LED headlamps

[malcolm]

Bit of an expensive option at the moment:

Audi going to full LED lighting on the R8 for just $5,600 - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/30/audi-going-to-full-led-lighting-on-the-r8-for-just-5-600/)

Could be ideal for Roadster 2.0 and maybe Whitestar as well

[vfx]

Maybe they will put them in as a 2009 upgade in the Roadster.
Nice if they or some aftermarket Co. came up with a LED headlamp conversion kit.

[WarpedOne]

Does anyone know LED's power rating?

[SByer]

Which LEDs? Seriously, you can get up to 5W LEDs now. Lumens/W is at about 50-70 now. What's attractive for autos is more the smaller, more flexible form factor than for other lighting technologies. That, and the incredible, reliable lifetime.

[WarpedOne]

>> That, and the incredible, reliable lifetime.

I read this is only true as long as you manage to keep those LEDs cool - around 25 degrees celsius. If they "overheat" above 35 degrees their life span dramaticaly shortens from couple of years to couple of hours.

[malcolm]

Not so smart for daytime running lights, then.

[SByer]

Daytime running lights not so smart themselves ;-).

[WarpedOne]

>> Daytime running lights not so smart themselves ;-).

Daytime lightning conditions can vary a lot. Trouble is, if lights were not mandatory, a lot of people would not turn them on even when conditions are very very poor (storms, fog, ..).

Automatic sensor controlled lights would be ideal solution

[Albern]

Hey Guys,

I was intent on doing some further research and report my findings on LEDs. Without going into that for now here are my thoughts on what has been brought up thus far along with some other considerations:

- LEDs make perfect sense, especially in an EV application since it requires less energy to emit the same amount of lumens; I've even heard that LEDs can be even brighter than xenon lights
- Although LEDs are still expensive they are much cheaper than xenon lights; I'm surprised that the Roadster doesn't have them as standard since pretty much all luxury/sport vehicles have them. Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that they also use less energy than halogens.
- Personally I like daytime running lights (DRLs) as a safety feature although I've come across some complaints ranging from glare to fuel consumption. Compared to not having DRLs, those that do have them are much more visible when looking up the road. My one concern with DRLs though is that I've begun to notice that automakers are really starting to aim them so high that they cause significant glare to other motorist's rear and side view mirrors.
- I don't know if anyone has noticed but automakers seem to be switching to red rear turn indicators as oppose to orange ones. I am aware that in North America rear lights can only be white, red, and orange. To me red should be reserved for the fog/parking and break lamps, while orange is strictly for turn indicators (and white obviously for reverse). People are going to get confused when they see a flashing red light that refers to a lane change while the driver ahead intends to slow down. This becomes more apparent when I always see people who are not aware that some of their exterior lights need to be replaced and we have a situation where if they break it can initially look like they are initiating a lane change.
- Automatic headlights are a neat feature but as far as I'm concerned, if you are the type of driver who needs to be reminded of when you should turn on your lights and thus rely on that feature we have a serious problem here.

[doug]

Ferrari Italia

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2009/09/500x_Ferrari_458_Italia_headlight.jpg (http://jalopnik.com/5356742/ferrari-458-italia-live-and-in-the-flesh)

[Norbert]

Which LEDs? Seriously, you can get up to 5W LEDs now. Lumens/W is at about 50-70 now. What's attractive for autos is more the smaller, more flexible form factor than for other lighting technologies. That, and the incredible, reliable lifetime.

Now at 111 Lumens/Watt (and, as far as i can tell, it should be usable for headlights):

CREE |Cree Raises the Bar for Lighting-Class LEDs with Commercial Availability of the XLamp XP-G LED (http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1254314703656)


[Cree] announces the commercial availability of the XLamp® XP-G LED, the industry’s brightest and most efficient lighting-class LED. The XP-G LED can produce up to 367 lumens when driven at 1A, at a typical efficacy of 111 lumens per watt; making it 46 percent brighter and 64 percent more efficient than the highest-performance XR-E LED, with an 80 percent smaller footprint.

[Norbert]

Now at 111 Lumens/Watt (and, as far as i can tell, it should be usable for headlights):

CREE |Cree Raises the Bar for Lighting-Class LEDs with Commercial Availability of the XLamp XP-G LED (http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1254314703656)

And , if one uses them at 200mA instead of at 1000mA (requiring, of course, 5 times as many), they seem to deliver about 150 Lumens/Watt.

(Which, according to some unverified 2006 info, is the then maximum for xenon lamps.)

See this (though I think non-professional) test at the bottom of:
CandlePowerForums - View Single Post - White LED lumen testing (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2990597&postcount=303)

[DrComputer]

I don't quite know what is taking Tesla (and other manufacturers) so long to adopt LED headlights? My Lexus LS600hl has them and my car is now over two years old.

[TEG]

2008 Audi A4:
http://www.zcars.com.au/images/2008-audi-a4-led-headlights1.jpg

I see them on Audis all the time now.

[TEG]

Audi A5:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/2639425689_250d49b5b5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/janandersen_dk/2639425689/)

[DrComputer]

In those examples, Audi is NOT using LED's for actually headlights, just pretty accent light. Lexus is using them for actual low-beam headlights in the LS600hL.

[TEG]

I think they are a bit more than "accent lights". They seem to be the "daytime running lights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytime_running_lamp)" that are always on. Other cars tend to run the regular lights at partial brightness to satisfy that requirement.

By the way, they do also have some full brightness LED headlights.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q3/2010_audi_r8_led_headlights-tech_dept
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/features/09q3/2010_audi_r8_led_headlights-tech_dept/gallery/2010_audi_r8_5.2_v-10_fsi_quattro_led_headlight_and_daytime-running-light_photo_1/2851932-1-eng-US/image_cd_gallery.jpg

[TEG]

From 2006:
LEDs Magazine - LED headlights available on Audi R8 from late 2007 (http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/3/10/23)

...Audi says that its new Audi R8 mid-engined sports car will be the first series-production car to offer the option of ordering all the headlight functions – dipped beam, main beam, daytime running lights and indicators – as LEDs. The option will become available from the end of 2007 onwards...

[DrComputer]

Yes, the R8 does offer LED headlights as an option (and no, they were not the first, Lexus was). But the pictures above were not LED headlights.

[stopcrazypp]

From the Lexus brochure:
http://www.lexus.com/hybridbrochure/images/ls_headlights.jpg

Led Headlights
The LS 600h L will be the world’s first vehicle to be equipped with LED headlights for nighttime and low-beam use.
http://www.lexus.com/hybridbrochure/ls_600h_l.html

[vfx]

So do they have to have multiple bulbs to make enough output?

[Norbert]

So do they have to have multiple bulbs to make enough output?

For most LED's, multiple ones would be needed, including the Cree XP-G mentioned above. I'm not sure how efficient this LED is, but it seems to have more than needed with a single large LED:

SST-90 White Series PhlatLight LEDs (http://www.luminus.com/content1504) (up to 2200 Lumens)

I've been reading a few high-power-LED flashlight reviews, and those reviewing flashlights with 700 Lumens (which are usually about $150-$300) often claim that they are as bright as a car headlight. However, it might be that these cover a smaller area than a car headlight, and I wouldn't know (yet) how many Lumens a car light would really need.

[Norbert]

I've been reading a few high-power-LED flashlight reviews, and those reviewing flashlights with 700 Lumens (which are usually about $150-$300) often claim that they are as bright as a car headlight. However, it might be that these cover a smaller area than a car headlight, and I wouldn't know (yet) how many Lumens a car light would really need.

I've been reading some more, and should improve these numbers (for those who are interested, though probably some of you already know much more than this):

A halogen bulb commonly used in cars is the H7 bulb. It has about 1500 Lumens at 55 Watt. That's about 27 Lumens/Watt, much less than HID(Xenon) or LED lamps.

HID(Xenon) Lamps used in cars seem to be typically 3200 Lumens at 35 Watt, but I've also stumbled across some advertised to be 5300 Lumens at 50 Watt and even 8300 Lumens at 75 Watt.

Again, the typical value seems to be 3200 Lumens at 35 Watt, which is about 91 Lumens/Watt

So the latest generation of LED's (those which are currently becoming available commercially) appears to be better than that (or at least comparable). Considering that LEDs seem to be improving continuously, the next generation will probably clearly surpass HID lamps. Plus, LEDs appear to be much more reliable, as far as I can tell.

Back to VFX's question of how many LED bulbs are needed:

The SST-90 mentioned above has a max of 2200 Lumens (according to the manufacturer), so at least two would be required to be equal to an HID lamp in output.

However, there is also the CSM-360 (although I'm not sure whether it is already available, and whether it would be a good fit for automotive applications):

http://www.luminus.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/0/5b2bab98d54138d7a9ba350782e510bf/misc/pds_001353_rev_02__csm_360_w_product_datasheet_illumination.pdf

According to the manufacturer's data, it has (for the highest rated version) a range of 3600 Lumens to over 6000 Lumens, and at 3600 Lumens, an efficiency of over 100 Lumens/Watt.

If these numbers actually mean what they seem to, the CSM-360 LED is preferable to a typical HID bulb in probably every regard.

Now, the other choice might be to take advantage of the Cree XP-G LED's high efficiency of almost 150 Lumens/Watt at 200mA (according to the test referred to above). (It is available now.)

At 200mA, it delivers about 100 Lumens, so one would need about 35 of them. Printed circuit boards like the following (with matching optics) can be used to assemble 7 of them into one unit of 40mm diameter:

Cutter Electronics (http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut934)

So 5 of these, each with a diameter of about 2 inch, would be needed on each side of the car. I don't know if it would be worth the effort, compared to an easier-to-manufacture solution using the CSM-360 LED, but it doesn't seem impossible.

[Norbert]

Or, since the availability and price for the CSM-360 LED is unknown to me at this point, using the already shipping Cree XP-G LEDs, but just 2 bulbs, since 5 seems a lot:

So with 2 bulbs (2 PCBs, 40 mm diameter, with 7 LEDs each), running each LED at 625mA, it would be:

At this current, they have 120 Lumens/Watt, and 2 bulbs would generate about 3500 Lumens (more than the HID lamp's typical 3200 Lumens), and use 29 Watt (less than the HID lamp's typical 35 Watt). Cost: about $42 per bulb in single quantities.

[TEG]

http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/3419-led-headlights-can-extend-ev-range-by-six-miles
"LED Headlights Can Extend EV Range by Six Miles (http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/3419)"
http://www.ecogeek.org/images/stories/led-headlights.jpg

[Jaff]

They look cool too TEG!

Does anyone know if TM has ever looked at LED's to replace their "underpowered" current stock headlamps?

[vfx]

http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/3419-led-headlights-can-extend-ev-range-by-six-miles
"LED Headlights Can Extend EV Range by Six Miles (http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/3419)"]

Model S!!

[mpt]

Does anyone know if TM has ever looked at LED's to replace their "underpowered" current stock headlamps?

Much discussed on TMC; but we think EM has xenon on his car and that new headlights cost about $1/2M to design, test, approve.

[dpeilow]

There's a story on LED headlights saving 6 miles doing the rounds today:

http://venturebeat.com/2011/01/24/led-headlights-give-your-electric-car-an-extra-six-miles/


This was my response:


Umm, does Osram have an LED headlight to sell?

Let's do the math:

A typical Halogen headlight bulb is 55W. Autoblog Green said in their original story that the LED system is 28W. So LED will save 82W for the pair.

An EV uses about 300Wh/mile in real world highway driving. Therefore, you'd have to be driving for 3.6 hours to save 1 mile's worth of energy with the LEDs over the halogens. Thus, to save 6 miles' worth of energy you'd have to drive for 22 hours between charges. Not even a Tesla can do that.

The case is even more extreme with Xenon HIDs. They are typically 35W per bulb or a saving of 42W for the pair between that and LED. So now you'd have to drive for over 7 hours to save 1 mile of energy or 43 hours for the claimed 6 miles' saving.

I allow for a mile hit on range when driving the Tesla at night. That's being generous.

[TEG]

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/20/led-headlights-add-6-miles-electric-car-range/

...Over only that last 2-3 years, the efficiency of LEDs has increased to the point where LEDs use less than 25% the energy of halogen bulbs...
... a 28 watt LED ... compared to .... conventional 110 watt H7 halogen bulbs.

The "6 miles range" quote is squishy and dubious, but the technology does offer a noticeable improvement.
(And LED vs bulb longevity is way better.)

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2010/01/22/47855/led-headlights-beam-beyond-premium-cars.htm

[dpeilow]

Yeah, I'm not denying that LED isn't better, but the 6 mile range thing is way off the mark. It's yet another FUD thing that can be seized upon by the range anxiety crowd if you look at it from the reverse angle.

To be honest I'm just sick of these tech sites parroting out company press releases which can easily be checked with two lines of junior school arithmetic.

[tennis_trs]

Yeah, I'm not denying that LED isn't better, but the 6 mile range thing is way off the mark. It's yet another FUD thing that can be seized upon by the range anxiety crowd if you look at it from the reverse angle.

To be honest I'm just sick of these tech sites parroting out company press releases which can easily be checked with two lines of junior school arithmetic.

Reminds me of a good book "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences" (http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Its-Consequences/dp/0809058405/).

Even before I owned a Tesla and had a reasonable idea how much energy it took to run an EV, I'm pretty sure I would have still thought that the energy to propel a car 6 miles would be equivalent to significantly more time lighting headlights.

[cinergi]

Reminds me of a good book "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences" (http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Its-Consequences/dp/0809058405/).

Even before I owned a Tesla and had a reasonable idea how much energy it took to run an EV, I'm pretty sure I would have still thought that the energy to propel a car 6 miles would be equivalent to significantly more time lighting headlights.

Yeah I was dumbfounded how much energy it took to move an EV versus running the accessories. "Holy @#$! forty-THOUSAND watts to keep my car at 70 MPH on slight incline" (versus 130 watts for headlights). I'm a pretty geeky person but just had no concept of the power required to move and keep moving a vehicle. I can't believe I'm drawing 200KW and ~700 amps when I'm flooring it. That's an awesome amount of power.

Then you start thinking how a 56 KWh battery pack is the equivalent energy potential as ~2 gallons of gasoline ... and then thinking about the 20 gallons you're sitting on in an ICE vehicle.

Back to LED lighting -- I for one would love it. I have a friend who has one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Olight-SR90-Intimidator-Luminus-Flashlight/dp/B003CT5GOG) flashlights and it's mind-bogglingly bright. It severely outshines the headlights of any car. 2,200 lumens, 30 watts. And I believe it's a single LED component.

[Lloyd]

Try starting a turbine engine as in an airplane. I fly a Pilatus PC-12, and to start this moderately large turbine engine, we supply 28 volts and it needs 1500 amps peak and draws 600 to 800 during the remainder of the start cycle, and all from a 30 lb NiCad battery.

[dsm363]

Yeah, I'm not denying that LED isn't better, but the 6 mile range thing is way off the mark. It's yet another FUD thing that can be seized upon by the range anxiety crowd if you look at it from the reverse angle.


If I understand it correctly, adding LED headlights to the Roadster would have very minimal impact (improvement) on the range, right? I still want them mainly for longevity and for better light. And they look cool I think.

[felixtb]

do you think tesla will allow for LED headlights? or will they void the warranty there as well considering they can always claim possible interference........?! or do you think they would be fine if one decides to change the standard bulbs to LED equivalents?

/fb

[Norbert]

Like so many things being discussed here, LEDs are evolving and (last time I checked) about to surpass halogen in usability within the next few years (in so far as they haven't already)... just a matter of time. In 10 years, so many things will be different... unless we all have been deceived big time... :)

[TEG]

Infiniti Etherea concept:
http://www.4yea.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Infiniti-Etherea-Concept-2011-Lamps-View-610x432.jpg

[vfx]

OK, that is cool.2542

[bonnie1194]

OK, that is cool.2542

Rotate your owl. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBpF_Zj4OA)

[TEG]

Rotate your owl. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBpF_Zj4OA)

Major bonus points for that! :biggrin:

[dsm363]

Rotate your owl. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBpF_Zj4OA)
That's awesome. How did you even find that? Gotta love the internet.

[bonnie1194]

People just send me these things. I don't know why. It just happens.

:)

[vfx]

I notice the taillights are the same.

My tires are rotated. does that count?

[bonnie1194]

I notice the taillights are the same.

My tires are rotated. does that count?

We're counting now?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxNf2uCxd3E) Almost sounds like there will be a quiz later.

[DrComputer]

I know this is off topic (sort of), but no one as mentioned that the Model S will NOT have LED headlights. I am a bit surprised by this as Xeons are not nearly as energy efficient. I thought originally it was said that the S would have LED headlights (not just fog lights). Yet another feature my 4.5 year old Lexus has that the S will not have :(

[TEG]

Related:
LED HEADLIGHT OPTION FOR THE MODEL S | Forums | Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/led-headlight-option-model-s)
LED Headlights Give Your Electric Car An Extra Six Miles (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1054227_led-headlights-give-your-electric-car-an-extra-six-miles)

I gather that range projections and published numbers are done with headlights off...

[VolkerP]

It appears that Tesla went with halogen headlight lamps to keep the base price of $50k after tax credit. Xenon is included in the tech package (a whoppy $3750 extra). I expect LED headlights are even more expensive - or Xenon would be out of business!

[Eberhard]

LED are not really expensive. But they the high-performance-LED will cost several hundred buck, this is really much more then the few bucks of a H7 bulb. But sts the cost of regulations and approval for a new headlight whats really drives the cost to the sky.
What i want most for my Roadster are some LED for a simple corner light. But i have to upgrade to the new Xeon-headligth to get better light for the driving in sharp curves.

[TEG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_R06qx3zLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=691InwTTLfM

[dsm363]

I know Tesla isn't going to use LED headlights on the Model S but what improvement in range would they offer?

[Doug_G]

I know Tesla isn't going to use LED headlights on the Model S but what improvement in range would they offer?

I rather doubt you'd be able to tell the difference.

[tdelta1000]

It appears that Tesla went with halogen headlight lamps to keep the base price of $50k after tax credit. Xenon is included in the tech package (a whoppy $3750 extra). I expect LED headlights are even more expensive - or Xenon would be out of business!

LED Headlight bulbs or an aftermarket HID kit are relatively inexpensive options.

[WarpedOne]

I know Tesla isn't going to use LED headlights on the Model S but what improvement in range would they offer?
One Xenon headlight (HID) consumes under 40W, one LED headlight consumes around 15W, so there would be ~25 W power reduction per light. You have two - 50W power savings.

Average power in motion is around 15 kW. 50/15.000 = 0.3%.
With a "300-mile battery" LEDs would give/save you 1 (one) additional mile of range. With 160-mile battery, only half a mile.
Now consider various driving conditions where same battery pack can give you anywhere between 150 and 200 mile range. LEDs savings are hence unnoticeable.

[TEG]

Don't forget the headlights can use energy even when you are not moving. So if you leave your car parked with the headlights on for a while, you would sacrifice more range.


One Xenon headlight (HID) consumes under 40W, one LED headlight consumes around 15W, so there would be ~25 W power reduction per light. You have two - 50W power savings.

Average power in motion is around 15 kW. 50/15.000 = 0.3%.
With a "300-mile battery" LEDs would give/save you 1 (one) additional mile of range. With 160-mile battery, only half a mile.
Now consider various driving conditions where same battery pack can give you anywhere between 150 and 200 mile range. LEDs savings are hence unnoticeable.

[ElSupreme]

One Xenon headlight (HID) consumes under 40W, one LED headlight consumes around 15W, so there would be ~25 W power reduction per light. You have two - 50W power savings.

Average power in motion is around 15 kW. 50/15.000 = 0.3%.
With a "300-mile battery" LEDs would give/save you 1 (one) additional mile of range. With 160-mile battery, only half a mile.
Now consider various driving conditions where same battery pack can give you anywhere between 150 and 200 mile range. LEDs savings are hence unnoticeable.

The numbers I looked at had LED headlamps running ~50W (Audi R8), or 40W (A6). I saw that the Audi DRLs (A4) were running 15W. And HIDs run 35W low beams from the factory.


By comparison, a mere 15 watts is required to power the new Audi A4's modern LED daytime running lights,

Audi Debuts World's First LED Headlights - Audi R8 - Eurotuner Magazine
(http://www.eurotuner.com/news/eurp_0901_audi_r8_led_headlights/index.html)


use just 40 watts of electricity each

Audi A6 LED Headlights (http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Audi-A6-LED-Headlights.html)


What alternative HID wattages are out there?
35-watt is the norm & industry standard.

Image Window (http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/HID/hidfaq.php)

Right now you aren't going to see any difference between the two lights in terms of power draw. And realistically running halogens wouldn't change your driving range where you would notice, it will change your visibility range. :biggrin:

[dsm363]

One Xenon headlight (HID) consumes under 40W, one LED headlight consumes around 15W, so there would be ~25 W power reduction per light. You have two - 50W power savings.

Average power in motion is around 15 kW. 50/15.000 = 0.3%.
With a "300-mile battery" LEDs would give/save you 1 (one) additional mile of range. With 160-mile battery, only half a mile.
Now consider various driving conditions where same battery pack can give you anywhere between 150 and 200 mile range. LEDs savings are hence unnoticeable.
Thanks. That's what I was looking for. Good to know it doesn't make too much of a difference.

[Doug_G]

Don't forget the headlights can use energy even when you are not moving. So if you leave your car parked with the headlights on for a while, you would sacrifice more range.

To the tune of half a kilometer an hour.

[tdelta1000]

Here's is the latest example of LED headlights on a mass produced vehicle. The up coming Kia K9

http://www.egmcartech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2012-Kia-K9-Headlight.jpg

[TEG]

Interesting choice for a model designation...


Kia K9


http://www.theoldrobots.com/images31/K9-5.JPG

[jerry33]

But where is the nose laser on the car?

[tdelta1000]

Interesting choice for a model designation...



http://www.theoldrobots.com/images31/K9-5.JPG

:biggrin: lol

[vfx]

Car's a dog!

Soon to be seen chasing E types on a street near you.

[NigelM]

My dog used to chase the neighbor in his car....we had to start hiding the keys.....

[100thMonkey]

I am surprised LED headlamps are not at least an option for the S. LED technology has come a long way in terms of light rendering, it's the future of lighting. If the S is the future for the automotive world why not include state of the art headlamps? I'd pay extra for an LED option, LED's are eco swanky, substantially more efficient and durable. I have enjoyed having them on the Leaf and am gradually upgrading my household lighting to LED. All the street lights in our neighborhood have been converted to LED. To me, LED has become a symbol of forward thinking, and it feels a little odd to take a step backward in that regard when going from the Leaf to the S.

[TEG]

Something found on a Youtube "LED headlights" search:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gQ7tjo8LPE

[brianman]

@TEG - Is that a deer @ 1:46?
7752

[TEG]

Yeah, I thought so too, until I zoomed in:
7759

[brianman]

Haha. Nice "enhance".

[jkirkebo]

I am surprised LED headlamps are not at least an option for the S. LED technology has come a long way in terms of light rendering, it's the future of lighting. If the S is the future for the automotive world why not include state of the art headlamps? I'd pay extra for an LED option, LED's are eco swanky, substantially more efficient and durable. I have enjoyed having them on the Leaf and am gradually upgrading my household lighting to LED. All the street lights in our neighborhood have been converted to LED. To me, LED has become a symbol of forward thinking, and it feels a little odd to take a step backward in that regard when going from the Leaf to the S.

LEDs only work for low beams at this point. You can't use xenons for high beams only (they light up too slow for flashing your lights at someone) so with LEDs you will get halogen high beams like the Leaf. No good, I'd rather have xenons for both. Also xenons take less headlamp real estate than LED+halogens as it's a single fixture vs. two separate ones. Switching xenons between low and high beams is done by shutter/focus change, not lighting a different bulb.

[TEG]

I bet LED high beams will be possible soon.

[charliestyr]

I'm pretty sure LED high beams have been possible for a while. The Audi full LED headlamps include the high beam.. A8 for example for sure... and I presume the R8, A6, A7 etc.

A8 LED Headlights Audi of America (http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/models/a8/explore/a8_led_headlights.html)

(and that's been around for a couple of years now)

[100thMonkey]

The Leaf is a combo bulb, I'm fine with that! The high beams hardly ever get used. Imagine if you had 296 miles to go in to the next charging station driving I5 from Ashland OR to Sacramento CA, and you could only go say 294 miles with xenon bulbs vs 298 with LED ... the math is a wild ass guess but you get my point. Why not have the most efficient and state of the art option for those of us who plan on stretching the limits and who otherwise simply think it's cool?


LEDs only work for low beams at this point. You can't use xenons for high beams only (they light up too slow for flashing your lights at someone) so with LEDs you will get halogen high beams like the Leaf. No good, I'd rather have xenons for both. Also xenons take less headlamp real estate than LED+halogens as it's a single fixture vs. two separate ones. Switching xenons between low and high beams is done by shutter/focus change, not lighting a different bulb.

[TEG]

By the way, I replaced the halogen high beam bulbs in my LEAF with LEDs. They aren't as bright as the halogens (probably using 7W instead of 35W), but they act more like a flood light which is the way I tend to use high beams (to read street signs above the low beams when driving slowly to find something.) Also they work fine as a quick flash to tell someone that they left their brights on.

[ElSupreme]

The Leaf is a combo bulb, I'm fine with that! The high beams hardly ever get used. Imagine if you had 296 miles to go in to the next charging station driving I5 from Ashland OR to Sacramento CA, and you could only go say 294 miles with xenon bulbs vs 298 with LED ... the math is a wild ass guess but you get my point. Why not have the most efficient and state of the art option for those of us who plan on stretching the limits and who otherwise simply think it's cool?


The numbers I looked at had LED headlamps running ~50W (Audi R8), or 40W (A6). I saw that the Audi DRLs (A4) were running 15W. And HIDs run 35W low beams from the factory.

Audi Debuts World's First LED Headlights - Audi R8 - Eurotuner Magazine (http://www.eurotuner.com/news/eurp_0901_audi_r8_led_headlights/index.html)
Audi A6 LED Headlights (http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Audi-A6-LED-Headlights.html)


Right now you aren't going to see any difference between the two lights in terms of power draw. And realistically running halogens wouldn't change your driving range where you would notice, it will change your visibility range. :biggrin:


Your power draw from lights isn't going to change your range. It would be on the order of a few hundred feet not even close to miles. And LEDs and HIDs (Xenon) use about the same amount of power, HIDs actually use a little less currently. The advantages lie in the amount of light (HIDs win) and how well the light is projected and the color of the light produced (LED win).

[jerry33]

The other difference should be life. HIDs only last 2500 to 3000 hours when used optimally (and far less if they aren't used optimally) and then it's $50+ per bulb. LEDs should last a very long time.

[WarpedOne]

LEDs should last a very long time.
No.
LEDs by themselves yes but supporting electronics will fail much sooner, especialy in evironment with temperature variations.

[jerry33]

No.
LEDs by themselves yes but supporting electronics will fail much sooner, especialy in evironment with temperature variations.

The LED brake lights in the Prius have lasted nine years so far and I can't recall a post to the group saying that their LED lights have died. The HID headlights lasted five and there are many posts saying that they lasted a far shorter time (not counting the bad bunch of bulbs Toyota shipped in 2006).

[jkirkebo]

The Leaf is a combo bulb, I'm fine with that! The high beams hardly ever get used.

Mine gets a lot of use. So much that I replaced the crappy H9 halogens with a 55W xenon kit. Now the high beams are excellent, but I can't flash them any more. But seeing well in the dark is much more important for me anyway.

[jkirkebo]

I'm pretty sure LED high beams have been possible for a while. The Audi full LED headlamps include the high beam.. A8 for example for sure... and I presume the R8, A6, A7 etc.

A8 LED Headlights Audi of America (http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/models/a8/explore/a8_led_headlights.html)

(and that's been around for a couple of years now)

Ok, I wasn't aware of those. Does anybody know how they compare to 35W and 55W xenons ? Lumen output, projection quality etc. ?

[100thMonkey]

If you could point me to the source of this conclusion I'd appreciate it as it goes against all of my experience with LED's. come to think of it, I have yet to have an LED fail on me.


No.
LEDs by themselves yes but supporting electronics will fail much sooner, especialy in evironment with temperature variations.

[cinergi]

General comment: There's a BIG difference between high-intensity (headlamp) LEDs and taillight LED's WRT power consumption, heat, longevity, etc. Comparing headlamps to taillights isn't apples-to-apples.

[jerry33]

General comment: There's a BIG difference between high-intensity (headlamp) LEDs and taillight LED's WRT power consumption, heat, longevity, etc. Comparing headlamps to taillights isn't apples-to-apples.

Agreed, but the electronics wouldn't be all that different (which is what was said to fail due to temperature fluctuations and vibration).

[TEG]

My LEAF with aftermarket LED high beam and LED running light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5P6BSwF1vA

[WarpedOne]

If you could point me to the source of this conclusion I'd appreciate it as it goes against all of my experience with LED's. come to think of it, I have yet to have an LED fail on me.

Its not just one source, there are many. A few:

(http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2010-audi-r8-led-headlights)Controlling LED lighting systems: introducing the LED driver (http://ledsmagazine.com/features/1/12/6)

LEDs are occasionally and incorrectly believed to generate little or no heat,

Led driver reliability (http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html)

Unfortunately an LED system has many components that need to work together in order to enable light to be emitted from the LED, these include:
1. The LED emitter
2. An LED driver (not required if using AC LEDs)
3. Mechanical and thermal management components for long operation

2010 Audi R8 LED Headlights
(http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2010-audi-r8-led-headlights)
In the R8, the LEDs are clustered—14 for the low beam, eight for the high beam—and cooled by fans to keep internal temps below a diode-killing 300 degrees F. The fans also circulate warm air to defrost the lenses on cold mornings.

I have little faith in longevity of fan-cooled electronics.
Only time will tell but any new application of technology has hidden problems that arise only after some time in the field.

[TEG]

Oh ye of little faith.
Yes, fans can be a weak point of air cooled electronics, but a good quality electric fan with proper air filtration can last a good long time.
I think you might be surprised how many things these days have cooling fans inside.
You don't want a motor with brushes and cheap bearings, and we end up with manufacturers cheaping out sometimes, but if they do it right it can be good.
Also, it may be possible to design better passive cooling with better heat conduction and heat sinks and do away with the fans.

[100thMonkey]

thanks for the references. I wonder how Nissan has dealt with the heat issue on the lamps. I have not looked into it, but I have been going on the assumption that if Nissan can pull off LED headlamps, surely Tesla can.



Its not just one source, there are many. A few:

(http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2010-audi-r8-led-headlights)Controlling LED lighting systems: introducing the LED driver (http://ledsmagazine.com/features/1/12/6)


Led driver reliability (http://www.mondoarc.com/technology/LED/228719/driving_responsibly.html)


2010 Audi R8 LED Headlights
(http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2010-audi-r8-led-headlights)

I have little faith in longevity of fan-cooled electronics.
Only time will tell but any new application of technology has hidden problems that arise only after some time in the field.

[WarpedOne]

I wonder how Nissan has dealt with the heat issue on the lamps. I have not looked into it, but I have been going on the assumption that if Nissan can pull off LED headlamps, surely Tesla can.
I really do not know and I am sure it *could* be done in a way to work for 20 years for almost everybody. But it is not simple, not straightforward and not cheap.

[Nysenn]

Maybe they will put them in as a 2009 upgade in the Roadster.
Nice if they or some aftermarket Co. came up with a LED headlamp conversion kit.

I am looking for some reliable source of these led lights. Can you provide that?

[jerry33]

I am looking for some reliable source of these led lights. Can you provide that?

Can't provide that, but the problem with add-on LEDs is the same problem that add-on HIDs have: The reflectors aren't correct for that kind of bulb. So unless the after-market company also provides a replacement reflector, you're being very discourteous to other drivers.

[TEG]

Nissan LEAF LED headlight info:

Production technology of LED headlamps that has both the quality and production costs... Ichikoh Industries, Ltd. | Responsejp (Eco-car electric ) (http://en.responsejp.com/article/2011/05/11/156101.html)
Production technology of LED headlamps that has both the quality and production costs... Ichikoh Industries, Ltd. | Responsejp (Eco-car electric ) (http://en.responsejp.com/article/img/2011/05/11/156101/4282.html)

http://jpx.responsejp.com/jpx/images/2011/05/11/156101_12.jpg
http://jpx.responsejp.com/jpx/images/2011/05/11/156101_4.jpg
http://jpx.responsejp.com/jpx/images/2011/05/11/156101_5.jpg

Just uses a heatsink as far as I can tell...

[smorgasbord]

Can't provide that, but the problem with add-on LEDs is the same problem that add-on HIDs have: The reflectors aren't correct for that kind of bulb. So unless the after-market company also provides a replacement reflector, you're being very discourteous to other drivers.

I'm sure that's true for LEDs, but HIDs have overcome that situation. Take a look at the "Xenon HID" thread here on TMC - the aftermarket HIDs are constructed to not only fit in the original bulb space and with the same mounting, but place the bulb in the right position such the cut-off remains functional.

As for LEDs, here's Audi showing off: http://www.audileds.com/