Stability Control?

[Cobos]

I'm curious if the Model S V1.0 will have ESP/ESC or whatever they want to call it. Electronic stability control, will actually be required of all new cars in Europe by 2012 I beleive. I've already been in a situation where I would have greatly appreciated having ESP, and thus have woved any new car I buy needs ESP.

Cobos

[WarpedOne]

I'm curious if the Model S V1.0 will have ESP/ESC or whatever they want to call it. Electronic stability control, will actually be required of all new cars in Europe by 2012 I beleive. I've already been in a situation where I would have greatly appreciated having ESP, and thus have woved any new car I buy needs ESP.I'm sure they will, it would be a "Super Stupid Thing" to not include it. A single handed move from "a must buy" to "no way in hell".

My car has it and it had already saved my ass more than once.
I don't want to drive a car without it.

[doug]

I specifically asked Elon about stability control during the press event. It should be on one of the recordings. I think his response was that the car wouldn't need stability control. He then went on to say, "you'd need a spatula to flip this car over." A quote I heard him use again later that evening.

[efusco]

I specifically asked Elon about stability control during the press event. It should be on one of the recordings. I think his response was that the car wouldn't need stability control. He then went on to say, "you'd need a spatula to flip this car over." A quote I heard him use again later that evening.

I hope they reconsider. While ESC is great to prevent roll-overs, that's not all it does. Correction for slides, oversteers, etc. are equally important and no low center of gravity will prevent those like ESC can.

[Cobos]

This might be another crash with European car terms and US car terms. In Norway it seems at least the press has settled for the Bosch product name ESP as the catch-all name for this "thingy". As far as I know the ESP does prevent slips and slides. Mostly connected to lack of grip with the tires. On most ICE cars it controls throttle and braking in tandem to make sure you maintain grip. In Norway it's essential for icy curves where you come with too great a speed and it then removes throttle control from you and does a controlled braking to some times.

I drive a car without ESP and I recently on a snowy road ended up slipping and finally came to rest 90 degrees perpendicular to the road in the wrong lane. That was NOT nice, and I know from experience with my driving teacher on his BMW that had ESP that with ESP I most likely would have avoided any slippage.

I really hope this isn't something Musk is stubborn on that is "unneccisary" for the Model S. Both our version of AAA and IIHS stongly advise everyone that buys a new car to make sure it has ESC, and it might be mandatory by 2012 in the EU.

What I am referring to is ESC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control).

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

I specifically spoke with Elon on the April 1st visit to Washington about ESC - or what we call ESC in the US. He emphatically said that there are NO PLANS to implement that in either the Roadster or the Model S any time in the near future. I personally was greatly disappointed with this decision. He seems to think that the only thing it effects is roll over and he is dead wrong on that. I am not as much concerned about roll over as I am swerving and fish tailing and emergency handling. Perhaps if enought people ask they will change their minds on it. I think he is missing the bigger point. What about that NO COMPROMISES thing he has going on ..... :redface:

[efusco]

This might be another crash with European car terms and US car terms. In Norway it seems at least the press has settled for the Bosch product name ESP as the catch-all name for this "thingy". As far as I know the ESP does prevent slips and slides. Mostly connected to lack of grip with the tires. On most ICE cars it controls throttle and braking in tandem to make sure you maintain grip. In Norway it's essential for icy curves where you come with too great a speed and it then removes throttle control from you and does a controlled braking to some times.

I drive a car without ESP and I recently on a snowy road ended up slipping and finally came to rest 90 degrees perpendicular to the road in the wrong lane. That was NOT nice, and I know from experience with my driving teacher on his BMW that had ESP that with ESP I most likely would have avoided any slippage.

I really hope this isn't something Musk is stubborn on that is "unneccisary" for the Model S. Both our version of AAA and IIHS stongly advise everyone that buys a new car to make sure it has ESC, and it might be mandatory by 2012 in the EU.

What I am referring to is ESC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control).

Cobos

I'm referring to ESC. What you describe above is traction control in the US.

[efusco]

I specifically spoke with Elon on the April 1st visit to Washington about ESC - or what we call ESC in the US. He emphatically said that there are NO PLANS to implement that in either the Roadster or the Model S any time in the near future. I personally was greatly disappointed with this decision. He seems to think that the only thing it effects is roll over and he is dead wrong on that. I am not as much concerned about roll over as I am swerving and fish tailing and emergency handling. Perhaps if enought people ask they will change their minds on it. I think he is missing the bigger point. What about that NO COMPROMISES thing he has going on ..... :redface:
+1, absolutely agree

[Tdave]

I specifically spoke with Elon on the April 1st visit to Washington about ESC - or what we call ESC in the US. He emphatically said that there are NO PLANS to implement that in either the Roadster or the Model S any time in the near future. I personally was greatly disappointed with this decision. He seems to think that the only thing it effects is roll over and he is dead wrong on that. I am not as much concerned about roll over as I am swerving and fish tailing and emergency handling. Perhaps if enought people ask they will change their minds on it. I think he is missing the bigger point. What about that NO COMPROMISES thing he has going on ..... :redface:

I was standing next to Kevin during this conversation. I walked away :confused:

One of my primary objectives of this conversation was to find out where Tesla stood regarding extending the technology in high performance car control. It starts with stability control in the old ICE way with ABS independently per wheel. The new EV way would be using the combination of BOTH instant power and regen/braking at each wheel to achieve the ultimate in car control. I found out that not only were they not thinking in that direction, but they didn't even see the old school stability control as important, citing the very low center of gravity as why stability control wasn't a priority.

I could take Elon in a ride around a race track in a Roadster Sport to illustrate to him first hand why it's important. Even the Top Gear piece showed why, briefly in one of their scenes.

[Cobos]

I'm referring to ESC. What you describe above is traction control in the US.
I'm not sure... we may be talking about the same thing. If you follow that Wikipedia link I showed, under "Operation" you see a description of what I mean with ESP. I'm afraid I must say if the Model S does not have that functionality it is not safe enough in my eyes to warrant the price they are asking.

There I found the press release from Bosch about the mandatory ESP (http://www.bosch-presse.de/TBWebDB/en-US/Presstext.cfm?CFID=1675845&CFTOKEN=c28178078c8c2c9d-67BAD51D-0D8D-627C-E6916046DF14F880&Search=0&id=4137). Looks like it applies to the US as well?

It seems like Tesla is going to have to comply regardless of what Musk thinks if I'm reading that correctly?

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

Here is some clarification. The Model S is supposed to have traction control and ABS braking. But here in the US ESC also controls things like pitch and yawl of the car to insure that the way you are pointing the steering wheel is the way that the car actually goes when things are not happening on the road as you planned them in your head. Helpful during things like emergency lane changes and loss of traction in curves. Model S is not supposed to have ESC. Both Traction control and ABS do help you maintain control of the the car but ESC goes way beyond that and makes it a more complete picture of control.

[stopcrazypp]

I think there's some confusion over stability control versus traction control. It seems like even the roadster has simple traction control, what it doesn't have is stability control (which in addition adds sensors to monitor pitch and yaw like Kevin mentions). Traction control is designed to prevent the car from losing traction in all cases. Stability control prevents the car from skidding after detecting a slide. So the operation is slightly different.

If customers push enough for it, I think Elon will give in. It doesn't seem like it should cost significantly more given all the electronics already on the car. According to the article it costs less than ABS.

[Cobos]

Yes Kevin and that is exactly why Euro NCAP does not award any car 5 stars without ESC, if I can read the Euro NCAP tests correctly.
In the new 2009 tests you need at least 60% in the equipment category for a 5 star rating. Without ESC you loose 3 out of 7 points, and are down to just a possible 4 star rating.
I might be mistaken but to sell a luxury vehicle in Europe I'd say you NEED at least 4 stars on EuroNCAP. Otherwise we are back to the myth that EVs are unsafe and not meant for high speeds...

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

I now have it from a reliable source at TM that they are CONSIDERING putting ESC on the Model S but they will not be able to confirm it as a standard feature until 2010 at the earliest.

[Kevin Harney]

Cobos,

Do you have a link to that requirement? That would be GREAT to send to TM. It might help them change their minds to include it. I do now have it from a reliable source at TM that they are CONSIDERING it. They will not be able to confirm it as a feature until 2010 at the earliest.

Kevin

[James]

If ESC is so critical to safety ratings, then I don't think Tesla Motors can ignore this issue. They have to meet some basic standards for safety. TM should not give them any extra excuses for badmouthing the Model S in terms of safety.

[AnOutsider]

I now have it from a reliable source at TM that they are CONSIDERING putting ESC on the Model S but they will not be able to confirm it as a standard feature until 2010 at the earliest.

Forgive me, but ESC? Sorry new here.

[WarpedOne]

ESC = Electronic Stability Control
Called also ESP, VDC, etc.

[WarpedOne]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control):

While Sweden used public awareness campaigns to promote ESC use,[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-54) others implemented or proposed legislation. The Province of Quebec was the first jurisdiction to implement an ESC law, making it mandatory for carriers of dangerous goods (without data recorders) in 2005.[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-55) The United States was next, mandating ESC for all passenger vehicles under 10,000 pounds (4536 kg), phasing in the regulation starting with 55% of 2009 models (effective September 1, 2008), 75% of 2010 models, 95% of 2011 models, and 100% of 2012 models.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-autogenerated1-12) Canada[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-56)[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-57) will require 100% of passenger vehicles to have ESC on September 1, 2011.[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-58) The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Economic_Commission_for_Europe) has passed a Global Technical Regulation to harmonize ESC standards.[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-59) This prompted the Australian Federal Government to consider mandating ESC as early as 2009.[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-60) The European Parliament has also called for the accelerated introduction of ESC.[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-61) The European Commission has confirmed a proposal for the mandatory introduction of ESC on all new cars and commercial vehicles sold in the EU from 2012, with all new cars being equipped by 2014.[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#cite_note-62)

There is a link to NHTSA (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.012c081c5966f0ca3253ab10cba046a0/) rule 126 Part 49 CFR Parts 571 & 585 that says:

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Electronic Stability Control Systems
As part of a comprehensive plan for reducing the serious risk of rollover crashes and the risk of death and serious injury in those crashes, this rule establishes Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 126 to require electronic stability control (ESC) systems on passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, and buses with a gross vehicle weight rating of 4,536 Kg (10,000 pounds) or less. ESC systems use automatic computer-controlled braking of individual wheels to assist the driver in maintaining control in critical driving situations. NHTSA estimates ESC will reduce single-vehicle crashes of passenger cars by 34% and single vehicle crashes of sport utility vehicles (SUVs) by 59%, with a much greater reduction of rollover crashes. NHTSA estimates ESC would save 5,300 to 9,600 lives and prevent 156,000 to 238,000 injuries in all types of crashes annually once all light vehicles on the road are equipped with ESC.

[Kevin Harney]

Thanks I sent that paragraph to TM as well. Looks like it will be REQUIRED by the time Model S hits the streets.

[AnOutsider]

Ah, no wonder I didn't recognize it. Thanks!

[Joseph]

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/ESC_FR_03_2007.pdf

"This rule requires installation of ESC in 100 percent of light vehicles by MY 2012 (with exceptions for some vehicles manufactured in stages or by small volume manufacturers)."

Unless Tesla is going to be asking for an exception from the authorities, they're gonna have to put ESC on their cars. Besides, when they're selling a 50k car, they cannot be cutting corners on safety.

[Kevin Harney]

Joseph,

You are on a roll today that was the exact regulations that I was looking for to send to TM !!!! You da best man ....

[efusco]

I certainly WANT ESC on my Model S, but it seems to me that Tesla will easily qualify under the "low volume manufacturer" exception if they choose to. Again, I think it would be a very poor decison.

[Kevin Harney]

My source at TM says that Models S WILL meet all of the requirements for a 5 star crash rating. Period . End of Discussion. So that is a hopeful statement to me that it will have it.

[efusco]

My source at TM says that Models S WILL meet all of the requirements for a 5 star crash rating. Period . End of Discussion. So that is a hopeful statement to me that it will have it.

Ah, I've got ya...Elon did mention the 5-Star rating at the reveal so ESC would be key.

[Cobos]

If it isn't strictly required everywhere when the Model S goes on sale it will be soon and there will be public recommondations NOT to buy cars without ESC in most markets. So yes hopefully Tesla will come to their senses.

Cobos

[Cobos]

What kind of stars are we talking here? American stars or EuroNCAP stars ? I for obvious reasons would really like the Model S to get a Euro NCAP 2009 5 star rating :)

Cobos

[Kevin Harney]

Our top crash rating is also 5 stars.