Interior space

[Kevin Harney]

I too found the back seat cramped. And like you was hoping that production size would fix that issue. My knees were actually pressed against the front seats. NOT LUXURY at all.

[dpeilow]

Sounds like the +2 seating in the back has to go then. I'd rather have something with proper 2nd row seating than that - especially in something that is bigger than a 5 series.

[stopcrazypp]

I too found the back seat cramped. And like you was hoping that production size would fix that issue. My knees were actually pressed against the front seats. NOT LUXURY at all.

When I saw the photos of the back I knew that would be a problem. They should ditch the two jump seats if it can make the rear seat legroom better or have adjustable rear seats. It should at least be on par with a 5 series.

Again if any of you are considering one, please mention it to them as a top concern, a sedan with cramped rear seats isn't going to be particularly useful. Although in the sporty sedan-coupe segment the rear seats tend to be cramped, having more practical rear seats is going to help this car appeal more since this was supposed to be a more practical alternative to the Roadster.

[AnOutsider]

How's the floorroom since they said without the bulky transmissions and such there would be more space?

[Kevin Harney]

The floor room in the current car is NOT indicative of the production model. They have already said that the floor pan will be 1" lower in the production vehicle. So it is hard to judge. It was OK in the Early Prototype but not spectacular but 1" can make a huge difference.

[flabby]

The floor room in the trunk area is good. Elon said that the final version will be about 2" lower than the current version because they're changing the configuration of the motor. There was lots of head room in the back seat. I also noticed the tight leg room, but I assumed at the time that maybe the front seats had just been pushed back all the way.

[Kevin Harney]

flabby are you sure that is what he said ?

He told me something different at the April 1 opening. He told me that the floorpan would be lowered 1" and the interior doors would be increased by 4" - 2" on each side to make the cabin wider. The reasoning for these changes being allowed was that the structure of the floorpan and the doors was not completely in place so what was there was actually thicker than what will be in the production car.

Wondering if things are changing or if Elon is just confused again - as usual. He should not be allowed to talk in public LOL he seems to get it wrong most of the time. Use Rachel or someone else that can get things right.

[stopcrazypp]

The floor room in the trunk area is good. Elon said that the final version will be about 2" lower than the current version because they're changing the configuration of the motor. There was lots of head room in the back seat. I also noticed the tight leg room, but I assumed at the time that maybe the front seats had just been pushed back all the way.

Good to hear of the headroom being good, you can't exactly say the same of competitors like the CLS (should be interesting how the rear seat is like in the Karma). If they lower the floor 1-2" it might help the leg room. And maybe the front seats were pushed all the way back. They should be able to make it work out.

[Kevin Harney]

Head room was good. I am not tall but most of my height is in my trunk area so sometimes head room can be a problem for me. I had no problem - even in the back seat of this car.

[flabby]

I recorded elon's intro. I'll listen to it again and get back to you about whether or not I was correct about the motor configuration and 2" floor drop. I was giving this info from memory.

[Kevin Harney]

Maybe the floor pan in front of the axles will be dropped 1" and behind the axle where the 3rd seat may be will be 2". That would totally make sense. Just curious that is all ....

[mt2]

I remember reading, perhaps in this thread, that the Model S will also stand 1" taller when they dump the donor chassis (it's past midnight and I'm too tired to look it up). Perhaps dropping the floor an inch and raising the roof an inch accounts for confusion.

Speaking of the donor chassis, perhaps the cramped rear seats are a constraint of what they had to work with.

[flabby]

I remember reading, perhaps in this thread, that the Model S will also stand 1" taller when they dump the donor chassis (it's past midnight and I'm too tired to look it up). Perhaps dropping the floor an inch and raising the roof an inch accounts for confusion.

Speaking of the donor chassis, perhaps the cramped rear seats are a constraint of what they had to work with.

Mt2, if you watch the latest video that doug posted from the Menlo park event (seen here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/tesla-model-s-whitestar/2556-menlo-park-model-s-premier-4.html), Elon specifically states that the trunk floor will be dropped 2" once the motor has been rotated from a slightly inclined position in the current car to a flat position in the final version of the car.

Here's a direct link to the video:
YouTube - Tesla Menlo Park Model S unveiling Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWoqyUjINbs&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eteslamotorsclub%2Ecom%2Ftesla%2Dmodel%2Ds%2Dwhitestar%2F 2556%2Dmenlo%2Dpark%2Dmodel%2Ds%2Dpremier%2D4%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded)

[roblab]

Mt2, if you watch the latest video that doug posted from the Menlo park event (seen here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/tesla-model-s-whitestar/2556-menlo-park-model-s-premier-4.html), Elon specifically states that the trunk floor will be dropped 2" once the motor has been rotated from a slightly inclined position in the current car to a flat position in the final version of the car.

The key phrase here is "donor chassis". I was told I was not supposed to know that the frame is a standard steel frame from a German Mfg. They had to make it look good using someone else's measurements. The passenger seat, I was told, was welded down. I am not even planning to try to sit in it until they have a real finalized prototype.

[lefty]

its very crowded in the back seat... I'd compare it to a 2-door sports coupe, not a 4-door sedan. And the Tesla reps did tell me the chasis will change and so will the rear legroom. We shall see :)

oh, first post... hi.

[Kevin Harney]

Hey Lefty,

Welcome !!! Glad to have you here. I was told the same thing at the reveal and was given the reasoning behind it so I believe that the likely hood of that changing is VERY HIGH. We should by all accounts get more leg room in the back. I too felt it was coupe status not sedan status at that time.

[Arnold Panz]

Hi, all! First time poster -- I reserved a Model S on the 26th and was very glad to find this board a few days ago to quench my thirst for info on Tesla!

On the seating, I've read and heard that Elon is adamant about having the two child seats in the rear. I've got 3 kids under the age of 8, and I think Elon has 5 kids under the age of 6, so I can understand his mild obsession with ensuring that he can fit most of his brood into the car at one time. It would be unfortunate if they sacrificed leg room in the back just to put those two jump seats in, but I would expect him to push as hard as possible to keep those two jump seats as part of the plans, not only because it was introduced as having 7 seats, but because he has a vested personal interest in being able to seat 7 people at a time (including 5 kids in the back).

[Brent]

Hi, all! First time poster -- I reserved a Model S on the 26th

Congrats!


[Elon] has a vested personal interest in being able to seat 7 people at a time (including 5 kids in the back).

Yeah...for the sake of the four adult sedan, I wish he didn't have so much skin in the game. Seating for seven really ought to be in a van, not in a four door car. Give me legroom for rear seat passengers!

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah...for the sake of the four adult sedan, I wish he didn't have so much skin in the game. Seating for seven really ought to be in a van, not in a four door car. Give me legroom for rear seat passengers!

The best way to satisfy both goals is to somehow have the seats adjustable, that way without children in the back you can move it back so you have more leg room and when you do then you can move it forward so the children in the back have more space.

[Arnold Panz]

I'm really torn on this -- for me personally, it would be a great option to have the additional seating, but with the aerodynamics of an EV, plus the added space needed to put the two seats in (even if they fold into the trunk), plus the extra LATCH bars, seat belts etc., I'm just not sure it's a worthwhile sacrifice to make for people who have pre-teenage children. I ultimately want Tesla to sell as many cars as possible, and I'm not sure that young parents are a big enough market for them, or that it makes enough difference to them to have the additional two seats which will cause a loss of space or leg room for everyone else buying the car who doesn't have young children.

[AnOutsider]

Well, let's just hope that if it works out that the seats can't be kept without sacrifices, Elon doesn't go all Steve Jobs and say it's his way because it's the right way or some crap

[Kevin Harney]

It is kinda hard to go back on a very basic feature of the car - seats 7. But I am sure that if there are comprmises to be made space wise it will be to the third row and not the second row.

[graham]

Since the 3rd row of seats is just an option, and you don't have structural impediments like a gas tank behind the second row, I wonder if the back seat has to be fixed in place? Can they make it so if you order without the jump seats, that they give the back seat more room?

Would be an interesting trade off.

[Cobos]

As at least half of the flexicars with a full ICE setup manages 7 forward facing seats and movable 2nd row I fail to see how this can be a technical problem. Look at the Toyotal Verso f.inst. with almost 24 less lenght inches it still manages 7 seats that at least in theory seats 7 adults, tiny adults mind you, but still. Movable backseat or at least two positions depending on if you take the jump seat option or not should not be a problem. But the fact is for most customers the jumpseats might be usefull as long as you can fit comfortably 5 adults in otherwise. If it is truely 5+2 not 5 / 2+5 then that is very usefull. And that needs good legroom in the backseat..

Cobos

[AnOutsider]

Does anyone have pictures or illustrations on how they FORESEE the 2 chairs sitting? I've heard backwards, frontwards as a 3rd row etc, but never seen any pictures. It also worries me that it looks like the seats are basically in the trunk

[doug]

Does anyone have pictures or illustrations on how they FORESEE the 2 chairs sitting? I've heard backwards, frontwards as a 3rd row etc, but never seen any pictures. It also worries me that it looks like the seats are basically in the trunk

Well that Whitestar styling thread has turned into a mess, but we talked about it there some.

First mention of the rear facing seats was here. Some rumble seat images here. I still don't see how it's supposed to work given the current placement of back seats and the slope of the rear glass. Seems those kids are gonna whack their heads when mom decides to test out the 5.6 second 0 to 60 time.

More discussion about it in the "babies in the trunk" thread.

[AnOutsider]

Thanks for that doug. I still feel very wary about essentially putting kids in the trunk. I mean, aside from it just SOUNDING wrong, aren't they the first to be hit in a rear end collision?

*edit* looks like my concerns were shared in the other threads. The webcam idea is nice (well not a webcam, but a reverse-cam-type thing but for the trunk area). Guess we'll see how it pans out.

[shark2k]

To stay on topic, I like what graham said. I think it would be nice to have the option to not have the 2 jumper seats and opt for more trunk space depending on the design of the seats, i.e. folding into the floor or take out seats. Guess we'll just have to wait until more information comes out to find out.

-Shark2k

[Kevin Harney]

I am fairly certain that they will be rear facing seats. I think that I heard Franz mention that in our conversation but I can not be certain of it. And there is actually more room back there than you would imagine from the pictures. In looking at the car in person and talking to Franz it seems that it would be totally doable. I mentioned that legs and feet could be behind the axle and Franz said yes plenty of room. Rear facing seats would have the back of the seat against the back of the second row seat so head room should not be a problem.

[graham]

Yes. The third row will be rear facing.

[copdoc]

I'm really torn on this -- for me personally, it would be a great option to have the additional seating, but with the aerodynamics of an EV, plus the added space needed to put the two seats in (even if they fold into the trunk), plus the extra LATCH bars, seat belts etc., I'm just not sure it's a worthwhile sacrifice to make for people who have pre-teenage children. I ultimately want Tesla to sell as many cars as possible, and I'm not sure that young parents are a big enough market for them, or that it makes enough difference to them to have the additional two seats which will cause a loss of space or leg room for everyone else buying the car who doesn't have young children.

Vans in this country get HORRIBLE gas mileage. For years now Toyota has had hybrid minivans in Japan but has been unwilling (unable?) to sell them here. I've been looking in for a seven-person reasonable car for about 6 years. While I'm all for having comfort in the second row, I bet there will be as many mothers carrying a bunch of children as there will be professionals carpooling 4 grownups around. Personally I hope it stays 7-seat.

(also a first post!)

[graham]

Welcome, copdoc!

Above and beyond the seating of the production Model S, it will be interesting to see all the different versions of this same drivetrain they produce. There may well be a van or SUV in the near future after the Model S arrives.

[Kevin Harney]

Copdoc,

I hope it stays an option. But it sounds like I should point out that the +2 seating in the back of the car will be for children only. Not enough room for adults. Just so you know ....

[efusco]

Vans in this country get HORRIBLE gas mileage. For years now Toyota has had hybrid minivans in Japan but has been unwilling (unable?) to sell them here. I've been looking in for a seven-person reasonable car for about 6 years. While I'm all for having comfort in the second row, I bet there will be as many mothers carrying a bunch of children as there will be professionals carpooling 4 grownups around. Personally I hope it stays 7-seat.

(also a first post!)

I had the opportunity to speak with some high up personnel at the 2010 Toyota Prius reveal in Detroit. The issue is that the hybrid Estima sold in Japan sells for the equivalent of around $50k US dollars there. Clearly it would not sell well for that price here and they're unwilling to deal with the backlash of selling it more cheaply in the US than in Japan.

[Arnold Panz]

I had the opportunity to speak with some high up personnel at the 2010 Toyota Prius reveal in Detroit. The issue is that the hybrid Estima sold in Japan sells for the equivalent of around $50k US dollars there. Clearly it would not sell well for that price here and they're unwilling to deal with the backlash of selling it more cheaply in the US than in Japan.
A bit off-topic, but I share copdoc's frustration. I realize that South Florida is not exactly like the rest of the US, but I can't tell you the number of "soccer moms" that my wife and I are friends with that are looking for a 6+ seat fuel efficient option and simply cannot find one. The third row in the Toyota Highlander is a joke, and the Escalade and Tahoe hybrids gets horrible mileage. Just speaking for people I know here, there is definitely a market for a more fuel efficient upscale SUV/minivan. These people go to Whole Foods with their reusable shopping bags in these giant SUVs or minivans because they're lugging 3 or 4 kids around and don't have a choice in the market right now. I'm barely able to squeeze 3 kids into my Lexus 400h, and when it's my turn to carpool I have to take my wife's car (Mercedes R 500).

[efusco]

A bit off-topic, but I share copdoc's frustration. I realize that South Florida is not exactly like the rest of the US, but I can't tell you the number of "soccer moms" that my wife and I are friends with that are looking for a 6+ seat fuel efficient option and simply cannot find one. The third row in the Toyota Highlander is a joke, and the Escalade and Tahoe hybrids gets horrible mileage. Just speaking for people I know here, there is definitely a market for a more fuel efficient upscale SUV/minivan. These people go to Whole Foods with their reusable shopping bags in these giant SUVs or minivans because they're lugging 3 or 4 kids around and don't have a choice in the market right now. I'm barely able to squeeze 3 kids into my Lexus 400h, and when it's my turn to carpool I have to take my wife's car (Mercedes R 500).
The 2009 HiHy is a bit better for that 3rd row. We have the '06 and on the occasions we need to use it my average size 9 year old boys enjoy sitting there. But it's hard to get in there, hard to get out, and I don't know that even they would want to sit there for a long trip. Plus, there's ZERO storage room once that seat is up.

[Arnold Panz]

The 2009 HiHy is a bit better for that 3rd row. We have the '06 and on the occasions we need to use it my average size 9 year old boys enjoy sitting there. But it's hard to get in there, hard to get out, and I don't know that even they would want to sit there for a long trip. Plus, there's ZERO storage room once that seat is up.
Exactly. Which, bringing this back on topic, is why for me the extra 2 seats made the difference for me in putting down the deposit. I suspect Elon had the revelation when he saw how much space there was in the rear of "why not put two rear-facing seats in there so I can get all 5 of my kids into this car?" I still worry that for the overall car market, especially at a higher price point, it may push away as many buyers as it attracts. Having it as an option would be the best of both worlds, but I don't know if that's possible, and there was no indication that it was an optional item. There's no doubt that there is at least some segment of the market out there extremely anxious for a fuel efficient/EV car that can seat more than 4 or 5 people.

[Cobos]

There are many cars that can do that.
The European Ford S-Max seats properly 7 and gets decent milage.
Any of the smaller Flexicars, like Mazda 5, Toyota Verso gives good milage and at least in theory seats 7 adults.
In Norway the Mercedes R is available as a R280 whole in the US there is a R320 Bluetec that got decent milage...

So I suppose there are options, you just have to compromise a bit on 0-100 times..

Cobos