 Miles battery pack.

Why? Are you swapping Le Mans drivers? The percentage of owners that will demand back to back 900 mile trips is statistically insignificant. No one will address this niche until it evolves naturally.

EVnut

05-04-2009, 07:37 AM

This "160mile battery" is just an interim step, before our minds adapt to what 50kWh in a small car actually means for range, or 40kWh in large car, or 70kWh in a big car.

I hope you are right... but I have my doubts. Why, for example, are we still using "wattage" for lightbulb brightness?

And of course we are still using non-metric units in the US while our "minds adapt" to our official units of measurement.... metric. :sigh:

EVnut

05-04-2009, 07:41 AM

Kevin Harney

05-04-2009, 07:46 AM

Based on the real world numbers coming back from Roadster owners it appears that it gets about 70-75% of the mileage at highway speeds if I am not mistaken. It does have some very strong regen and there is hardly any of that on the highway. Just based on numbers I have seen posted here any owners can correct me if I am mistaken.

EVnut

05-04-2009, 08:40 AM

Based on the real world numbers coming back from Roadster owners it appears that it gets about 70-75% of the mileage at highway speeds if I am not mistaken.

That makes plenty of sense, and is what I'd expect. The other thing to consider is that "highway speed" is a huge variable. I dare say that "highway speed" means significantly different things to your average Roadster driver than it does to your average Prius driver, ya know?

In other words, if I drove my RAv4EV at 75 mph for my "freeway speed," my range would lower by about 25%.

dpeilow

05-17-2009, 04:03 PM

Chicago unveils solar-powered recharging stations for electric cars (http://www.gizmag.com/solar-powered-recharging-station/11499/)

Tdave

05-17-2009, 04:07 PM

Chicago unveils solar-powered recharging stations for electric cars (http://www.gizmag.com/solar-powered-recharging-station/11499/)

They don't say how much power that station provides. Can't be much. Right?

TEG

05-17-2009, 04:10 PM

Well if they are grid tied (as they should be) then they can trickle power all day long even when no one is charging.

vfx

05-17-2009, 04:37 PM

http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/charge-point-1.jpg
http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/charge-point-2.jpg
http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/charge-point.jpg

Chicago unveils solar-powered recharging stations for electric cars (http://www.gizmag.com/solar-powered-recharging-station/11499/picture/77086/)

Joseph

05-17-2009, 08:14 PM

"...I can still go 100 miles on a battery pack that is officially rated at 120 miles...So if the ratings stay the same, then I fully expect a "400 mile pack" to carry me at least 375 miles on the freeway - not 200, or even 150."

You're comparing the NiMH on a Rav4 EV to the lithium on a Roadster. As far as I know, lithiums (especially in the Roadster's setup) don't have a known calendar life.

On the other hand, NiMH is known for long calendar life.

Plus, the batteries of the Roadster will undergo very different conditions (on account of it being a sports car) in comparison to the Rav4 EV.

Tesla's FAQ says,

" Our testing and modeling indicate that a typical Tesla Roadster owner who drives 50,000 miles over five years should have about 70 percent of initial performance levels available."

On average that's a six% decrease. (I remember one Tesla blog said their batteries degrade most quickly the first year) So after a couple years (that's two in my book), a 400 mile pack should be 12% less.

That would mean 48 less miles; 352 would theoretically be the range according to Tesla's numbers given to their Roadster.