Tesla Unionization

[SwedishAdvocate]

Yes we do and you know too since you also frequent the Swedish Tesla club forum where multiple witnesses and actual local employees have commented on this. I am beginning to feel you are not discussing this in an honest way.

Do we?...

Could you point me to when consensus was reached about this in the Swedish forum? Last I checked iAkita and roffe_s did not agree with what you are writing here...

But sure... I'll concede that I could have missed something. The thread on the Swedish forum is also basically one giant Union bashing fest, and ~7500 posts long at that, so I have not read all of it.

 

[CitizenKane]

Agreed!

The union appears to have surrendered the option to be the "good guy" and committed their efforts toward winning at all costs. Thus abandoning any commitment for rational, reasonable discourse.

Now, the costs may be more than they bargained for should they lose face in the process. Being a bully never imparts a wholesome public image.

I see two losers in this conflict, however it ends.

 

[UkNorthampton]

That is a good question. The answer is that we don't know.

Do you think it's fair to say that only a small number of Tesla workers have taken part in strikes?
Do you think the total number is lower now?
Any guesses on numbers, start, peak and now?
Do you think or have you heard anything that persuades you that Tesla or the union (including supporters) are/have been more threatening to Tesla workers?

I ask this as my impression from the media I consume is that less than 10 Tesla workers were on strike and fear of union reprisals are real for some people.

 

[PriOkkie]

Yes we do and you know too since you also frequent the Swedish Tesla club forum where multiple witnesses and actual local employees have commented on this. I am beginning to feel you are not discussing this in an honest way.

Actually, it is still somewhere between "we don't know" and a lot of "trust me bro"s.

If @SwedishAdvocate was dishonest, he would have confirmed the "they are afraid" version. We actually don't know for sure unless we have a way of verifying the identity of the people saying they know. Oh, and put them on a lie detector for good measure.

Personally I tend to believe the "Trust me Bro"s, but that may be my bias speaking.

 

[Tronguy]

Actually, it is still somewhere between "we don't know" and a lot of "trust me bro"s.

If @SwedishAdvocate was dishonest, he would have confirmed the "they are afraid" version. We actually don't know for sure unless we have a way of verifying the identity of the people saying they know. Oh, and put them on a lie detector for good measure.

Dunno about @SwedishAdvocate, but on this thread there's been links to news reports on the numbers, written by multiple reporters and multiple news organizations. In a situation like this, the.. correct or not correct reporting by a single individual does not have to be definitive.

It's what the US Courts call the, "preponderance of the evidence". I might not believe one person.. but there's been on the order of, what, six or seven? That would have to be colluding, madly, to claim that the total numbers are less than 100 strikers? I've seen reports on this thread of numbers as low as ten and as high as 46, if memory serves, with several hundred workers not on strike and working as per normal.

 

[CitizenKane]

Actually, it is still somewhere between "we don't know" and a lot of "trust me bro"s.

If @SwedishAdvocate was dishonest, he would have confirmed the "they are afraid" version. We actually don't know for sure unless we have a way of verifying the identity of the people saying they know. Oh, and put them on a lie detector for good measure.

Personally I tend to believe the "Trust me Bro"s, but that may be my bias speaking.

We have multiple interviews in Swedish media of actual Tesla employees saying that they are not afraid of Tesla, that they are staying there because they like the company, its vision and their working conditions. We also know that the labor market for mechanics in Sweden is very strong so there is no need whatsoever to stay working for an employer that you fear or isn't happy about. You have people like me who have chatted with the employees at the Tesla shops without any specific agenda where it was very clear to me they were not a bit afraid but quite open about how they felt about the whole thing. We have employees who under anonymity have been interviewed about their fear for the union and their quite aggressive communication. And if you know about Swedish culture, it is quite uncommon to be actually afraid of your employer. That's normally only the case of shady small businesses that employ immigrants without citizenship. Sweden has a very strong social security so less need to be afraid if you are part of the system.

So I'd say its much more than "trust me bro".

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Do you think it's fair to say that only a small number of Tesla workers have taken part in strikes?

There was a an article in the Union's paper that claimed that a majority of Swedish mechanics at Tesla were on strike. I posted that article in this thread. I tried searching for it now – but can't find the page in this thread. But it is there if someone else wants to find it.

Do you think the total number is lower now?

I don't know. I haven't followed EVERYTHING about this strike. After that third party shop Werksta stopped working on Tesla's cars Tesla has advertised that they are hiring a lot of people in Sweden. I don't know how that is working out for them.

Any guesses on numbers, start, peak and now?

Se above.

Do you think or have you heard anything that persuades you that Tesla or the union (including supporters) are/have been more threatening to Tesla workers?

There have been at least two anonymous sources in Swedish Public Service media that has claimed that someone in a management role at Tesla Sweden has threatened with consequences if those two were to go on strike.

I remember seeing one person claiming to have seen SMS text messages with some kind of threats from 'someone within the union'. Those text messages were never presented for verification.

EDIT: Remembered that the Unions own paper also interview one anonymous worker that said he was afraid of the union. Could it be the same guy as the one who previously referred to the text messages? I don't know.

So how do we verify any of this? You tell me.

I ask this as my impression from the media I consume is that less than 10 Tesla workers were on strike and fear of union reprisals are real for some people.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Dunno about @SwedishAdvocate, but on this thread there's been links to news reports on the numbers, written by multiple reporters and multiple news organizations. In a situation like this, the.. correct or not correct reporting by a single individual does not have to be definitive.

It's what the US Courts call the, "preponderance of the evidence". I might not believe one person.. but there's been on the order of, what, six or seven? That would have to be colluding, madly, to claim that the total numbers are less than 100 strikers? I've seen reports on this thread of numbers as low as ten and as high as 46, if memory serves, with several hundred workers not on strike and working as per normal.

As I remember it there were ~130 mechanics in total at Tesla in Sweden at the beginning of the strike. Where does the "several hundred workers not on strike" come from?

 

[MP3Mike]

There have been at least two anonymous sources in Swedish Public Service media that has claimed that someone in a management role at Tesla Sweden has threatened with consequences if those two were to go on strike.

Were they reported to actually be "threatening" or were they just letting the people know that if they are on strike they may no longer qualify for the stock option grants? (It is always good to be informed/aware of the consequences of your actions.)

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

We have multiple interviews in Swedish media of actual Tesla employees saying that they are not afraid of Tesla, that they are staying there because they like the company, its vision and their working conditions. [...

I remember two that hasn't been anonymous. One is the Social Democrat/feminist on strike that was interviewed in Swedish Public Service TV. It was posted about him in this thread. With ridicule of course...

And there was one more non-anonymous that was also on strike. In an article in DN i think.

Has there been any others?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Were they reported to actually be "threatening" or were they just letting the people know that if they are on strike they may no longer qualify for the stock option grants? (It is always good to be informed/aware of the consequences of your actions.)

I just tried finding this segment on the Swedish Public Service TV website, but it seems it's no longer publicly available for copyright reasons... This is unfortunately a problem... Proving stuff like this now months after, either takes a lot of time or requires access to various media platforms own digital archives...

 

[Tiger]

I see two losers in this conflict, however it ends.

That's what wars do, if you count the humane losses and not some land grabbing goals.

 

[UkNorthampton]

I just tried finding this segment on the Swedish Public Service website, but it seems it's no longer publicly available for copyright reasons... This is unfortunately a problem... Proving stuff like this now months after, either takes a lot of time or requires access to various media platforms own digital archives...

I sometimes post the tweet contents, transcript or a summary. It's like politicians and their lost phones and whatsapp messages.

You also get media companies editing headlines and content multiple times, putting the corrected version behind a paywall.

Historians should have something to REALLY argue about.

 

[2daMoon]

There was a an article in the Union's paper that claimed that a majority of Swedish Mechanics were on strike. I posted that article in this thread. I tried searching for it now – but can't find the page in this thread. But it is there if someone else wants to find it.

When I first saw that post the question I would like to have been quickly addressed would be defining of the term "Swedish Mechanics" for context.

If this statement came from the union it may only be in the context of union-member Swedish mechanics. Taken in such context the statement would mean that "the majority of union mechanics at Tesla Sweden were on strike." Which makes perfect sense, but doesn't make much of a headline.

Leave out the qualifier that this statement was only about union member mechanics and it appears to have a greater impact than reality would support.

It seems unreasonable, if not absurd, that the majority of all Tesla Sweden mechanics were ever on strike. Particularly after seeing Tesla excel to new record deliveries in Sweden month after month during the strike.

It appears to have been someone attempting to sensationalize the comment for maximum effect while avoiding any attempt at being factual.

Take it one step further in that context and the question arises;

Why only the majority of union-mechanics at Tesla Sweden and not all of them?
​

As this would indicate that not even all of the union mechanics were supportive of the strike. Which was in fact supported in the statement from the union about the Tesla Sweden union members who were ousted from the union for not supporting the strike.

Once taken in context this paints that original statement in an entirely new light. It is highly unlikely that the majority of Tesla Sweden Mechanics were ever on strike.

 

[SwTslaGrl]

I think it's unfortunate this strike has affected people's employments. I think it would have been abetter approach for IF Metall to politically trying to change the voluntary collective agreement into mandatory by law for companies with over 50 employees. They have done so many times over the last 100 years on for example working conditions (now a government body), working hours (in law now), insurance and pensions etc.

 

[SO16]

I think it's unfortunate this strike has affected people's employments. I think it would have been abetter approach for IF Metall to politically trying to change the voluntary collective agreement into mandatory by law for companies with over 50 employees. They have done so many times over the last 100 years on for example working conditions (now a government body), working hours (in law now), insurance and pensions etc.

Yes. This would have been the way to go for IF metal. Change the law if it is so important to the population. Don’t simply penalize companies for following the law and not joining the union.

 

[2daMoon]

I think it's unfortunate this strike has affected people's employments. I think it would have been abetter approach for IF Metall to politically trying to change the voluntary collective agreement into mandatory by law for companies with over 50 employees. They have done so many times over the last 100 years on for example working conditions (now a government body), working hours (in law now), insurance and pensions etc.

There is something to consider about mandating a collective agreement in law. Such an agreement is a contract, and the very nature of a contract is that the parties are entering into it freely. In the US Constitution the right to contract is specifically protected from being impaired through the actions of government. Sweden may be similar in their law-making.

When I read what you wrote I interpreted it as Swedish unions politically working to assure statutes support the tenets that collective agreements are designed to support. Which would have offered a well-reasoned outcome that was balanced and fair. (see @Zuikkis post below)

I would also suspect that had this avenue been pursued through legislation some of the preferred levers over employers that the union require in their collective agreements may have risked being forfeited along the way to statutory approval.

Edit: To add:

If doing so takes away the union management's power and influence over dues, internal salary, and how and where the union funds are spent (i.e.: legislated oversight to avoid two year paid leave for a member who didn't actually study law as expected) it might not be seen as beneficial if management's perspective is swayed in such a direction. ...mutters something about absolute power corrupts absolutely

 

[Zuikkis]

I think it's unfortunate this strike has affected people's employments. I think it would have been abetter approach for IF Metall to politically trying to change the voluntary collective agreement into mandatory by law for companies with over 50 employees

This is the way here in Finland. Unions still negotiate collective agreements, between employer unions and employee unions. All companies then are required to follow the agreement. So even Tesla has collective agreement here.

But, there isn't any drawback for Tesla. No union members required in Tesla board, no membership fees etc. Just need to follow the agreement about minimum pay, paid holidays, sick days etc.

Companies still can be union active, which then allows them to take part in union negotiations and possibly make a better deal.. but it's not necessary and usually no one bothers.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

There was a an article in the Union's paper that claimed that a majority of Swedish mechanics at Tesla were on strike. I posted that article in this thread. I tried searching for it now – but can't find the page in this thread. But it is there if someone else wants to find it. [...

When I first saw that post the question I would like to have been quickly addressed would be defining of the term "Swedish Mechanics" for context. [...

The article in the Union's paper claimed that a majority of Swedish mechanics at Tesla Sweden were on strike.

 

[2daMoon]

The article in the Union's paper claimed that a majority of Swedish mechanics at Tesla were on strike.

Thanks, this supports the likelihood the union was only referencing their member mechanics at Tesla.

The majority of 13 would be a number between 7 and 12 mechanics, wouldn't it?

I can see how writing "the majority" would look better in print than saying...

"Less than ten percent of the 130 mechanics working at Tesla, and fewer than all of the Union mechanics, were on strike"

But, yeah, saying it the way they wrote in the paper is really saying the same thing, isn't it?