Charging Station standards [Archive] - Tesla Motors Club

vfx

10-09-2008, 01:02 PM

Lear joins the fray:
Green Car Congress: Lear Introduces PHEV and EV Chargers (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/lear-introduces.html)

Lear Introduces PHEV and EV Chargers
8 October 2008
Lear Corporation, a leading global automotive supplier of seating, electrical distribution systems and electronic products, has introduced plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) and full battery-electric vehicle (BEV) chargers to its global electrical and electronics product portfolio.

Lear’s battery charging products include an operating range from 1kW to 6kW, the ability to accommodate wall socket input voltages from 110V to 440V, and the capability to interface with electrical systems around the world. The chargers support both standard and quick charge capabilities, and can be customized to interface with different high-power chemistries, including NiMH and Li-ion.

The battery charger performs three electronic functions. FIrst, efficiency enhancing phase adjustments are made to the wall socket’s alternating current. The voltage is rectified to direct current (DC) voltage. The final step is to up-convert the household voltage to approximately 340V&mash;enough to charge a PHEV with 40-mile all-electric range.

William Mattingly, Lear’s recently-appointed Vice President of Global Electrical and Electronics Engineering, says that the company has already won several contracts for the chargers beginning with 2011 model year production.

A priority for Lear is to expand its presence in the global automotive Electrical and Electronics segment, according to Ray Scott, president of Lear’s Global Electrical and Electronics business. Mattingly came from Chrysler, where he had been vice president of Electrical/Electronics Engineering Core since 2003. He also will lead Lear’s new global Center of Excellence for hybrid electric and high-voltage power systems located on the Southfield Campus, as well as the globalization of wireless products, terminals and connectors and smart junction box technology.

graham

10-09-2008, 01:27 PM

So, these are DC chargers? Some sort of converter box would have to be used to plug a Tesla into them, right?

vfx

10-09-2008, 01:37 PM

Bay area based Tesla goes AC/DC/AC.

stopcrazypp

10-18-2008, 04:20 PM

Is that a Tesla plug?
Looks similar:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/10/mini_e_shots_10.jpg (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/10/p0047925-1280.jpg)

TEG

10-18-2008, 05:19 PM

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/hevtest/071608evchargingreq.pdf

Tesla connector looks quite different from that 'Mini' plug.
Tesla:
http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/tesla-djer-03.jpg

TEG

10-18-2008, 05:30 PM

Original RAV4-EV "Yazaki" connector:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070728200819/http://www.zefiro.com/ev/evrav43.jpg

Sgee

10-18-2008, 08:19 PM

Its been interesting after looking at all these different evs that all of them have different plugs. Wouldnt it be easier to set a charging infastrcture into place if all the evs had the same plug?

TEG

10-18-2008, 09:31 PM

Its been interesting after looking at all these different evs that all of them have different plugs. Wouldnt it be easier to set a charging infastrcture into place if all the evs had the same plug?

Well, Yes. But everyone seems to think they need some new feature lacking on other designs. Like higher current flow, extra safety features, or avoidance of royalties.

graham

10-19-2008, 10:30 AM

Well, Yes. But everyone seems to think they need some new feature lacking on other designs. Like higher current flow, extra safety features, or avoidance of royalties.

Or "Can't be as good as mine, 'cos I didn't invent it!" :smile:

mt2

10-19-2008, 06:15 PM

Well, Yes. But everyone seems to think they need some new feature lacking on other designs. Like higher current flow, extra safety features, or avoidance of royalties.
Ha! "Avoidance of royalties" has always been a popular feature among manufacturers.

vfx

10-20-2008, 09:59 AM

DDB

10-20-2008, 11:39 AM

If they were smart they would have (or will) take a lesson from DVDs.

"...No single company "owns" DVD. The official specification was developed by a consortium of ten companies: Hitachi, JVC, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Thomson, Time Warner, and Toshiba. Representatives from many other companies also contributed in various working groups. In May 1997, the DVD Consortium was replaced by the DVD Forum, which is open to all companies, and as of 2005 had over 250 members...."
and
"The official DVD specification books are available after signing a nondisclosure agreement and paying a $5,000 fee. One book is included in the initial fee; additional books are $500 each..."
and
"...ECMA has developed international standards for DVD-ROM..."
DVD FAQ (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#6.1)

Here's why:
"In fact, before its third birthday in March 2000, DVD had become the most successful consumer electronics entertainment product ever."

DVD FAQ (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.9)

IMO we're not there yet... There's going to be a quick-charge option on some of these EVs and because NOTHING but the Tesla has actually hit the market, we're stuck with 110 and 220 as the default VHS option. Moreover, cars are a little more expensive than movies, which can defray some of the costs. although I'd like a "standard," who the hell knows which one of these companies will develop the "best" one. I'd let the market sort it out.

TEG

10-20-2008, 12:10 PM

It used to be you could find semi-public water faucets all over the place. These days water costs enough that most places lock them down for their own use. In filling stations it is hard to even find "free air" or radiator water anymore. You have to feed the machine quarters. The day of the ubiquitous $.10 semi-public payphone is gone too... If you find a telephone "in the wild" it tends to offer "highway robbery" prices for those unlucky enough to have to use one.

Perhaps the days of the semi-public power plug are numbered as well. Electricity prices have gone up enough that it may be a stretch to think that KOAs, shopping centers, airports and such would be willing to give away the power to any EV that decides to park there. Even more true as pack capacity goes up. A Tesla using 60kWh of someone else's power could cost them $20 a visit... Those EV charger spots probably aren't getting E9 EV recharging TOU rates. People would likely be using them during the day not at night.

So, perhaps a new standard will come into play that expects a credit card or some other form of payment before it provides you with metered power.
Some companies (like Coulomb Technologies (http://www.coulombtech.com/)) are getting into this as a market.

vfx

10-20-2008, 12:31 PM

So, perhaps a new standard will come into play that expects a credit card or some other form of payment before it provides you with metered power.
Some companies (like Coulomb Technologies (http://www.coulombtech.com/)) are getting into this as a market.

Others here:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/technical/1381-charging-station-standards.html

I agree there is "no free lunch" anymore. Like high gas prices has been good for Evs so will high electricity prices will be good for solar and wind...

dpeilow

10-20-2008, 02:55 PM

The Smart EV and I think NICEs use CEE Form, which is a well known standard.

http://www.treehugger.com/electric-smart-car-ev-b0b02.jpg

TEG

10-21-2008, 11:20 AM

ACP eBox:

http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/acpropulsion/eBox/2006.08.18eBox/images/07-SANY0345.jpg

Are ACP and Tesla the same?

TEG

10-21-2008, 11:24 AM

Note - the different circular conductive charge connectors have some sort of "guide pin(s)" to line up the plug with the socket. If you are visually comparing them it can be useful to see which sort of guide the different ones are using to note if any two even have a chance of mating up.

TEG

10-23-2008, 10:20 PM

Hmm... This one looks slightly different
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gec0hW0YY6Xf/610x.jpg
http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/tesla-djer-03.jpghttp://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/tesla-roadster-2.jpg

graham

10-23-2008, 10:28 PM

I can see the grooves in the top picture for the "quarter turn" that you are supposed to give the charger after you connect, but not the bottom. Was the red car an earlier model?

TEG

10-23-2008, 10:51 PM

I think the red ones were an earlier version.

doug

10-24-2008, 02:08 AM

That insulating plastic guide also looks a bit more robust. I believe the red car is likely to be EP2. It's connector is identical to the ACP one.

That connector cover on the eBox doesn't look at all kludgey. :rolleyes:

.

TEG

10-24-2008, 09:27 AM

(nevermind)

doug

10-24-2008, 09:50 AM

I think you forgot your smiley there, Doug.
Had thought about it. I was hoping good-natured sarcasm could stand on its own.

.

vfx

10-24-2008, 10:06 AM

The red car connector looks like it might be a bayonet style with simple pins protruding to lock the the cable mate.

mt2

10-24-2008, 10:30 PM

That connector cover on the eBox doesn't look at all kludgey. :rolleyes:Yeah. I was going to ask earlier if they enlisted Cub Scout troops to make that gauze and glue thing.

vfx

10-30-2008, 11:33 PM

Rocky Mountain Institute : Abundance By Design (http://www.rmi.org/)

"We found there were many misconceptions—including that technology to make all this possible was not available -- when in fact the opposite is true,

Sigh..

Smart Garage - Connecting the future

RMI united experts across several industries for three days in Portland, OR., for a summit meeting to identify the barriers and breakthroughs needed to electrify the U.S. auto fleet, and do it in a “smart” way in order to reap huge environmental benefits, as well as open up a host of profitable business opportunities.

In the broadest assortment of stakeholders yet assembled on this topic, the gathering instigated several key initiatives to bring closer to full realization the "Smart Garage" -- a new energy paradigm that allows America’s cars to plug in to homes and buildings, uniting our transport, building and grid energy systems.

The Smart Garage is not a physical garage, rather it's a metaphor for the place where buildings, the grid, and the vehicle come together. Cars can connect to the grid at the shopping center while you buy groceries, in the parking lot of your office, curb-side down town, or in your own driveway.

Opportunity

“In this time of economic uncertainty, Smart Garage is an important national opportunity to build out a new, green infrastructure in the U.S. Bringing together electrified vehicles, energy-positive buildings, and a smarter and cleaner electricity grid will generate jobs and wealth, while decreasing our dependence on oil and greenhouse gas emissions," said Michael Brylawski, cofounder and leader of RMI's MOVE team.

"The key Smart Garage technologies--batteries, PHEVs, charge stations, communications technologies--are ready. Success depends on aligning a diverse array of companies on the vision, and ultimately engaging customers on the dramatic benefits it can have in their daily lives.”

Attendees included leaders from the utility and auto industries, innovators of clean energy solutions, IT systems providers, consumer products, metering, advanced battery technology and even retailers. Among the companies represented were major auto manufacturers such as Nissan and GM, utilities such as PG&E and Duke Energy, IBM, P&G, WalMart and Google, among many others.

The summit -- which focused on system-wide barriers and solutions that leverage collaboration across the value chain -- found essential elements of consumer demand, industry preparedness and government leadership are coming together, setting the scene for a great leap forward in the next five years.

"What proved most surprising was the concept of the Smart Garage is a lot closer to realization than we previously thought," said Laura Schewel, a transportation systems expert with MOVE and manager of the Smart Garage project.

"We found there were many misconceptions—including that technology to make all this possible was not available -- when in fact the opposite is true," Schewel said.

"There are still definitely some barriers currently preventing the immediate adoption of Smart Garage. To move forward, the group at the summit created several key initiatives, which RMI is driving, to break down these barriers even further. Initiatives range from research into advanced batteries and their potential second life options, to convening a group of leading 'seed' cities to make themselves a welcoming 'ecosystem' for electrified vehicles."

Conclusions

Conversation at the summit meeting in Portland concluded that:

Attainable and valuable first steps in this new energy paradigm revolve around building infrastructure and refining business models for key stakeholders to unleash private investment.
Consumer demand and private investment will drive the overhaul of the U.S. electrical grid, creating the infrastructure needed such as millions of plug-in charging stations for cars, all the while creating opportunity for profit and consumer benefits.
Benefits will include opportunities for new businesses and start-ups, job creation, cheaper fuel for drivers, more consumer choice in vehicle ownership, positive impact on the environment, breaking the nation’s dependence on foreign oil, increasing the use of alternative energies, and turning a profit.
The concept of Smart Garage technology and infrastructure is no longer a futuristic vision. Activities in multiple sectors are already underway -- such as the push for a Smart Grid, and thousands of converted plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) are already hitting the road.
In the first wave of convergence between buildings, vehicles, and the grids, cars will charge up in a "smart" way. This means the time of day they charge, how fast they charge, the location and more will be dictated by driver preferences (including electricity bill limits) balanced against utility and building needs. All of the benefits mentioned above are available only when the car is charging up (uni-directional charging). In the longer term, bi-directional charging (often called V2G) can use vehicle batteries as storage, opening up more benefits, though more more costly and technically challenging.
The event participants converged on the near term vision of a uni-directional Smart Garage, while agreeing that new infrastructure should be V2G-capable where possible to allow for moving to V2G in the future.
RMI's Smart Garage model is an Open Source initiative.

The Smart Garage (http://smartgarage.rmi.org/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=28.)

vfx

11-25-2008, 02:48 PM

PGE (not that one) set upa station:
ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5877181)

doug

12-08-2008, 07:01 PM

EDTA 2008: This is how ChargePoint's public electric car charging station will work - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/04/edta-2008-this-is-how-chargepoints-public-electric-car-chargin/)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/12/charge-point-card.jpg

AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/edta-2008-chargepoint-station/)

Anyone know what kind of connector this http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/12/pc031944_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/edta-2008-chargepoint-station/1203535/) is? (I think it's just a plastic mock up.)

graham

12-08-2008, 07:07 PM

From the comments of the article:

12-05-2008 @ 6:22PM
Mike Harrigan said...

I'm from Coulomb Technologies and wanted to answer some of the questions asked on the blog:

1. integrate with Prius key: Yes. We are working with OEMs to allow our system to read their RFID tag or include our RFID tag somewhere within their fob.

2. on using a credit card: we will accept credit cards through a remote payment station or by calling a toll-free number. To minimize the cost of the unit as well as the cost of individual credit card transactions we chose to use a subscription model and bill monthly.

3. RFID problems. You have to be *really* close - like within a fraction of an inch to activate so accidental reading and phishing will be very difficult if not impossible. WRT having the car authenticate, the plug is inaccessible (behind a locked door) until the user is authenticated. This is done to prevent damage due to vandalism, bad weather, etc. as well as safety.

4. 8 hour charging. Sure if your battery is completely depleted and you are charging at 110v. Much better if you need a partial charge or can charge at higher power (e.g.: 220v/30a). Besides, would you rather be able to charge in 8 hours or not at all?

5. Pointless game. OK. That's your choice. For those who don't have a garage or need to charge during the day this is the answer to a real problem. Most people like the idea of having an option to charge their plug-in car in places other than a home garage.

Good news that they are going to be 30amps. That should make them useful on occasion.

doug

12-08-2008, 07:33 PM

Good news that they are going to be 30amps. That should make them useful on occasion.
Yeah, a rate of 6.6 kilowatts (220V*30A) should charge a reasonable clip, just as long as the connectors are compatible.

dpeilow

12-09-2008, 12:54 AM

It looks like the 9th one here:

http://www.lewden.net/lewden/images/catalogue/1999/indust/pg22guide.gif

Kevin Harney

12-09-2008, 08:05 AM

graham

12-09-2008, 08:23 AM

It mentions that if the plug is kicked out (or pulled out intentionally) that the machine pages you or texts you.

That is cool, but I wonder if it can text you when you car has finished charging...

Actually, I would love that feature from the Tesla itself. Email me or text me when you have reached 80% charge while I go get dinner, car...

Kevin Harney

12-09-2008, 11:24 AM

I think I remember it saying that you would be notified when it got turned off - either from having the plug pulled or the charge was completed. Perhaps I misread though ...

graham

12-09-2008, 11:49 AM

Nice! It would be nice if the Tesla did that on its own as well. I so want to hack that stupid USB port and put some sort of computer monitor in place for such things.

Cobos

12-12-2008, 11:59 AM

Think's Mindbox supposedly does all these things, so if Tesla wants to implement this quickly I guess Think might want to share (for a price of course). It makes a lot of sense at least for the Model S for it do these kind of things...

Cobos

shark2k

12-12-2008, 04:15 PM

It mentions that if the plug is kicked out (or pulled out intentionally) that the machine pages you or texts you. Which is good. My question is does it turn the machine OFF so that people trying to steal your power will get nothing until you return and put you key back in .... seems likely but would liek to confirm that. I think this is GREAT !!! LOVE it !!! I work for an electric company and I think it would be a great public service to install these at all our offices to promote green cars !!! Looking forward to making the proposal when the product is available ....

I'm assuming you are referring to the link in post #37. From the article:

First, the system notes that a connection has been made. If this connection is stopped before the owner returns with their card (either by an accident or vandalism), a text message or email is sent to the owner notifying them of the disruption. This will prevent someone else from coming up and stealing your juice by putting the cord into their own car.

To me that basically is a round about way of saying the system turns off because of the last sentence in the quote.

-Shark2k

hailstorm

12-16-2008, 01:35 PM

Better Place Plug:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4120/plug2xq5.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plug2xq5.jpg)

graham

12-18-2008, 01:03 PM

The Electric Car's Perfect Plug - Choosing the Plug for Electric Cars - Popular Mechanics (http://www.origin.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4296274.html)

Californians first experimented with all-electric vehicles 10 years ago. As a young technology, the system was riddled with quirks. Among Richard Lowenthal's frustrations: He didn't know whether a charge station could connect to his Toyota Rav-4 EV until he looked at its cord. Imagine a gas-station pump suited for a Chevy but not a Honda. "There were four different [cord] standards," Lowenthal recalls. "It was a complete mess."

Toyota's first plug-in hybrid-electric Prius will be unveiled next month, and electric vehicles are poised to spread across the country. To avoid the mistakes of the past, the Society of Automotive Engineers will release standards for charger cords next year that should ensure all automakers and charge stations offer compatible devices. This will by no means be a simple extension cord. The plug is getting a fresh look.

Sleeker

The vehicle cord of the future, now being developed by Yazaki, is about one-fourth the size of previous models. About 45 millimeters in diameter, it will handle 80 amps of energy. Although earlier, direct-current (DC) models handled more than twice the energy—600 volts DC, 400 amps—the modern, alternating-current (AC) cords should still provide enough juice for even luxury electronic vehicles such as the Tesla Roadster.

vfx

12-18-2008, 01:40 PM

Can't help but wonder if this Society is talking with PBP, Tesla and the others mentioned in this thread. Or will everyone be surprised?

Joseph

12-18-2008, 10:02 PM

Hmm...I was told the SAE has already decided charging standards for plug-in hybrids. The article kind of sounded like it was aiming towards PHEVs and EVs, but they maybe they meant EVs only.

SByer

12-19-2008, 11:57 AM

80 amps doesn't seem like it's planning for the future. I get that there are tradeoffs with handling larger current, but this seems like it's wiring in a pretty harsh limitation.

WarpedOne

12-23-2008, 11:18 AM

80 Amps could be very little or it could be a lot, it depends on voltage.
80 Amps at 500Volts is 40kW, more than twice the Roadster's max charging power.

malcolm

12-23-2008, 03:58 PM

SAE to launch program to create standard plug for EVs - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/23/sae-to-launch-program-to-create-standard-plug-for-evs/)

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is expected to release a new set of standards that plug-makers will need to adhere to so that their prospective units are, as Popular Mechanics points out, sleek, safe and smart.The Electric Car's Perfect Plug - Choosing the Plug for Electric Cars - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4296274.html)

The vehicle cord of the future, now being developed by Yazaki, is about one-fourth the size of previous models. About 45 millimeters in diameter, it will handle 80 amps of energy. Although earlier, direct-current (DC) models handled more than twice the energy—600 volts DC, 400 amps—the modern, alternating-current (AC) cords should still provide enough juice for even luxury electronic vehicles such as the Tesla Roadster.
The traditional three-prong plug will be replaced with a five-prong plug, so current electric vehicles will need a converter or owners will have to replace their car's socket entirely. The two additional prongs allow charging stations and vehicles to communicate with each other—a capability that common electronics now lack. "The devices on both sides of the connector are not just dumb things like a light bulb," EPRI's Alexander says. "Both sides have intelligence."

If they aren't already, Tesla need to be in on the ground floor with this one.

vfx

12-27-2008, 09:23 AM

Elektrobay Charging Station (http://www.elektromotive.com/html/elektrobay_instructions.php)

dpeilow

12-28-2008, 04:07 AM

The Elektrobay stations use standard UK domestic type 13A sockets.

At the Greenfleet event (where Damon Hill drove the Roadster), I asked one of their engineers why they were not offering 32A or higher connections - pointing out the 16 hour charge time for the Roadster on their current offering - and I was told that they would love to do this, but it was regulatory problems that were holding them up. Apparently the powers that be do not trust the public with more than 13A on the street, yet.

malcolm

12-29-2008, 09:18 AM

Apparently the powers that be do not trust the public with more than 13A on the street, yet.

Since these devices will become just pieces of street furniture, there's the issue of vandalism to consider.

Are any of these systems chav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav)-proof?

TEG

01-02-2009, 05:44 PM

Better Place Plug:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4120/plug2xq5.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plug2xq5.jpg)

Notice the similarity to the cable from the Tesla motor that connects to the Tesla PEM:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2782565657_5768fc9dd9.jpg

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2782565657_5768fc9dd9.jpg)

graham

01-02-2009, 07:50 PM

I wonder if this means there will be a simple way to plug a Roadster into a Better Place charger? Possibly you normally have some sort of adapter as part of the mobile charger - but in a pinch you could pop the trunk and plug straight into the PEM?

TEG

01-02-2009, 08:51 PM

...but in a pinch you could pop the trunk and plug straight into the PEM?

No, I just said they are similar looking connectors. Electrically there would probably be no point in trying to join them.

doug

01-10-2009, 01:03 PM

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/01/poweradapters.jpg

Power: Double-Ended Male Adapters Are Illegal, Dangerous and "Possible Immoral" (http://i.gizmodo.com/5123719/double+ended-male-adapters-are-illegal-dangerous-and-possible-immoral)

TEG

01-10-2009, 02:51 PM

Ever notice how two 9V batteries snap to each other quite readily?
Make nice hand warmers too... (warning: leakage hazard!)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/3185389173_fc151b7537.jpg

malcolm

01-11-2009, 04:17 AM

Ever notice how two 9V batteries snap to each other quite readily?

Shhh.... the Bunny will hear you.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eFlwDtcDn6k

GSP

01-31-2009, 05:47 AM

Worldwide standardization for a high voltage DC connector, and associated communication protocols, would be very helpful for "45-60min" charging of BEVs.

This looks like a good first step in that direction:

http://et.epri.com/documents/12.11.08_IWC_PHEV_presentations/02_Kissel_December_2008.pdf

GSP

Tdave

01-31-2009, 05:56 AM

Has there been any work to have the car automatically communicate payment information to the charger? I'd like to enter my credit card information in my car, which would store it securely, and take care of the payment details whenever I hooked up the car to any public charger.

How is payment handled currently?

GSP

01-31-2009, 06:23 AM

Has there been any work to have the car automatically communicate payment information to the charger?

Yes. For example, check out Coulomb Technologies website:

Coulomb Technologies, Inc. (http://www.coulombtech.com/products.php)

On second thought, the payment info does not come from the car. However this is probably a good thing. If you lend your car to someone, they get to pay for fuel!

GSP

vfx

02-16-2009, 05:39 PM

Putting chargers at McDonald's here in the US (OK the world) would be a great kickoff to a charging grid.
Hamburgers and Hybrids: Swedish McDonald's Will Let You Plug In and Charge Up : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/02/mcdonalds-hosts-hybrid-charging-stations.php)

Swedish McDonad's might offer plug-in hybrid stations soon - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/16/swedish-mcdonads-might-offer-plug-in-hybrid-stations-soon/)

Joseph

02-16-2009, 08:13 PM

That would certainly spiff up McDonald's image.

dpeilow

02-17-2009, 01:00 AM

Another charging station using IEC 60309 standard connectors.

http://www.treehugger.com/McDonalds-Charging-Post.jpg

The text says 230V, but you can see in this picture they have 230V (blue) and 400V three phase (red) available.

Is this the first public station to offer three phase? Well done McDonalds.

Michael

02-17-2009, 05:11 AM

I don't see having a recharge station at McDonalds as being practical since people wouldn't normally be spending much time at a fast food restaurant.

dpeilow

02-17-2009, 05:27 AM

Must be why they need the three phase...

Kevin Harney

02-17-2009, 07:11 AM

Practical or not it is a GREAT thing for their image. And quite often I will take my lunch hour at McDonalds and even though I do not eat for an hour I stay and chat with friends and all so I could get a 1 hour charge while I am there if necessary. Or if on long trips I might stop and acouple Mc Donalds for a few minutes each and that could extend my range substantially. I think it is a godd offering.

graham

02-17-2009, 10:08 AM

If McDonalds is interested in getting in the business of alternative power for vehicles it would be more in their line of work to sell off their french fry oil to all the diesels that come in. But I certainly approve of the electric charger as well.

Joseph

02-17-2009, 01:23 PM

"I don't see having a recharge station at McDonalds as being practical since people wouldn't normally be spending much time at a fast food restaurant."

You're forgetting a detail. These chargers are for PHEVs, not full blown EVs. The SAE has standardized charging standards for PHEVs, but it hasn't been done yet for EVs. As such, PHEVs will take much less time to charge, meaning the charge time from even a quick stop will be meaningful.

Besides, if you have a PHEV in need of a charge, you can park at McDonalds and then go somewhere else instead in case you need to do something else.

doug

02-17-2009, 01:40 PM

I quit going to fast food some time ago, but at least around here, it looks like McDonald's is trying to get people to stay longer. What with their McCafe and the free wifi, etc. So if they think increasing the time a customer stays (or perhaps just giving them more of a reason to come in) is important, charging stations are a cool idea. It's a bit ironic though, since more and more, actual coffee shops are covering up their electrical outlets, so that you can only work on your laptop as long as your battery lasts.

Joseph

02-21-2009, 06:03 PM

At Battery Beach Bash, I talked to the owner of Clipper Creek, and got some good news. I had been previously told tha the SAE has yet to decide on charging standards for full EVs, but PHEVs have been standardized. He said the same charging standards for PHEVs are going to be used for full EVs also. (If someone has already confirmed this before, excuse me. I always thought and said what I was previously told. I don't mean to ignore anyone if I forgot them.) Also, I think I remember him mentioning Tesla switching over in a couple years from now.

The flip side to this is then the EVs will have to sacrifice some charing capability. The PHEV cable should be lighter. I know one of the SAE's objetives was to make sure the cable is more user-friendly.

I also talked to Columbum (or whatever) a bit. Their "charging stations" are just regular plugs. Clipper Creek looked much more professional. Perhaps they'll team up? Good charing technology + Columbum's payment system = better product. ???

graham

02-21-2009, 07:54 PM

Elon mentioned in the town hall meeting that he intended to revisit the Roadster plug design in the future. He feels the current design is somewhat clunky and can use improvement. Perhaps when they are ready to do so, there will be a standard out there.

Of course it sounds like the standard may limit how fast the car may charge - so it is likely any plug redesign may be just as non-standard as today's Roadster.

doug

02-21-2009, 10:46 PM

At Battery Beach Bash, I talked to the owner of Clipper Creek...

Which one of these guys is Dave Packard (btw, EVcast interview with him here (http://www.evcast.com/members/evcast/blog/VIEW/00000001/00000194/EVcast-176-Charging-Stations-VW-and-Dog-Seizures.html))?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3299378602_cf935b7e06.jpg?v=0 (http://flickr.com/photos/un1son/3299378602/in/set-72157614278757722/)

I also talked to Columbum (or whatever) a bit.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3442/3299537174_dca17aaceb.jpg?v=0

FYI, it's Coulomb [koo-lom], as in the SI (mks) unit of electric charge, named for an 18th century French physics dude.

Joseph

02-22-2009, 09:50 AM

In the first picture, the guy on the right was the person I talked to who said he was the owner.

doug

02-22-2009, 08:39 PM

I also talked to Columbum (or whatever) a bit. Their "charging stations" are just regular plugs. Clipper Creek looked much more professional. Perhaps they'll team up? Good charing technology + Columbum's payment system = better product. ???
There's nothing particularly complicated in the Clipper Creek box. Coulomb already has a Level 2 charging product as can be seen in this post. I guess so far, though, they've only rolled out the Level 1 charging stations.

.

Joseph

02-23-2009, 01:09 PM

Yeah, you're right doug. I just remembered that the "chargers" are nothing more than safety-related electronics.

TEG

02-23-2009, 02:23 PM

Some "charging stations" offer other features besides GFCI including things like:

Clocks and timers that restrict charging to certain times of day. (I gather this is built into the Roadster though?)
Meters that tell you how much current has been used.
Simulated voices that tell you how long you have charged, how many kWh have been used, etc.

$3,000 seems excessive, but I wanted to point out that some charging stations do have a fair bit of "intelligence" and extra features built into them.

It isn't always just safety features.

Joseph

02-23-2009, 07:38 PM

Simulated voices?

Who makes that? Are we talking Japanese talking toilets here?

TEG

02-23-2009, 10:10 PM

http://www.bowzerbird.com/eviweb/Products/ICS-200%20Startup%20Messages.pdf

The EVI ICS-200 is a fairly common charger in public locations with Avcon connectors.

When you unplug the cable you hear stuff (in a simulated voice) like:
"Power applied for 2 hours, 14 kilo-watt hours"
or
"Your EV did not request a charge"
or
"please press the stop button before disconnecting the EV", etc.

vfx

02-24-2009, 08:55 AM

When you unplug the cable you hear stuff (in a simulated voice) like:
"Power applied for 2 hours, 14 kilo-watt hours"
or
"Your EV did not request a charge"
or
"please press the stop button before disconnecting the EV", etc.

We can write some better ones. How about positive aspirations...

"Thank you for saving the planet."

"You have made a Saudi sad. Well done."

"And you never spilled a drop."

doug

03-03-2009, 02:57 PM

Nice little summary here:

EV Receptacle Standards? (http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/evplugs.html)

Not sure the form factor of the SAE J1772 "standard" is defined yet, though.

vfx

03-04-2009, 08:51 AM

A real eye opener.

That's the old (better) Tesla plug by the way.

Joseph

03-04-2009, 07:54 PM

Telsa is using a different plug now? Since when? Why is it better?

I just saw a Roadster a few months ago; I don't remember it being any different.

doug

03-04-2009, 08:10 PM

Telsa is using a different plug now? Since when? Why is it better?

I just saw a Roadster a few months ago; I don't remember it being any different.
It's not that different. The contacts haven't changed, it's just a bit more robust (thinker isolator, etc). See here.

vfx

03-05-2009, 03:41 PM

It's just the plug casing and locking mechanism that changed not the socket or pins.

The quickest way to tell is the new ones are black anno and the old ones have a nickel finish.

dpeilow

03-09-2009, 10:51 AM

More on Coulomb: Startup gives boost to electric cars: ‘vending machines for electricity' | Green Matters: Reducing, reusing and recycling | Idaho Statesman (http://www.idahostatesman.com/greenmatters/story/692048.html)

DDB

04-16-2009, 10:26 AM

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I thought it was worth posting that,

"GM notes at next week’s meeting of the Society of Automotive (http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/16/plug-standard-needed-for-electric-car-charging-cord-interface-sae-j1772/#) Eng inners, there is actually a Task Force that will convene to continue its work in trying to make SAE J1772 the industry standard."

Does anyone know if this would impact Tesla, or whether Tesla has a position on this standard?

Plug Standard Needed For Electric Car-Charging Cord Interface: SAE J1772 | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site (http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/16/plug-standard-needed-for-electric-car-charging-cord-interface-sae-j1772/#comment-107605)

vfx

04-16-2009, 02:03 PM

http://www.gm-volt.com/o/j1772.jpg

Ah yes, 11+ years and counting...

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19980527/press012917.html

Tdave

04-16-2009, 02:28 PM

If the proposed standard has been around for 11 years, why didn't Tesla adopt it? If there are competing proposed standards, why didn't Tesla select one of those?

vfx

04-16-2009, 02:42 PM

If you are interested in the J1772 connector, read this page:

J1772 (http://teva2.com/J1772.html)

http://teva2.com/Graphics/J1772/f50e2_yazaki17722.png http://teva2.com/Graphics/J1772/98ff1_yazaki17721.png

http://teva2.com/Graphics/J1772/98ff1_coulombphotoii.png

Another Forum Thread. (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/evdl-j1772-standard-29736.html?s=eea7d0cf6284b926f08daed23e3be213&amp)

graham

04-16-2009, 03:35 PM

If the proposed standard has been around for 11 years, why didn't Tesla adopt it? If there are competing proposed standards, why didn't Tesla select one of those?

From vfx' link, it seems that the J1772 connector is presently only designed for low to medium power charging.

This new Yazaki coupler will, however, be able to deliver much more than the former Level II power limit (6.6 kW), perhaps as much as 16-19 kW. This medium power capability is necessary in order to obtain reasonable charge times with upcoming long-range BEVs. Tesla Motors will be shipping their Roadster in 2008 with a 52 kWhr battery. With the former Level II charge limits of 6.6 kW, charge times for a 52 kWhr battery would become unreasonably long, perhaps as much as 7-8 hours. This charge time duration would extend beyond preferred late-evening low-cost Utility rate schedules, while a medium-power 3-4 hour charge could be scheduled to “fit” better into these upcoming schedules.

It is assumed that high power capable EVs (50+ kW) would now make use of a separate on-vehicle higher-power inlet standard that is yet to be developed. Overall, the attractiveness of all PHEVs and BEVs making use of an consistent, almost worldwide J1772-Yazaki-based low-to-medium power connection standard more than outweighs the loss of potential high power capability with the former Avcon connector. The need for and attractiveness of higher “fast charge” power capability for EVs is not yet proven to be necessary to market BEVs.

(emphasis mine)

DDB

04-16-2009, 04:51 PM

From vfx' link, it seems that the J1772 connector is presently only designed for low to medium power charging.

(emphasis mine)

Terrific explanation for us laymen. I don't much care to see a HD v. Blu-Ray battle especially when one would have to pay for a charging station of sorts...

doug

04-16-2009, 05:35 PM

The conspiracy theory I've heard is that established automakers have pushed for keeping the standard only capable of relatively low power in order to advantage plug-in hybrids over full EVs.

vfx

04-16-2009, 07:22 PM

The conspiracy theory I've heard is that established automakers have pushed for keeping the standard only capable of relatively low power in order to advantage plug-in hybrids over full EVs.

Or that they have bollocks up the works so that no standard has been decided on in 13 years throwing (yet another) wrench into the new EV paradigm.

stopcrazypp

04-16-2009, 07:48 PM

From vfx' link, it seems that the J1772 connector is presently only designed for low to medium power charging.
(emphasis mine)

That's pretty disappointing, it's not even capable of the 4 hour charge in the Roadster, much less the 1 hour charge coming later. That means there is no incentive for Tesla to use this standardized connector.

I was hoping the standardized connector would be capable of high power charging so all it takes is a simple adapter for the 110V/220V and the connector can be used directly with an external charger for faster charges. Having two connectors will be a hassle, especially if the high power connector is likely to be standardized also sometime in the future.

TEG

04-20-2009, 08:32 AM

Electric Vehicle Makers Agree on a Universal Standard Plug for Charging | Technomix | Fast Company (http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit-eaton/technomix/universal-standard-plug-agreement-big-news-electric-cars)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3572/3458434375_40bb5b82da.jpg

Kevin Harney

04-20-2009, 08:41 AM

standard 400V supply - that is great news right ?

vfx

04-20-2009, 10:30 AM

E-car industry agrees on one plug to rule them all : Cars General (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/264949,e-car-industry-agrees-on-one-plug-to-rule-them-all.html)

400V <64 amps.

graham

04-20-2009, 10:39 AM

From vfx' linked article:

Electric car makers and power companies are to unveil this week a standard Europe-wide power plug to recharge the batteries of electric vehicles, the German newspaper Die Welt reported Sunday. The agreement avoids the plug-and-socket problems familiar to travellers who take small appliances such as hair-dryers abroad.
It will be announced at the five-day Hanover Fair, a big annual expo of industrial products which opens for business on Monday in Germany. Die Welt said the standard had been agreed by 20 big companies.

The connectors were designed for a 400-volt power supply with up to 63 amperes of current.

So is this a version of the J1772 standard, or something new?

Kevin Harney

04-20-2009, 10:45 AM

400 V & 63A - will that fit the build of the Model S quick charger ? Does that mean it is DC ? Will the Roadsters be retrofitted or retrofitable ? Is TM on board with this decision ?

doug

04-20-2009, 10:45 AM

If that works, how about we just adopt that. (The metric system too while we're at it.)

I'm curious what the signal protocol is for the SAE connector. Seems like something more for IEEE rather than SAE.

.

vfx

04-20-2009, 10:54 AM

So is this a version of the J1772 standard, or something new?

I looked all over for an image or something about the company or the Event but nothing.

I humbly hand it over to our European searchers or the unmatchable TEG.

TEG

04-20-2009, 11:52 AM

GM lobbies for electric car plug standardization (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/20/gm-lobbies-for-electric-car-plug-standardization/)

Coulomb Technologies Showcasing SAE J1772 Networked Charging Stations for Plug-in Vehicles | EcoSilly (http://www.ecosilly.com/2008/12/02/coulomb-technologies-showcasing-sae-j1772-networked-charging-stations-for-plug-in-vehicles/)

...

This new Yazaki coupler will, however, be able to deliver much more than the former Level II power limit (6.6 kW), perhaps as much as 16-19 kW. This medium power capability is necessary in order to obtain reasonable charge times with upcoming long-range BEVs. Tesla Motors will be shipping their Roadster in 2008 with a 52 kWhr battery. With the former Level II charge limits of 6.6 kW, charge times for a 52 kWhr battery would become unreasonably long, perhaps as much as 7-8 hours. This charge time duration would extend beyond preferred late-evening low-cost Utility rate schedules, while a medium-power 3-4 hour charge could be scheduled to “fit” better into these upcoming schedules.

It is assumed that high power capable EVs (50+ kW) would now make use of a separate on-vehicle higher-power inlet standard that is yet to be developed. Overall, the attractiveness of all PHEVs and BEVs making use of an consistent, almost worldwide J1772-Yazaki-based low-to-medium power connection standard more than outweighs the loss of potential high power capability with the former Avcon connector. The need for and attractiveness of higher “fast charge” power capability for EVs is not yet proven to be necessary to market BEVs...

http://www.geocities.com/evcharging/images/level2plus.pdf

J1772 (http://teva2.com/J1772.html)

...The J1772 standard specifies a specific 5-pin plug (two power, two signal, one ground) for single-phase supply up to 80A....

TEG

04-20-2009, 11:57 AM

400 V & 63A - will that fit the build of the Model S quick charger ? Does that mean it is DC ? Will the Roadsters be retrofitted or retrofitable ? Is TM on board with this decision ?

I don't think so. I think J1772 is single phase AC only.

400V@63A is 25.2kW
If the 'S' has a >70kWh pack then that is still about 3 hours to recharge, not 45 minutes.

I think Tesla QuickCharge will be a different connector, probably like 480V@125amp (45 minutes to recharge 42kW 160 mile pack, 1 hour for 60kWh 230 mile pack, and 70 minutes for the 70kWh 300 mile pack).
^^^just guessing though^^^

EVnut

04-20-2009, 12:08 PM

Yeah this wonder connector is still not capable of the "super fast" charging that Tesla is talking about. High voltage for sure, but not very high current. This is NOT J1772.

J1772 level two is single phase up to 80A. Quite a bit more umph than this will be capable of.

TEG

04-20-2009, 12:15 PM

I'm curious what the signal protocol is for the SAE connector. Seems like something more for IEEE rather than SAE.

I am not sure what they are doing with "new improved J1772", but some details of the original (somewhat low tech) standard can be found here (http://www.aracnet.com/%7Ermerwin/Avcon/AvconBoxWiring.pdf).

...The control box sends a 1 kHz 12 volt square wave through a 1000 ohm resistor
to the pilot pin. The duty cycle of the square wave is set to indicate how much current can be supplied
from the AC mains. In the AVCON box the duty cycle is fixed at 50% indicating that 30 Amps (RMS) is
available. Therefore the circuit must supply at least 30 Amps since some chargers measure the square
wave to determine how much current they can draw. An outlet which can only supply 20 amps will have
a square wave with a smaller duty cycle and one which can supply more a larger one. The return current
from the pilot pin is through a resistor and a diode in the EV to frame ground. If the frame ground
connection is ever broken the box will immediately open the contactor...Apparently Better Place views this RWE/Daimler IEC 'standard' as competition, not standardization (http://planet.betterplace.com/forum/topics/better-place-competition-2?page=1&commentId=2500550%3AComment%3A38152&x=1#2500550Comment38152):

...The alliance of more than 20 leading European suppliers and auto companies are working together on laying the foundation for widespread introduction of electric cars...
...
As Better Place was not invited to join this alliance it seems to be a strong competition at least in Europe.
I still hope that the alliance will work together with Better Place and not against.
But my concern is that the big corporations involved want to takeover the business model of providing mobility.
And as these big corporations first want to secure their business the alliance might become another
oligopoly in this area (like the opec countries) and this is for sure not the best for the consumer...

TEG

04-20-2009, 12:40 PM

http://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-t/oth/06/1B/T061B00000200101PPTE.ppt
http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/MENNEKES+and+EV.pdf

e-mobility Berlin / MINI-E-Berlin...both projects will use the CEEplus (http://www.sks.fi/INET/sks/tuote.nsf/documents/4C5CACA2887D607DC2256E92002CDB13/$file/MENNEKES_CEEplus_2004_GB.pdf) system...So, I think we have competing standards:

IEC 62196-1 <== e-mobility. 400V 3-phase. Primarily Europe

IEC 62196-2
SAE J1772 <== Single phase AC. Primarily USA and Japan

Basically SAE is USA, & IEC is Europe. They tend to say that they will coordinate, but then end up doing different things.

http://www.ecosilly.com/2008/12/02/coulomb-technologies-showcasing-sae-j1772-networked-charging-stations-for-plug-in-vehicles/

The {J1772} connector may also become the standard in Japan, where the SAE and the Japanese standard body are making good cooperation. Although a proposal has been made to incorporate the SAE connector interface in IEC standards although Italy and Germany are proposing alternative connectors. (Design for single-phase power is problematic for countries where 3-phase is also used, notes Cyriacus Bleijs, Chairman IEC TC69.)

Here was an attempt at a collaborative concept (http://www.ecs-five.ch/parkcharge/documents/BOXSPECE.pdf).

vfx

04-20-2009, 10:12 PM

BYD (?) (http://gas2.org/2009/04/14/the-chinese-byd-f3dm-first-mass-produced-electric-car-fails-with-consumers/) http://go635254.s3.amazonaws.com/gas2/files/2009/04/byd1.jpg

TEG

04-21-2009, 09:18 AM

VEVA - Report on Activities of Committees for Standards on Charging Infrastructure (http://www.veva.bc.ca/charging2009/index.php)

After some name googling on who's who and is involved with the SAE J1772 standards committee for EV charging, I found that Yazaki is giving a report next week to the committe on design considerations. Yazaki make lots of automotive connectors. There is also current discussion on Level 3 fast charging plug designs. They have a very different connector than the old J1772 standard that was popular on the Ford Ranger EV. The ongoing debate within this committee will have impact on the final cordset for charging to be adopted by most OEM automakers. Deliberations apparently are expected to conclude by March 2010. The J1772 committee deliberations are closed discussion, but by looking at who the committee members are and the companies they are with and their backgrounds and interests and other papers published some implications are apparent. It appears that deliberations are far from complete. An attempt at international standardizations is going on. A new plug may be in the works. 220V / 32A is a driver from Europe. It seems all the right players are at the table.
- Don Chandler

SAE J1772 Meeting agenda (http://www.sae.org/servlets/works/committeeHome.do?comtID=TEVHYB3#)

Also the secretarty of the IEC T69 committee Peter Van Den Bossche had these papers of interest on his website:

Charging Voltages and Power Levels (http://evtransportal.org/P_Van_den_Bossche2.pdf)
On the history of charging (http://etecmc10.vub.ac.be/publications/2008VandenBossche237.pdf)
On defining and developing standards for EV charging (http://evtransportal.org/P_Van_den_Bossche1.pdf)
On EV CHarging Equipment Design (http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/98-09-23_KATELEY.PDF)

Related current standards:

IEC TC69
ISO TC22 SC21 [45]
SAE J1772
National Electric Code
Canadian Electric Code Part 1 Section 86 and Part 2 for chargers.
UL

doug

04-21-2009, 09:32 PM

I am not sure what they are doing with "new improved J1772", but some details of the original (somewhat low tech) standard can be found here (http://www.aracnet.com/%7Ermerwin/Avcon/AvconBoxWiring.pdf).

...The control box sends a 1 kHz 12 volt square wave through a 1000 ohm resistor to the pilot pin. The duty cycle of the square wave is set to indicate how much current can be supplied from the AC mains.
That square wave duty cycle is how the current Tesla HPC pilot signal works as well.

You'd think the new connector standard would be capable of some two-way communication for things like negotiating payment, V2G, and whatever else.

TEG

04-21-2009, 11:10 PM

This sounds familiar:

SAE World Congress -- Autoblog Green (http://www.autobloggreen.com/category/SAE-World-Congress/)

SAE 2009: SAE J1772 plug standard could be finalized by this fall (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/21/sae-2009-sae-j1772-plug-standard-could-be-finalized-by-this-fal/)...
...The connector is designed for single phase electrical systems with up to 240 V and 70 A such as those used in North American and Japan....
...This plug is unrelated to the recently announced European plug standard. (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/20/automakers-and-utilities-reach-agreement-on-plug-standard/) That plug is designed for 400 V three phase applications.Lots of good discussion here:
Do you have 220 Volts available at home? - ApteraForum.com (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1152&page=3)
240v charging and the electrical code - Page 4 - ApteraForum.com - Aptera Car Forum (http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1936&page=4)

http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/4062_3656_ZOM.jpg

Check all the comments here too:
Plug-in Standards Necessary for Consumer Acceptance of Electric Vehicles Like the Chevy Volt | GM FastLane (http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/04/plug-in_standards_necessary_for_consumer_acceptance_of_electric_vehicles_like_the_che vy_volt.html)

From what I can tell, the 2009 version of J1772 will have a two way much more intelligent signal interface, but it hasn't been published yet. Once they ratify it, it may show up for sale on a site like this:
http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=J1772&HIER_CD=TEVHYB&WIP_SW=YES
http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&HIER_CD=TEVHYB&PROD_CD=J1773&WIP_SW=YES

TEG

04-22-2009, 08:37 AM

From Clipper Creek's Home Page (http://www.clippercreek.net/) :

...ClipperCreek's products are compatible with the BMW Mini E (http://www.miniusa.com/#/learn/minimalism/MINIE-m) and The Tesla Roadster (http://www.teslamotors.com/) and all SAE compatible vehicles coming to market soon, including the Chevy Volt (http://www.gm-volt.com/), and the Nissan Cube Minicar. ...MINI E charge station initial site inspection | Revenge of the Electric Car (http://revengeoftheelectriccar.com/mini-e-charge-station-initial-site-inspection/)

...the Clipper Creek charge station ... is to be protected by a 60amp feed breaker installed at the main panel. ...

TEG

04-22-2009, 12:11 PM

I'm curious what the signal protocol is for the SAE connector.

While searching for such information I found various references to PDFs from SAE (and EPRI) workgroup sessions. They included links to documents which are no longer online. My guess is that various proposals are in the process of being approved, but those involved with the groups are trying to prevent the details from getting wide public distribution just yet. Besides, SAE tries to sell such publications once they are finalized.

Some example documents that were once online, but removed are these:
http:/ / et.epri.com/documents/E229630_04_Kissel_June_2008.pdf
http:/ / et.epri.com/documents/10.02.08_IWC_PHEV_presentations/PHEVWG_minutes_Atlanta.pdf
http:/ / et.epri.com/documents/12.11.08_IWC_PHEV_presentations/02_Kissel_December_2008.pdf

Also, many sites linked to this old article which has also been removed:
http:/ / greencarcongress.com/2008/12/coulomb-techn-1.html

Some details remain in google cache, but I won't post links to that.

Note, even the older J1772 documents talk of "Serial Data Transfer", but they were for high speed "Level 3" charging, and the actual production units only did Level 1 & Level 2 and didn't implement the advanced data transfer features.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructure/finalsaej1772.doc (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructure/finalsaej1772.doc)

... 5.5 Serial Data Transfer - Coupler contact numbers 7, 8, and 9 are provided to allow an exchange of serial data information between the EV and the EVSE based on SAE J1850 (http://www.interfacebus.com/Automotive_SAE_J1850_Bus.html), SAE J2178 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sae.org%2Ftechnical%2Fstandards%2FJ2178%2F1_200407&ei=j0PySaHiD6H6lAeEpe22DA&usg=AFQjCNEo3cP8FtLP4Atc4fr1dwWynh-ddA), and SAE J2293 (http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/J2293/1_200807). The serial data link is mandatory for DC Charging to allow the vehicle to control the charge process. The serial data link is optional for AC Level 2 and AC Level 1 - i.e. for displaying charge related or other information to the user. ...

TEG

04-22-2009, 03:35 PM

Electric Vehicle Standardisation (http://www.lhoon.com/Nornen/art4.html)

...

The International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC)
The International Organisation for Standardisation (ISO)
Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)
Japanese Electric Vehicle Association (JEVA)

I don't really find much mention of the IEEE related to any of this.

---

Some ETEC publications:
The Evolving Standardization Landscape for Electrically Propelled Vehicles (http://etecmc10.vub.ac.be/publications/2008VandenBossche235.pdf)
A View On Current Trends In Electric Vehicle Standardisation (http://etecmc10.vub.ac.be/publications/evs15nornen.pdf)

---

Link bonanza:
Electric Vehicle ReCharging Information (http://evtransportal.org/cerip.html)

vfx

04-22-2009, 05:11 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I give you TEG, the human search machine.

:biggrin:

dpeilow

04-23-2009, 04:47 AM

Mahalo eat your heart out...

TEG

04-23-2009, 08:16 AM

If the proposed standard has been around for 11 years, why didn't Tesla adopt it? If there are competing proposed standards, why didn't Tesla select one of those?

There is something to be said for going your own way when everyone else seems to be bogged down in committee.

It feels like there is some convergence happening now, and hopefully we end up with more standardization, but I gather Tesla remains ready to stay independent if the rest of the industry doesn't get their act together first.

vfx

04-23-2009, 09:02 AM

There is something to be said for going your own way when everyone else seems to be bogged down in committee.

Also, would you want to launch a tech company product like the Roadster with 5 year old technology?
In the tech world things change so fast that having the connector being slogged in committee might have been the best thing that could have happened.

TEG

04-24-2009, 07:40 PM

I tried to reconcile and better present a lot of this information here:
TEG.NET: Conductive Electric Vehicle Charging Standards (http://teg.net/EV/charging.html)

vfx

04-26-2009, 03:13 PM

It's HERE!
(http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/26/sae-2009-yazakis-booth-proudly-displays-j1772-connector/)
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/04/sae-yazaki-7.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/04/sae-yazaki-8.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/04/sae-yazaki-1.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/04/sae-yazaki-5.jpg

TEG

04-26-2009, 04:47 PM

Thanks, VFX!

TEG

04-27-2009, 03:25 PM

Energy/Environment - Automotive Engineering International Online (http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/elect/6216)
The coupler consists of:
• Two pins for power (ac line 1 and ac line 2/neutral)
• One pin for ground
• One pin for signals related to the amount of current allowed for the particular vehicle model being charged
• One pin for preventing the car from being moved while charging is under way.

vfx

04-27-2009, 03:35 PM

• One pin for preventing the car from being moved while charging is under way.

That pin will have to be attached to some really strong cable!
:eek:

TEG

04-27-2009, 03:47 PM

LOL!.... Obviously it is a signal pin to keep the car electronically in "park" while charging.

vfx

04-28-2009, 09:08 AM

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-health/images/2009-02/hybrid-car.jpg

Looks kinda homebrew.

vfx

04-29-2009, 07:48 PM

Wiring Wars: The Race to Charge the World's EVs (http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10001091/wiring-wars-the-race-to-charge-the-worlds-evs/)

It looked for a while that Better Place would monopolize world recharging networks, but other equally aggressive players have emerged, including Coulomb and Project Get Ready...

TEG

05-09-2009, 12:09 AM

Green Fuels Forecast (http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=706)

SAE 2009: J1772 charging connector standard to be ratified in 2009
...
The proposed plug was tested and evaluated by the task force which includes representatives from General Motors, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Tesla and other companies throughout 2008.
...
The automakers that are participating in the process as well as others have committed to using the standard plug on upcoming electric vehicles including the 2011 Chevrolet Volt, Chrysler's EVs and more. Tesla has also agreed to retrofit its vehicles vehicles with the standard plug.
...
The proposed connector is designed to handle charging from single phase AC circuits with up to 240 V and 70 A. The plug supports proximity sensing to prevent drive-away while plugged in as well as communications over the power-lines to allow the vehicle to communicate with the charge station.
...

BBHighway

05-09-2009, 01:14 AM

"Tesla has also agreed to retrofit its vehicles vehicles with the standard plug."

I wonder if this will be a freebie or if the owners will have to pay for it. It would be a hit to Tesla to pay for it when they need their cash to get the Model S to market.

Both the cars and the chargers will need to be reworked. It will be quite a while before a lot of J1772 public chargers are available so there''s no immediate rush.

Tdave

05-09-2009, 07:26 AM

I hope Tesla's switches to the new connector in the production line soon.

graham

05-09-2009, 08:36 AM

I wonder if this will be a freebie or if the owners will have to pay for it. It would be a hit to Tesla to pay for it when they need their cash to get the Model S to market.

I would be very surprised if they did not charge for it.

vfx

05-09-2009, 10:10 AM

Lot's of really good news in there. Too bad there is no mention of theft deterrent.

I could see Tesla splitting the cost with the owner paying for parts and Tesla supplying labor for the retrofit.

green01

05-09-2009, 03:25 PM

I thought last week's Green Car Congress ClipperCreek Tesla charger announcement was old news.

But maybe the news is "The TS-70 is the industry’s first product to market that incorporates the SAE-J1772 standard". And Tesla's well into making a transition.

Green Car Congress: ClipperCreek to Supply Power Control Stations for Tesla Motors (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/clippercreek-tesla-20090502.html)

dpeilow

05-14-2009, 04:58 AM

Elektromotive unveils billing system chargepoint for EVs at EVS24 conference (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/13/elektromotive-unveils-billing-system-chargepoint-for-evs-at-evs2/)

Elektromotive has announced what it calls the world's first billable three phase fast charge station. The ElektroBay can supply up to 32 amps at 240 V to allow for faster charging than what is possible with other charge points.

The single unit is the first of its kind to provide two separate five-pin power sockets, both able to accommodate the all-new Mennekes plug, which is anticipated to become standardised on all electric commercial vehicles.

This so-called all-new Mennekes plug (http://www.mennekes.co.uk/web/screen?ID=mennekes/live-browse-fresh/[lrncontent,[content/pres.cnt.common-folder/menP288051:112f74cd1db:-7c3d/0/,content/exp.def-live/enuk/\]]) looks to me like just the 5 pole version of the IEC 60309 standard.

dpeilow

05-14-2009, 05:25 AM

The reason these guys matter: Green Car Congress: Renault-Nissan Alliance and Electromotive to Collaborate on Charging Infrastructure (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/renault-nissan.html)

To date, it has installed more than 40 charging bays in London and a further 40 in other major UK cities. The Brighton-based company also exports Elektrobays to Sweden, Holland, Germany and Ireland.

The Renault-Nissan Alliance aims to be the global leader in zero-emission mobility and has already started zero-emission initiatives in Israel, Denmark, Portugal, the Principality of Monaco, as well as the US States of Tennessee and Oregon and Sonoma County in northern California and in Japan with the Prefecture of Kanagawa and the City of Yokohama.

So if they are partnering, we could see these Elektrobays popping up everywhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is no need for a new SAE or whatever standard because the IEC 60309 is in use pretty much all over the world for a multitude of applications. It is a long-established and fully formed standard for high power plugs and sockets. Until now, the only thing missing was an ability to communicate with a device on the end - but oh look:

In 2008, Elektromotive integrated the latest Power Line Communication (PLC) technology (developed by EDF), into its road-side charging stations. PLC integration allows the Elektrobay to communicate with a recharging vehicle by sending and receiving digital signals via the power cable without the need for additional wires. The resulting ‘conversation’ can exchange data and discuss billing, power requirement identification, transaction security and safety.

So if the SAE thing persists, I foresee a subset of North America doing one thing and the rest of the world following a different route.

dpeilow

05-14-2009, 07:47 AM

And then again, we could have a format war: Autocar - Euro-wide electric charging plan (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/ECC-C1/240042/)

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/ECC/C1/1259943148421356x236.jpg

German power company RWE is attempting to standardise the charging infrastructure required for the large-scale adoption of electric cars across Europe, including a standard plug to connect cars to charging points.

The company intends to begin work on the system during the second half of this year, and has already shown a prototype of the plug. Compatible with a domestic 230-volt or the more powerful three-phase 400-volt supply, it can help charge an electric car’s battery much faster than a domestic supply can, as well as offering a secure and weatherproof connection.

RWE claims that using one of its charging points with 400 volts can cut the charging time of an electric car with a 20kWh battery from the six hours needed with a domestic socket to one hour.

The technology has been developed with 20 European car makers, including Daimler, BMW, VW, GM and Fiat, and Japanese manufacturers with a European base, such as Toyota. RWE is testing the charging stations in Berlin, using Smart Fortwos.

vfx

05-14-2009, 08:58 AM

I guess the good news is that swapping out a car socket it easier than moving the driver side.

*sigh*

vfx

05-20-2009, 07:41 PM

AGB
The European standard charging plug for cars is selected after Mennekes design (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/20/the-european-standard-charging-plug-for-cars-is-selected-after-m/)
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/05/mennekesplug.jpg
Getting all the interested parties to agree on a standard plug isn't an easy thing, so some initiatives had been taken to make the Mennekes plug the standard model, at least in Europe....In the U.S., the J1772 connector will likely be the new standard for plug-in vehicles.

dpeilow

05-21-2009, 12:16 AM

Ah, this is the plug in the RWE story and the Mennekes plug mentioned in the Elektrobay press release. Call off the format war.

So they've gone for a de facto standard over using an existing open one. Interesting.

At least it is three phase and 63A (=> roughly 45kW). Just a shame it couldn't be based on the 125A or higher versions of the IEC60309 plugs out there.

I wonder how waterproof it is? It looks similar in nature to the IP44 plugs from the above standard, only.

TEG

05-21-2009, 10:10 AM

Call off the format war.
In Europe at least, but we still have J1772 wanting to be a global standard.

dpeilow

05-22-2009, 10:19 AM

European 'standard' e-car power connector details emerge â€¢ Register Hardware (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05/21/rwe_plug/)

http://regmedia.co.uk/2009/05/21/02_sm.jpg

The plug in use.

http://regmedia.co.uk/2009/05/21/01_sm.jpg

Pin layout.

It will even be used to charge the Tesla-supplied batteries on Daimler AG’s Smart electric vehicle

Stuart

05-24-2009, 09:56 AM

Looks like there's a new standard coming, which could lower prices.

SAE 2009: SAE J1772 plug standard could be finalized by this fall (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/21/sae-2009-sae-j1772-plug-standard-could-be-finalized-by-this-fal/)
Sae J1772 — Autoblog Green (http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/sae+j1772/)

The connector is designed for single phase electrical systems with up to 240 V and 70 A such as those used in North American and Japan. The round 43 mm diameter connector has five pins and will support communication over power lines, to identify the vehicle and control charging. The connector is designed to withstand up to 10,000 connection/disconnection cycles and exposure to all kinds of elements. The supporting manufacturers have committed to using the new plug including GM for the Volt and its derivatives. Tesla has even committed to changing over to the standard plug and retrofitting existing vehicles.

So today's Roadster connector is not the standard one, but apparently Tesla may be willing to retrofit existing Roadsters, though it's anyone's guess how much they'll charge for that.

TEG

05-24-2009, 12:49 PM

TEG

05-26-2009, 12:00 AM

Don't screw up plug-ins - ApteraForum.com - Aptera Car Forum (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1310)

The standard for EV charging systems has been formulated by the SAE. The committee working on the standard is J1772. A standard has been in place for about ten years or more. What the committee is doing now is updating the standard to accommodate Tesla Motors products which go to 70A. The old standard would go to 50A. We had to redefine the pilot signal interface to communicate the new higher currents to the vehicle.

vfx

05-26-2009, 07:19 AM

Don't screw up plug-ins - ApteraForum.com - Aptera Car Forum (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1310)

[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Great thread, Thanks for cross posting it, TEG.

Not sure I agree with the breakaway plug idea. Disabling the car while charging seems sufficient given the cost of such a configuration and the infrequency of outside cable damage from other cars and human interaction.

vfx

05-26-2009, 07:34 AM

The Aptura thread pointed out that this http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/04/sae-yazaki-5.jpg

says 30 AMPs
:confused:

doug

05-26-2009, 09:32 AM

Note that TEG's quote is almost a year old. Yeah 30 amps, is way too low. Especially as pure EV's increase their energy capacity. For the current incarnation of the Aptera 2e, it doesn't matter so much. Their battery is so small, 120V 15A gives a reasonable charge rate (mph).

TEG

05-26-2009, 10:59 AM

Note that TEG's quote is almost a year old. Yeah 30 amps, is way too low.
Yes, I saw that the quote was old, but has the situation changed?
Will J1772-2009 offer greater than 32amps for Tesla charging?
What was the result of all those discussions about changes to the pilot signal?

Does anyone know when we will see J1772-2009 public charging stations?
When (if?) will Tesla switch to using that type of connector?

vfx

05-26-2009, 05:16 PM

Industry Nears Plug Standard for EVs (http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_industry_nears_plug/)

J1772 calls for a 5-pin design with a charging level of up to 80 amps/240 volts and 16 amps/120 volts. It also sets parameters for power delivery and limiting electromagnetic interference, as well as complying with Federal Communication Commission frequency standards.

TEG

05-28-2009, 04:39 PM

The connector piece on the end of the HPC, 240 MC and 120 MC is proprietary to Tesla. The company that makes them will not sell them to anyone else.

If they are so expensive, and so hard to find, I would worry that the ones sitting out in the open at the public charging stations could be at risk. Another reason why a cheap/generic/standard end on a public charger would be a good idea. Unlike some other secure pedestals like Coulomb there is no locking door provision on the Tesla public chargers, is there?

Coulomb key card required:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/coulombCharger.jpg

TEG

06-01-2009, 11:03 AM

Amsterdam gets the first Coulomb EV charging stations in Europe (http://finallygreen.net/2009/06/01/amsterdam-gets-the-first-coulomb-ev-charging-stations-in-europe/)

vfx

06-08-2009, 10:02 PM

Toyota Industries will sell electric car charging stations this summer (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/08/toyota-industries-will-sell-electric-car-charging-stations-this/)

Toyota Industries has unveiled its new public charging station that goes on sale this summer in Japan. Toyota developed this unit with Nitto Electric Works and it's designed to feed single phase electric power at 200 V and 16 A. The charging units will cost ¥450,000 or about $4,600 at current exchange rates.

TEG

06-08-2009, 10:08 PM

It better be J1772-2009 based. Sort of assuming it will be...

vfx

06-09-2009, 06:51 PM

What?
Automobile Electric Charging Station | PlugStop.com | Recharge Your Car Anywhere (http://plugstop.com/)

TEG

06-12-2009, 11:59 PM

iMiEV J1772 cable (http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/mitsubishi-imiev-production-model/2062458/full/)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/06/33_i-miev-1280.jpg

vfx

06-13-2009, 06:15 AM

Cool!
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/06/32_i-miev-1280.jpg

But, ???
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/06/35_i-miev-1280.jpg

ra-san

06-13-2009, 10:14 AM

I've been thinking what I'm about to type since the first time I saw the new standard:

You know, I can understand the drive to make it look like a gas pump handle I guess... but is it just me, or does it look gimmicky and clunky compared to he roadster connector? Oh well, price of "progress" I suppose. Hope it feels more solid than it looks.

vfx

06-16-2009, 06:16 PM

Charge Point Network

A Car Charging Infrastructure Takes Shape
(http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/16/energy-and-global-warming-news-car-charging-infrastructure-takes-shape-siemens-munich-re-study-555-billion-100-gw-concentrated-solar-sahara-desertec/)
Having shipped hundreds of electric vehicle charging stations, and with repeat orders now coming in from Europe, Coulomb Technologies, a privately-held Silicon Valley company, expects to be profitable by the 2010 introduction of the Chevy Volt, according to its chief executive, Richard Lowenthal.

(Mr. Lowenthal appears in the video, explaining the company’s ChargePoint Network.)

“Our plan was to sell a thousand stations, but we will probably double that,” he told Green Inc. last week after the company secured its third Bay Area order this year. “Our company is structured to be profitable based on early adopters.”

Founded in 2007, Coulomb is looking to crack the chicken-and-egg riddle that bedeviled the hydrogen fuel cell industry. Without a refueling infrastructure, consumers won’t buy vehicles. But no one invested in refueling stations without potential customers on the road.

These guys are doing a few of what we have been talking about, too bad it's only a pay for use system.
IkXm-7lR1D4

malcolm

06-19-2009, 06:41 AM

Padlockable sockets with integrated switch. Available in 16, 32 and 63A variants.

http://www.electrikahost.co.uk/products/m/man-0552/pdfcat/leg07-458.pdf

vfx

06-26-2009, 10:08 AM

http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=1828&fPicId=116120http://vne-resource.iol.co.za/30/picdb/f/e/116120

dpeilow

06-26-2009, 11:25 AM

That's one of the common Elektrobay posts that you see across London. EDF have involvement with them.

You are far more likely to see a G-Wizz plugged into one than a plug in Prius.

vfx

06-26-2009, 11:49 AM

I like the part that looks like cast aluminum. Smooth and rugged.

Will Martin need to make a Foundry pigtail for this plug or will Tesla have a equivalent "MC120" for it?

Come on J1772! (say it like throwing dice in craps)

dpeilow

06-26-2009, 12:19 PM

That's the UK domestic plug, so Tesla's lowest common denominator charger will no doubt have it (240V, 13A).

EVnut

06-26-2009, 05:03 PM

These guys are doing a few of what we have been talking about, too bad it's only a pay for use system.

A Coulomb rep has called to speak with me about their ideas....and I've failed to do that. :( Bad Darell.

One thing that this vid reminded me of - when you sign up for the service, you choose "night charging", "grid friendly" or "anytime." Deciding what you want in advance is a tough one. What if you night charge 95% of the time, but want the option of a daytime charge on one trip? Seems to me that you should be able to charge any time, and just pay different rates for the different times - not sign up in advance for what you think you'll want to do. The whole concept of this privatized way to charge is that EV drivers will be happy to gasoline rates for charging an EV. I'm not sure that's going to be the case. People who drive EVs already know that home charging is where it's at. Those who haven't experienced EVs think that public charging is a MUST for everybody. And yes, I realize that there are those with no place to charge at home...

And now I'm rambling.

dpeilow

06-27-2009, 02:56 AM

http://www.elektromotive.com/resources/EBConnect_Diagram.pdf

Note "dynamic site availability reporting"

dpeilow

06-29-2009, 05:52 AM

Underwriters Laboratories approves SAE J1772 charging plug (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/28/underwriters-laboratories-approves-sae-j1772-charging-plug/)

The SAE standard J1772 charging connector for plug-in vehicles passed another threshold on its way to finalization this week. Underwriters Laboratories has completed its certification testing on the connector developed by Yazaki. The UL testing has verified the safety and durability characteristics of the 5-pin connector. Virtually all of the automakers from the U.S., Japan and Europe are planning to use the standard plug on upcoming electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles, including in the Chevy Volt.

bobw

06-29-2009, 12:47 PM

Does it seem GM's using it already?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/3658614450_b9c2b16c9e.jpg (http://gm-volt.com/galleries/photo/3658614450/preproductionchevyvolt226jpg.html)

EVnut

07-01-2009, 09:12 AM

For that matter, it *seems* that Tesla is as well. They all look very similar, and can all have different "shells." The devil is in the details.

bobw

07-01-2009, 09:39 AM

Until a little while ago, pictures of the the Volt charging port looked like this:

http://www.gm-volt.com/e/volt_port.jpg (http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/06/the-production-chevy-volt-has-one-charging-port-and-unnamed-object-identified/)

Here's how it looked on the concept car:

http://www.gm-volt.com/images/vplug.jpg (http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/21/chevy-volt-chief-designer-bob-boniface-on-one-versus-two-charing-ports-with-poll/)

Now it looks like the first picture I posted.

Changes cost money. It would make sense for GM to avoid unnecessary changes. If they didn't have a final socket design but knew they had to move the port would they go to that much trouble?

Young

07-01-2009, 01:44 PM

EVnut

07-01-2009, 09:15 PM

Yes, I read from somewhere that Volt will be using J1772 standard.
They'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't! (not that they don't have exeprience with that...)

mt2

07-02-2009, 09:13 PM

They'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't! (not that they don't have exeprience with that...)
I half expected GM to invent their own "standard". And then change it each model year.

TEG

07-05-2009, 11:58 PM

Sonoma County Welcomes Electric Vehicles With Plans For 200 Charging Stations : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/sonoma-county-welcomes-electric-vehicles-with-plans-for-200-charging-stations.php?dcitc=th_rss_cars)

vfx

07-09-2009, 08:23 PM

USA NC

McCharging

Watts are free at new McDonald's - Technology - News & Observer (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/technology/story/1600667.html)

CARY -- When it opens Tuesday, the McDonald's at 1299 Kildaire Farm Road will be the country's first McDonald's with an electric vehicle charging station.

malcolm

07-10-2009, 01:54 AM

Fast food and slow charging?

220 V, 16A for 0.5 hours = 1.76 kWh

Is anyone going to want to stay longer?

ChargeIt!

07-10-2009, 07:49 AM

Fast food and slow charging?

220 V, 16A for 0.5 hours = 1.76 kWh

Is anyone going to want to stay longer?

May be that's the point ? Slow charging = More Food ?

vfx

07-17-2009, 09:14 AM

European
http://www.mennekes.de/web/imageid?BINARYID=binary%2Fimage%2FmenP-720e0874%3A12138fce78f%3A-7fae%2Fimage%2Fjpeg%2F
http://www.mennekes.de/web/screen?ID=mennekes/default/[lrncontent,[content/pres.cnt.page-seqentry/menP-720e0874:12138fce78f:-7ff1/0/,content/exp.def-live/en/\]]

http://www.mennekes.de/web/imageid?BINARYID=binary%2Fimage%2FmenP-720e0874%3A12138fce78f%3A-7fad%2Fimage%2Fjpeg%2F

EV_de

07-17-2009, 10:48 AM

unfortunately the charger can take the 3-phase 400 V AC or at least 3x 230 V AC

vfx

07-24-2009, 04:45 PM

I'm thinking with shoes like that he will need to charge quite often.
http://action.pluginamerica.org/images/coulomb2.bmp

vfx

08-01-2009, 06:11 PM

EV Recharging - a drain on the power grid (http://www.examiner.com/x-3721-Detroit-Automotive-Technology-Examiner~y2009m7d29-EV-Recharging--a-drain-on-the-power-grid)

vfx

08-01-2009, 06:35 PM

They are now on Gen 2!

Whatever that is...

Electric Vehicle Charging Stations | EV Charging Stations | EV-Charge America (http://www.ev-chargeamerica.com/)

vfx

08-01-2009, 07:00 PM

This is a pretty information rich site:
http://www.sae.org/servlets/works/committeeHome.do?comtID=TEVHYB3#
ABG should be checking with the comities regularly (or even get on one)

doug

08-09-2009, 10:22 PM

I like these stations the power company set up in Portland. No waiting around for a special standard. Just some power outlets. Also kinda like how they're reminiscent of the old gas pumps.

PGE to Participate in Largest Electric Vehicle Project in U.S. History : Gas 2.0 (http://gas2.org/2009/08/07/pge-to-participate-in-largest-electric-vehicle-project-in-us-history/)

Mapped locations with info: Plug-in charging stations - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105780121045194528070.00046828a5301105d6c70&ll=45.518015,-122.670507&spn=0.029529,0.077162&t=h&z=14)

http://gas2.org/files/2009/08/charging-station003.jpg

For this particular location, the map gives the following info:

PGE Corporate OfficeLast Updated by PGE (http://maps.google.com/maps/user?uid=114385525239725648454&hl=en&gl=us) on Jun 19
PGE Demonstration Pilot Project
- Two 120 volt standard 20 amp outlets and two NEMA 14-50R 208 volt 40 amp outlets.

Located on the Street.

Parking fee required $1.25 per hour, unlimited as long as you pay.

121 SW Salmon St
Portland, OR 97204http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3441/3841092185_c9d9338e83_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39813552@N03/3841092185/sizes/o/)

vfx

08-10-2009, 12:22 PM

http://gas2.org/files/2009/08/charging-station003.jpg

Looks like SF CA

http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/content/images/20060726mwsf/mosconethumb.jpg

vfx

08-10-2009, 12:24 PM

This was so good I thought it should be here

Electric car future may power a charging industry | Green Business | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE57823020090809)

"There will be some pretty large players in the charging station infrastructure business who will then partner with some pretty large players in the information side of this, the IBMs of the world and others that do nationwide deployment of standardized charging stations," he predicted.

TEG

08-10-2009, 01:00 PM

Looks like SF CA

http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/content/images/20060726mwsf/mosconethumb.jpg
Your above picture (http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/content/images/20060726mwsf/moscone.jpg) is Moscone Center in SF.

Here is another photo of Moscone Center in SF:
http://www.hyperborea.org/journal/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/moscone-outside.jpg

That building is not even close in appearance to the charge location mentioned in Portland. The only similarity is the white triangular metal work to hold the awnings.

---

The one in Portland seems to have replaced this old charging spot (http://www.pluginolympia.com/new_pages/PortlandOR.htm) (same location, but older photo):
http://www.pluginolympia.com/stuff/portlandcar.jpg

PG&E != PGE

Originally Posted by doug
http://gas2.org/files/2009/08/charging-station003.jpg

At a minimum notice the Portland spot is on a brick sidewalk, and the SF photo was a cement walkway.

vfx

08-10-2009, 10:13 PM

juz spoofing....

doug

08-10-2009, 10:27 PM

ClipperCreek Announces the Shipment of Its 2000th Electric Vehicle Charge Station in the North American Market (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090810005338&newsLang=en)

vfx

08-11-2009, 08:54 AM

Say 800 went to Tesla, 600 to BMW Mini owners and half the balance went to private owners and corporate fleets, Where are the 200+ public charge stations? They should have them on a map on their website.

dpeilow

08-11-2009, 09:58 AM

By the way - this wasn't posted previously (I think), but at the EVS24 conference in Norway they had the 3 phase Elektrobay with the new European standard Mennekes plug:

http://www.evs24.org/photos/expo/mediafiles/l177.jpg (http://www.evs24.org/photos/expo/pages/page_177.html)

With 63A @ 400V on tap, this could be quite useful.

TEG

08-19-2009, 11:35 AM

Conference Raises Questions About Standards for Plug-in Cars | Hybrid Cars (http://www.hybridcars.com/fuels/conference-raises-questions-about-standards-plug-cars-25990.html)

vfx

08-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Expectations and range anxiety have a lot to do with our EV future. ... Helsel told an amusing anecdote about the experience of Tokyo Electric Power Company, which uses fast-charging for its EV utility vehicles. Drivers complained they couldn’t cover their entire route with just one charging station, so some areas were not getting serviced. The company added a second station, and suddenly the whole area was being covered—but the second station was rarely accessed. Knowing it was there was, it appears, enough.

Fast-Charging EVs: Time to Get Down to Business | BNET Auto Blog | BNET (http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10001982/fast-charging-evs-time-to-get-down-to-business/)

vfx

08-22-2009, 02:00 PM

Electric Vehicle Charging Stations. Drive completely carbon free with a solar system plus EV charging station. (http://www.solarcity.com/residential/electric-vehicle-charging-stations.aspx)

SolarCity has installed over 2,500 EV charging stations. Our Electric Vehicle Service team members are experts in optimizing charging stations based on your plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) model. We understand UL and SAE standards which will enable forward compatibility for many years to come.

I wonder how many are Tesla, Avcon, etc...

graham

08-22-2009, 02:32 PM

Err... there is a quotation on the page linked by vfx. This was a bit of paraphrasing the email I had sent them, and not an exact quote.

The sentiment was correct in that I did think they did a fantastic job.

However, I already have solar on my house - so I doubt I would ever use them for a new solar install to offset the use of my car - I already have that. What I might use them for in the future is to expand my existing installation -- not to create one from nothing as the quote implies.

vfx

08-25-2009, 05:48 PM

Vancouver

Vancouver charges ahead with electric-car plug-ins (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/07/09/bc-vancouver-electric-cars-plug-ins.html)

Vancouver city council has unanimously approved new regulations for electric vehicle charging stations.

It's an old story so apologies if it's been covered.

TEG

09-03-2009, 05:06 PM

10 Electric Car Smart Charging Players to Watch (http://earth2tech.com/2009/08/31/13-electric-car-smart-charging-players-to-watch/)

Tdave

09-03-2009, 05:27 PM

10 Electric Car Smart Charging Players to Watch (http://earth2tech.com/2009/08/31/13-electric-car-smart-charging-players-to-watch/)

Umm, why isn't Tesla mentioned? Hello!

doug

09-03-2009, 05:45 PM

Umm, why isn't Tesla mentioned? Hello!
Tesla (as well as BMW for the Mini-E) uses Clipper Creek, but those aren't what I'd call smart chargers. That is the chargers aren't yet network connected or have a payment system.

Tdave

09-03-2009, 05:48 PM

Tesla (as well as BMW for the Mini-E) uses Clipper Creek, but those aren't what I'd call smart chargers. That is the chargers aren't network connected or have a payment system.

Yeah, I figured out that out after I posted. I saw some automakers listed and immediately looked for Tesla.

vfx

09-03-2009, 10:10 PM

Looks like a new kid on the block is coming:

Leviton Manufacturing, Co.

Electric Car Owner Questionnaire (http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dERXU3NSS2I4Ry0yR2xYRTlGNXRwMWc6MA)

If you have an electric car feel free to fill it out.

vfx

09-07-2009, 12:22 AM

General report
Electricity for those on the move « Climate Progress (http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/05/electric-vehicles-charging-infrastructure/#more-10909)

vfx

09-14-2009, 10:15 AM

What a great idea.

Madrid reverses the chargers with electric car plan | Environment | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/08/electric-car-plan-spain)

Too bad this did not happen the first round of EVs. The US booths are all way way gone these days. Also, I can't imagine a 220 circuit going to a phonebooth so fast charging is probably not an option.

vfx

09-15-2009, 01:03 PM

Found these guys Juice Technologies Press Releases (http://public.sempra.com/newsreleases/viewPR.cfm?PR_ID=2398&Co_Short_Nm=SE)

But they don;t seem to have a website but they are partners with Home | Plug Smart (http://plugsmart.net/)

rsquared99

09-15-2009, 02:47 PM

Serge

09-21-2009, 03:29 PM

I'm trying to get some further information about what "fast charge EV system" they are discusssing in para 7 of the attached meeting agenda before I decide whether to go to the meeting or not. Is anyone from the Tucson planning on going?

Some more information today from GCC. Coulomb Technologies to Demonstrate Level 2 SAE J1772 Fast Charge of Tesla (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/09/coulomb-tesla-20090921.html#more)

Coulomb Technologies will demonstrate a Level 2 SAE J1772 fast charge of an electric Tesla Roadster on 23 September in Arizona, following a meeting of the Tucson Regional Clean Cities Coalition.
From Coulomb Technologies (http://www.coulombtech.com/products.php) page:

Level 2 (208/240V @ 30A) charging.

So nothing an RFMC or stock MC240 can't do, but the J1772 part is interesting (assume the new J1772-2009). Do they have a Tesla-to-J1772 adapter? Experimental connector for TM's new UMC? Ground reports with pictures would be great!

vfx

09-22-2009, 04:13 PM

ABG (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/22/solarcity-announces-sun-powered-electric-vehicle-charging-networ/)

Electric vehicle drivers in sunny California can now look forward to getting some solar-powered juice for their rides. SolarCity and Rabobank are partnering up to install a series of EV quick-charging locations along Highway 101 between San Francisco and Los Angeles, one of which is already solar-powered. Four chargers have been installed – and are in operation – in Salinas, Atascadero, Santa Maria and San Luis Obispo. A fifth charger will be up and running in Goleta by the middle of October. The Santa Maria station is powered by a 30kW solar array. The units are all High-Power Connector fast chargers that provide 240V, 70 amps
PRESS RELEASE:

SolarCity and Rabobank Announce Corridor of Solar-Powered Electric Vehicle Charging Stations

SolarCity and Rabobank will enable electric vehicles to travel between San Francisco and Los Angeles

SANTA MARIA, Calif., Sept. 22, 2009–SolarCity® and Rabobank, N.A. today announced a partnership to create the world's first solar-power enhanced, fast-charge electric car charging corridor. When complete, the corridor will include four locations between San Francisco and Los Angeles (Salinas, Atascadero, Santa Maria and Goleta), allowing all-electric cars to make the trip using solar energy and provide for the fastest charge time available for public EV charges. The SolarCity-owned and operated corridor, built in cooperation with electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, will provide a full charge in one third the amount of time of other charging stations.

San Francisco and Los Angeles each support local infrastructure for electric vehicles (EV), and many enterprising EV owners have successfully completed ambitious road trips throughout California and cross-country. Allowing drivers to plug in and charge up at multiple locations along well traveled corridors will dramatically increase the convenience and practicality of the growing number of EVs on American roads. Rabobank branches are positioned all along the high-traffic Highway 101 corridor, close to shops, restaurants and other commercial centers in Northern and Southern California, making them ideal locations for charging stations.

"This charging station corridor demonstrates an important component of SolarCity's vision for a carbon-free lifestyle. We're combining clean, renewable solar power with all-electric transportation, allowing drivers to travel through California with zero emissions," said SolarCity CEO Lyndon Rive. SolarCity has installed more than 100 solar home charging stations for Tesla owners. The company has also assumed responsibility for a distribution contract for electric vehicle chargers for Toyota Tsusho as part its acquisition of SolSource Energy, announced last week.

Rabobank, N.A. is a California community bank that provides personalized service and a full array of quality products to individuals, businesses, and agricultural clients. The bank has completed a 30 kilowatt solar installation at its South Broadway branch in Santa Maria and is evaluating installing solar at additional locations. In addition to providing renewable energy to charge electric cars, the systems will offset electricity used by the locations. As part of the Rabobank Group, a global leader in sustainability-oriented banking, Rabobank, N.A. will offer local California customers and local shoppers convenient charging stations with clean, renewable energy.

"We hope that this corridor of charging stations provides new travel opportunities for electric vehicle owners and gives further momentum to the renewable energy movement," said Marco Krapels, co-chair of the bank's Corporate Social Responsibility committee.

The corridor would be the first interregional effort of its kind and would be the first to include solar power at a charging station. California is the first state in the United States to be aggressive about EV transportation. The Bay Area is home of Tesla Motors, makers of electric sports cars, among other EV manufacturers. State and local governments, electric utilities, the federal government and other entities are working together to support this infrastructure. Rabobank and SolarCity are taking the EV movement one step further, by charging electric vehicles with power from the sun.

Tom Dowling, electric vehicle charging infrastructure manager for the Electric Auto Association, is experienced with installing, tracking and maintaining EV charging stations. "These bank branches are what I call enabler locations because they allow EV drivers to take longer trips and thereby use the EV as their primary car," says Dowling. "Solar-powered charging stations mean true zero-emission driving, from well to wheels."

For more information about charging stations and electric cars:
Electric Vehicle Charging Stations. Drive completely carbon free with a solar system plus EV charging station. (http://www.solarcity.com/residential/electric-vehicle-charging-stations.aspx)

About SolarCity
SolarCity-a national leader in solar power system design, financing, installation, monitoring and related services-was founded with the mission to help millions of homeowners and businesses adopt solar power, protect themselves from rising electricity costs, and protect their environment from polluting power sources. The company's SolarLease and Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) options can make it possible for homeowners and businesses to switch to clean, solar power for less money than they currently pay for electricity. SolarCity currently serves 500 communities in California, Arizona and Oregon. Additional information about the company is available on the Web at SolarCity: Solar panels, solar leasing & financing for residential, commercial and government. $0 down solar lease—solar installation financing. (http://www.solarcity.com).

About Rabobank, N.A.
Rabobank, N.A. is a California community bank that provides personalized service and a full array of quality products to individuals, businesses, and agricultural clients. With 91 retail branches and 15 financial service centers, we serve the needs of communities from Sacramento to the Imperial Valley through local decision making and active community involvement by our employees. Rabobank, N.A. is part of the Rabobank Group, one of the world's largest and safest banks. www.rabobankamerica.com

TEG

09-22-2009, 11:48 PM

Greentech Media: SolarCity Installs Electric Car Chargers Along Cal Highway (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/solarcity-installs-electric-car-chargers-along-cal-highway/)

dpeilow

09-23-2009, 01:49 AM

Charging-station network built along 101 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/22/MN9719QVGD.DTL)

So the electric highway arrives before the hydrogen highway.

Also

EV road map: Follow the sun | Up to Speed | Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2009/09/solar-charge-ev.html)

California E.V. Corridor Is Open for Business - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/22/california-ev-corridor-is-open-for-business/)

Tdave

09-23-2009, 06:45 AM

C'mon, how about a few charging stations over here for us east coasters? Don't hog them all over there in CA. The mid Atlantic to New England corridor makes a lot of sense.

TEG

09-24-2009, 06:10 PM

Pop Up Video (http://www.kold.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?ClipID1=4156520&h1=Charging%20stations%20could%20soon%20cover%20Tucson&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=120733&LaunchPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&rnd=17408641)

Charging stations could soon cover Tucson - KOLD News 13 live, local and late breaking- (http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=11188538)

...
TUCSON, AZ (KOLD) - A sleek glimpse of the future in downtown Wednesday showed off how electric car technology could soon be our reality.
"I always was very keen on new technology," Eddie Gloyne said as he sat in his electric Tesla roadster.
"This is going to be the standard connector for all of the new cars," said Scott Saffian with Coulomb Technologies as he held up an SAE J1772 plug at the end of the cord coming from a ChargePoint Network station...

http://kold.images.worldnow.com/images/11188538_BG2.jpg

vfx

09-25-2009, 10:07 AM

A horrible Frankenstein of two stories jammed into one segment.

Nice to meet Eddie though.

ra-san

09-25-2009, 11:09 AM

Wow. For a station named KOLD, they seem more like a bunch of pre-teens on a sugar rush. I don't think a single person being interviewed got in more than 5 seconds of speech (and I'd bet none of the bites used were even approaching the points the speaker was trying to make at the time), the reporter sounded like his voice was sped up, and the quick cuts between the different story threads was jarring.

I really don't mean to be harsh, in case someone involved with this is reading. I know there are time budgets on the shows, and limited time to pull these segments together, but this is one example (far from the worst) of why I don't like talking to press.

doug

09-25-2009, 11:17 AM

It's good to know they'll be recycling the oil filters from those electric cars. :rolleyes:

doug

09-25-2009, 11:32 AM

I saw this great presentation the other day and the slides just became available online. I agree with the Europeans.

Joint BMW, Daimler, Volkswagen position on electric mobility Infrastructure (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/presentations/preuschoff_oestreicher.pdf) - Werner Preuschoff (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/biosall.pdf), Daimler AG and Ralf Oestreicher (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/biosall.pdf), Daimler AG

vfx

09-25-2009, 01:24 PM

Joint BMW, Daimler, Volkswagen position on electric mobility Infrastructure (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/presentations/preuschoff_oestreicher.pdf) - Werner Preuschoff (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/biosall.pdf), Daimler AG and Ralf Oestreicher (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/biosall.pdf), Daimler AG

I was plenty happy with two world standards but after reading this I was bummed about it since it made so much sense.

I assume JB signed on for just European agreement since Tesla has been part of the SAE J1772 development as well.

dpeilow

09-28-2009, 12:12 PM

I hope that JB signing this means that on-board 3-phase charging for the Model S, at least for Europe, is actually being considered. I'd hate to think that we might get all these 43kW charging stations and the car not be able to use them.

vfx

10-05-2009, 08:46 PM

Lot's of talk at the Alt Car Expo about the coming J1772 connector. There are three + versions and the tooling seems to be the problem now. One person said that Nisson sprung for tooling on one version but won't let anyone else use them.

Here are some random uncredited comments:

This is very much a moving target.

The J1772 standard encompasses a wide range of charging capacities on what should ultimately be a family of interchangeable connectors going all the way from 120V 15A to 240V 70(or maybe 80)A. It is my understanding that connector availability is a real issue with none of the connector manufacturers (including Yazaki - on whose connector the standard was based) stepping up to the plate to build volume tooling. At this point there is some proprietary tooling but no clear answer as to what charging capacities will be available on the open market from Clipper Creek et. al.

Further complicating this, most of the existing public chargers are on 40A circuits which will only support 6-7kW. Pulling new wiring for these will be expensive in most instances and it's not clear where the money would come from for this. Most site owners and funders would probably like to replace the charge head but limit charging to <7kW, which is possible depending on connector availability.

Further, BMW is apparently offering to donate a large number of their proprietary chargers to the effort, which most of us see as a distraction in the long run (or even relatively near term).

In summary, we've got a lot of coordination to do, but the initial task is to start gathering information.

And another commenter:

The J1772 standard supports both Level 1 and Level 2. Level 2 goes up
to 70 or 80 ? amps at up to 240 volts AC.

What has been in question is whether any manufacturer has been willing
to pay for the tooling, testing and deployment of the full capability
connectors when perhaps their particular car doesn't or doesn't yet need
that much juice.

Presumably a de-rated version of the connector would be cheaper to build
and buy, but I don't see much savings in the testing. Any Level 2
connector is going to have to be tested to all the NEC and SAE
requirements, you don't get a lesser number of insertions at 15 amps,
nor a break on the drop or rollover crush tests etc.

With a near term commitment to 6.6 kW charging already in place, it
would be astonishing to see Nissan deploy any EVSE with connectors
unable to support at least that level. Mark Perry also has confirmed
that any 3.3kW limitation in first year LEAF production vehicles would
result from the internal charge circuitry in the car, not from any
problems with connectors or infrastructure.

50kW Level 3 is another matter. Nissan fast charge EVSE is a large
external charger hardwired to 480 volt three phase grid AC (no way
14-50s are up to this) and delivering high voltage DC to the vehicle
pack (no way a J1772 is up to that).

LEAF prototypes have a large charge port door covering two charge
receptacles : a J1772 for Level 1 and 2 charging plus a different and
larger connector for fast charging. Although fast charging and suitable
connectors date back quite a while, (some early japanese market RAV4 EVs
used a fast charge connector that looks a lot like the one on the LEAF
prototypes) there is no SAE standard yet for a Level 3 fast charge
connector, so it could be a while before that rolls out.

Perhaps Nissan can get a waiver, (or can wave around enough DOE money)
to set their own Level 3 connector standard or to use Japanese or
European connectors.

Almost seems like the J1772 needs it own thread.

SByer

10-05-2009, 11:26 PM

The wonderful thing about standards is...

vfx

10-06-2009, 07:35 AM

Nissan is asking where to put chargers. There is a focus on SoCal:

The EV Project » Charging Maps (http://www.theevproject.com/charging-maps.php)

vfx

10-06-2009, 07:48 AM

More conversation on the j1772:

..., level 2 is anything above the 125 volt limit for level 1 (OK, we are also talking about only 208/240 volt circuits). The upper limit for level 2 charging is 100 amps rating but NEC only allows 80% or 80 amps for a continuous duty load which is what electric vehicle charging is. The EVSE and the related connector does not determine the rate at which a vehicle will charge unless the vehicle's on-board charger is capable of loads greater than the EVSE is capable of supplying. The communications between the EVSE and the vehicle will lower the demand from the vehicle if the EVSE is not capable of supplying the amperage the vehicle is capable of receiving. Most EVSE is going to be rated at 40 amps or something less. Very few (Tesla and BMW units aside) vehicles will actually be capable of receiving more than 32 amps (80% of 40 amps). Major difference between the 40 amp rated units and the 100 amp rated units will be size of the wiring in the connector cord. The J1772 connectors and receptacles are going to be primarily 100 amp rated units (no need to have varying sizes as the pin sizes and locations are predetermined regardless of the amp rating of the EVSE). However, someone will need to provide to UL the units for certification at that amperage.

6.6 kW is the nominal rating for vehicles receiving 30 amps from the EVSE. Since voltage is variable depending on whether the circuit is 208 volts (primarily commercial locations feed from 480 volt three-phase supply circuits) or 240 volts (primarily residential locations where only single-phase power is available) and not constant depending on loads on the circuit and wire size. The 3.3 kW is the nominal rating for vehicles receiving 15 amps from the EVSE.

The 50 kW chargers are going to be connected to three-phase power (primarily 480 volts) and will require 60 plus amps from each phase. FYI, if connected to a single-phase 240 volt circuit as proposed, the current demand would be north of 200 amps. 200 amp service is a common service for a home with central air and other electric intensive appliances like clothes dryers, ovens and stoves.

another

...expect to see 32A (for 40A 208-240V circuits) J1772 cordsets
available by early 2010. It's the 70-80A version that is in limbo.
Reason: low volume. Nobody is stepping up to funding the tooling and
the UL approval process for the 70-80A version.

The existing infrastructure is 32A on 40A 208-240V circuits. Those
circuits are reusable for the new infrastructure, as I indicated in
earlier replies.

There will be 15A J1772 cables (for 20A 208-240V circuits), but those
should not be installed in public infrastructure. Any vehicle that
can use the 15A J1772 cable can also use the 32A J1772 cable.

Conversations are also leading the the idea of legacy chargers remaining in place with the new chargers next to them. There would be a switch that would allow a choice to ghost from either unit.

doug

10-06-2009, 10:17 AM

Hmm... again it seems the Germans (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/presentations/preuschoff_oestreicher.pdf) have worked a lot of this out. Can't we follow zee Germans?

Could you remind me what EVSE stands for?

J in MN

10-06-2009, 10:46 AM

Hmm... again it seems [the Germans have worked a lot of this out. Can't we follow zee Germans?

Could you remind me what EVSE stands for?

We could, but that would be too unpatriotic and modest... :tongue:

EVSE = Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment

vfx

10-09-2009, 03:32 PM

This only takes a few seconds but has to be done today (10/09/09). Jump on this charger location assessment query if you drive an EV and live in LA.

There will be more of these for different regions as the local power companies get on board.

Plug In America (http://action.pluginamerica.org/questionnaire.jsp?questionnaire)

Serge

10-20-2009, 03:57 PM

GM’s Fastlane Blog hosted a webchat (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/10/webchat-with-epris-mark-duvall-and-gms-britta-gross-on-electric-infrastructure-at-4pm-edt.html#more)today with EPRI’s Mark Duvall and GM’s Britta Gross on Electric Infrastructure. I missed it, but somebody else asked a question I had:

4:25 [Comment From John Brown ]
Are charging cables now standardized so that Volt, LEAF and other plugins have the same plug and specs?
4:25 Britta Gross: Yes, GM's Gery Kissel is chair of the SAE J1772 standards committee. The standard is going to a vote this week after two and a half years of work. All major automakers are expected to agree to adhere to these charging standards. All infrastructure that goes in from now on should be J1772 compliant so all plug-in vehicles can use it.

TEG

10-20-2009, 06:11 PM

...All infrastructure that goes in from now on should be J1772 compliant so all plug-in vehicles can use it...

Should is one of those words that can be interpreted different ways.

Which of these statements best describes the expectation and intent?:

All infrastructure that goes in from now on must be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on ought to be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on better be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on will be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on may be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on might be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on could be J1772 compliant ?

"Should be" sort of implies that it just may happen... Or at least some people think it is the right thing to do even if it doesn't happen.

Serge

10-20-2009, 06:40 PM

"Should be" sort of implies that it just may happen... Or at least some people think it is the right thing to do even if it doesn't happen.
Well, GM clearly wants all new charge infrastructure to be J1772 standard compliant, however they are not in position to use more assertive language like must or will. DoE, on the other hand, is. At least to the extent of projects they fund. Then, there is always a possibility that some entity may decide to implement non-J1772 charging infrastructure, perhaps based on European-standard or some variant of DC fast charge, so there is an element of uncertainty here :rolleyes:

vfx

10-20-2009, 06:49 PM

Well, GM clearly wants all new charge infrastructure to be J1772 standard compliant,

Yeah, I think it's just one man trying not to speak for others.

TEG

10-20-2009, 09:14 PM

Synonyms (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/must):
Must, ought, should express necessity or duty.
Must expresses necessity or compulsion: I must attend to those patients first. Soldiers must obey orders.
Ought (weaker than must) expresses obligation, duty, desirability: You ought to tell your mother.
Should expresses obligation, expectation, or probability: You are not behaving as you should. Children should be taught to speak the truth. They should arrive at one o'clock.

Should is the weakest of the bunch... Like "we hope they do it".
Perhaps "ought to" would have been better.

dpeilow

10-21-2009, 01:42 AM

Should is one of those words that manufacturers in standardisation groups love. It gives them some wriggle-room not to do it :wink:

Norbert

11-07-2009, 12:06 PM

Tesla should ask for the standard chargers to be 70A/80A capable. Even if the Volt and the Leaf wouldn't be able to use more than 30A, they should. Which should mean their next generation will. Besides, Model S or at least BlueStar should sell at comparabele quantities. Building an infrastructure with only 30A seems like building something that is outdated the day after it is on the street.

TEG

11-15-2009, 09:26 AM

Nissan Leaf sockets from here (http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-in.html):
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5TnleaZ2aJk/Sv35o67i5pI/AAAAAAAAADc/beXkEQ13nKc/s1600/P1020806.jpg
(Quick charge on the left, J1772-2009 on the right)

(The >PBT+PO< on the quick charge seems to describe the insulator material... for eventual recycling... Polybutylene Terephthalate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene_terephthalate) + Propylene Oxide (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4024204/description.html) anti-static copolymer)

Serge

11-16-2009, 09:29 AM

Nissan Leaf sockets from here (http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-in.html):
(Quick charge on the left, J1772-2009 on the right)

The article mentions quick charge socket being capable of 50 kW. Is plug design proprietary?

doug

11-16-2009, 10:47 AM

The article mentions quick charge socket being capable of 50 kW. Is plug design proprietary?

I don't know about proprietary, but it showed up on an early version of the iMiev as well and at the time was said to be 50kW DC.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_600/car_photo_300433_25.jpg

However, more recently Mitsubishi has described the fast charge port as 200V 3-phase 50kW, so they may now be using a different connector.

Would be nice to have a 50kW standard. Particularly since such stations will be more expensive to set up.

doug

11-16-2009, 01:58 PM

Would be nice to have a 50kW standard. Particularly since such stations will be more expensive to set up.

I should mention that the existing Mennekes connector design (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2009symposium/presentations/preuschoff_oestreicher.pdf) is already capable of 50kW 3-phase. They argue that up to 43kW 3-phase charging with an on-board charger is overall cheaper than DC fast charging.

At any rate, here's a 2008 presentation by TEPCO on those quick-charging stations.

http://www.iea.org/work/2008/transport/TEPCO.pdf

Specifications
-Type: Switching type, constant current power supply
-Input: 3-phase 200V
-Maximum DC output power: 50kW
-Maximum DC output Voltage: 500V
-Maximum DC output Current: 100AExplains the confusion with the i-MiEV quick charge connector. For some reason Mitsubishi keeps quoting the input of the charging station rather than what the car sees.

TEG

11-26-2009, 06:58 PM

Should is one of those words that manufacturers in standardisation groups love. It gives them some wriggle-room not to do it :wink:

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt

...The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.

...
3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

Norbert

11-26-2009, 07:17 PM

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt

...
3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

Full implications "SHOULD" always "be understood and
carefully weighed", in any case, at the order of magnitude we are discussing here. At least that is what I would have "RECOMMENDED". :wink:

vfx

12-03-2009, 11:43 AM

European Auto Makers Debate EV Charging Standard (http://wardsauto.com/ar/european_ev_standard_091202/index.html)

At stake in the debate is the public's
acceptance of EVs and plug-in hybrids. Or as
Renault SA project engineer Philippe Dupuy puts
it: "How many cables will you have in the trunk?

dpeilow

12-03-2009, 01:22 PM

Interesting article, but I think it paints a simple picture.

I think PSA's (that's Peugeot and Citroen) decision to rebadge the i-MiEV has muddied the waters about a common European standard. The last thing we need is a standards war among charging stations.

(Funny Evan Tuer turns up here - I'm dropping by to see his Li-ion upgraded Peugeot 106 this Saturday.)

doug

12-03-2009, 02:07 PM

European Auto Makers Debate EV Charging Standard (http://wardsauto.com/ar/european_ev_standard_091202/index.html)

Thanks, vfx. Lots of interesting tidbits in this article.

While most major auto makers would like a global standard, it is unlikely to happen, as Japan and the U.S. already are moving toward their own protocols. And even if Europe reaches agreement, wall sockets differ from country to country within the continent.It's news to me that most auto makers want a global standard. They should make more noise about it. Feels like they've been content to allow two standards emerge.

But fast charging will create heat, require special heavy cables and, if used often, will shorten the life of an expensive battery, says Bernard Sahut, PSA’s innovation sub-domain manager. The auto maker believes the goal during the introduction of EVs should be to keep things simple.I agree we should keep things simple, but it shouldn't be that hard to use a standard that is forward looking. I think the Mennekes connector it quite versatile and is not terribly complicated. It can do low power all the way up to 43 kW in the same form factor.

It's seems kinda silly to me that Mitsubishi and Nissan appear to be going with two separate connectors (the Yazaki J1772 and the "50kW" one) for the utility that can be found in the single connector the Germans are using.

“You need a (common) plug at the network, and the cable to the car could be different for each auto maker,” [French-utility EDF’s] Gagnol says. “There is no need that the connection at the vehicle be the same.”This is incredibly short sighted.

“Those [RWE Mennenkes] connections will cost €150 ($225) each,” says PSA’s Grivaux. “What will they say when someone drives over their plug in the garage and they go to the dealer for a new one (that costs) €300 ($450)?”The connectors are unlikely to be that expensive and they're designed to withstand being driven over.

Today, the RWE socket would be illegal in France, because it does not have built-in child proofing. So even if the EV world is moving fast, it would not be surprising to see full standardization take a slower route, arriving later than sooner.French protectionism.

dpeilow

12-03-2009, 02:24 PM

Also;

Those connections will cost €150 ($225) each,” says PSA’s Grivaux. “What will they say when someone drives over their plug in the garage and they go to the dealer for a new one (that costs) €300 ($450)?

I'd be amazed if they are a tenth of that.

This shows pricing for the nearest equivalent Mennekes 60309 connector. You can see how the discount scales: Mennekes | Connectors | Electrical/Power | BS4343/IEC309 Industrial and Accessories | Mennekes PowerTOP |3258 (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6796892)

dpeilow

12-06-2009, 03:56 AM

Funny Evan Tuer turns up here - I'm dropping by to see his Li-ion upgraded Peugeot 106 this Saturday.

So I did drop by. Nice guy, extremely knowledgeable about these cars and passionate about the EV scene. Peugeot should give him a job.

And guess what - he was totally oblivious to being quoted in this article :rolleyes:

dpeilow

01-05-2010, 08:20 AM

EV Charging Infrastructure: the New VHS vs. BetaMax? |Triple Pundit (http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/12/ev-charging-infrastructure-the-new-vhs-vs-betamax/)

vfx

01-11-2010, 10:07 PM

http://www.avinc.com/images/evmicrosite/gallery/image08_big.jpg

For Immediate Release

NISSAN NORTH AMERICA SELECTS AEROVIRONMENT TO INSTALL

HOME-CHARGING STATIONS FOR NISSAN LEAF

Agreement part of one-stop shop experience for EV purchase process

DETROIT (Jan. 11, 2010) – Nissan North America (NNA) today announced its selection of AeroVironment (NASDAQ: AVAV) (AV) to supply electric vehicle home-charging stations and installation services supporting the introduction of the zero-emission, all-electric Nissan LEAF later this year.

The Nissan LEAF five-passenger electric car will be powered by an advanced, lithium-ion battery pack that will provide a drive range of 100 miles on a full charge, as measured by the LA4 test cycle. AV’s Nissan-branded charging stations will be available at the sale of each Nissan LEAF as part of the vehicle’s total driving system. The home-charging stations are designed to provide a safe and reliable charge when installed with a connection to a 220-volt line. It will take eight hours to fully charge the Nissan LEAF from a fully discharged state.

Home charging will represent a highly convenient charging method for the Nissan LEAF customer. AV’s nationwide network of qualified, licensed electricians will offer pre-installation home assessment services prior to vehicle delivery, and will install the charging stations.

“Nissan is committed to bringing zero-emission mobility to the United States, and around the world,” said Carlos Tavares, Chairman, Nissan Americas. “A part of that commitment is delivering a one-stop shop experience for the new car owner, which is why we chose AeroVironment. As a result of our selection, drivers of the Nissan LEAF will be able to charge their vehicles safely overnight at their own homes.”

“By introducing a practical electric passenger and fleet vehicle, Nissan is moving boldly to link driving with zero emissions and energy independence,” said Tim Conver, AV’s chairman and chief executive officer. “Our selection as Nissan’s preferred charging equipment and service provider, for what we believe will be the largest adoption of battery electric cars in history, represents a great opportunity to apply our nationwide EV charging infrastructure solutions to the successful introduction of the Nissan LEAF. We are committed to making those who purchase a Nissan LEAF and our universal home charging system successful in the use of clean, electric vehicles.”
Nissan announced this supply agreement at the North American International Auto Show, where the Nissan LEAF was being displayed for international media Jan. 11-12. Nissan, along with its alliance partner Renault, is the only automaker committed to making all-electric vehicles available to the mass market on a global scale. The Nissan LEAF will go on sale in select markets in the United States in December.

In North America, Nissan's operations include automotive design, engineering, consumer and corporate financing, sales and marketing, distribution and manufacturing. Nissan is dedicated to improving the environment under the Nissan Green Program 2010, whose key priorities are reducing CO2 emissions, cutting other emissions and increasing recycling. More information on the Nissan LEAF and zero emissions can be found at Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Nissan USA Official Site (http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car).

About AeroVironment (AV)
Building on a history of technological innovation, AV designs, develops, produces, and supports an advanced portfolio of Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) and efficient electric energy systems. Agencies of the U.S. Department of Defense and allied military services use the company’s battery-powered, hand-launched UAS to provide situational awareness to tactical operating units through real-time, airborne reconnaissance, surveillance, and target acquisition. AV’s clean transportation solutions include power cycling and test systems and industrial electric vehicle charging systems for commercial and institutional customers, as well as EV home chargers and EV fast chargers for consumers. More information about AV is available at AeroVironment, Inc. : Unmanned Aircraft Systems, Electric Vehicle Charging Systems, Clean Energy Technology, Power Cycling & Test Systems (http://www.avinc.com).