View Full Version : Improving functionality
malcolm
06-29-2008, 04:03 AM
"... it's that sort of thing where you want this to be a car that even if it wasn't an electric car, you'd say, "Wow, I really wish I had that as a sedan – whether it was electric or not, I don't care. It's just such a great car."......it's going to be a good-looking car, but it's also going to be a very functional car. And I think functionality is extremely important." - EM
So often claims of innovation in the auto industry amount to nothing more than pointless gadgetry, e.g. rain-sensing windshield wipers - as if a driver is incapable of noticing rainfall and operating a simple switch!
We're so used to silly features lists that it is difficult to come up with genuine benefits for the owner.
So, let's assume future cars from Tesla are going to look good; let's assume that they will have the usual gadgets; let's forget about drivetrains.
How will they be better? How will they be easier to use and to live with? How will they be more compelling?
Feel free to list things which may be impossible for Tesla to achieve without major input from outside/ever.
Here's my 2c:-
The Self-cleaning car: windshield, windows and paintwork...
http://www.pilkington.com/resources/activresdatasheet.pdf
Scientists ponder self-cleaning bathroom. 23/01/2006. ABC News Online (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1553066.htm)
Cobos
06-29-2008, 05:29 AM
I like the ideas that Think has for their Ox, where the key is basically a USB-drive with all your personal preferences and your music and data. That actually sounds like a very useful feature if you take the time to set it up.
That's the first I come up with off the top of my head.
Cobos
Something the the best EV prototypes are wearing this year is photovoltaic panels to operate the interior environment equipment (air conditioner,heat) even while the car is shut off. The idea is to get into a comfortable car even when it's been sitting in a parking lot in Phoenix Arizona all day.
I think that's an absolute must-have for the idiots who take their dog to the grocery store with them (present company excluded, of course).
malcolm
06-30-2008, 06:46 AM
Th!nk-like telemetry.
The Th!nk New City lets you text your car for the state of charge and the car is in contact with Th!nk in Norway who monitor the battery calender life etc.
A future EV could be set to defrost on a cold morning via the key fob, without you having to unlock and sit in the car. Could turn on the AC remotely on a hot day as well.
BBHighway
06-30-2008, 07:24 AM
The rain-sensing windshield wipers are a gimmick, but if the car could sense rain while sitting in the parking lot, (ie. at work), and put up the windows by itself, (and close the sunroof, if applicable), that would prevent a wet seat on the ride home.
Probably not allowed, due to the danger of someone/pets getting stuck in the window.
With connectivity there is the possibility of some nice security features. (Just as long as only I have control of them and my right to privacy isn't violated.) You could track your car if it was stolen, or know if it's been broken into. With cameras an image could be sent to your phone. You could know who gave you that door dingie in the parking lot.
malcolm
06-30-2008, 11:51 AM
Many cars (including the Roadster) have automatic tire pressure sensing. Maybe DOT safety can allow automatic tire pressure control (with suitable backups and overrides).
malcolm
07-01-2008, 10:26 AM
Accessories for supermarket shopping
A set of suitable containers with carry handles which can stack straight into your domestic trunk freezer and which also fit neatly across the width/depth of the car's trunk.
Maybe could be extended to fit shopping carts and a range of freezers, fridges and kitchen cupboards.
No need for grocery bags, since the loose items in the shopping cart can be sorted into appropriate containers in the car's trunk.
F1 had custom fit luggage.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachments/future-cars/62d1214972885-improving-functionality-f1lug.jpg
I like the idea of custom fit shopping containers.
If you keep your frozen foods insulated better from store to freezer then less energy is needed to re-freeze it.
WarpedOne
07-01-2008, 11:31 PM
I like the idea of custom fit shopping containers. If you keep your frozen foods insulated better from store to freezer then less energy is needed to re-freeze it.
How much energy is used to design in produce custom fit shopping containers?
Custom tooling, special design, special materials ... In the end you consume more.
With every thing there are visible and hidden costs.
Manntis
07-02-2008, 05:20 AM
Th!nk-like telemetry.
The Th!nk New City lets you text your car for the state of charge and the car is in contact with Th!nk in Norway who monitor the battery calender life etc.
A future EV could be set to defrost on a cold morning via the key fob, without you having to unlock and sit in the car. Could turn on the AC remotely on a hot day as well.
That's a snap. You can already get remote "command start" modules - just hook the signal wire into your HVAC circuit so, when activated, it powers up the HVAC. In winter you'd have your HVAC set to heat/defrost and in summer to AC, so all you need is for the fob to activate it.
"
The Th!nk New City lets you text your car for the state of charge and the car is in contact with Th!nk in Norway who monitor the battery calender life etc."
I don't want any privaye company to know where I am. This is information that can be sold, stolen or taken by governmental bodies.
If they just want the battery info OK, Just leave my trips to see the Giant Ball of string between me and my cat.
Probably not allowed, due to the danger of someone/pets getting stuck in the window.
I was surprised to find that cars like the Infiniti have auto (one flick of a switch) open and close windows. If you stick your arm into the opening and close the window it will apply a bit of pressure to the limb then reverse back open.
Would probably crush your pet gerbil though.
Off the top of my (tiny) head.
Things that exist now in some form:
Solar paint
Solar glass
Energy creating shock absorbers
Smart cruise control
keyless entry
coloured tires
no exterior rear view mirrors (drag) video cameras
"quiet horn" for alerting pedestrians
A second cup holder
seat cooler
48 volt standard
VTG
heads up display
lojack
Future tech:
near zero rolling resistance tires (that stick like glue in the corners)
auto drive option
zero carbon footprint car
park charging (no plugging)
carbon dust-free braking pads
eliminated air ducts for even better airflow
tonybelding
07-04-2008, 10:51 AM
So, let's assume future cars from Tesla are going to look good; let's assume that they will have the usual gadgets; let's forget about drivetrains.
How will they be better? How will they be easier to use and to live with? How will they be more compelling?
Most of the ideas brought out in this thread have been alien to me. I guess I'm an automotive throwback. . . I like the almost spartan purity of the Roadster. I see the lack of power steering and power-adjustable seats as a positive. I'm even ambivalent about power windows. (The base model Lotus Elise has manual windows to save weight.)
If your electric motors in your power seats weigh five pounds, that's five pounds fewer batteries the car can carry.
If we're going to get serious about efficiency, cars need to get lighter, and one way to make them lighter is by stripping out a lot of these frills. That doesn't merely improve the efficiency, but also improves all aspects of handling: acceleration, braking, cornering. I think that approach ought to remain in Tesla's brand DNA, even as they go into different market segments.
I agree, Tony, but unfortunately many assume a $100K+ (or even $60K) car is expected to be packed with "bells and whistles".
I see the Roadster frequently referred to as a "luxury car", so people expect luxury/comfort/gadget features, and in some cases are disappointed by their lack.
Model S is expected to go "head to head" with cars like the BMW 5 series which comes standard with a lot of "creature comforts" and luxury features.
The Elise basis for the Roadster is a bare-bones, spartan, purists sports car, so the Roadster ended up sharing some of that philosophy which isn't well suited to every type of potential customer. Over time, Tesla seems to have tried to add some more luxury and unfortunately more weight has come along with it.
Just look at some of the "features" you can get on a 911 Turbo:
911 Turbo Brochure (http://www.porsche.com/all/media/pdf/Catalogue_911-turbo_MY08_PCNA.pdf)
..."Adaptive Sports Seats. This seat option offers full electric adjustment of fore/aft position, seat height, backrest angle, lumbar support, seat side bolsters and backrest side bolsters. By varying the side bolsters, you can increase occupant comfort on longdistance journeys or maximize support on the racetrack. A driver memory function includes the exterior mirror position on the driver side and all driver seat settings, except for the bolster depth."...
..."“Welcome Home” lighting. This standard feature illuminates the fog lights and taillights for 30 seconds following the locking or unlocking of your 911 Turbo with the key remote. The duration is user-adjustable in vehicles equipped with the optional Sport Chrono Package Turbo."...
..."ParkAssist. This optional parking aid uses six ultrasonic sensors to monitor the distance to obstacles behind your car. Shift the car into reverse, and an audio signal increases in frequency as objects draw near, helping you safely back into tight spaces."...
..."Porsche CD changer. The optional Porsche CD changer holds up to six CDs for hours of uninterrupted listening pleasure. "...
..."The standard Bose Surround Sound system transforms the Sports Seats of your 911 Turbo into front-row concert seats.
Created expressly for the car’s unique acoustics, this system offers amazing sound reproduction, regardless of driving conditions."...
..."A total of 13 individual speakers, enhanced by individual front and rear channels, creates a panorama of sound that duplicates the quality of live music. The system is powered by a seven-channel digital amplifier and active equalization that match the sound to the cabin’s acoustics. A fiber-optic network beneath the dashboard integrates 5x25-watt linear amps and a single 100-watt switching unit with sparkling signal quality, while a second switching amp in the active subwoofer offers an additional 100 watts of power."...
..."Porsche navigation. The 911 Turbo is famous for reducing travel times. With a DVD/GPS navigation system now standard, you may get there even more quickly."...
..."Porsche Communication Management (PCM), a standard feature of the 911 Turbo. The centerpiece of PCM is a highresolution color monitor that displays simple menus in plain language. A button array offers access to the standard Extended Navigation Module, Bose Surround Sound system, onboard computer and other PCM systems. PCM also provides central control for optional equipment, including a six-disc MP3-compatible CD changer, a telephone module and an electronic logbook."...
For interior you can pick from multiple trim packages:
Leather, Alcantara, Makassar wood, Sycamore wood, Carbon Fiber, Aluminum, Stainless Steel, ...
Options include headlight washers, Wheels painted in exterior color, Aerokit, Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB), etc.
Those were just some highlights. My point is that the gap in available features is huge. I would bet Tesla gets requests for all sorts of things, some reasonable, and some excessive. They would have to make some hard choices on what is appropriate. Their status as a small manufacturer, and one that can't afford to take on the extra weight (since it could hurt their "oh so important" range & acceleration numbers) puts them at a disadvantage in this area.
(That 911 Turbo makes 480hp / 460lb-ft so it can take on extra weight and still have similar 0-60 performance)
By the way, most of those 911 turbo features are "excessive" in my book.
The main differentiators to me would be:
#1: Quality of the audio sound system.
#2: Ease of use of the GPS/NAV system.
#3: Comfort of the seats.
Some people probably like the myriad of customization options you could get on the 911 turbo. Lots of material choices, and color schemes. For that kind of $ some people would want to have a car made that they are sure is unique. Their "al la carte" pricing on so many options could probably drive the price way up.
Cobos
07-05-2008, 08:16 AM
They could perhaps limit costs by selling the Roadster or the Whitestar in a base version with very little options or a significantly more expensive delux version where they unlock all the options. That sort of caters to both variants. When you look at a BMW 5-series they manage very good handling and good acceleration even with the myriad of luxury features. And for a luxury sedan they NEED those extra features. In many ways the Roadster is more of a pure sports car so it makes less sense to weigh it down with many more luxury features than they've got now.
Cobos
One trend in car dashboards is to have bigger and bigger touchscreen LCDs as the years progress. I sortof like the way Aptera has a tri-view (wide) camera view out the back as well as large system controls on one big primary LCD.
http://www.gizmodo.jp/img/071228aptera-5-interior.jpg
Integration of StreetDeck with the Aptera Vehicle | streetdeck.com (http://www.streetdeck.com/node/56)
Nissan Skyline dashboard LCD:
http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/10/08.nissan.skyline.cc.2.500.jpg
Most of the extra features I'd like, really just depend on software and don't have to add much weight at all. Once you've integrated hardware like GPS, wi-fi, bluetooth, a cellular data connection like EvDO, and some solid state storage (all stuff that currently fits in my cell phone), there are ton of cool features one could think up.
EDIT: Here's an example. GPS directly to an open parking space.
Wireless parking sensors alert San Francisco drivers to open parking spaces (http://www.intomobile.com/2008/07/15/wireless-parking-sensors-alert-san-francisco-drivers-to-open-parking-spaces.html)
http://www.core77.com/blog/images/sfpark.jpg
Can’t Find a Parking Spot? Check Smartphone - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/12/business/12newpark.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)
malcolm
07-18-2008, 08:12 AM
Damn! Almost forgot.
It would be really useful if you can recharge Tesla cars by connecting two together via the (updated?) mobile charger- so called Vehicle To Vehicle or V2V.
Obviously this is only going to be available initially for those lucky enough to purchase two Teslas, and as the numbers of EVs grow then presumably we'll have to go through the EV equivalent of the BluRay/HD format war. But then, that's going to happen with any centralised battery-swap or commercial fast recharge stations anyway.
Still it would be a useful feature if Model S and the Roadster can recharge each other in an emergency.
Chris H.
07-18-2008, 08:20 AM
Malcolm,
that's a really good idea, and, to be honest, it's one that had not occurred to me before. I suppose it would also be a good idea for tow trucks to carry some kind of charger and ESS as EVs become more common on the roads.
All the best,
Chris H.
malcolm
07-18-2008, 08:33 AM
Yeah and it makes a good case for selling more Tesla EVs rather than waiting for some brave/foolhardy soul to bite the supermarket recharge station or battery swap outlet bullet.
What happens if I run out of charge? Phone your partner to drive your other Tesla out to rescue you. Or maybe it could be an aspect of the Owners Club - assuming members live fairly close to each other.
Brent
07-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Yeah and it makes a good case for selling more Tesla EVs rather than waiting for some brave/foolhardy soul to bite the supermarket recharge station or battery swap outlet bullet.
What happens if I run out of charge? Phone your partner to drive your other Tesla out to rescue you. Or maybe it could be an aspect of the Owners Club - assuming members live fairly close to each other.
It's a great idea to have the option, although I might opt for roadside service if it had something similar. Why bother my friends when I can bother the car company?
What happens if I run out of charge?
Someone can tow over a generator (http://builder-news.com.com/8301-11128_3-9815177-54.html) if you don't want to have the car towed to a charging station.
"It would be really useful if you can recharge Tesla cars by connecting two together via the (updated?) mobile charger- so called Vehicle To Vehicle or V2V."
Neat idea but wouldn't you end up with two cars with an equal amount of energy?
It seems the max "fill up" would be half of what the charging vehicle battery has to offer.
"It would be really useful if you can recharge Tesla cars by connecting two together via the (updated?) mobile charger- so called Vehicle To Vehicle or V2V."
Neat idea but wouldn't you end up with two cars with an equal amount of energy?
It seems the max "fill up" would be half of what the charging vehicle battery has to offer.
With some electronics in between (e.g. a transformer), you can "fill" one while "emptying" the other.
It would be really useful if you can recharge Tesla cars by connecting two together via the (updated?) mobile charger- so called Vehicle To Vehicle or V2V.
Blast from the past (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=62)
# Malcolm Wilson wrote on February 6th, 2008 at 8:34 am
## Also can any single Tesla be used as an emergency mobile charger for another Tesla? Is V2V allowed.
TEG wrote on February 6th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Good point! I was always thinking of someone towing a generator out to the stranded vehicle, but if you could share your power that would be even better.
The Tesla emergency roadside service vehicle could be another Tesla!
On the surface, it would seem like this would be technically feasible.
ICE vehicles give each other “jump starts” all the time with you offering “jumper cables” to hook your battery to someone in need.
Why not do that with the traction pack as well?
With some electronics in between (e.g. a transformer), you can "fill" one while "emptying" the other.
Transformer = heavy
malcolm
07-19-2008, 07:46 AM
Blast from the past (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=62)
Damn. My secret's out! I don't have anything new to say, I just recycle the same comments every six months or so. :biggrin:
Yes vfx is quite right, two cars can only share a bit of charge (say 20% max?). But with moderate driving at 50 mph the Roadster can go ~40 miles on 10kWh.
This is really only suitable for a recovery situation. Towing around a portable ICE-driven generator is obviously a better way to deliver more charge - either in an emergency or for a really long journey where you need to cover several hundred miles in a day (Elon's 1% of journeys).
I just like the simplicity of Tesla not needing to invest in helping develop a battery swap system or commercial recharging stations. Their focus is the cars - so the best mobile recharger is (for their business) another car.
Tesla really shouldn't get involved with charging/swapping infrastructure stuff. Stick with the cars guys.
"Tesla really shouldn't get involved with charging/swapping infrastructure stuff. Stick with the cars guys."
No, Tesla should be heading up the international standards for charging. We don't need competing incompatible charge stations again.
I'd say Tesla should partner with Shai at Project Better Place. Once there are thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of chargers in India, Denmark. Hawaii and San Francisco, the chargers will become the defacto standard.
WarpedOne
07-19-2008, 02:37 PM
No, Tesla should be heading up the international standards for charging. We don't need competing incompatible charge stations again.
The reality is no new charging standards are really needed. We have our home 120/240V outlets. We only need to get the idea that we need quick charging out of our heads. We don't.
Developement of such a standard and implementation of widely spread quick charging grid does not warrant the costs involved. How many people will use it and pay much higher price when they can charge at home over night?
Indeed, developing such quick charging grid could mean some car maker will stop offering homecharging capability. And we do not want that to happen.
Well already the AC plugs worldwide are all different. It would be nice if the EV makers got their act together before they put out product.
I agree that the cars should plug in to standard plugs via adapters but remember that Tesla's charger has a lot of "smart" features with the power source talking to the car and Vice Versa. These safety measures are what I am talking about as much as the form of the plug/socket.
By the way, the idea of a Tesla on the side of the road with a dead battery and another Tesla driving up and plugging in for a few minutes to charge the dead one is cool.
Makes me want to by two!
WarpedOne
07-20-2008, 03:00 AM
.. in for a few minutes to charge the dead one is cool.
Few minutes like 10 minutes? At 17kW that is 2,8kWh which is about 5% of maximum charge or about 10 miles of aditional range.
It sounds cool just as rocket belts sounds cool also. But both just do not work in practice.
malcolm
07-20-2008, 07:45 AM
Makes me want to by two!
Exactly! :biggrin:
And yes "a few minutes" may be a bit optimistic, unless two Teslas connected can offer the (pointless?) Holy Grail of EV recharging - Ultra Fast. Make it a unique feature only available when two cars are connected. Additional selling point.
Battery cooling energy consumption will probably prohibit this, however. A bit embarassing if 10kWh delivery requires a further 20 kWh to stop both battery packs melting.
malcolm
07-20-2008, 09:31 AM
Damnit!
The more I look at this, the uglier it gets.
Suppose we want to deliver 10kWh of energy to the exhausted car (for ~40 miles driving). Taking one hour at 240 V means 42 Amps. But we know 70 amps requires 17kWh for cooling, so the exhausted car will require a further 42.5 Amps for cooling.
So apart from needing a new cable rated for 100 amps, the suppling car will need to give up 20.3kWh to the other car AND consume a further 20.5kWh of energy keeping its own battery cool.
So donating 10kWh in an hour to one car requires the sacrifice of 41kWh from the other.
Great. I have almost successfully stranded two cars instead of one!
Looks like V2V is a non-starter with present battery pack technology unless you are prepared to put up with recharge times of several hours! Not quite the emergency rescue I had in mind.
It sounds cool just as rocket belts sounds cool also. But both just do not work in practice.
Why? Is something wrong with your rocket belt? Mine works fine! :rolleyes:
Chris H.
07-20-2008, 09:40 AM
Perhaps the towable generator is the best option for a stranded car too... A service vehicle brings the t.g. to the stranded car, hooks it up, the tech says "Awlright guv'nor, give her 30 minits, an it's good, innit?"
Know wot I mean? :smile:
Chris H.
malcolm
07-20-2008, 09:48 AM
I agree, but this need for battery cooling makes 30 minutes very tough for a reasonably sized generator. People expect Emergency recovery time scales to be far lower than typical recharge durations. That's the problem here.
Chris H.
07-20-2008, 10:37 AM
If the Roadster were capable of towing the generator, you could just get a few kWs into the battery and then drive away. The generator could continue to charge the battery as you drive to the nearest 70 amp charge station, charge up, and then return the generator to the service depot... Not perfect, but it should work.
"People expect Emergency recovery time scales to be far lower than typical recharge durations. That's the problem here. "
I see a traveling waiting room.
On the grand side, the rescue vehicle with the generator is a motor home. It has a plasma screen TV satellite receiver, and a supply of DVDs.
Throw in a laptop with internet and bunch of those old fashioned books or magazines. It will be just like your dentist or oil change place.
The super fancy version has the caravan back open down to ramp the car inside carrying the lot to the original destination while it's charging.
WarpedOne
07-20-2008, 11:22 AM
... Suppose we want to deliver 10kWh of energy to the exhausted car (for ~40 miles driving). Taking one hour at 240 V means 42 Amps. But we know 70 amps requires 17kWh for cooling, so the exhausted car will require a further 42.5 Amps for cooling.
Nah, it ain't so bad. Those 17kWh for cooling are needed if you charge for 3,5hours meaning the cooling system needs about 4kW of power to cool the battery at maximum charging rate of 53kWh / 3.5hours = 17Kw.
If you settle for "transfer" of 10kWh in 42 minutes (the roadster's max charging rate) you end up burning about 16kWh of your energy (10kWh transfered + 3kWh for cooling your battery + 3kWh for cooling recipient battery). It is not impossible, just not very practical.
Trailers are more promissing, we just need a smaller and lighter trailer-gensets than currently available ones.
Another solution might be just to tow the car to the destination, assuming it wasn't home. Remember the town hall meeting where they had fun with the idea that the regenerative braking would recharge the Roadster if you towed it rather than haul it on a flat bed truck?
So here's the scenario; You and the spouse are on your way to a the Academy Awards, or some such. But you forgot to plug in last night and run out of juice half way there. You call a tow truck operator and have it towed to about three blocks from the shindig. Now you should have just enough juice to make a grand arrival and make a great presentation out of plugging it in.
Meanwhile, the tow truck operator is stranded and baffled why towing such a little car burned so much gas.
Not exactly Carbon Neutral, but great fun.
Remember the town hall meeting where they had fun with the idea that the regenerative braking would recharge the Roadster if you towed it rather than haul it on a flat bed truck?
Remeber this? (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=27):
TEG wrote on September 27th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
... Self-recharge mode when Tesla is being pulled behind an RV.
Lots of people who like to travel with RVs like to pull a small vehicle behind them for around town excursions when they park the RV somewhere for an extended stay.
malcolm
07-21-2008, 01:48 PM
Oops.
Still a roadside 30 minute recovery recharge is a very tough challenge, since even the Tesla 15.4kW Fast Charger can only deliver a maximum of 7.7kWh in that time.
If I can get the maths right this time, 2.4kWh of that energy would have to be diverted to cooling, leaving the ESS with about 22 miles-worth of charge. (There is still some uncertainty as to whether the Roadster needs 3.5 or 4.5 hrs to fully charge from empty at the fastest rate - because of the additional energy consumption for battery cooling)
Is the ESS is designed to cope with a higher rated power supply? Are we stuck with 15.4 kW?
WarpedOne
07-21-2008, 02:10 PM
Is the ESS is designed to cope with a higher rated power supply? Are we stuck with 15.4 kW?
IIRC someone from TM mentioned that you could do a full charge in an hour of regen. To do this, ESS should be capable of recieving 50kW of "incoming" power. The charging interface is not capable of that, though.
malcolm
07-21-2008, 02:19 PM
IIRC someone from TM mentioned that you could do a full charge in an hour of regen. To do this, ESS should be capable of recieving 50kW of "incoming" power. The charging interface is not capable of that, though.
Which suggests the fastest emergency recharge system at the moment would be a flat bed truck equipped with a rolling road system. Half an hour of that and you'd be good for about 100 miles more.
tiptongrange
11-21-2008, 07:10 PM
If the Roadster were capable of towing the generator, you could just get a few kWs into the battery and then drive away. The generator could continue to charge the battery as you drive to the nearest 70 amp charge station, charge up, and then return the generator to the service depot... Not perfect, but it should work.
Or, just have them bring a spare battery pack that fits in the trunk instead of a generator. Drive away off the spare and recharge it when you recharge your car.
Tdave
11-22-2008, 11:29 AM
The most common and easiest assistance for a dead battery is the already widely available flatbed tow back home. Unless you were seriously not paying attention, you're probably less than 20 miles away.
Hopefully we won't be eligible for a frequent customer discount from the tow company. Or have trouble finding one that won't snicker every time they give you a ride home.